Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2016, 02:17:29 PM »
I'll have to look more at that core stuff later -- that's a really long page you sent. I'm not too concerned about the specifics of the composition of Earth's interior (although what you sent seems very interesting) -- the important piece for my argument is how waves are observed to travel through the Earth. Again, I only skimmed the page you sent, but it doesn't look like that fact is disputed. So my question remains, how would these waves travel this way in a flat earth?


As for your bi-polar map, it seems to me to just be swapping one problem for another. Sure, you can now explain circumnavigation of Antarctica, but travelling from Australia to South America is even more of a problem on the bipolar map than on the Azimuthal Equidistant map that most FE'ers seem to subscribe to. How do you reconcile this with things like live satellite weather and wind maps, which clearly show continuous data across a relatively short path from Australia to Chile? And there are, of course the shipping lanes crisscrossing the Pacific, with a handful going straight from Australia or New Zealand to South America. This would be an incredibly circuitous route by your map (even the routes to North America would be circuitous), passing by Japan, the Kamchatka peninsula, then Alaska and the entire US West Coast before finally reaching South America. How would commercial sailors and pilots not realize that this is a horribly inefficient route?


My main problem with every attempt to make a map of a flat earth is that, no matter what specific map you endorse, it is inevitable that you will have to say that certain things are farther apart or closer together than the RE model would have us believe. With such an interconnected global economy, it seems ludicrous to say that our best cartographers don't actually know how far it is from City A to City B. Then you're left with saying either 1) that we simply have been measuring distances wrong this whole time and nobody's noticed, or 2) somebody knows the real distances -- which brings us to the Enormous, Pointless Conspiracy For Which I Have Seen No Plausible Justifications.


I've also glanced at the gravity stuff, and that also looks like a lot to slog through. I'm pretty sure you guys are wrong about that, but it seems like there's enough there to have a whole separate post about. So consider the gravity point dropped for now.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 02:19:49 PM by rubberbands »

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2016, 03:31:16 PM »
I could argue with you about the inner composition of the Earth...about the fact that I did debate the bipolar map for years with the RE using every imaginable flight path (even Santiago de Chile to Juneau) and still won... or bring to your attention the double force of attractive gravitation paradox...

Let us not waste time anymore: here is the Tunguska file.



JULY 1, 1908 LETTER SENT TO THE LONDON TIMES

http://www.nuforc.org/GNTungus.html

“TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES.”

“Sir,--I should be interested in hearing whether others of your readers observed the strange light in the sky which was seen here last night by my sister and myself. I do not know when it first appeared; we saw it between 12 o’clock (midnight) and 12:15 a.m.  It was in the northeast and of a bright flame-colour like the light of sunrise or sunset.  The sky, for some distance above the light, which appeared to be on the horizon, was blue as in the daytime, with bands of light cloud of a pinkish colour floating across it at intervals.  Only the brightest stars could be seen in any part of the sky, though it was an almost cloudless night.  It was possible to read large print indoors, and the hands of the clock in my room were quite distinct.  An hour later, at about 1:30 a.m., the room was quite light, as if it had been day; the light in the sky was then more dispersed and was a fainter yellow.  The whole effect was that of a night in Norway at about this time of year.  I am in the habit of watching the sky, and have noticed the amount of light indoors at different hours of the night several times in the last fortnight.  I have never at any time seen anything the least like this in England, and it would be interesting if any one would explain the cause of so unusual a sight.

Yours faithfully,
Katharine Stephen.
Godmanchester, Huntingdon, July 1.”


Let us remember that the first newspaper report about the explosion itself ONLY appeared on July 2, 1908 in the Sibir periodical.


A report from Berlin in the New York Times of July 3 stated: 'Remarkable lights were observed in the northern heavens on Tuesday and Wednesday nights, the bright diffused white and yellow illumination continuing through the night until it disappeared at dawn...'

On July 5, (1908) a New York Times story from Britain was entitled: 'Like Dawn at Midnight.' '...The northern sky at midnight became light blue, as if the dawn were breaking...people believed that a big fire was raging in the north of London...shortly after midnight, it was possible to read large print indoors...it would be interesting if anyone would explain the cause of so unusual a sight.'


The letter sent by Mrs. Katharine Stephen is absolutely genuine as it includes details NOBODY else knew at the time: not only the precise timing of the explosion itself (7:15 - 7:17 local time, 0:15 - 0:17 London time), BUT ALSO THE DURATION OF THE TRAJECTORY OF THE OBJECT, right before the explosion, a fact uncovered decades later only by the painstaking research of Dr. Felix Zigel, an aerodynamics professor at the Moscow Institute of Aviation:


The same opinion was reached by Felix Zigel, who as an aerodynamics professor at the Moscow Institute of Aviation has been involved in the training of many Soviet cosmonauts. His latest study of all the eyewitness and physical data convinced him that "before the blast the Tunguska body described in the atmosphere a tremendous arc of about 375 miles in extent (in azimuth)" - that is, it "carried out a maneuver." No natural object is capable of such a feat.



Manotskov decided that the 1908 object, on the other hand, had a far slower entry speed and that, nearing the earth, it reduced its speed to "0.7 kilometers per second, or 2,400 kilometers per hour" - less than half a mile per second.

