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Offline stack

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2022, 10:31:50 PM »
Isn’t it more plausible that you are wrong
Pay attention, just this once, I beg of you. The question was whether or not someone lying is the only option. It's a "yes/no" question.

I'll rephrase then. Let's say no one is lying. Then they are either right or they are wrong/mistaken. Is it more plausible they are right or is it more plausible they are wrong/mistaken?

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2022, 10:36:39 PM »
but it is in fact being generated on earth and fed into the data stream somewhere
Seems like a strange assumption to make out of nowhere. I thought you were all about choosing reality?
If someone is analyzing data claimed to be coming from Mars, and it is coming from somewhere else (as the FE view insists), then where would that be if not somewhere on earth?   How can that be explained by (as you say) "they could all be wrong"?
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2022, 10:56:48 PM »
Is it more plausible they are right or is it more plausible they are wrong/mistaken?
Indeterminate based on the data presented.

and it is coming from somewhere else
What a strange assumption to make out of nowhere.

(as the FE view insists)
You don't know the first thing about "the FE view" or what it "insists" on. It would be a good idea to develop some understanding before making loud assertions. Again, I'd have hoped you'd choose reality.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2022, 10:59:39 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2022, 11:44:40 PM »
and it is coming from somewhere else
What a strange assumption to make out of nowhere.
The claim was that the signals are coming from a probe sitting on Mars.  You claim they could be "mistaken".  So if the data stream is not coming from Mars, then it must be "coming from somewhere else".  How is that an assumption?

(as the FE view insists)
You don't know the first thing about "the FE view" or what it "insists" on. It would be a good idea to develop some understanding before making loud assertions. Again, I'd have hoped you'd choose reality.
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).  If FE is true, then none of that works.   So do we have space craft on Mars or not?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2022, 11:48:04 PM by ichoosereality »
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2022, 07:55:20 AM »
The claim was that the signals are coming from a probe sitting on Mars.
That is one of the claims, yes. Of course, it's not the one currently under discussion. Are you really so far removed from reality as to ignore all discussion between AATW and me and just make up your own argument for me?

If FE is true, then none of that works.
A baseless conjecture, which also happens to be false. How very anti-reality of you.

Once more, on the off chance that it will stick this time: you know nothing about FET. If you really want to sit in your bubble, pass on all learning opportunities, and scream about how FET totally proposes things it doesn't, that's your prerogative; but please do so on a personal blog, metabunk, or reddit. When posting here, you're expected to understand the subject matter.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 07:58:18 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2022, 08:36:02 AM »
The claim was that the signals are coming from a probe sitting on Mars.
That is one of the claims, yes. Of course, it's not the one currently under discussion. Are you really so far removed from reality as to ignore all discussion between AATW and me and just make up your own argument for me?
Let me refresh your memory

Surely someone has to be lying here. Either my ex-colleague, or her bosses - or someone up the chain.
Not necessarily. They could all be wrong.
As usually you do not actually have a response but just play games.   If AATW's ex-colleague is not lying then the data is coming from somewhere and someone has to know where.  If that place isn't Mars then it is clearly NOT the case that they are "all wrong" but some are lying about it.  Its not that complicated.

If FE is true, then none of that works.
A baseless conjecture, which also happens to be false. How very anti-reality of you.
Rocket trajectories and orbits (even partial orbits) are calculated for a round earth and trips to Mars are calculated for the std model where Mars is 300 Million miles or so away (when at the optimum time for a visit at least) clearly that does not match the FE view of planets circulating above the flat earth.  So again just answer the simple question, has NASA sent space craft to mars, some of which have deposited landers/rovers there that continue to transmit back to earth, or not?  Its a simple question, but I doubt you will answer it.

You have clearly painted yourself into a corner.  If we have craft on Mars than FE is wrong, if we do not have craft on Mars then someone must be lying about the data stream AATW's friend is analyzing. 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 09:01:04 AM by ichoosereality »
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2022, 09:48:03 AM »
Let me refresh your memory
Your abysmal reading comprehension is not my problem. If you didn't understand something I said, you're welcome to ask (in other words: you have the option of choosing reality rather than your imagination). Trying to mansplain to me what I meant by my own words doesn't make you look anywhere near as smart as you think it does.

clearly that does not match the FE view
Once again - you do not know what the "FE view" is. You invented one for yourself. It won't stand here. You can learn about FE and start to address the reality of the situation, or you can stop posting here and go to metabunk where you belong.

