*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9720 on: July 27, 2022, 06:50:55 AM »
"Trump's defense secretary denies there were orders to have 10K troops ready to deploy on January 6 - CNNPolitics" https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/07/26/politics/chris-miller-house-select-committee/index.html.

Oh no, the narrative

Where does Trump claim that he ordered Mark Miller to deploy 10,000 troops?

Trump said that he gave that number to the Capitol to consider:

    “I requested … I definitely gave the number of 10,000 National Guardsmen, and said I think you should have 10,000 of the National Guard ready. They took that number. From what I understand, they gave it to the people at the Capitol, which is controlled by Pelosi. And I heard they rejected it because they didn’t think it would look good. So, you know, that was a big mistake.”

This message to the Capitol does not involve Mark Miller, and nor is it an order.

In his conversation with Mark Miller that he indicated that he wanted sufficient National Guard to be at the protest and delegated their use to him:

This passage from the Inspector General's DOD Review contradicts the fundamental accusations of the January 6 investigation and Trump's role in the purported 'insurrection'. In the review it indicates that Trump wanted sufficient numbers of National Guard or Soldiers at the protest to make sure it was a safe event:

https://justthenews.com/sites/default/files/2022-07/DODIG-2022-039%20V2%20508.pdf

From p.31 -




An article from NBC 15 News affirms that Trump did indeed offer the National Guard to the Capitol:

https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/trump-admin-was-ready-to-deploy-national-guard-on-jan-6-capitol-police-timeline-shows-january-donald

    "WASHINGTON (TND) — A Capitol Police timeline of the days and weeks surrounding Jan. 6 shows former President Donald Trump’s Department of Defense (DOD) offered the National Guard’s assistance in the days leading up to the violent attack on the U.S. Capitol, validating claims from Trump administration officials that were said to be false by liberal fact-checkers.

    ...

    According to the timeline, a DOD official reached out to Capitol Police Deputy Chief Sean Gallagher four days before the attack on the U.S. Capitol to inquire about whether Capitol Police anticipated they would request National Guard troops be deployed to prepare for Jan. 6."

The Capitol Police then rejected the offer. From the included document:



Then, the Capitol Chief of Police Steve Sund made a request for the National Guard to be there. His request went up the chain and was denied by the Senate Sergeant of Arms and the House Senate at Arms, who report to Pelosi and Schumer:

    "Just hours after Gallagher’s rejection of DOD’s offer for troops, Capitol Police issued a new warning to its commanders and executives, as well as to the two congressionally appointed House and Senate Sergeants at Arms responsible for congressional security, the timeline shows.

    ...

    Within 24-hours of the new assessment’s circulation, then-chief of the Capitol Police Steve Sund changed course and began requesting permission to deploy National Guard troops from the House and Senate Sergeant at Arms – both of whom report to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Democrat Leader Chuck Schumer, respectively.

    “COP Sund asks Senate Sergeant at Arms (SSAA) Michael Stenger and House Sergeant at Arms (HSAA) Paul Irving for authority to have National Guard to assist with security for the January 6, 2021 event based on briefing with law enforcement partner and revised intelligence Assessment,” the timeline notes. “COP Sund's request is denied. SSAA and HSAA tell COP Sund to contact General Walker at DC National Guard to discuss the guard's ability to support a request if needed.”"

Trump wanted the National Guard to be there more so than Pelosi and Schumer.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 10:08:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9721 on: July 27, 2022, 07:27:50 AM »
The building wasn’t empty, evacuated yet...

There was just ‘40 feet between the vice president and the mob’ on Jan. 6, Aguilar says

“Approximately 40 feet. That’s all there was, 40 feet between the vice president and the mob,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-Redlands). “Make no mistake about the fact that the vice president’s life was in danger.

Video footage from the Jan. 6 insurrection displayed during the hearing showed the mob chanting “Hang Mike Pence,” as they stormed the Capitol. Another rioter yelled into a camera, “You f—ing politicians are gonna get dragged through the streets.




Anyone can see that there are several walls there between Pence and the protestors. The fact is that nothing happened to Pence and his security detail succeeded.

