Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« on: April 29, 2022, 07:33:02 PM »
On the Wiki page labeled The Conspiracy there is a great deal of space devoted to evidence for the conspiracy. I am not going to quibble with any of that, and for purposes of my questions we can assume all is accurate there as stated.

My questions will concern the motive, as this segment of the Wiki is rather brief (in comparison to the evidence segment), and I would like more information about it. Largely because I'm simply curious, but also because a passion of mine is understanding international relations and in particular international security (i.e., geopolitics and war, etc.). And the motive for the Space Travel Conspiracy, as explained in the Wiki, is entirely related.

Please note, this post is not intended as an argument with a declared thesis nor a self-contained challenge to any FE model or theory. This isn't intended as polemical at all. Rather, I'm curious about the reasons behind the motive and the potential explanations. I accept that there is likely not a single answer that the entire FE community will accept, so I'm happy to hear individual FEr's explanations and arguments.

Two important preliminary notes:
1. I accept RET. But I am exceptionally civil (I think I've more than proved that in these forums, despite being more of a lurker). Please reply in kind.
2. I am not intending to question the motives behind why those in the FE community might believe in The Conspiracy. Rather, I'm digging into the motives of the powers that be (in Washington D.C., etc.) as presented by the FE community. Square?

I begin:

I. The US Security Motive to Dominate Space
The US has a strong motive to dominate space, just as the Wiki presumes. At the beginning of the space race this was due to idiosyncrasies of the Cold War. In our current unipolar world there persists security logic for the US to dominate space. In fact, the necessity of dominating space is perhaps more critical now due to how a modern war involving the US would likely be conducted. The complex operations and tactics currently established in US military doctrine literally require satellites, as part of the so-called "Full-spectrum Dominance" concept. Normally, the capabilities enabled by satellite use is considered a strength because it provides precision guidance, precision timing, and superior communications. However...it also represents a constraint on the effectiveness of operations if we were to lose those satellites. Thus, we have security logic mandating domination of space (or at least of satellites). This is why, China, for its part, is developing or has developed "killer" satellites that can destroy others, which is a potential concern. It has been reported that some wargames done by the US navy have conducted them with the assumption that no satellites will be available (testing the possibility of China having destroyed them all prior to war) during a battle with China over Taiwan, and this alters the potential plans greatly.

II. The Inconsistency, or The US Security Motive to Dominate the Aether???
But...why would the US have any security logic or motive to fake the dominance of space if space (as defined in RET) doesn't exist? Here is the key quote from the Wiki (emphasis added).
"The purpose of NASA is to fake the concept of space travel to further America's militaristic dominance of space."

If space, as defined in RET with gravity enabling large bodies to orbit each other, and smaller satellites to orbit larger objects, doesn't exist, then where does the logic of the security needs flow from?

An analogy could be this:
1. Cthulhu is a titanic space monster who sleeps at the bottom of the Pacific ocean, but he is not real.
2. However, the US has a security imperative to protect Hawaii and the Western coast of the US from a potential attack if Cthulhu ever awakens.
3. Therefore, the US spends lots of money on weapons systems designed to specifically defend us from Cthulhu, but, crucially, these weapon systems are all completely faked. Everything about them is made up as a giant conspiracy.

After all, Cthulhu isn't real, so why would there be any need to actually make the special weapons that protect us from him?

Likewise, if RET space isn't real, what is the purpose of NASA and the pentagon to perpetuate a conspiracy to dominate a phenomena that doesn't even exist?  Put another way: If RET space exists, the security motive makes practical sense. If it doesn't, the security motive makes no sense.

Thus, I'm left with a very fundamental question: what is the 'real' motive for the conspiracy?  Why is NASA perpetuating it since it doesn't flow from any security logic?

or does it...? I can think of one potential security logic to lead to The Conspiracy:

III: Disinformation as Security Motive
I can think of one idea: A disinformation tactic to fool potential adversaries into thinking we're more capable than we are.

However, one key characteristic of effective disinformation in military intelligence is low cost. Since disinformation cannot be expected to always work, it's undesirable to overspend on it, rather than on hard assets that are expected to work (like actual weapon systems and personnel). A way to think of this principle is: if you spend the same amount of money on fooling your foe into believing you have an army as what you would have spent on an actual army, why not just build that army?  If you spent only on disinformation about your supposedly huge army, and that trickery fails and they attack you, you have no army to defend with. But if you spent the same money on that army, you can defend! The best way to use disinformation is as a low-cost tool to help preserve your hard (and more costly) assets.