You have clearly painted yourself into a corner.
If you do not have anything to contribute to this thread, do not post again. I've given you plenty of opportunities to choose reality, but this time it's the last one for realsies.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 09:49:43 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Action80

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2022, 10:08:34 AM »
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).
What?

It is more plausible you cannot even get your own set of "facts," straight, but have no problem dictating the "FE" view.

Go learn RE some more.

It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2022, 10:23:17 AM »
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).
What?
What exactly do you not understand?  The TRIP takes nearly 300Million miles (something like 292.5 if you want more accuracy).  https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8785/nasas-perseverance-rover-is-midway-to-mars/
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

Offline Action80

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2022, 10:57:35 AM »
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).
What?
What exactly do you not understand?  The TRIP takes nearly 300Million miles (something like 292.5 if you want more accuracy).  https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8785/nasas-perseverance-rover-is-midway-to-mars/

That you profess to believe that doubling the average distance is somehow resulting in high efficiency is only a statement of the depth of delusion you are in.

Sad.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2022, 11:28:34 AM »
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).
What?
What exactly do you not understand?  The TRIP takes nearly 300Million miles (something like 292.5 if you want more accuracy).  https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8785/nasas-perseverance-rover-is-midway-to-mars/

That you profess to believe that doubling the average distance is somehow resulting in high efficiency is only a statement of the depth of delusion you are in.

Sad.
Sigh.

Look, ichoosereality has made a mistake here. He's confused the distance to Mars to the distance the Perseverance Rover took.
BuT SuReLy ThAt ShOuLd Be ThE SaMe If It'S GoInG To MaRs?!!!11!
Well, no. Because Mars is orbiting the sun, Perseverance took 7 months to get there so it's not like just planning a route from A to B on earth where A and B are a fixed distance apart from one another.
It's a lot more complex than that.

BUT, the point he's making is pretty clear. The NASA claim is that they sent a craft on a journey of nearly 300 million miles to land on another planet. I've not seen a FE model where that would be possible.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline Action80

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2022, 12:22:09 PM »
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).
What?
What exactly do you not understand?  The TRIP takes nearly 300Million miles (something like 292.5 if you want more accuracy).  https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8785/nasas-perseverance-rover-is-midway-to-mars/

That you profess to believe that doubling the average distance is somehow resulting in high efficiency is only a statement of the depth of delusion you are in.

Sad.
Sigh.

Look, ichoosereality has made a mistake here. He's confused the distance to Mars to the distance the Perseverance Rover took.
BuT SuReLy ThAt ShOuLd Be ThE SaMe If It'S GoInG To MaRs?!!!11!
Well, no. Because Mars is orbiting the sun, Perseverance took 7 months to get there so it's not like just planning a route from A to B on earth where A and B are a fixed distance apart from one another.
It's a lot more complex than that.

BUT, the point he's making is pretty clear. The NASA claim is that they sent a craft on a journey of nearly 300 million miles to land on another planet. I've not seen a FE model where that would be possible.
No, he didn't make a mistake in writing.

He wrote "trip."

His mistake is believing that nonsense to begin with.

The NASA claim comes from human beings who have the same difficulty in making sense of how to wash dishes in their homes or how to brush their goddamn teeth properly, let alone making sense of what the universe is like beyond what they can see with their own two eyes.

Experts?

Hardly.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 12:36:52 PM by Action80 »
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2022, 12:44:45 PM »
His mistake is believing that nonsense to begin with.

Why not actually debate? I could just say “your mistake is believing in FE nonsense” but I’m not going to because we were having a discussion.

Are you supposing that the entire science of orbital mechanics and transfers is fabricated?

All the evidence (here on earth) for space travel that could POSSIBLY exist DOES exist. Photos, jobs, entire sciences, launches, tracking. But because you can’t go to Mars and look at the rover itself, the whole thing must not be real?

Offline Action80

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Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2022, 02:43:44 PM »
His mistake is believing that nonsense to begin with.

Why not actually debate? I could just say “your mistake is believing in FE nonsense” but I’m not going to because we were having a discussion.

Are you supposing that the entire science of orbital mechanics and transfers is fabricated?

All the evidence (here on earth) for space travel that could POSSIBLY exist DOES exist. Photos, jobs, entire sciences, launches, tracking. But because you can’t go to Mars and look at the rover itself, the whole thing must not be real?
I don't care if you think I am making a mistake in what I believe.

Calling a belief foolish is debate.

I believe in what I can sense and mentally fathom.

I can point to the things present around me, occupying the areas I have been or am in, and state, "I understand ..."

And that is just for a very small portion of things.

To claim I can look at things I do not have access to and lay any sort of claim consisting of, "THIS IS REALITY," is just nutso thinking.