375 miles = 600 km, or 15 minutes of flight time, given the speed exemplified above

I do not know when it first appeared; we saw it between 12 o’clock (midnight) and 12:15 a.m.


LeMaire maintains the "accident-explanation is untenable" because "the flaming object was being expertly navigated" using Lake Baikal as a reference point. Indeed, Lake Baikal is an ideal aerial navigation reference point being 400 miles long and about 35 miles wide. LeMaire's description of the course of the Tunguska object lends credence to the thought of expert navigation:

The body approached from the south, but when about 140 miles from the explosion point, while over Kezhma, it abruptly changed course to the east. Two hundred and fifty miles later, while above Preobrazhenka, it reversed its heading toward the west. It exploded above the taiga at 60º55' N, 101º57' E (LeMaire 1980).




The fight path of the cosmic object, as reconstructed from eyewitness testimony and ballistic wave evidence. Felix Zigel and other space experts agree that, prior to exploding, the object changed from an eastward to a westward direction over the Stony Tunguska region. The arc at the bottom of the map indicates the scope of the area where witnesses either saw the fiery object or heard the blast.


The information acquired by the Florensky and Zolotov expeditions about the ballistic shock effect on the trees provides a strong basis, in some scientists' view, for a reconstruction of an alteration in the object's line of flight. In the terminal phase of its descent, according to the most recent speculations, the object appears to have approached on an eastward course, then changed course westward over the region before exploding. The ballistic wave evidence, in fact, indicates that some type of flight correction was performed in the atmosphere.

UFOs/Jet aircrafts/V2 rockets were invented by the Vril society, only after 1936.


Tesla had a bold fantasy whereby he would use the principle of rarefied gas luminescence to light up the sky at night. High frequency electric energy would be transmitted, perhaps by an ionizing beam of ultraviolet radiation, into the upper atmosphere, where gases are at relatively low pressure, so that this layer would behave like a luminous tube. Sky lighting, he said, would reduce the need for street lighting, and facilitate the movement of ocean going vessels.



A photograph with an exposure time of 20 seconds taken at 10.50 p.m., July 1, 1908 by George Embrey of Gloucester.



The telluric currents/ether/subquark-magnetic monopoles strings transmitted the energy input from the Tesla ball lightning spheres which exploded over Siberia (Tunguska):  this is how the bright luminescence in the night skies of Europe and Central Asia was created.


If the light from the Sun could not reach London due to curvature and/or any light reflection phenomena, then certainly NO LIGHT from an explosion which occurred at some 7 km altitude in the atmosphere could have been seen at all, at the same time, on a spherical earth.


Tunguska file:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,59690.msg1537115.html#msg1537115

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59690.msg1535846#msg1535846 (no comet, meteorite, or asteroid)


Tesla - Tunguska:

http://www.teslasociety.com/tunguska.htm
http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tunguska.htm

Geo-magnetic disturbances were already observed even before the explosion!!

Many years later, researchers from Tomsk came across a forgotten publication by a Professor Weber about a powerful geo-magnetic disturbance observed in a laboratory at Kiel University in Germany for three days before the intrusion of the Tunguska object, and which ended at the very hour when the gigantic bolide exploded above the Central Siberian Plateau.


Tesla experimented with the ball lightning ether for YEARS before the Tunguska event; from the Wardenclyffe tower he sent longitudinal waves for days BEFORE the event itself in order to carefully set up the experiment.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2016, 03:39:53 PM »
Ah, there's no real debate torn to pieces and demolished the way sandokhan does it when he brings his copy/paste of the tunguska "file" - That was bound to happen.

(Or citing his own work from external pages as scientific proof)
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2016, 04:39:27 PM »
    Yeah, this Tunguska stuff might be interesting in another thread, but not in this one. So far as I can see, it's not relevant to anything that's been stated so far. As I said in my OP, I've seen tons of other threads on this site get totally sidetracked when discussing these things, and I don't want that to happen here.

    Just to make sure we stay on track, these are, broadly, these are the questions I'm asking to Flat Earthers:

    • How can seismic waves from one side of the Earth be detected on the other side if it's flat? (This is not the same as asking about the inner composition of the Earth -- I'm just interested in the fact that these waves propagate at all, not what they propagate through. The composition of the Earth might be relevant to answering this question, but I have not seen anything so far that has made me think that is the case.)
    • Given that a map of a round Earth cannot be perfectly represented on a flat surface, and that if you look up the distances between any two points on Earth, they'll be consistent with the RE model, most* accepted distances between two points must be inaccurate. However, as the abundance of Made-in-China products attests, we have a very interconnected global economy. This means either (a) airline pilots and sailors have no idea what the Earth actually looks like, but successfully navigate it anyway, or (b) many of them are in on some vast conspiracy. If (a), how do they do it? If (b), why?
    • There are plenty of maps of weather patterns moving smoothly across the whole planet. You can track weather and wind formations moving from Australia to South America. This is either elaborately fabricated (and thus many meteorologists are in on The Conspiracy) or it's accurate. If it's accurate, how can the mapping of these weather patterns be reconciled with a flat Earth?
    • The concept of a (roughly) spherical Earth has been around for quite some time -- at least 400 years or so, and much, much longer in some places. Since almost all the talk about The Conspiracy that I see on this site involves NASA in some way or another, what motivation did people/nations 400 years ago have in perpetuating a Round Earth myth? If they just didn't know about FE back then, when did they find out, and when did the conspiracy actually begin?
    • Due to the worldwide presence of pilots, sailors, geologists, and meteorologists, the higher-ups of almost every nation should know about the true shape of the world. Since most of the talk about The Conspiracy seems to be US-focused, what motivation do non-US nations have to keep this a secret?
    • Whatever the US/NASA's ultimate goals are, how could perpetrating a worldwide conspiracy possibly be the best way they could come up with to achieve those goals?