This doesn't mean disinformation isn't critical to success just because it's low cost, however. For example, the allies spent a LOT of money on the planes, escorts, transports, weapons, and men who landed on the beaches of Normandy on June 6, 1944 as part of Operation Overlord. Many, perhaps most military historians argue that without Operation Fortitude, however, Overlord may have failed. Operation Fortitude was a huge deception campaign to trick Germany into thinking we would land in Pas de Calais (many miles north of Normandy). It worked, as Hitler didn't allow his generals to send any units from his massive defense of Pas de Calais until June 9th, three days after we were on Normandy - and the allies still had a tough time of invading! But the phantom armies and false radio signals and the like used as part of Fortitude required only a fraction of the cost and effort that the actual invasion did. This comports with how real disinformation works in warfare and international security.

So, my skepticism that The Conspiracy is to deceive our foes doesn't stem from the value of disinformation, rather from the suspicious cost-benefit analysis the pentagon would have to accept in order to spend such inordinate sums on "space travel." The US spends about 22 billion dollars on NASA every year. For sure, that's only a small portion of the 700+ billion dollars spent on the overall US military. But 22 billion on purely disinformation is a massive waste of money in a governmental area where massive waste is the norm!  (Don't get me started on the wasted dollars for the F-35. I believe every dollar spent on the F-35 has basically gone into the toilet). 

To put it into perspective, the 22 billion dollars that funds NASA could instead add 200 new F-35s to our airforce every year! Which do you think is more effective in a real war against, say, China: 2000 more actual F-35s (over 10 years) in our air force, or 10 more years of a disinformation campaign via NASA that tricks everyone into believing our military is way better than it is in reality? You don't have to know much about warfare to guess the answer.

Here are some final focusing questions for any FErs who wish to answer my questions or further explore the topic:

1. Am I simply wrong in my cost/benefit calculation, and 22 billion dollars (per year!) seems like a realistic amount to make the rest of the world believe our military is even better than it is?

2. Is there an aspect of security logic I failed to consider that creates the motives for Washington to keep NASA and The Conspiracy going?

3. Perhaps I'm wrong about the aether/space distinction. Is there a security logic to dominate the aether, rather than orbital space that I'm not aware of?  (Though this would presumably not include satellites, since those don't exist in most FET formulations).

Thanks for reading.


« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 07:39:54 PM by existoid »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10004
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2022, 09:29:43 PM »
Quote from: existoid
An analogy could be this:
1. Cthulhu is a titanic space monster who sleeps at the bottom of the Pacific ocean, but he is not real.
2. However, the US has a security imperative to protect Hawaii and the Western coast of the US from a potential attack if Cthulhu ever awakens.
3. Therefore, the US spends lots of money on weapons systems designed to specifically defend us from Cthulhu, but, crucially, these weapon systems are all completely faked. Everything about them is made up as a giant conspiracy.

After all, Cthulhu isn't real, so why would there be any need to actually make the special weapons that protect us from him?

Likewise, if RET space isn't real, what is the purpose of NASA and the pentagon to perpetuate a conspiracy to dominate a phenomena that doesn't even exist?  Put another way: If RET space exists, the security motive makes practical sense. If it doesn't, the security motive makes no sense.

In this world if Cthulhu was a part of their religion people may not accept the military declaring that Cthulhu didn't exist. People would just say that the military's submarine or sonar technology is primitive and that he could easily be hidden somewhere. It is far better for the the military and military contractors to ask for money from the public to defend against such threats. The military knows that increased defense funding and the associated development of new technologies would increase the country's security and status in general. The contractors know that increased defense funding is more money for them. The government gets to satisfy the public's fears. Politicians get to win elections, etc, etc.