Yes, they did succeed.

“Approximately 40 feet. That’s all there was, 40 feet between the vice president and the mob,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-Redlands). “Make no mistake about the fact that the vice president’s life was in danger.

Video footage from the Jan. 6 insurrection displayed during the hearing showed the mob chanting “Hang Mike Pence,” as they stormed the Capitol. Another rioter yelled into a camera, “You f—ing politicians are gonna get dragged through the streets.


So if a mob that seemingly wants to forcefully, perhaps physically stop you from doing something and they are 40 feet away, some chanting "Hang Tom Bishop!" and a cop comes by and wisks you to safety, that's a "no harm, no foul" situation for you?

You recently said:
Your second image shows minor property damage and trespass into a largely empty building.

Largely empty? For one, there was a mob storming inside and 40 feet from your Vice President. for two, the time line:

Shortly after 2 p.m.
Protesters break windows and climb into the Capitol. They open doors for others to follow.

Secret Service agents whisk Pence off the Senate floor.

A few minutes later, Pelosi is ushered off the House floor.

2:20 p.m.

The Senate is called to recess, and the House is called to recess shortly after.

2:24 p.m.
Trump tweets: "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution."

He continues with more baseless claims about a fraudulent election.

2:39 p.m.
Rep. Peter Welch, D-Vt., tweets a video from where he's sheltering in the House chamber. "We were just told that there has been tear gas in the rotunda, and we're being instructed to each of us get gas masks that are under our seats," he says.


40 minutes after the initial breach, there were still lots of people in the building, even in the chambers.

And a little sidebar, 4 minutes after the chambers were put on lockdown with many still inside, Trump tweets, "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution."

Talk about pouring fuel on the fire. Kinda the complete opposite of what a Commander in Chief should have done.



*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9722 on: July 27, 2022, 07:43:07 AM »
Quote from: stack
So if a mob that seemingly wants to forcefully, perhaps physically stop you from doing something and they are 40 feet away, some chanting "Hang Tom Bishop!" and a cop comes by and wisks you to safety, that's a "no harm, no foul" situation for you?

That is literally no harm, correct.

You are arguing that National Guard should have been deployed to the capitol steps to enact violence against a very large crowd of thousands of people who could have easily trampled them, or could have suddenly reversed course in fear and trampled themselves, when the solution was just to move some people a few rooms away to the secured bunker. Whoever came up with that plan was clearly pretty intelligent. Your plan, not so much. Your plan involves adding in more violence with a potentially deadly result.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 10:13:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Trump
« Reply #9723 on: July 27, 2022, 07:56:00 AM »
Anyone can see that there are several walls there between Pence and the protestors.

I have assumed they probably wouldn't have gone directly left and tried to burrow through the walls.
My 4 year old boy is apparently better at mazes than you, he helped me work out a route which doesn't go through walls:

Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9724 on: July 27, 2022, 08:00:06 AM »
Then, the Capitol Chief of Police Steve Sund made a request for the National Guard to be there. His request went up the chain and was denied by the Senate Sergeant of Arms and the House Senate at Arms, who report to Pelosi and Schumer

I think your source doesn't quite have the facts straight.

The House Sergeant at Arms reports to Pelosi and the Senate Sergeant at Arms reported to McConnell, a Republican who was then Senate Majority Leader.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9725 on: July 27, 2022, 08:10:53 AM »
I have assumed they probably wouldn't have gone directly left and tried to burrow through the walls.
My 4 year old boy is apparently better at mazes than you, he helped me work out a route which doesn't go through walls:



It sounds like you need to smarten up your kid. A smart child would figure out that there could be potentially locked doors there.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9726 on: July 27, 2022, 08:14:06 AM »
Ah, so now it's doors not walls. Apology accepted :)
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9727 on: July 27, 2022, 08:17:19 AM »
Ah, so now it's doors not walls. Apology accepted :)

There are clearly walls between those points. You would have to navigate around the walls through potentially locked doors like in your diagram to avoid it.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9728 on: July 27, 2022, 08:29:46 AM »
Quote from: stack
So if a mob that seemingly wants to forcefully, perhaps physically stop you from doing something and they are 40 feet away, some chanting "Hang Tom Bishop!" and a cop comes by and wisks you to safety, that's a "no harm, no foul" situation for you?