    And just a general remark:
when has any other government project gone on for so long and been so successful?


These are things I'm not asking about in this thread, unless you make the case that they're directly relevant to one of the above:
  • Pretty much anything about NASA
  • Pretty much anything about Tunguska
  • Pretty much anything about whether the Earth's core is made of iron
  • The Cavendish experiment, since I've seen you guys have an established answer to that

The things I want to discuss are mostly things I haven't seen other answers to on this site, which is why I'm emphasizing them. I don't want to get caught up in arguments that you guys have had a hundred times before.


*For instance, the Azimuthal Equidistant projection (aka the Unipolar map that I see most often here) maintains the correct distance between each point and the North Pole, but the distance between any other points will differ from what would be calculated on a globe.[/list]
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 04:42:23 PM by rubberbands »

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 06:40:53 PM »
So far as I can see, it's not relevant to anything that's been stated so far.

It is most relevant: it answers all your questions at once.

The Tunguska explosion event does prove that the surface of the Earth is actually flat.


What would be the point of addressing seismic waves?

To tell you that the discontinuities of the seismic waves assumed by modern science to occur at the crust mantle boundary are actually a network of huge caverns and large underground bodies of water and that they would match perfectly the seismic data?

That great masses of water are interpreted as molten rock?

Seismic data which directly refute the claims of a solid Earth (RE) have been ignored by seismologists.

Did you know that seismic waves travel faster north-south than east-west for a full four seconds?

"The S-wave shadow zone is larger than the P-wave shadow zones; direct S waves are not recorded in the entire region more than 103° away from the epicentre. It therefore seems that S waves do not travel through the core at all, and this is interpreted to mean that it is liquid, or at least acts like a liquid. The way P waves are refracted in the core is believed to indicate that there is a solid inner core. Although most of the earth's iron is supposed to be concentrated in the core, it is interesting to note that in the outer zones of the earth, iron levels decrease with depth.

Seismologists sometimes draw contradictory conclusions from the same seismic data. For instance, two groups of geophysicists produced completely different pictures of the core-mantle boundary, where there are believed to be 'mountains' and 'valleys' as high or deep as 10 km. The two groups used virtually the same data but used different equations to process them. Seismologists also disagree on the rate of rotation of the inner core: some say it is rotating faster than the rest of the planet, others that it is rotating more slowly, and yet others that it rotates at the same speed!

    It is becoming increasingly evident that the earth model presented by the reigning theory of plate tectonics is seriously flawed. The rigid lithosphere, comprising the crust and uppermost mantle, is said to be fractured into several 'plates' of varying sizes, which move over a relatively plastic layer of partly molten rock known as the asthenosphere (or low-velocity zone). The lithosphere is said to average about 70 km thick beneath oceans and to be 100 to 250 km thick beneath continents. A powerful challenge to this model is posed by seismic tomography, which shows that the oldest parts of the continents have deep roots extending to depths of 400 to 600 km, and that the asthenosphere is essentially absent beneath them. Seismic research shows that even under the oceans there is no continuous asthenosphere, only disconnected asthenospheric lenses.

    The more we learn about the crust and uppermost mantle, the more the models presented in geological textbooks are exposed as simplistic and unrealistic. The outermost layers of the earth have a highly complex, irregular, inhomogeneous structure; they are divided by faults into a mosaic of separate, jostling blocks of different shapes and sizes, generally a few hundred kilometres across, and of varying internal structure and strength. This fact, in conjunction with the existence of deep continental roots and the absence of a global asthenosphere, means that the notion of huge rigid plates moving thousands of kilometres across the earth is simply untenable. Continents are about as mobile as a brick in a wall!

    The plate-tectonic hypothesis that the present oceans have formed by seafloor spreading since the early Mesozoic (within the last 200 million years) is also becoming increasingly implausible. Numerous far older continental rocks have been discovered in the oceans, along with 'anomalous' crustal types intermediate between standard 'continental' and 'oceanic' crust (e.g. plateaus, ridges, and rises), and the evidence for large (now submerged) continental landmasses in the present oceans continues to mount.

At the Kola hole, scientists expected to find 4.7 km of metamorphosed sedimentary and volcanic rock, then a granitic layer to a depth of 7 km (the 'Conrad discontinuity'), with a basaltic layer below it. The granite, however, appeared at 6.8 km and extends to more than 12 km; no basaltic layer was ever found! Seismic-reflection surveys, in which sound waves sent into the crust bounce back off contrasting rock types, have detected the Conrad discontinuity beneath all the continents, but the standard interpretation that it represents a change from granitic to basaltic rocks is clearly wrong. Metamorphic changes brought about by heat and pressure are now thought to be the most likely explanation.

