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Offline Rushy

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #300 on: April 06, 2022, 08:04:50 PM »
Right, but if a male teacher gets asked where they were last week, they shouldn't be able to say, "Oh, I got married and my wife and I went on a honeymoon."

Correct.


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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #301 on: April 06, 2022, 08:19:08 PM »
Right, but if a male teacher gets asked where they were last week, they shouldn't be able to say, "Oh, I got married and my wife and I went on a honeymoon."

Correct.

Fair enough.  Sure as hell glad I didn't go to that school.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #302 on: April 06, 2022, 08:25:20 PM »
Right, but if a male teacher gets asked where they were last week, they shouldn't be able to say, "Oh, I got married and my wife and I went on a honeymoon."

Correct.

Fair enough.  Sure as hell glad I didn't go to that school.

Yes, I'm sure you have lots of fond memories about teachers talking about their honeymoon while you were five years old. I'm sure you cannot imagine what you'd do without them.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #303 on: April 06, 2022, 08:33:34 PM »
Right, but if a male teacher gets asked where they were last week, they shouldn't be able to say, "Oh, I got married and my wife and I went on a honeymoon."

Correct.

Fair enough.  Sure as hell glad I didn't go to that school.

Yes, I'm sure you have lots of fond memories about teachers talking about their honeymoon while you were five years old. I'm sure you cannot imagine what you'd do without them.

No, but who determines what's an acceptable personal discussion to have. 

Is, "Hey (male) Teach, how'd you like the game last night."

"My husband and I thought it was great."

acceptable?

How 'bout "Hey (male) Teach, how'd you like the game last night."

"My wife and I thought it was great."
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #304 on: April 06, 2022, 08:37:25 PM »
No, but who determines what's an acceptable personal discussion to have. 

Is, "Hey (male) Teach, how'd you like the game last night."

"My husband and I thought it was great."

acceptable?

How 'bout "Hey (male) Teach, how'd you like the game last night."

"My wife and I thought it was great."

Well, for starters, what in the world kind of kindergartners are you creating? "how'd you like the game last night?" Are you sure this is a kindergartner or is this a 35 year old man at a bar?

Secondly, why not simply "I thought it was great"? The question was "how did YOU like that game last night?" not "how did YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY like the game last night?". Are teachers incapable of basic language parsing where you come from?

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #305 on: April 06, 2022, 08:39:49 PM »
Sorry, missed the part where anything was dictated that everything stopped at the age of 5.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #306 on: April 06, 2022, 08:41:18 PM »
Secondly, why not simply "I thought it was great"? The question was "how did YOU like that game last night?" not "how did YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY like the game last night?". Are teachers incapable of basic language parsing where you come from?

Irrelevant.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Rushy

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #307 on: April 06, 2022, 08:43:22 PM »
Sorry, missed the part where anything was dictated that everything stopped at the age of 5.

The law stops at third grade. In the most extreme of cases, you're dealing with a 9 year old. The majority will stop at 7 or 8. I don't know how many third graders you interact with, but they usually don't sound like a grown man at the local bar.

Secondly, why not simply "I thought it was great"? The question was "how did YOU like that game last night?" not "how did YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY like the game last night?". Are teachers incapable of basic language parsing where you come from?

Irrelevant.

This is low content nonsense. Don't do it again. Warned.

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #308 on: April 06, 2022, 08:59:03 PM »
Secondly, why not simply "I thought it was great"? The question was "how did YOU like that game last night?" not "how did YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY like the game last night?". Are teachers incapable of basic language parsing where you come from?

Irrelevant.

This is low content nonsense. Don't do it again. Warned.

OK, I'll be more verbose.  Your "But he coulda" response is irrelevant to the question I asked.  At what point and in what context does a mention of one's spouse become off limits.  All of them?  A teacher is never allowed to admit they have a spouse until they are teaching 4th grade or higher?  More importantly, if all spouse mentions are not off limits, then are strictly same sex spouses not allowed?
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

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Offline Rushy

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #309 on: April 06, 2022, 09:01:13 PM »
OK, I'll be more verbose.  Your "But he coulda" response is irrelevant to the question I asked.  At what point and in what context does a mention of one's spouse become off limits.  All of them?

The law is vague enough that it's left up to interpretation by the school and parents. This is as it should be, since parents pay for the school via taxes, the parents should have the most say in how teachers interact with the children in their class.

More importantly, if all spouse metions are not off limits, then are strictly same sex spouses not allowed?

If that were the case, the law would be struck down quickly. The law carries no verbatim language specifically targeting sexual orientation.


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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #310 on: April 06, 2022, 11:23:13 PM »
If that were the case, the law would be struck down quickly. The law carries no verbatim language specifically targeting sexual orientation.

Not targeting a specific sexual orientation, but targeting the discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity in general. From the law itself:

prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner;
https://m.flsenate.gov/session/bill/2022/1557/billtext/er/pdf

Im just not sure how that plays out in real world scenarios. I’m not sure how “discussion” is defined. If a kid asks about the ring around a teachers finger, or the photos of their kids on the desk or why their teacher, Ms. Smith, is not called Mrs like their gym teacher, Mrs. Smith, etc. it’s all a little murky and I’m not sure what “problem” the law is trying to solve.