That is literally no harm, correct.

No foul? You wouldn't be a bit rattled or fearful of a mob coming after you trying to stop you from performing your constitutional duty?

You are arguing that National Guard should have been deployed to the capitol steps to enact violence against a very large crowd of thousands of people who could have easily trampled them, or could have suddenly reversed course in fear and trampled themselves, when the solution was just to move some people a few rooms away to the secured bunker. Whoever came up with that plan clearly was clearly pretty intelligent. Your plan, not so much. Your plan involves adding in more violence with a potentially deadly result.

So based upon your assessment, if we had zero security there, no Capitol cops, nothing, there would have been no violence? To make sure no insurrectionists got harmed, we should have just let them in the building, no barricading, no evacuations, no hunkering down in offices. Just let them in?

And if deploying the NG would have led to trampling or other violence and harm as you suggest, why did the NG actually, eventually, deploy to the Capitol at around 5:20 PM? It still took a few hours to secure and clear the Capitol.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9729 on: July 27, 2022, 08:31:44 AM »
Then, the Capitol Chief of Police Steve Sund made a request for the National Guard to be there. His request went up the chain and was denied by the Senate Sergeant of Arms and the House Senate at Arms, who report to Pelosi and Schumer

I think your source doesn't quite have the facts straight.

The House Sergeant at Arms reports to Pelosi and the Senate Sergeant at Arms reported to McConnell, a Republican who was then Senate Majority Leader.

Incorrect. The Senate Sergeant at Arms actually serve a committee, of which Chuck Schumer was a part of at the time:

https://www.senate.gov/reference/office/sergeant_at_arms.htm

"As chief law enforcement officer of the Senate, the Sergeant at Arms is charged with maintaining security in the Capitol and all Senate buildings, as well as protection of the members themselves. The Sergeant at Arms serves as the executive officer of the Senate for enforcement of all rules of the Committee on Rules and Administration regulating the Senate wing of the Capitol and the Senate office buildings and has responsibility for and immediate supervision of the Senate floor, Chamber, and galleries."

A December 2020 page shows that Chuck Schumer was part of this committee along with Amy Klobuchar, Dianne Feinstein, Richard Durbin and various RINOs. So yes, Schumer was involved in this decision.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 08:39:41 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9730 on: July 27, 2022, 08:39:23 AM »
Ah, so now it's doors not walls. Apology accepted :)

There are clearly walls between those points. You would have to navigate around the walls through potentially locked doors like in your diagram to avoid it.

Clearly no walls or doors in the way...

Red = Rioters
Yellow = Your VP


*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9731 on: July 27, 2022, 08:41:20 AM »
Ah, so now it's doors not walls. Apology accepted :)

There are clearly walls between those points. You would have to navigate around the walls through potentially locked doors like in your diagram to avoid it.

Clearly no walls or doors in the way...

Red = Rioters
Yellow = Your VP



Wrong. There are clearly walls in the way between those two points.

Also, the Capitol building is not built without doors.  ::)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 08:44:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9732 on: July 27, 2022, 08:45:15 AM »
Then, the Capitol Chief of Police Steve Sund made a request for the National Guard to be there. His request went up the chain and was denied by the Senate Sergeant of Arms and the House Senate at Arms, who report to Pelosi and Schumer

I think your source doesn't quite have the facts straight.

The House Sergeant at Arms reports to Pelosi and the Senate Sergeant at Arms reported to McConnell, a Republican who was then Senate Majority Leader.