The superdeep borehole at Oberpfälz, Germany, was expected to pass through a 3-to-5-km-thick nappe complex into a suture zone formed by a supposed continental collision. The borehole reached a final depth of 9101 m in 1994, but no evidence supporting the nappe concept was found. What the scientists did find was a series of nearly vertical folds that had failed to show up on seismic-reflection profiles.

 Rock density is generally expected to increase with depth, as pressures rise. Results from the Kola hole indicated that densities did increase with depth initially, but at 4.5 km the drill encountered a sudden decrease in density, presumably due to increased porosity. The results also showed that increases in seismic velocity do not have to be caused by an increase in rock basicity. The Soviet Minister of Geology reported that 'with increasing depth in the Kola hole, the expected increase in rock densities was therefore not recorded. Neither was any increase in the speed of seismic waves nor any other changes in the physical properties of the rocks detected. Thus the traditional idea that geological data obtained from the surface can be directly correlated with geological materials in the deep crust must be reexamined.'

    The results of superdeep drilling show that seismic surveys of continental crust are being systematically misinterpreted. Much of the modelling of the earth's interior depends on the interpretation of seismic records. If these interpretations are wrong at depths of only a few kilometres, how much reliance can be placed on interpretations of the earth's structure at depths of hundreds or thousands of kilometres beneath the surface?!

    Contrary to expectations, signs of rock alteration and mineralization were found as deep as 7 km in the Kola well. The hole intercepted a copper-nickel ore body almost 2 km below the level at which ore bodies were thought to disappear. In addition, hydrogen, helium, methane, and other gases, together with strongly mineralized waters were found circulating throughout the Kola hole. The presence of fractures open to fluid circulation at pressures of more than 3000 bars was entirely unexpected. The drillers at Oberpfälz discovered hot fluids in open fractures at 3.4 km. The brine was rich in potassium and twice as salty as ocean water, and its origin is a mystery.

Another surprise at the Kola hole was that lifeforms and fossils were discovered several kilometres down. Microscopic fossils were found at depths of 6.7 km. 24 species were identified among these microfossils, representing the envelopes or coverings of single-cell marine plants known as plankton. Unlike conventional shells of limestone or silica, these coverings were found to consist of carbon and nitrogen and had remained remarkably unaltered despite the high pressures and temperatures to which they had been subjected.

The oceanic crust is commonly divided into three main layers: layer 1 consists of ocean-floor sediments and averages 0.5 km in thickness; layer 2 consists largely of basalt and is 1.0 to 2.5 km thick; and layer 3 is assumed to consist of gabbro and is about 5 km thick. A drillhole in the eastern Pacific Ocean has been reoccupied four times in a 12-year span, and has now reached a total depth of 2000 m below the seafloor. Seismic evidence suggested that the boundary between layers 2 and 3 would be found at a depth of about 1700 m, but the drill went well past that depth without finding the contact between the dikes of layer 2 and the expected gabbro of layer 3. Either the seismic interpretation or the model of layer 3's composition must be wrong.

If the earth's interior were homogeneous, consisting of materials with the same properties throughout, seismic waves would travel in a straight line at a constant velocity. In reality, waves reach distant seismometers sooner than they would if the earth were homogeneous, and the greater the distance, the greater the acceleration. This implies that the waves arriving at the more distant stations have been travelling faster. Since seismic waves travel not only along the surface but also through the body of the earth, the earth's curvature will clearly result in stations more distant from an earthquake focus receiving waves that have passed through greater depths in the earth. From this it is inferred that the velocity of seismic waves increases with depth, due to changes in the properties of the earth's matter.

    Seismic velocity in different media depends not just on the substance's density but also on its elastic properties (i.e. rigidity and incompressibility). In the case of solids and liquids, for instance, there is no correlation between sound-wave velocity and density. Here are some examples involving metals:

       Substance      Density (g/cm³)         Velocity of longitudinal waves (km/s)
       aluminium         2.7      6.42
       zinc      7.1      4.21
       iron      7.9      5.95
       copper      8.9      4.76
       nickel      8.9      6.04
       gold      19.7      3.24
There is a correlation between density and seismic velocity in the case of gases: velocity decreases with increasing density due to the increased number of collisions.

    According to the relevant equations, the velocity of seismic waves will become slower, the denser the rocks through which they pass, if the rocks' elastic properties change in the same proportion as density. Since seismic waves accelerate with depth, this would imply that density decreases. However, scientists are convinced that the density of the rocks composing the earth's interior increases with depth. To get round this problem, they simply assume that the elastic properties change at a rate that more than compensates for the increase in density. As one textbook puts it:

Since the density of the Earth increases with depth you would expect the waves to slow down with increasing depth. Why, then, do both P- and S-waves speed up as they go deeper? This can only happen because the incompressibility and rigidity of the Earth increase faster with depth than density increases.

Thus geophysicists simply adjust the values for rigidity and incompressibility to fit in with their preconceptions regarding density and velocity distribution within the earth! In other words, their arguments are circular.