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #311 on: April 07, 2022, 12:32:28 AM »
Well one good thing about this law. It's like how Obama reminded us that there are still vicious racists out there. A lot of people seem to like to pretend to be friendly to those of the LGBTQ+ persuasion, it's kinda in vogue.

Anyone defending this law is doing it from a place of bigotry. They think they can make it sound righteous (Think of the poor children!). But you don't make an effort to defend this law in any way unless you're a bigot. There's no reason to; unless you are a bigot who is afraid the gay will rub off, you have no reason to think it necessary.

So it's rooted some of those fakes out. Shown their true colors.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #312 on: April 07, 2022, 08:44:26 AM »
It's like Brexit. Not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist, but all the racists definitely voted for it.
With this bill, I don't think you have to be a homophobic bigot to support it, but all the homophobic bigots definitely do.
The law, as written, doesn't seem so unreasonable. It talks about teaching things in an age appropriate way. But isn't that obvious? Surely that already happens. What problem does this bill solve? You can tell in Tom's posts what problem he thinks there is:

Quote
If the teacher hypes it up they'll think it's great. It is dangerous to allow the LGBTQ to promote their own ideology to children
...
If you think that he wasn't promoting being gay to children or hyping it up you are kidding yourself.
...
We don't need to be concerned as much about something like a gay man spending the class promoting his gay lifestyle to impressionable minds
...
the absurdity of allowing the LGBTQ to accost children with their ideologies they discovered as adults and encourage the children to "question".

Look at the kind of language he's using. "promoting" their ideology, "promoting being gay", "hyping it up", "promoting his gay lifestyle, "accosting children"
This utter bullshit that gay people are actively trying to recruit others and encourage kids to be gay. How would that even work?
Elsewhere he rolls his eyes that:

Quote
[the teacher is] upset that she can't talk to pre-schoolers about their sexuality and prevent them from feeling "unloved or ashamed for who they are".

When Pete asked him to clarify if he proposes that some children should feel unloved or ashamed for who they are, Tom replies "yes, certainly" and:

Quote
"When a student has such a problem the answer is to inform the parents or refer them to the school psychology services...Most parents do not want their children to be groomed or instructed by teachers who seek to validate the child's supposed sexuality"

Note how the mask slips here. Tom is pretending that he's super concerned about children and their education. What he's actually scared of is that a child might turn out to be gay because that is "a problem". He has no problem with children being indoctrinated, just so long as that it's to a way of life he agrees with and doesn't consider a sinful abomination.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #313 on: April 07, 2022, 11:38:40 AM »
Quote
Look at the kind of language he's using. "promoting" their ideology, "promoting being gay", "hyping it up", "promoting his gay lifestyle, "accosting children"

Yes, if you ask someone who enjoys doing or being a certain thing about that topic they will most likely say something positive about it. Saying something positive about it is promoting it. It is not unbiased emotionless instruction about different flavors of sexuality like you would read in a dictionary or in some textbooks. Children having Q&A with random LGBTQ people outside of the structure of education is not healthy at all. Nor is Q&A with an old man about heterosexuality. It is also disturbing to think of a random person giving uncertified instruction about straight sex and sexuality to very young children.

Sexual education is the responsibility of the state and of the patents. Many states have an authorization structure for sex education, oversight of the content material, and requires consent from parents. Society already has a mechanism for education, and has had a mechanism for many years.

The argument that young children need to be accosted by random people with their own ideas about sexuality because you feels that "kids need to learn" or the similar garbage you are flaunting is irrelevant.  It is simply improper to decide on your own, outside of the framework of education, without oversight, and without the permission of parents, that a classroom full of young children are ready to learn about sexuality in the way you see sexuality from you. You must go through the proper channels. And the proper channels will get together and debate it out with child psychologists, parents, experts, and provide a structure for that. They will also end up drafting laws saying that education is the responsibility of the state and of the parents, and as in Florida's case, that very young children should not be subjected to lessons on sexuality.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 01:01:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #314 on: April 07, 2022, 01:08:23 PM »
We are still waiting to know what problem this solves. There is no epidemic of K-3 children being taught about sexuality. It’s a manufactured panic. As AATW already stated, kids are surely being taught in an age appropriate manner in the vast majority of cases. I think you’ll struggle to find a child psychologist who says that a certain topic should be absolutely taboo, but instead support ideas being introduced in an age appropriate manner. You will likely not find many child psychologists who insist that ONLY a parent should be the source of any information. That notion just comes from a desire to control a child’s world and isn’t an inherent good.

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #315 on: April 07, 2022, 01:24:22 PM »
Yes, if you ask someone who enjoys doing or being a certain thing about that topic they will most likely say something positive about it.
If the "something positive" is that it's OK to be gay then, given the world we now live in where being gay is accepted and gay marriage is legal, I'd suggest that's a good message for kids to be hearing. As I keep saying and you keep ignoring, it is clearly a lot more healthy for a kid who is gay to grow up feeling loved and accepted rather than being told that how they feel, how they are is wrong and shameful. That old attitude has done so much harm down the years. The fact that you think that gay kids should feel unloved or ashamed for who they are is reprehensible.

