Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #240 on: March 04, 2022, 09:14:45 PM »
If you have found a fully working flat Earth model then why are you just talking about in these forums??  You should be getting in touch with Nature magazine cos it will be a truly revolutionary Earth model.  How come no one else has come up with it after all this time? Have you got access to resources, equipment and budgets that no one else has?

It is exactly the sort of thing that Nature magazine is all about. At least it is if it really does work as well as well as you claim it does.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 09:20:14 PM by astroman »

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #241 on: March 06, 2022, 01:10:50 AM »
I have a question for troolon: Does your transform preserve topology?  My guess is that it doesn't.  I would be suspicious of using a transform that doesn't preserve topology in physics, to describe the shape of things in the world.

Topology is the study of the things that are constant regardless of how much you stretch or compress a shape.  According to topology, a donut and a typical coffee mug are identical: they're both a class of shapes known as a "torus."  A sphere is not a torus, and can't be shaped into one without tearing or gluing.  So, when talking about the shape of things, I'm suspicious of any transform that does not preserve topology.

Just because you can define a transform between two things does not mean that they are the same.  They're just mappable.  For example, you can map the positive integers onto the set of all rational numbers, and vice versa.  That means the two sets have the same cardinality (the same number of elements.)  But it doesn't mean they're identical in every way and share all properties.

Likewise, Troolon's transform shows that we can map a spherical Earth and its cosmos into a flat Earth and its cosmos, and vice versa.  But that doesn't mean the two share all properties.  In this case, I suspect the topology differs, though I'm not sure of that.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 01:19:51 AM by drand48 »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2022, 10:51:23 AM »
I have a question for troolon: Does your transform preserve topology?  My guess is that it doesn't. [...] In this case, I suspect the topology differs, though I'm not sure of that.
The zeroth step here would be forming a hypothesis. Where do you think it differs, and why? An essay on topology is largely redundant if all you have is undefined "suspicions".
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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #243 on: March 06, 2022, 04:00:55 PM »
I have a question for troolon: Does your transform preserve topology?  My guess is that it doesn't. [...] In this case, I suspect the topology differs, though I'm not sure of that.
The zeroth step here would be forming a hypothesis. Where do you think it differs, and why? An essay on topology is largely redundant if all you have is undefined "suspicions".
I just asked a question.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #244 on: March 06, 2022, 10:34:32 PM »
I just asked a question.
OK. The answer is "yes" until you present some evidence to the contrary.

Though, in the future, if you only mean to ask a question, you should limit yourself to just asking it. When more than 95% of your post is irrelevant rambling, you know you've gone way off the mark.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 10:37:31 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #245 on: March 08, 2022, 11:00:04 PM »
Turning the earth into a different shape and then ignoring the distortion of distance, bending the light rays however they need to be bent, is certainly possible, although no answer for where is Sigme Octantus? Incorporating that into the model produce a rotating bent light tube not consistent with any known physics except the need to explain FET.

A "fully working FE model" would have to include that, and be able to show what you see from the surface of the earth. It would show how when it is sunset in Denver how a person in Salt Lake City sees daylight over the entire dome and someone in St Louis sees dark with stars at the same time over the entire dome from the perspective of someone outside the dome.

A model of RET can make sense from an external perspective. A model of FET has a dome that is simultaneously light blue and black at the same time, with different stars in northern and southern hemisphere. And Sigma Octantus becomes a ring with light tubes that bend the light to the observed elevation and stop you from seeing the circle except for the pint directly south of you.

Rube Goldberg.
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #246 on: April 29, 2022, 05:05:58 PM »
@OP

There is a problem with the flat monopole map regarding the necessarily diverging lines of longitude the further south one travels from the equator.

In brief, if longitudes kept getting wider as they go further, then every one of the thousands of WW2 battles, flight missions, and dogfights reported by US, Japanese, British, and Australia airmen and sailors that took place south of the equator must have happened quite differently than all available evidence. The planes that flew to and from carriers (and air bases on islands south of the equator) relied on plotting charts with accurate scales for latitude and longitude, and these plotting charts (of which copies are still extant and can be reviewed) do NOT show diverging longitudes, but longitudes that comport with the generally accepted globe model. (Edit: to clarify: incorrect plotting charts would result in an astonishing and intractably overwhelmingly majority of planes flying south of the equator in WW2 to be lost at sea because they could not find their carrier or air base in the vast waters).