Drilling results at the Kola borehole revealed significant heterogeneity in rock composition and density, seismic velocities, and other properties. Overall, rock porosity and pressure increased with depth, while density decreased, and seismic velocities showed no distinct trend. In the Oberpfälz pilot hole, too, density and seismic velocity showed no distinct trend with increasing depth. Many scientists believe that at greater depths, the presumed increase in pressures and temperatures will lead to greater homogeneity and that reality will approximate more closely to current models. But this is no more than a declaration of faith.

    Scientists' conviction that density increases with depth is based on their belief that, due to the accumulating weight of the overlying rock, pressure must increase all the way to the earth's centre where it is believed to reach 3.5 million atmospheres (on the earth's surface the pressure is one atmosphere). They also believe that they know by how much rock density increases towards the earth's centre. This is because they think they have accurately determined the earth's mass (5.98 x 1024 kg) and therefore its average density (5.52 g/cm³). Since the outermost crustal rocks -- the only ones that can be sampled directly -- have a density of only 2.75 g/cm³, it follows that deeper layers of rock must be much denser. At the centre of the earth, density allegedly reaches 13.5 g/cm³.

Pari Spolter casts doubt on this model:

About 71% of the earth's surface is covered by oceans at an average depth of 3795 m and mean density of 1.02 g cm-3. The average thickness of the crust is 19 km and the mean crustal density is 2.75 g cm-3. From studies of seismic wave travel time, geophysicists have outlined a layered structure in the interior of the earth. There is no accurate way currently known of estimating the density distribution from seismic data alone. To come up with a mean density of 5.5, earth models assuming progressively higher density values for the inner zones of the earth have been devised. . . .
    Except for the ocean and the crust, direct measurements of the density of the inner layers of the earth are not available. This currently accepted Earth Model is inconsistent with the law of sedimentation in a centrifuge. The earth has been rotating for some 4.5 billion years. When it was first formed, the earth was in a molten state and was rotating faster than today. The highest density of matter should have migrated to the outer layers. Except for the inner core, . . . the density of the other layers of the earth should be less than 3 g cm-3.
    Also, heavy elements are rare in the universe. How could so much of materials with such low stellar abundances have concentrated in the earth's interior?

The seismic radiation of deep earthquakes is similar to that of shallow earthquakes. It used to be said that deep-focus earthquakes were followed by fewer aftershocks than shallow ones, but there are indications that many of the aftershocks are simply difficult to detect, and that there is much more activity at such depths than is currently believed. The fact that deep earthquakes share many characteristics with shallow earthquakes suggests that they may be caused by similar mechanisms. However, most earth scientists are incapable of entertaining the notion that the earth could be rigid at such depths. One exception is E.A. Skobelin, who draws the logical conclusion that since deep-focus earthquakes cannot originate in plastic material but must be linked to some kind of stress in solid rock, the solid, rigid lithosphere must extend to depths of up to 700 km.

On 8 June 1994, one of the largest deep earthquakes of the 20th century, with a magnitude of 8.3 on the Richter scale, exploded 640 km beneath Bolivia. It caused the whole earth to ring like a bell for months on end; every 20 minutes or so, the entire planet expanded and contracted by a minute amount. A significant feature of the Bolivian earthquake was that it extended horizontally across a 30- by 50-km plane within the 'subducting slab'. This undermines the hypothesis that such quakes are caused by olivine within the 'cold' centre of a slab suddenly being transformed into spinel in a runaway reaction when the temperature rises above 600°C. It also undermines the theory that gravity increases with depth; if this were true, the motion of earthquakes at such depths should be nearly vertical. There appears to be something very wrong with scientific theories about what exists and what is happening deep within the earth.

    The acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 m/s² at the earth's surface and the prevailing view is that it rises to a maximum of 10.4 m/s² at the core-mantle boundary (2900 km), before falling to zero at the earth's centre. But not all earth scientists agree. Skobelin argues that the normal, downwardly-directed gravitational force may be replaced by a reversed, upwardly-directed force at depths of 2700 to 4980 km, and that the widely-accepted figure of 3500 kilobars for the pressure at the earth's centre, may be an order of magnitude too high."

David Pratt

see also: http://davidpratt.info/inner1.htm#s5


Christer Fuglesang

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2016, 07:35:25 PM »

Your example of the Tunguska incident is based on one rare instance of atmospheric conditions. Has this ever been duplicated ?

Your example of Tunguska to or from London would be an impossibility even if the earth was flat.
The elevation of London is approximately 115 feet above sea level. The elevation at Tunguska is approximately 1082 feet above sea level. If there were no obstructions in between you would be able to see them.
But in between are the Ural Mountains with an elevation of approximately 6000 feet above sea level. You would have to see over the mountains.

So if you actually read the letter to the London Times, it clearly states that they saw a light in the sky. It was caused by  a possible explosion in the sky. How could this possibly answer or even attempt to answer whether Tunguska can be seen from London?

Your answer does not remotely address any of the 6 questions asked. That's perfectly ok, because the Earth is spherical.


Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2016, 07:49:27 PM »
But in between are the Ural Mountains with an elevation of approximately 6000 feet above sea level. You would have to see over the mountains.

The explosion itself occurred at some 7 km in the atmosphere.

London - Tunguska: 5200 km

So if you actually read the letter to the London Times, it clearly states that they saw a light in the sky. It was caused by  a possible explosion in the sky. How could this possibly answer or even attempt to answer whether Tunguska can be seen from London?