If another country came along and said that they couldn't find Cthulhu and he therefore did not exist it would simply be rebutted that they they must have too primitive of technology to do it. It is better for that country to join the defense industry bandwagon.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 09:43:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2022, 10:09:28 PM »
Quote from: existoid
An analogy could be this:
1. Cthulhu is a titanic space monster who sleeps at the bottom of the Pacific ocean, but he is not real.
2. However, the US has a security imperative to protect Hawaii and the Western coast of the US from a potential attack if Cthulhu ever awakens.
3. Therefore, the US spends lots of money on weapons systems designed to specifically defend us from Cthulhu, but, crucially, these weapon systems are all completely faked. Everything about them is made up as a giant conspiracy.

After all, Cthulhu isn't real, so why would there be any need to actually make the special weapons that protect us from him?

Likewise, if RET space isn't real, what is the purpose of NASA and the pentagon to perpetuate a conspiracy to dominate a phenomena that doesn't even exist?  Put another way: If RET space exists, the security motive makes practical sense. If it doesn't, the security motive makes no sense.

In this world if Cthulhu was a part of their religion people may not accept the military declaring that Cthulhu didn't exist. People would just say that the military's submarine or sonar technology is primitive and that he could easily be hidden somewhere. It is far better for the the military and military contractors to ask for money from the public to defend against such threats. The military knows that increased defense funding and the associated development of new technologies would increase the country's security and status in general. The contractors know that increased defense funding is more money for them. The government gets to satisfy the public's fears. Politicians get to win elections, etc, etc.

If another country came along and said that they couldn't find Cthulhu and he therefore did not exist it would simply be rebutted that they they must have too primitive of technology to do it. It is better for that country to join the defense industry bandwagon.

I see. 

So if I understand you correctly, it's not so much about a domination of space, per se, but about the generalized excuse to keep funds for military and scientific uses high?   In other words, the more spent on NASA, the better off we are (new technologies discovered with military (and non-military) application, even though the rationale is made up? 

Let me accept that for arguments sake and follow with this question:

Do you believe that Washington doesn't believe that the public would want such funds spent if they knew space travel were a hoax?   In other words, the powers that be fear that if they revealed the truth NASA's funding would be cut entirely, even though it produces the public good of scientific and military advancement?






Offline jimster

  • *
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2022, 03:29:27 AM »
What is the motive of Spacex?

What is the motive of the Japanese Space Agency, and India Space Agency?

When the Chinese decided to have a space program, did NASA go over there, explain the situation, and get them to go along with the hoax? For what motive? Or did they have a missile go splat against the dome, contact NASA and ask them what to say? I find the image of a meeting such as this where one side is revealing the earth is flat and securing the cooperation of someone grown up in RE world, even more fascinating when they come out of the meeting faking RE without missing a beat.

If one speculates about such a motive? Details and corroboration, or just speculation?
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Re: Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2022, 05:04:49 PM »
I do want to add that I'm highly sympathetic to the concept of dishonest motives of political and bureaucratic leaders. I accept Public Choice Theory, which in brief states that those in government face the same incentives and constraints on their behavior as all of us as described in a market setting or economy. Namely, they can face strong incentives to mislead the public even on important issues, and typically do so.

However, when this happens, it is not done in a vacuum and there are countervailing politicians and bureaucrats (or other non-governmental organizations) with incentives to point out the flaws or misleading information presented.

Thus, if NASA were a big hoax, there would be some pressure on some politicians to reveal this. But there's been none in many, many decades, which strongly implies to me this is not an example of misinformation from our leaders.

Offline scomato

  • *
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
Re: Question on the motives of The Space Travel Conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2022, 07:18:30 PM »
What is the motive of Spacex?

What is the motive of the Japanese Space Agency, and India Space Agency?

When the Chinese decided to have a space program, did NASA go over there, explain the situation, and get them to go along with the hoax? For what motive? Or did they have a missile go splat against the dome, contact NASA and ask them what to say? I find the image of a meeting such as this where one side is revealing the earth is flat and securing the cooperation of someone grown up in RE world, even more fascinating when they come out of the meeting faking RE without missing a beat.

If one speculates about such a motive? Details and corroboration, or just speculation?

It must be really disappointing for the astronauts, aerospace engineers, and scientists who spend 10+ years training to work in this field only to be presented with a Powerpoint document at the very end telling you that your entire worldview is a lie, and the Earth is actually how it is described 2000 years ago by Levantine monks. Even more incredible that none of these people leak this information.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 07:20:06 PM by scomato »