More in depth analysis in my original post on this topic here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=16428.msg212915#msg212915


To all (especially the mods) - I apologize if this seems at first glance off topic, given that OP presented his model as one that can explain all the observations of physics. I argue that this is on topic because it is in reaction to the topic and summarizing sentence of the OP:
"I believe to have found a fully working flat earth model." I believe OP has not done so, because of my understanding of WW2 in the Pacific. Ergo, it's not a "fully working" one in my judgment.



« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 05:14:23 PM by existoid »

Offline jimster

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #247 on: April 29, 2022, 07:56:17 PM »
I think we can actually agree on this.

If you bend the light however you need to, cancel the light where you need to (light comes off the sun only in certain directions), and ignore the problem of distance, then yes, the earth can be any shape.

At present, you have no explanation for why the same dome has Polaris everywhere, yet individual observers see it as directly north, while others see the entire dome as light blue with no stars, and yet others see an entirely different set of stars at the same time. You have no explanation for why longitude lines diverge when real life measurements reveals they converge.

RE geometry explains all this with conventional geometry, light travels straight in a vacuum, the sun radiates in all directions, and distance works consistently everywhere.

Are we all agreed on this?
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

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Offline Clyde Frog

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #248 on: April 29, 2022, 08:31:03 PM »
Looks like neither of you read what OP has been writing. If you spend a few minutes actually reading, instead of knee-jerk reacting to yell "NO, FE BAD", you may just discover that the model is quite literally still the same model as the globe. Because it is still the globe model. OP spent a lot of time responding very clearly, and was very patient, and it's clear the folks that have had the most vocal opposition aren't even showing the slightest bit of respect by reading what they have written.

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #249 on: April 29, 2022, 08:41:43 PM »
Looks like neither of you read what OP has been writing. If you spend a few minutes actually reading, instead of knee-jerk reacting to yell "NO, FE BAD", you may just discover that the model is quite literally still the same model as the globe. Because it is still the globe model. OP spent a lot of time responding very clearly, and was very patient, and it's clear the folks that have had the most vocal opposition aren't even showing the slightest bit of respect by reading what they have written.

OP did not contend with the divergence of longitude, only that on either model the same place names on a map would be at the same lines of longitude, and that one can use the same type of calculation to derive those points regardless of the map projection used. My intrusion into the discussion adds a wrinkle not yet discussed in detail, I think, because the application of the plotting graphs in WW2 planes required the lines of longitude to not diverge.

My argument is a little more sophisticated than "NO, FE BAD" thank you very much.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 08:53:08 PM by existoid »

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Offline Clyde Frog

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #250 on: April 29, 2022, 09:04:04 PM »
Looks like neither of you read what OP has been writing. If you spend a few minutes actually reading, instead of knee-jerk reacting to yell "NO, FE BAD", you may just discover that the model is quite literally still the same model as the globe. Because it is still the globe model. OP spent a lot of time responding very clearly, and was very patient, and it's clear the folks that have had the most vocal opposition aren't even showing the slightest bit of respect by reading what they have written.

OP did not contend with the divergence of longitude
Yes. Yes, he did.

Quote
My argument is a little more sophisticated than "NO, FE BAD" thank you very much.
It might have been, had you actually read what OP was proposing. This is still a globe, and those lines converge using the correct distance metric.

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #251 on: April 29, 2022, 10:02:38 PM »

OP did not contend with the divergence of longitude

Quote
Yes. Yes, he did.


Well, no he didn't, at least to my understanding.   I could be mistaken, but I'll explain why I don't think I am:

To cut to the chase, in discussing lines of lat/long troolon mentions that "The map has a different distance metric. Distance is just a formula, it's up to you to choose a meaningful one." And then in response to replies to that he writes, "For the AE map, the conventional distance formula for coordinates expressed as (lat, long) does work as lat/long are preserved by the projection."  And then later, "i'm trying to make a model of reality, i'm not trying to make a map.
- Coordinate transformations can turn any shape into any other shape
- physics works with coordinate trnasformations
-> physics can be made to work on any shape universe (have a look at http://troolon.com for pictures)
-> There is no test to differentiate between the shapes. In reality we can only observe/measure the physical properties, not the shape."

And then further down, when SteelyBob presses on the question of distance, troolon writes (emphasis added):

"For an observer existing within the coordinate system, ie a person in austraiia, the world and distances appear as in reality.
For an observer outside of the coordinate system, you should measure distances with a flat-earth ruler. (which is curved and has non-equal distance markings)
Taking an orthogonal ruler, to a flat-earth coordinate system produces invalid results. Just like taking my bend ruler to your globe would completely invalidate it."