The explosion was seen INSTANTANEOUSLY ALL OVER EUROPE: no other astronomical event was recorded at that time (rest assured, this is a fact).

Moreover, even the initial trajectory of the object (10-15 minutes) was observed by Mrs. Katharine Stephen.

The letter sent by Mrs. Katharine Stephen is absolutely genuine as it includes details NOBODY else knew at the time: not only the precise timing of the explosion itself (7:15 - 7:17 local time, 0:15 - 0:17 London time), BUT ALSO THE DURATION OF THE TRAJECTORY OF THE OBJECT, right before the explosion, a fact uncovered decades later only by the painstaking research of Dr. Felix Zigel, an aerodynamics professor at the Moscow Institute of Aviation.

If the light from the Sun could not reach London due to curvature and/or any light reflection phenomena, then certainly NO LIGHT from an explosion which occurred at some 7 km altitude in the atmosphere could have been seen at all, at the same time, on a spherical earth.

Christer Fuglesang

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2016, 07:58:27 PM »

If you don't want to answer the 6 questions, you should let other people try.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2016, 08:05:38 PM »
Sandokhan, this is exactly what I mean about threads being taken off track. Tunguska addresses none of what I have asked for above. Even if it did prove unequivocally that the world is flat, it wouldn't tell me how airplane pilots manage to reach their destinations accurately and on time, despite firmly believing they are flying around a sphere. It wouldn't tell me anything about why seismic waves seem to propagate as if they're travelling through a sphere. It wouldn't tell me why any governments would try to cover up the fact that the Earth is flat. It wouldn't tell me why atmospheric data maps perfectly well onto a spherical-Earth map, and therefore necessarily maps imperfectly onto any conceivable flat-Earth map. These are the questions I'm interested in discussing in this thread, NOT unrelated proofs of the Earth's flatness, however valid or invalid they may be. I think it's an interesting topic for another thread, but not for this one.

You've written a lot more about geoscience that, frankly, still seems quite irrelevant. First of all, the fact that there are facts that geoscientists don't agree on doesn't mean the field is worthless, as you seem to imply at a few points. I will readily admit that I don't know very much about geoscience as a whole, but the interior of a planet seems like a difficult thing to map, and if different groups of scientists have come to different conclusions, that probably means they haven't collected enough data. Even if something like the plate-tectonic hypothesis is severely flawed, that says nothing about the Earth being flat. I'm still not sure how the rest is supposed to be relevant. If the Earth is flat and there is a large network of oceans and tunnels underground like you seem to be suggesting, how does that explain the appearance of waves travelling directly through a spherical Earth? That's all I've been asking, and in all this I see no clear answer to that question.

If you do have anything to contribute to this thread, I trust you can do so without pasting entire webpages into your post. Just state the crucial facts of your argument, state how this relates to something I'm actually asking about, and then provide a link to the page as a source.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2016, 08:23:22 PM »
You were very sure about your seismic data before you came here: now, you are starting to doubt it.

You have no idea what causes earthquakes or how actually seismic waves do propagate.

If the Earth is flat and there is a large network of oceans and tunnels underground like you seem to be suggesting, how does that explain the appearance of waves travelling directly through a spherical Earth?

As you have seen, none of the assumptions made by geologists are true about the composition of inner earth, therefore no one at the present time has any idea how actually seismic waves propagate at very large depths.

In order to make claims about the shape of the Earth based on seismic waves, you must know exactly the composition of inner earth: I have given you plenty of examples which do show that this composition is very different than what was assumed to be true.

Please read:

The oceanic crust is commonly divided into three main layers: layer 1 consists of ocean-floor sediments and averages 0.5 km in thickness; layer 2 consists largely of basalt and is 1.0 to 2.5 km thick; and layer 3 is assumed to consist of gabbro and is about 5 km thick. A drillhole in the eastern Pacific Ocean has been reoccupied four times in a 12-year span, and has now reached a total depth of 2000 m below the seafloor. Seismic evidence suggested that the boundary between layers 2 and 3 would be found at a depth of about 1700 m, but the drill went well past that depth without finding the contact between the dikes of layer 2 and the expected gabbro of layer 3. Either the seismic interpretation or the model of layer 3's composition must be wrong.

If the earth's interior were homogeneous, consisting of materials with the same properties throughout, seismic waves would travel in a straight line at a constant velocity. In reality, waves reach distant seismometers sooner than they would if the earth were homogeneous, and the greater the distance, the greater the acceleration. This implies that the waves arriving at the more distant stations have been travelling faster. Since seismic waves travel not only along the surface but also through the body of the earth, the earth's curvature will clearly result in stations more distant from an earthquake focus receiving waves that have passed through greater depths in the earth. From this it is inferred that the velocity of seismic waves increases with depth, due to changes in the properties of the earth's matter.

There is a correlation between density and seismic velocity in the case of gases: velocity decreases with increasing density due to the increased number of collisions.

