Do debates ever convert anyone?
« on: February 15, 2022, 11:57:35 PM »
RE here. Has any flat earther ever been convinced that the earth is a sphere as the result of these forum debates? Or has any round earther ever been convinced that the earth is flat?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2022, 12:06:35 AM »
I don't think debates will convince anyone in an audience since they don't generally research it themselves to generate counter arguments, and generally don't know what specific evidence does and does not exist at a glance to make a good conclusion.

But you can convince yourself. I wasn't so sure about it when I first started arguing for FE. Then many debates later after hearing and discussing and researching it all I became certain about it, and even went the extra effort to chronicle the information I found in the Wiki. It is difficult to visualize what evidence and information does not exist, however, which is also a big part of the journey.

Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2022, 12:24:49 AM »
Thanks for your reply, Tom. You mentioned a little about how you came over to the flat side of the fence. Do you mind telling me a little more about that journey? I’m not here in an attempt to mock you or anyone else, but FET seems laughably unrealistic to me and I’m just curious how someone comes to believe it.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2022, 05:07:04 AM »
No.
No one has converted or changed ideas.
You're either an RE, an FE, or a troll.
Most are trolls.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2022, 12:09:58 PM »
"I grew up believing in the globe model."

^I could use this statement to describe my view of the world we occupy, but is it really an accurate written description? Some will say they know and belief doesn't enter into the discussion at all.

Much of my life has been one of challenging the status quo and institutional conventions.

So, I will choose another way:

"I grew up in a world surrounded by globe earth depictions attempting to inculcate me into a specific world view."

I have converted to the flat earth model as a result of my participation here at this forum.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 12:20:13 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2022, 12:12:18 PM »
I’m not here in an attempt to mock you or anyone else, but FET seems laughably unrealistic...
^Seems to be a rather clear cut example of a high degree of dissonance resonating in your messaging.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2022, 12:15:43 PM »
I grew up believing in the globe model, but have converted to the flat earth model as a result of my participation here at this forum.

^ See?  Troll.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2022, 01:15:31 PM »
Much of my life has been one of challenging the status quo and institutional conventions.

Why?   and...

What else do you challenge?


I have converted to the flat earth model as a result of my participation here at this forum.

Do you participate anywhere else? If so, where?
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Offline Action80

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2022, 01:41:46 PM »
Much of my life has been one of challenging the status quo and institutional conventions.

Why?   and...

What else do you challenge?
I was indoctrinated in a fine public school, that is why.

Status quo and institutional conventions is fairly encompassing.

An excerpt from my daily hymnal:

"I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half-alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie"
I have converted to the flat earth model as a result of my participation here at this forum.
Do you participate anywhere else? If so, where?
Lodge meetings first Tuesday of every month, 7:00 pm.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 01:53:03 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2022, 04:15:36 PM »
Thanks for your reply, Tom. You mentioned a little about how you came over to the flat side of the fence. Do you mind telling me a little more about that journey? I’m not here in an attempt to mock you or anyone else, but FET seems laughably unrealistic to me and I’m just curious how someone comes to believe it.

The idea of quantum entanglement can be argued to be an absurdity, or a very logical consequence of reality. The thing that prevents you from making or seeing the opposing argument to your position on that subject would be merely an ignorance on your part. When you argue based on what you feel is "unrealistic" it is an argument from ignorance, dismissing a possible knowledge because you do not know something about it and may seem outside the norm.

Next, after accepting that reality may be outside the norm, you just need to determine if some of the things and topics in FE are in the category of possible, even if you do not yet think it is probable. If it is possible it means that more research is needed. You should be very interested that there are some things that are possible outside of the standard model we were taught is beyond argument.

For me it was originally Rowbotham's book that gave a basis and entry-point, but today the Wiki fulfills the modern requirement for the entry-point needed: Three Body Problem, Moon Tilt Illusion, Michelson-Morley, Sagnac Effect, Equivalence Principle Tests, Time Dilation by Latitude, Water Convexity Tests, and on and on. If you accept that there are some good points in there, each of these topics spells out a letter in a sentence. The sentence for me is "The Earth is Flat" and not "Unknown Coincidence".