There is no such thing as "space travel," except the space defined as within the limits of the atmoplane, and some guy named Jules Verne back in the 1800's, with his huge fan base carrying on the tradition.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2022, 03:26:45 PM »
There is no such thing as "space travel," except the space defined as within the limits of the atmoplane, and some guy named Jules Verne back in the 1800's, with his huge fan base carrying on the tradition.

What, exactly, is the “problem” with the idea of space travel? Nothing about it defies any observable, understandable physics. It strikes a nerve with some people as this impossible “sci-fi” thing but it’s become a fairly mundane part of life.

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2022, 03:36:15 PM »
It really does feel like that sort of logic, making it your literal belief, is jumping the gun and being too eager to believe something.

I could write a very convincing book on how space travel is fake and how the earth is flat. Do I LITERALLY believe that space travel is fake and the earth is flat? No. I can talk about HOW things can be faked without just saying “well it’s fake because it’s the truth!”

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2022, 03:52:35 PM »
There is no such thing as "space travel," except the space defined as within the limits of the atmoplane, and some guy named Jules Verne back in the 1800's, with his huge fan base carrying on the tradition.

What, exactly, is the “problem” with the idea of space travel? Nothing about it defies any observable, understandable physics. It strikes a nerve with some people as this impossible “sci-fi” thing but it’s become a fairly mundane part of life.
The only problem, it seems, is that most common FE models are incompatible with space travel. So the only logical thing to do, if you're going to cling to FE, is to dismiss it all as fake.
This is what I was getting at in this post earlier in the thread https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19229.msg261634#msg261634
If you're going to believe in FE then you need to think through the consequences of that. One of those is having to believe that space travel and exploration as fake. There are issues with that - GPS works, satellite TV works, the ISS is visible from the ground, rocket launches can be observed. It just feels like it's all put in a box marked "FAKE!" and not investigated in any depth.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2022, 05:35:35 PM »
Let me refresh your memory
Your abysmal reading comprehension is not my problem.
As usual you offer no actual evidence to support your accusations.  You obviously just like making them. Having to actually offer reasoning and backup is totally inconsistent with the FE view in the first place so I suppose it should come as no surprise that you take a similar approach in all your interactions.
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2022, 05:37:50 PM »
Look, ichoosereality has made a mistake here. He's confused the distance to Mars to the distance the Perseverance Rover took.
BuT SuReLy ThAt ShOuLd Be ThE SaMe If It'S GoInG To MaRs?!!!11!
Well, no. Because Mars is orbiting the sun, Perseverance took 7 months to get there so it's not like just planning a route from A to B on earth where A and B are a fixed distance apart from one another.
It's a lot more complex than that.

BUT, the point he's making is pretty clear. The NASA claim is that they sent a craft on a journey of nearly 300 million miles to land on another planet. I've not seen a FE model where that would be possible.
I think I always made it clear I was referring to the total distance traveled, if not I apologize for the confusion.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 06:04:26 PM by ichoosereality »
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2022, 05:53:41 PM »
We send space craft to Mars (a trip of about 300 million miles) based on the standard solar system view (i.e. RE).
....
What exactly do you not understand?  The TRIP takes nearly 300Million miles (something like 292.5 if you want more accuracy).  https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8785/nasas-perseverance-rover-is-midway-to-mars/

That you profess to believe that doubling the average distance is somehow resulting in high efficiency is only a statement of the depth of delusion you are in.

Sad.
Covering distance in the vacuum of space once at speed is essential free, you can coast forever.  It's accelerating (to gain or reduce speed) that takes fuel and hence is expensive.  Reaching the destination in a reasonable time by coasting as much as possible and accelerating as little as possible is the goal.

No, he didn't make a mistake in writing.
He wrote "trip."
Correct, thank you.

His mistake is believing that nonsense to begin with.

The NASA claim comes from human beings who have the same difficulty in making sense of how to wash dishes in their homes or how to brush their goddamn teeth properly, let alone making sense of what the universe is like beyond what they can see with their own two eyes.
If you do not believe in the existence of anything you have not seen with your own eyes, how many places on teh earth have you visited?  Do the others not exist?  You must not think anything at the atomic/molecular scale exists either.  How do you explain the vast ways that we manipulate that world for the chemistry of pretty much everything around you to atomic power, or electromagnetic radiation?   When you are listening to the radio or watching television is that some sort of magic?  Likewise for the electrons wizzing around the device you are looking at right now.  None of them are visible, so how is your computer working?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 06:01:40 PM by ichoosereality »
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.