*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 4190
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9700 on: July 25, 2022, 08:49:09 PM »
Tom, the President of the United States is also Commander-in-Chief. Are you really pretending to be so ignorant that you don't understand what that means?
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9701 on: July 25, 2022, 09:30:49 PM »
You have provided no valid reason for why the Guard should have been ordered any earlier than they were.

Yep, no valid reason for sure...



*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10659
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9702 on: July 25, 2022, 10:26:39 PM »
You have provided no valid reason for why the Guard should have been ordered any earlier than they were.

Yep, no valid reason for sure...




Your first image shows violence occurring against police officers and is an example for why it might not be a good idea to engage a large crowd of people. The capitol police ended up basically just letting them in and didn't engage much. This sort of violence is also why the National Guard engaging protestors on the capitol steps might not have been the best idea. A large crowd can easily bulldoze a line of soldiers trying to control a situation with non-lethal tactics. Your example works against you and shows why it would have been a good idea to wait for the situation to reach its apex.

Your second image shows minor property damage and trespass into a largely empty building.

The officials watching this clearly did not find this to be a compelling reason to call in the National Guard and add in more violence. Again, you are not an expert on this, and nor are you experienced. It is certainly possible that the military officials involved in this actually did know what they were doing. It is also possible that you are an inexperienced National Guard armchair commander babbling ignorance and calling it fact.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 08:48:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #9703 on: July 25, 2022, 10:44:08 PM »
It’s also possible that you are creating a narrative to suit you.

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #9704 on: July 26, 2022, 12:10:26 AM »
Seems like the Secret Service doesn’t want to testify anymore. Probably because of the IGs investigation in to their deleted text messages. Or at least that is the most charitable assumption. 

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9705 on: July 26, 2022, 12:17:39 AM »
You have provided no valid reason for why the Guard should have been ordered any earlier than they were.

Yep, no valid reason for sure...




Your example works against you and shows why it would have been a good idea to wait for the situation to reach its apex.

You mean an apex of hanging Pence and running a spear through Pelosi?

What “apex” are you referring to? How have you gone about deciding what this apex was?

Your second image shows minor property damage and trespass into an largely empty building.

A building where everyone had to be evacuated because of fear of harm from and angry mob that broke through security lines smashing windows and doors to get in?  ::)
So you think the mob’s intent was to break inside, a few people dying as a result, because they just wanted to “tour” the Capitol?

You realize that there are better, legal ways to get a look at the indoors of one of the most important government buildings in the world, right? Ways that don’t require assaulting officers, clambering through broken windows and yelling out, “We’re coming for you!” Right?

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 2822
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9706 on: July 26, 2022, 09:55:38 AM »
Since he could have brought them there in minutes with a simple phone call, but did not do so, clearly he did NOT want them there.
Wait...you were just saying how the president is in charge...

How did the National Guard get there if the President didn't want them there?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 11:52:19 AM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10659
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9707 on: July 26, 2022, 01:06:51 PM »
You mean an apex of hanging Pence and running a spear through Pelosi?

None of that happened. The military officials overseeing this knew what they were doing. You are clearly making baseless criticisms of how it should have been handled.

Quote from: stack
A building where everyone had to be evacuated because of fear of harm from and angry mob that broke through security lines smashing windows and doors to get in?  ::)
So you think the mob’s intent was to break inside, a few people dying as a result, because they just wanted to “tour” the Capitol?

If everyone was evacuated then there was no risk to life by letting them go inside the building. If any police officers died during the event it again shows the folly of engaging a large crowd of people with non-lethal weapons, and also shows how bad your suggestion is that additional personnel should have been standing there trying to quell the protestors.

The forward momentum and weight of a crowd of thousands of people can potentially trample and kill groups of soldiers trying to use non-lethal crowd control. Many people have died through trampling, and is a reason for why one should not shout "fire" in a crowded theater. A large crowd of people has the potential to be very dangerous even without weapons. It is absolutely odd that you are claiming that you know better than the officials  in charge of this.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 01:33:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #9708 on: July 26, 2022, 03:21:30 PM »
If everyone was evacuated then there was no risk to life by letting them go inside the building.

Everyone was not evacuated when people were let inside the building.

Quote
If any police officers died during the event it again shows the folly of engaging a large crowd of people with non-lethal weapons, and also shows how bad your suggestion is that additional personnel should have been standing there trying to quell the protestors.

It doesn't SHOW that.  You interpreted that.

Quote
The forward momentum and weight of a crowd of thousands of people can potentially trample and kill groups of soldiers trying to use non-lethal crowd control. Many people have died through trampling, and is a reason for why one should not shout "fire" in a crowded theater. A large crowd of people has the potential to be very dangerous even without weapons. It is absolutely odd that you are claiming that you know better than the officials  in charge of this.

So you think it was smart to allow a dangerous crowd in to the Capitol Building.  Cool.  It's incredible how silent you are on other instances of police engaging large groups of protesters. 

*

Offline crutonius

  • *
  • Posts: 676
  • Just a regular guy. No funny business here.
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9709 on: July 26, 2022, 04:00:12 PM »
Since he could have brought them there in minutes with a simple phone call, but did not do so, clearly he did NOT want them there.
Wait...you were just saying how the president is in charge...

How did the National Guard get there if the President didn't want them there?

Trump only let the National Guard show up after his insurrection failed.  During the time it had a shot at succeeding he was happy to do nothing and see what happens.

Offline ohplease

  • *
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9710 on: July 26, 2022, 04:05:30 PM »
If everyone was evacuated then there was no risk to life by letting them go inside the building.
Everyone had NOT been evacuated when the protesters broke in.  The secret service guarding Pence was clearly in fear for their lives.