Incorrect. The Senate Sergeant at Arms actually serve a committee, of which Chuck Schumer was a part of at the time:

https://www.senate.gov/reference/office/sergeant_at_arms.htm

Wrong again:

On January 7, 2021, Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer announced that he would fire the incumbent Sergeant at Arms, Michael C. Stenger, if he was not fired or did not resign prior to Schumer's being appointed as Senate Majority Leader.[9] This announcement was made the day after the Capitol Building was attacked by a violent group of supporters of President Donald Trump. The attack resulted in the death of at least 5 people and extensive damage of more than $2 million of the building itself.[10] On the same day, Mitch McConnell, the outgoing Senate Majority Leader, asked for and received Stenger's resignation, effective immediately.[11] Deputy Sergeant at Arms Jennifer Hemingway was announced by McConnell as the acting sergeant-at-arms.[12] On January 20, 2021, Eugene Goodman was announced as the acting deputy Sergeant at Arms of the United States Senate when stepping out onto the inauguration platform ahead of Kamala Harris.[13][14]

Looks like the only person who could fire the S0fArms was McConnell. Usually your boss is the one who fires you...

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9733 on: July 27, 2022, 08:50:12 AM »
Ah, so now it's doors not walls. Apology accepted :)

There are clearly walls between those points. You would have to navigate around the walls through potentially locked doors like in your diagram to avoid it.

Clearly no walls or doors in the way...

Red = Rioters
Yellow = Your VP



Wrong. There are clearly walls in the way between those two points.

Also, the Capitol building is not built without doors.  ::)

Where are the walls and doors? Just follow the red arrows. Nary a wall nor a door along a simple straight path.



Are you in the habit of just claiming there are walls and doors where there clearly are none?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9734 on: July 27, 2022, 08:54:35 AM »
Quote
Where are the walls and doors? Just follow the red arrows. Nary a wall nor a door along a simple straight path.

A child could see that that's not a straight path between those two points. Between those two points walls are in the way. You would need to navigate around the walls, through potentially locked doors. The image clearly does not illustrate any doors, and your posting it as evidence that the Capitol building is a building entirely without doors is faulty.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 09:03:54 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9735 on: July 27, 2022, 09:06:35 AM »
Wrong again:

On January 7, 2021, Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer announced that he would fire the incumbent Sergeant at Arms, Michael C. Stenger, if he was not fired or did not resign prior to Schumer's being appointed as Senate Majority Leader.[9] This announcement was made the day after the Capitol Building was attacked by a violent group of supporters of President Donald Trump. The attack resulted in the death of at least 5 people and extensive damage of more than $2 million of the building itself.[10] On the same day, Mitch McConnell, the outgoing Senate Majority Leader, asked for and received Stenger's resignation, effective immediately.[11] Deputy Sergeant at Arms Jennifer Hemingway was announced by McConnell as the acting sergeant-at-arms.[12] On January 20, 2021, Eugene Goodman was announced as the acting deputy Sergeant at Arms of the United States Senate when stepping out onto the inauguration platform ahead of Kamala Harris.[13][14]

Looks like the only person who could fire the S0fArms was McConnell. Usually your boss is the one who fires you...

Incorrect. Regardless of who can fire officials or request a resignation, the Capitol security receives procedural orders from a committee:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/security-fallout-in-capitol-could-be-swift-455803

"Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.), a trusted Pelosi ally who chairs the committee in charge of Capitol security logistics, said Sund misled her about the security preparations for the Jan. 6. session."

Zoe Lofgran is neither Pelosi or Schumer, and chairs the committee in charge of Capitol security logistics. In this case they were reprimanding the Capitol Chief of Police. So, you are wrong that the security logistics are handled by a single person.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 09:39:29 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9736 on: July 27, 2022, 09:07:07 AM »
Quote
Where are the walls and doors? Just follow the red arrows. Nary a wall nor a door along a simple straight path.

A child could see that that's not a straight path between those two points. Between those two points walls are in the way. You would need to navigate around the walls, through potentially locked doors. The image clearly does not illustrate the doors, and your posting it as evidence that the Capitol is a building entirely without doors is faulty.

"Navigate around walls...", "Not a straight path"???  A child can't walk 10 feet down a hall, take a right, walk 20 feet,  take a left and walk 10 feet? There are no walls in the way. Your argument is that humans can't walk 40' down halls from point A to point B unless it's a straight path. Talk about a desperate argument.