    According to the relevant equations, the velocity of seismic waves will become slower, the denser the rocks through which they pass, if the rocks' elastic properties change in the same proportion as density. Since seismic waves accelerate with depth, this would imply that density decreases. However, scientists are convinced that the density of the rocks composing the earth's interior increases with depth. To get round this problem, they simply assume that the elastic properties change at a rate that more than compensates for the increase in density. As one textbook puts it:

Since the density of the Earth increases with depth you would expect the waves to slow down with increasing depth. Why, then, do both P- and S-waves speed up as they go deeper? This can only happen because the incompressibility and rigidity of the Earth increase faster with depth than density increases.

Thus geophysicists simply adjust the values for rigidity and incompressibility to fit in with their preconceptions regarding density and velocity distribution within the earth! In other words, their arguments are circular.



I suggest that you dig a little deeper into this field (which might also answer your concerns about seismic waves on a flat earth):

http://www.everythingselectric.com/forum/index.php?topic=97.0;wap2
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/electric_universe/electric_sun01.htm


Birkeland currents, ether and aether
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:38:34 PM by sandokhan »

Offline Catnip

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2016, 02:35:45 AM »
Oh my God. Why did this become a geography class? Let's cut to the bone of the argument. Why would anyone want to sustain a lie about the shape of the earth? What's the benefit, the goal, and the motivation? Why would anyone benefit from not knowing the truth? Who is at the heart of the lie, pulling the strings and hiding in the shadows? What are they getting out of it? What is their purpose?

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2016, 12:02:29 PM »
And why do you keep avoiding answering the questions asked? There's no shame in saying that you can't :)
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

Wezzoid

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2016, 04:16:27 PM »
The state of the "debate" subforum is shameful. The shocking intellectual dishonesty makes me embarrassed to be associated with FES to be honest.
Junker, an admin for goodness' sake, insistently stonewalling, and sandokhan blatantly filibustering.
How can you call yourselves God-fearing Christians and engage in deception in this manner? Two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm sure I'll get deleted and banned before this gets seen, hence the fresh profile, but I couldn't just stand idly by. We looked up to you.
Truth does not shy away from scrutiny.

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2016, 04:49:22 PM »

The state of the "debate" subforum is shameful. The shocking intellectual dishonesty makes me embarrassed to be associated with FES to be honest.
Junker, an admin for goodness' sake, insistently stonewalling, and sandokhan blatantly filibustering.
How can you call yourselves God-fearing Christians and engage in deception in this manner? Two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm sure I'll get deleted and banned before this gets seen, hence the fresh profile, but I couldn't just stand idly by. We looked up to you.
Truth does not shy away from scrutiny.

Well, I am not a god-fearing Christian, so there's that. I'll engage in debate with people on either side and answer directly. Unfortunately, I don't always know what people are trying to say, and if I prod for details, people get upset. I can't help if they aren't good at making points. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about that.

Why would you get deleted and banned? At worst, this post is just in the wrong forum, as we have a dedicated forum for suggestions and concerns. I don't mind people criticizing me. Certainly not going to ban someone for it.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2016, 08:54:29 PM »
Quote
In order to make claims about the shape of the Earth based on seismic waves, you must know exactly the composition of inner earth: I have given you plenty of examples which do show that this composition is very different than what was assumed to be true.

First of all, I see no reason to think you need to know the exact composition of the earth to say something worthwhile regarding seismic waves. The fact remains that seismic waves appear to travel through the interior of the earth. Their speed doesn't concern me, or what they travel through, just that they do. All you've said is that geologists don't know what the Earth is made of, which doesn't answer my question.

Second of all, all you've done to show me that mainstream geology is false is link an archive to a rambling geocities page, a website which talks elsewhere about aliens from other dimensions visiting Earth, and another one which talks elsewhere about cold fusion and alchemy occurring within living beings. I've admitted that I don't know very much about geoscience myself, so please forgive me if I decide to take the word of established academics over that of probable crackpots. (Aside from that, looking elsewhere on those sites I saw nothing about the flat earth, which makes me again question their relevance. They certainly don't answer the question I was asking).

Besides, as I've been trying to emphasize, the geology isn't what I'm interested in discussing. I'm interested in discussing the global conspiracy, of which geology would have to play a relatively small part. This thread has gone on for two whole pages, and I still haven't had anybody actually address the issue in its freaking title.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2016, 09:41:36 PM »
Obviously you are not a geologist yourself, otherwise you would have not stated such nonsense:

First of all, I see no reason to think you need to know the exact composition of the earth to say something worthwhile regarding seismic waves.

There is a correlation between density and seismic velocity in the case of gases: velocity decreases with increasing density due to the increased number of collisions.

    According to the relevant equations, the velocity of seismic waves will become slower, the denser the rocks through which they pass, if the rocks' elastic properties change in the same proportion as density. Since seismic waves accelerate with depth, this would imply that density decreases. However, scientists are convinced that the density of the rocks composing the earth's interior increases with depth. To get round this problem, they simply assume that the elastic properties change at a rate that more than compensates for the increase in density. As one textbook puts it:

Since the density of the Earth increases with depth you would expect the waves to slow down with increasing depth. Why, then, do both P- and S-waves speed up as they go deeper? This can only happen because the incompressibility and rigidity of the Earth increase faster with depth than density increases.

Thus geophysicists simply adjust the values for rigidity and incompressibility to fit in with their preconceptions regarding density and velocity distribution within the earth! In other words, their arguments are circular.