T.H. Huxley wrote: “ Sit down before facts like a child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing. ”

People of today are not so different from people of the past, and in the past there are many examples for why blind trust is wrong. Thomas Edison complained that scientists of his day warped things to suit their narrative, and that he had to conduct fundamental research from the ground up to invent his version of the lightbulb. The Wright Brothers said the same thing about the invention of the airplane. They did not make progress until they threw out the science of flight and started from experiment to experience. And those were about things people could actually test, unlike an astronomy.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 07:23:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2022, 07:13:32 PM »
“^Seems to be a rather clear cut example of a high degree of dissonance resonating in your messaging.”

I can see why it looks that way, but allow me to clarify. I do not intend to ever mock a person personally for believing in a flat earth. My issue is with FET itself. I’d like to be able to discuss this topic without personal attacks, is what I meant.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2022, 08:16:49 PM »
“^Seems to be a rather clear cut example of a high degree of dissonance resonating in your messaging.”

I can see why it looks that way, but allow me to clarify. I do not intend to ever mock a person personally for believing in a flat earth. My issue is with FET itself. I’d like to be able to discuss this topic without personal attacks, is what I meant.
I suggest the upper forums.  Down here is typically non-FE discussion.  Tom there can talk your ear off (or eyes I guess) about the subject.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2022, 08:47:31 PM »
The thing that prevents you from making or seeing the opposing argument to your position on that subject would be merely an ignorance on your part. When you argue based on what you feel is "unrealistic" it is an argument from ignorance, dismissing a possible knowledge because you do not know something about it and may seem outside the norm.

To assume that I don't see the opposing argument (FET) because I'm ignorant/uninformed about it, was, ironically, you doing the same in regards to me. I've done sufficient research to make an informed decision about which team I'm on. But you did not know that. You just assumed I was uninformed on the topic. I find FET "unrealistic" specifically because I have knowledge about both sides of the issue, not because I blindly follow the norm or trust my feelings more than data and fact. So, being ignorant of my background, you assumed I was ignorant and uninformed, and thus ignorantly formed an uninformed opinion of me  :) No hard feelings.

But, back to my original question. The reason I asked it was because I have an interest in discussing FET, but I think I may end up not doing so because it feels pointless. Everyone on both sides appears pretty firmly planted. I do love a lively debate, but things feel a little too defensive around here for my taste. This is understandable, since most discussions started by REs are, naturally, intended to disprove FET. I can't say I'd be significantly different, other than understanding I'm not going to actually convert anyone. I'd imagine people who genuinely want to come over to the flat side pop in from time to time and find what they're looking for, but to those of us who do not find FET plausible, these forums may be an exercise in futility. The only topic that might be fun to explore is whether a spherical Earth can be disproved by Flat Earthers. Has that been sufficiently explored already? So much attention is given to attempting to debunk FET that flipping the script sounds more interesting to me.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2022, 09:09:48 PM »
The thing that prevents you from making or seeing the opposing argument to your position on that subject would be merely an ignorance on your part. When you argue based on what you feel is "unrealistic" it is an argument from ignorance, dismissing a possible knowledge because you do not know something about it and may seem outside the norm.

To assume that I don't see the opposing argument (FET) because I'm ignorant/uninformed about it, was, ironically, you doing the same in regards to me.

I was talking about quantum mechanics, which many people agree is weird and wonky:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
The idea of quantum entanglement can be argued to be an absurdity, or a very logical consequence of reality. The thing that prevents you from making or seeing the opposing argument to your position on that subject would be merely an ignorance on your part.

You can't dismiss something because you don't understand how it could happen, or dismiss something based on your personal version of what might be logical.  Most people agree that we are ignorant of Quantum Mechanics to be able to fully appreciate its reality. There may be a logic to Quantum Mechanics that we don't know about.