What doors? Show the phantom doors? Show that they were locked. Just saying, "Oh well, there must be locked doors" is hardly compelling without any evidence. And it's not like the mob didn't already smash through doors and windows to get in in the first place...Why would a phantom locked door stop them ::)

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3445
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9737 on: July 27, 2022, 09:11:50 AM »
Wrong again:

On January 7, 2021, Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer announced that he would fire the incumbent Sergeant at Arms, Michael C. Stenger, if he was not fired or did not resign prior to Schumer's being appointed as Senate Majority Leader.[9] This announcement was made the day after the Capitol Building was attacked by a violent group of supporters of President Donald Trump. The attack resulted in the death of at least 5 people and extensive damage of more than $2 million of the building itself.[10] On the same day, Mitch McConnell, the outgoing Senate Majority Leader, asked for and received Stenger's resignation, effective immediately.[11] Deputy Sergeant at Arms Jennifer Hemingway was announced by McConnell as the acting sergeant-at-arms.[12] On January 20, 2021, Eugene Goodman was announced as the acting deputy Sergeant at Arms of the United States Senate when stepping out onto the inauguration platform ahead of Kamala Harris.[13][14]

Looks like the only person who could fire the S0fArms was McConnell. Usually your boss is the one who fires you...

Incorrect. Regardless of who can fire him (he actually resigned), they receive procedural orders from a committee:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/security-fallout-in-capitol-could-be-swift-455803

"Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.), a trusted Pelosi ally who chairs the committee in charge of Capitol security logistics, said Sund misled her about the security preparations for the Jan. 6. session."

Zoe Lofgran is neither Pelosi or Schumer, and chairs the committee in charge of Capitol security logistics. So, you are wrong that the Sergeant at Arms reports only to a single person.

Wrong again:

Mitch McConnell, the outgoing Senate Majority Leader, asked for and received Stenger's resignation, effective immediately.

When your boss asks you for your resignation it's completely different than you walking into your boss' office and, unprovoked, tell him/her you are resigning. Do you not get that?

If your boss asks you for your resignation and you say no, guess what happens next.

Re: Trump
« Reply #9738 on: July 27, 2022, 09:29:20 AM »
Quote
Where are the walls and doors? Just follow the red arrows. Nary a wall nor a door along a simple straight path.

A child could see that that's not a straight path between those two points. Between those two points walls are in the way. You would need to navigate around the walls, through potentially locked doors. The image clearly does not illustrate the doors, and your posting it as evidence that the Capitol is a building entirely without doors is faulty.

"Navigate around walls...", "Not a straight path"???  A child can't walk 10 feet down a hall, take a right, walk 20 feet,  take a left and walk 10 feet? There are no walls in the way. Your argument is that humans can't walk 40' down halls from point A to point B unless it's a straight path. Talk about a desperate argument.

What doors? Show the phantom doors? Show that they were locked. Just saying, "Oh well, there must be locked doors" is hardly compelling without any evidence. And it's not like the mob didn't already smash through doors and windows to get in in the first place...Why would a phantom locked door stop them ::)
This is all a bit embarrassing. It seems that all we'd need to do, if we wanted to incarcerate Tom, is to put him round the corner from the open exit.
He would then spend his days fruitlessly bumping into the wall in the direction the exit is, not realising he only has to go along the corridor and then turn the corner to escape.
BuT ThErE's A WaLl In ThE WaY!11!!!!
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10248
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #9739 on: July 27, 2022, 09:30:57 AM »
"Navigate around walls...", "Not a straight path"???  A child can't walk 10 feet down a hall, take a right, walk 20 feet,  take a left and walk 10 feet?

The child would know that he did not walk a straight path. There are clearly walls in the way that would have to be navigated around, with potentially locked doors. You have failed to make your case that there were no walls between the protestors and Pence, or that the Capitol building is a building entirely without doors.

There are actually plenty of doors, and likely multiple route options security could take to avoid protestors:

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/01/17/41-minutes-of-fear-a-timeline-from-inside-the-capitol-siege/



« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 09:56:56 AM by Tom Bishop »