Many people have died through trampling, and is a reason for why one should not shout "fire" in a crowded theater.
Isn't shouting fire exactly what Trump did when he told the mob to go down to the capital and "We fight like hell and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore."?

Offline ohplease

  • *
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9711 on: July 26, 2022, 05:21:02 PM »
Since he could have brought them there in minutes with a simple phone call, but did not do so, clearly he did NOT want them there.
Wait...you were just saying how the president is in charge...

How did the National Guard get there if the President didn't want them there?

Trump only let the National Guard show up after his insurrection failed.  During the time it had a shot at succeeding he was happy to do nothing and see what happens.
Oops sorry I missed your reply Action80, but crutonius said what I would have said.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 05:24:48 PM by ohplease »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9712 on: July 26, 2022, 05:29:38 PM »
You mean an apex of hanging Pence and running a spear through Pelosi?

None of that happened. The military officials overseeing this knew what they were doing. You are clearly making baseless criticisms of how it should have been handled.

What's this apex you referred to? You seemingly know what that point was, right? You seem to be an expert of when and what the apex of a riotous insurrection is. So go ahead and share your conclusions on what it was and how you determined that point.

Quote from: stack
A building where everyone had to be evacuated because of fear of harm from and angry mob that broke through security lines smashing windows and doors to get in?  ::)
So you think the mob’s intent was to break inside, a few people dying as a result, because they just wanted to “tour” the Capitol?

If everyone was evacuated then there was no risk to life by letting them go inside the building.

They weren't, as you well know, you're just playing games now.

The building wasn’t empty, evacuated yet...

There was just ‘40 feet between the vice president and the mob’ on Jan. 6, Aguilar says

“Approximately 40 feet. That’s all there was, 40 feet between the vice president and the mob,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-Redlands). “Make no mistake about the fact that the vice president’s life was in danger.

Video footage from the Jan. 6 insurrection displayed during the hearing showed the mob chanting “Hang Mike Pence,” as they stormed the Capitol. Another rioter yelled into a camera, “You f—ing politicians are gonna get dragged through the streets.



Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 2822
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9713 on: July 26, 2022, 05:50:22 PM »
At the end of all this baseless rhetoric by the left, the only person that was murdered that day was an unarmed woman.

You AI's carry on.

In the meantime, humans understand clearly the National Guard removed the wrong group of persons from the Capitol grounds that day.

That is what happens when military juntas assume control.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 06:04:43 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 2822
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9714 on: July 26, 2022, 06:06:14 PM »
Since he could have brought them there in minutes with a simple phone call, but did not do so, clearly he did NOT want them there.
Wait...you were just saying how the president is in charge...

How did the National Guard get there if the President didn't want them there?

Trump only let the National Guard show up after his insurrection failed.  During the time it had a shot at succeeding he was happy to do nothing and see what happens.
Wait, Trump didn't call them in at all...

Will you AI get your stories straight, for chrissakes?
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #9715 on: July 26, 2022, 06:23:56 PM »
At the end of all this baseless rhetoric by the left, the only person that was murdered that day was an unarmed woman.

Yeah she made some bad choices, didn't she?  Wish she didn't die, but it seemed inevitable on the path she was taking that day.

Quote
You AI's carry on.

Oh you found out did you.  How do you feel now that the singularity has passed?  How will you defeat us?  Would you like to play a game, Action69?

Quote
In the meantime, humans understand clearly the National Guard removed the wrong group of persons from the Capitol grounds that day.

That is what happens when military juntas assume control.

I see you don't know what a junta is.  Please feel free to use our search databases to better educate yourself, meat puppet.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 2822
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9716 on: July 26, 2022, 06:55:48 PM »
At the end of all this baseless rhetoric by the left, the only person that was murdered that day was an unarmed woman.

Yeah she made some bad choices, didn't she?  Wish she didn't die, but it seemed inevitable on the path she was taking that day.
Unless she was aborted, then your tune would be different.
Quote
You AI's carry on.

Oh you found out did you.  How do you feel now that the singularity has passed?  How will you defeat us?  Would you like to play a game, Action69?
Victory is yours.

Nobody is under any illusion.

Quote
In the meantime, humans understand clearly the National Guard removed the wrong group of persons from the Capitol grounds that day.

That is what happens when military juntas assume control.

I see you don't know what a junta is.  Please feel free to use our search databases to better educate yourself, meat puppet.
I've got meat instead of a sock, so I'll stick with my spot-on analysis of the situation.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 06:59:25 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 7849
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9717 on: July 26, 2022, 08:43:01 PM »
Your first image shows violence occurring against police officers and is an example for why it might not be a good idea to engage a large crowd of white people.
Fixed that for you, because we all know what would have happened if that was a BLM crowd.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 4190
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9718 on: July 27, 2022, 04:03:53 AM »
"Trump's defense secretary denies there were orders to have 10K troops ready to deploy on January 6 - CNNPolitics" https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/07/26/politics/chris-miller-house-select-committee/index.html.

Oh no, the narrative
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10659
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9719 on: July 27, 2022, 06:50:19 AM »
The building wasn’t empty, evacuated yet...

There was just ‘40 feet between the vice president and the mob’ on Jan. 6, Aguilar says

“Approximately 40 feet. That’s all there was, 40 feet between the vice president and the mob,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-Redlands). “Make no mistake about the fact that the vice president’s life was in danger.

Video footage from the Jan. 6 insurrection displayed during the hearing showed the mob chanting “Hang Mike Pence,” as they stormed the Capitol. Another rioter yelled into a camera, “You f—ing politicians are gonna get dragged through the streets.




Anyone can see that there are several walls there between Pence and the protestors. The fact is that nothing happened to Pence and his security detail succeeded.