Seismologists sometimes draw contradictory conclusions from the same seismic data. For instance, two groups of geophysicists produced completely different pictures of the core-mantle boundary, where there are believed to be 'mountains' and 'valleys' as high or deep as 10 km. The two groups used virtually the same data but used different equations to process them. Seismologists also disagree on the rate of rotation of the inner core: some say it is rotating faster than the rest of the planet, others that it is rotating more slowly, and yet others that it rotates at the same speed!


David Pratt is one of the greatest scientists of the Western world: his articles on gravity and astrophysics are classic.


You should have never brought up the seismic wave subject: NOW, I CAN PROVE TO YOU THAT THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH IS FLAT BASED STRICTLY ON SEISMIC WAVES.

If the earth's interior were homogeneous, consisting of materials with the same properties throughout, seismic waves would travel in a straight line at a constant velocity. In reality, waves reach distant seismometers sooner than they would if the earth were homogeneous, and the greater the distance, the greater the acceleration. This implies that the waves arriving at the more distant stations have been travelling faster. Since seismic waves travel not only along the surface but also through the body of the earth, the earth's curvature will clearly result in stations more distant from an earthquake focus receiving waves that have passed through greater depths in the earth. From this it is inferred that the velocity of seismic waves increases with depth, due to changes in the properties of the earth's matter.

SINCE THE EARTH'S INTERIOR STRUCTURE IS MARKEDLY DIFFERENT THAN WAS ASSUMED, THE CALCULATIONS INVOLVING CURVATURE AND VELOCITY ARE SIMPLY WRONG.

THAT IS, THE CALCULATIONS INVOLVING MORE DISTANT STATIONS NO LONGER HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT CURVATURE: THE VELOCITY INCREASES DUE TO THE CHANGES IN THE PROPERTIES OF THE EARTH'S MATTER, AND NOT DUE TO CURVATURE.

Can you understand? Since the interior structure is completely different, the assumed calculations made taking curvature into consideration are wrong.

Once we exclude the curvature, we can simply explain the velocity of the seismic wave strictly based on the newly discovered properties of earth's matter, on A FLAT SURFACE OF THE EARTH.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 09:43:13 PM by sandokhan »

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2016, 09:55:11 PM »
Okay, so if this is the case, why aren't the people who spend their lives studying this stuff coming to the same conclusion? Furthermore, do any of the sources you linked actually claim the Earth is flat? If not, then they're clearly wrong as well, so why even link them?

Wezzoid

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2016, 01:07:45 AM »

Well, I am not a god-fearing Christian, so there's that. I'll engage in debate with people on either side and answer directly. Unfortunately, I don't always know what people are trying to say, and if I prod for details, people get upset. I can't help if they aren't good at making points. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about that.

Why would you get deleted and banned? At worst, this post is just in the wrong forum, as we have a dedicated forum for suggestions and concerns. I don't mind people criticizing me. Certainly not going to ban someone for it.

I apologise for misjudging you in thinking you would ban someone for opposing you too vociferously, and for making assumptions about your faith.

I stand by my claim that you stonewall, or deliberately evade, some difficult questions or arguments.

I will attempt to restate and simplify what the OP said, not meaning to speak for him but just because I find this question interesting and want people to actually discuss it. He can correct me if I misunderstood.

The argument goes along the lines that FE cannot be true because the conspiracy to keep it quiet for so long is impossibly complicated. Many people would have to have inside knowledge of the truth in order to do their jobs, and there would be frequent leaks and failures to maintain the deception, especially from countries not firmly under the thumb of TPTB. For instance, why hasnt North Korea spilled the beans just to spite the hated US?

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2016, 01:51:42 AM »


Well, I am not a god-fearing Christian, so there's that. I'll engage in debate with people on either side and answer directly. Unfortunately, I don't always know what people are trying to say, and if I prod for details, people get upset. I can't help if they aren't good at making points. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about that.

Why would you get deleted and banned? At worst, this post is just in the wrong forum, as we have a dedicated forum for suggestions and concerns. I don't mind people criticizing me. Certainly not going to ban someone for it.

I apologise for misjudging you in thinking you would ban someone for opposing you too vociferously, and for making assumptions about your faith.

I stand by my claim that you stonewall, or deliberately evade, some difficult questions or arguments.

I will attempt to restate and simplify what the OP said, not meaning to speak for him but just because I find this question interesting and want people to actually discuss it. He can correct me if I misunderstood.

The argument goes along the lines that FE cannot be true because the conspiracy to keep it quiet for so long is impossibly complicated. Many people would have to have inside knowledge of the truth in order to do their jobs, and there would be frequent leaks and failures to maintain the deception, especially from countries not firmly under the thumb of TPTB. For instance, why hasnt North Korea spilled the beans just to spite the hated US?

Presumably because NK does not have the means to provide any evidence. They can't even feed half of their population. I'm of the position that very few need to be involved in a conspiracy if it exists. Most simply don't know any better.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2016, 02:01:38 AM »
Junker, if you believe the number involved in the conspiracy is so small, can you speak to any of my specific concerns laid out in the OP? Sailors, pilots, meteorologists, etc? And among those who do know, what's their motivation for keeping it a secret?