And voila, that goes directly to my initial point. WW2 planes used a plotting chart that required lines of longitude to not diverge, but to eventually converge at the south pole. If their plotting charts had matched the monopole map in reality, nearly all those pilots would have died in the ocean because they would not have known the absolute distances they needed to travel in miles to get back to their carrier or airbase.  Their plotting charts would have provided, in the words of troolon, "invalid results."

He very cleverly sidesteps the very different absolute distances between lines of longitude the further south they get from the equator if the world were monopole in reality, as compared to an oblate spheroid. He does this by discussing coordinates on map projections, and what he's written only makes sense (to me) under the assumption that the map projections preserve the coordinates as mapped to real world places, but not that the absolute distances as measured in miles would be the same between a flat monopole earth and a round oblate spheroid.

It's possible I'm mistaken about something troolon is saying, but I can't find any interpretation of what he's said in this entire thread that can be summarized as:

'Whether lines of longitude converge (as in RET) or diverge (as in FET), the absolute distances traveled between each line of longitude would be the same.'

That's nonsense, and I don't believe troolon made any claim to that effect!

« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 01:26:02 AM by existoid »

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #252 on: April 30, 2022, 01:05:46 AM »
It is not still a globe model, literally. He has changed the shape of it. He is trying to say that because of his misunderstanding of math and physics, that any shape is the same as any other shape. A globe is a globe in any coordinate system. Changing the coordinate system does not make distances stretch or compress nor make the light bend. Coordinate systems describe geometry, a globe is a globe in cartessian, spherical, or any coordinate system and it has the same physical properties.

Math does no control, it describes. Physics is the process of looking at the world around us and figuring out a consistent explanation for how things work. Math is starting with a set of assumptions and building a logical system. Turns out that if you start with natural numbers and 3 space Euclidean math, you get a useful tool to help you do physics. But a globe is still a globe and has the physical properties of a globe (different from other shapes) no matter what equations you present. Changing coordinate systems does not change the shape of an object, or you have done it wrong.

If the transforms give equivalent results, you don't have to change the laws of physics to get observed reality, distance is constant, light rays don't have to bend and get cancelled to match observations.

"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #253 on: April 30, 2022, 01:08:38 AM »
"-> There is no test to differentiate between the shapes. In reality we can only observe/measure the physical properties, not the shape."

If we can measure the physical properties, how can we not know the shape?
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

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Offline Clyde Frog

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #254 on: April 30, 2022, 12:31:58 PM »
Great work, guys. You successfully demonstrated exactly what I said. Sort of, actually. Existoid read without comprehension, so that's at least more than was apparent before.

Every coordinate in 3D space is directly mapped from a single point on the globe to a single point on troolon's FE. It's a globe. Anyone standing on the surface of the Earth would perceive it to be a globe, which has converging lines of longitude at both poles.

But by all means, continue attacking this representation of the globe, expressed in a scary foreign coordinate system.

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #255 on: April 30, 2022, 04:54:05 PM »
Great work, guys. You successfully demonstrated exactly what I said. Sort of, actually. Existoid read without comprehension, so that's at least more than was apparent before.

Every coordinate in 3D space is directly mapped from a single point on the globe to a single point on troolon's FE. It's a globe. Anyone standing on the surface of the Earth would perceive it to be a globe, which has converging lines of longitude at both poles.

But by all means, continue attacking this representation of the globe, expressed in a scary foreign coordinate system.

Let me summarize troolon's point as I understand it, and as I understand you to be restating:

Troolon makes no claims as to which version of earth is a reality (globe or flat). However, whichever earth is "reality" - globe or flat - we can use a coordinate system to create a map projection to look like the other shape. In other words, if we assume the earth is a globe, we can use a 3D coordinate system to create an accurate map that looks like an monopole, it's just an AE projection of a spherical reality. Or, if we assume the earth is flat, we can use a 3D coordinate system to create a 3D model of a globe, but it's just a spherical projection of the flat reality. Of course you can use a 3D coordinate system to make any map projection, regardless of what the underlying reality is.

I'm not disputing that. You seem to think I am. I'm making a different argument:

If we assume that, in reality, the earth is a globe, and we map that globe using an accurate 3D coordinate system onto an AE projection (with the north pole at the center), and our AE projection is accurate to the globe reality, then regardless of unit of measure the absolute distances between each line of longitude at the circumference of the map is zero. That's because on an actual globe, such lines would converge at the south pole (which is represented as a big circle on this AE projection). The projection makes the lines of longitude appear to diverge, but if they diverged in reality then the distance between each could not possibly be zero. Two lines that are spaced apart can't have a distance of zero between them, can they?