If someone applies their personal logic to it and finds it to be absurd, should we just dismiss QM? No. 'Logic' and 'realistic' have no place for discerning reality.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2022, 10:26:39 AM »
The idea of quantum entanglement can be argued to be an absurdity, or a very logical consequence of reality
I don't know what this means. I mean, quantum theory is a bit crazy in the sense that the predictions and consequences of it don't conform to what we experience in our day to day lives. Even Einstein called Quantum Entanglement "spooky action at a distance."
But the results of the experiments are clear and have practical uses. Quantum computing is in its infancy but it has been used to generate real results. That means that it doesn't matter whether you think entanglement is intuitive or nonsense. Reality and truth are determined through observation and experiment, they are objective and independent of your opinions or feelings.

Quote
Next, after accepting that reality may be outside the norm, you just need to determine if some of the things and topics in FE are in the category of possible
Right. And a lot of them are, actually. But not all. There is no way, for example, to map out where places are and the known distances between them on a flat plane. It's just not geometrically possible. The FE response is to simply deny that we do know the distance between places. Given that we have GPS, which you acknowledge works, and a global travel/shipping industry that demonstrably gets stuff around, that's quite a stretch. I asked you a few times how you think GPS can accurately tell you your co-ordinates if it doesn't know where those co-ordinates are in relation to other co-ordinates and you repeatedly dodged the question.

There are other things which are possible. UA could be a thing and works quite well as a replacement for gravity. But then we observe variations in gravity. The FE response is either to deny those variations exist or hypothesise a separate mechanism which explains them. And that's what FE seems to be - a combination of denying things when they don't fit your model or hypothesising mechanisms to explain them. You simultaneously claim that you did the Bishop experiment - the results of which you have provided no evidence for. But you also hypothesise EA which render those alleged results impossible.

Rowbotham's book makes all kinds of crazy claims like the moon is self illuminating and translucent. He makes it clear in the book that his motive is religious fundamentalism. There's a reason he has been largely forgotten by history.

A lot of people fall in to FE because of a combination of a conspiracy theory mindset and, frankly, ignorance. If you love a good conspiracy theory AND you are ignorant of science and the globe earth model then that's a dangerous combination. Some of the Wiki articles you mention demonstrate some of that ignorance. The three body problem has no analytic solution but there are numerical solutions which do a perfectly good job. The moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an optical illusion - a line which apparently arcs up and over the sky like a rainbow is in fact straight and it's trivial to satisfy yourself of that fact. These things have been explained to you multiple times.

I can see how people fall in to the FE rabbit hole. The interesting question is how people get out of it. Ranty FE did recently and he did so by doing his own analysis on images and realising they weren't possible on a FE. But for most people who fall into FE it seems impossible to get out of because they don't analyse evidence objectively. Any evidence which shows FE to be impossible is dismissed or simply denied. Any claims which seem to back up FE are accepted unquestioningly. And that is why, to answer the OP, debates don't convert any FE people. Because they have the conspiracy theory mindset and it robs them of the objectivity needed to assess things correctly.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2022, 10:41:24 AM »
I was talking about quantum mechanics

... but the OP was asking you about FE...
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2022, 10:54:06 AM »
I've done sufficient research to make an informed decision about which team I'm on.
You have demonstrated otherwise. Understanding the subject will be a prerequisite to you having a meaningful discussion.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Offline Action80

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2022, 10:57:01 AM »
There is no way, for example, to map out where places are and the known distances between them on a flat plane.
And yet, I look at my flat map and it reflects the exact distance to my local grocer.

Unbelievable.

To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2022, 11:04:01 AM »
There is no way, for example, to map out where places are and the known distances between them on a flat plane.
And yet, I look at my flat map and it reflects the exact distance to my local grocer.

Unbelievable.
That is completely believable, unless your grocer is 7000 miles away.
The distortion in distances and land mass shapes is only noticeable on a macro scale.
This is what I was talking about above when I said ignorance. That isn't meant as an insult, but if you're not trolling then that's what your post betraying.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Do debates ever convert anyone?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2022, 11:19:01 AM »
For me it was originally Rowbotham's book ....   Water Convexity Tests ...  sentence for me is "The Earth is Flat" and not "Unknown Coincidence"."

Direct, personal observation for me directly contradicts Rowbotham's water convexity test, so the sentence for me is "it CANNOT be flat".

Happy to show you, but it's all in my YouTube videos, and last time I posted links to them, I got slapped down for self-promotion... shall I PM them to you?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?