Look at this image:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ungp3c57f3ulcks/Monopole%20map%20with%20longitudes%20at%20the%20circumference%20highlighted.png?dl=0

Each red line would have a distance of zero between each other (no matter what units of measure you choose to use), if the world, in reality, were a globe, and this map was merely a projection of that real globe onto a flat surface.

By contrast, if we assume that, in reality, the earth is flat, with the north pole at the center, and we map that flat world using an accurate 3D coordinate system onto a spherical projection, with the outer circumference of the world condensed into a point at the "bottom" of the sphere, then regardless of unit of measure the absolute distances between each line of longitude which converge to a point at that "bottom" of the sphere  cannot be zero but a positive number!.

Remember, in this latter example we are assuming that the earth, in reality, is flat and so those red lines in my attached image are some measurable distance apart. Say, roughly 10,000 miles apart along the curve of the circumference. And that 10,000 miles of real ice between each is "projected" to a single point.

That's why I put an emphasis on this particular quote from troolon, which I repeat here without emphasis:

"Taking an orthogonal ruler, to a flat-earth coordinate system produces invalid results. Just like taking my bend ruler to your globe would completely invalidate it."

In other words, when you put actual, measurable numbers of distances between each line of longitude, the same coordinate system will produce invalid results depending on whether the real shape of the object measured is a flat monopole world or a globe. [EDIT: and thus my WW2 plotting chart evidence. The planes flying over the ocean had to have precisely measured distances between each stated coordinate - each line of longitude - on their charts, or else they would virtually always crash into the ocean and die. They couldn't just fly between unknown distances along each latitude until the next longitude without knowing the number of km they were traveling!].

I'll restate my final statement from my previous post a little differently given the fuller explanation above:

'The lines of longitude cannot both converge AND diverge in reality, because the absolute, measurable distance between converging lines and diverging lines cannot be the same. That's impossible. So, either longitude, in reality, converges (as in RET), but the AE projection using a 3D coordinate system merely appears like they are diverging when they're not. Or, lines of longitude, in reality, diverge further south (as in FET), but global representation merely make them appear like they are converging when they're not.

In reality, the same lines of longitude cannot both converge and diverge. They must be actually doing one or the other. Yes, the projection can make it look however you want.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 06:09:27 PM by existoid »

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #256 on: April 30, 2022, 05:29:01 PM »

Every coordinate in 3D space is directly mapped from a single point on the globe to a single point on troolon's FE. It's a globe. Anyone standing on the surface of the Earth would perceive it to be a globe, which has converging lines of longitude at both poles.

I forgot to directly address is, although my above post certainly accounts for it.  But here's a more direct reply, taking into account my explanation above:

The "coordinate" that is exactly at the south pole in 3D space, when mapped to an FE map will become a circle. It will be the circumference of the world map, in fact. How can a point be a circle?

Or, if the reality were a flat earth, the many coordinates that form the circumference of the map would all be mapped onto the same single point that is the south pole in a spherical projection of the flat reality. How can a circle be a point?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #257 on: April 30, 2022, 06:17:30 PM »
In reality, the same lines of longitude cannot both converge and diverge.
I'm glad that you agree RET is an impossibility, but in this specific instance you happen to be wrong.
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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #258 on: May 01, 2022, 02:38:33 PM »
In reality, the same lines of longitude cannot both converge and diverge.
I'm glad that you agree RET is an impossibility, but in this specific instance you happen to be wrong.

Ha, well put.

Let me clarify:

I should have written: "In reality, the same lines of longitude cannot both converge and diverge in the same direction moving  south of the equator."

Better?

[Edit: and in the paragraph above I could have been more specific as well, clarifying this topic sentence:
'The lines of longitude cannot both converge AND diverge in reality crossing through a series of given lines of latitude , because the absolute, measurable distance between converging lines and diverging lines cannot be the same.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 02:57:50 PM by existoid »

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #259 on: May 01, 2022, 03:14:38 PM »
I should have written: "In reality, the same lines of longitude cannot both converge and diverge in the same direction moving  south of the equator."

Better?
But that's not what happens under RET (which I presuppose to be your definition of reality), and troolon's "model" is just a restatement of RET with no functional changes. His entire argument relies on taking RET piecemeal and throwing a layer of confusion on top of it.
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