I don't even know what you mean "enjoy". Do you enjoy being heterosexual? What does that even mean? You might enjoy sex, maybe that gay teacher does. I seriously doubt you or he would be telling kids about that though. The idea that gays are trying to "recruit" is bullshit. And how would that work? No-one consciously chooses their sexuality.

Quote
The argument that young children need to be accosted by random people with their own ideas about sexuality because you feels that "kids need to learn" or the similar garbage you are flaunting is irrelevant.
It's not "irrelevant", it's simply not an argument that I or anyone else is making.
Firstly, "accosted". What the hell are you talking about? You know what that means, right?
"approach and address (someone) boldly or aggressively.". Who is suggesting that?
And "random people"? Aren't we talking about the context of a school? We are talking about trained teachers.

And "their own ideas about sexuality"? What does that mean? What I've consistently said is that kids need to learn about the world they're growing up in. That world is now one in which being gay is legal and accepted. Gay marriage is legal in many places, gay adoption is too.
You may think that gay kids should grow up feeling unloved or ashamed of who they are. I absolutely do not think that and I'm glad that as a society we have moved past that

You keep pretending that you don't want kids indoctrinated - not that I think they are being. What you really mean is you don't want them indoctrinated in a way you personally don't approve of.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #316 on: April 07, 2022, 02:11:20 PM »
Well one good thing about this law. It's like how Obama reminded us that there are still vicious racists out there. A lot of people seem to like to pretend to be friendly to those of the LGBTQ+ persuasion, it's kinda in vogue.

Anyone defending this law is doing it from a place of bigotry. They think they can make it sound righteous (Think of the poor children!). But you don't make an effort to defend this law in any way unless you're a bigot. There's no reason to; unless you are a bigot who is afraid the gay will rub off, you have no reason to think it necessary.

So it's rooted some of those fakes out. Shown their true colors.

There are individuals who spent the past 16 pages explaining to you various reasons why this law now exists. Unfortunately, in modern times, people are all too excited to play the victim and put words in other people's mouths.

If your argument starts with "No, your stance isn't what you say it is, it's what I say it is" then your argument is pointless. Here's what I would say if I take the same argument tactics as you:

"You and anyone who dislikes this law just wants to have sex with children. That's it. There's no other reason for being against this law. You want to fuck children and you're outing yourself for attacking this law. That's the only possible reason. You're putting effort into attacking this law because you're a pedophile. That's it. End of story."

See how easy it is to just ignore the things you say and make up my own things. Amazing.

If that were the case, the law would be struck down quickly. The law carries no verbatim language specifically targeting sexual orientation.

Not targeting a specific sexual orientation, but targeting the discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity in general. From the law itself:

prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner;
https://m.flsenate.gov/session/bill/2022/1557/billtext/er/pdf

Im just not sure how that plays out in real world scenarios. I’m not sure how “discussion” is defined. If a kid asks about the ring around a teachers finger, or the photos of their kids on the desk or why their teacher, Ms. Smith, is not called Mrs like their gym teacher, Mrs. Smith, etc. it’s all a little murky and I’m not sure what “problem” the law is trying to solve.

Okay? If I say "no white people allowed in my business" that is racist. If I say "no people allowed" that is not racist (and probably very bad for business). I'm not sure how you've taken "you cannot discuss sexual orientation with children" as predominantly anti-LGBT. Is a fundamental quality of LGBT requiring that you talk to children about sexual topics?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 02:13:23 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #317 on: April 07, 2022, 04:51:23 PM »
We are still waiting to know what problem this solves. There is no epidemic of K-3 children being taught about sexuality. It’s a manufactured panic. As AATW already stated, kids are surely being taught in an age appropriate manner in the vast majority of cases. I think you’ll struggle to find a child psychologist who says that a certain topic should be absolutely taboo, but instead support ideas being introduced in an age appropriate manner. You will likely not find many child psychologists who insist that ONLY a parent should be the source of any information. That notion just comes from a desire to control a child’s world and isn’t an inherent good.

This 'epidemic' argument is bunk on its face. It actually doesn't matter how many murders occur to justify murder being illegal, as an example.

Another article about the LGBTQ sexualization of children came out today about Pre-K education in Illinois - Daily Wire - School District To Pre-K Students: Draw Your Own Transgender Pride Flag

No parental consent to this education:

    Speaking to The Daily Wire on condition of anonymity, a parent whose spouse works as a teacher in the district said presenting gender-based ideology ought to be the “purview of parents.” The parent said “teaching this to children without parental consent” is not the right thing to do.

Teaching children that they can be a boy or a girl or "both" a girl and a boy, or "neither", or "something else":

    Gender-based curricula have also been implemented during other equity-focused weeks. During BLM month in February, the district presented slides on being a “Transgender ally” that told special needs kids they may choose to be “a boy or girl or both or neither, or something else” since “no one gets to choose for them,” according to slides reviewed by The Daily Wire

Reading books to little boys which promote crossdressing:

    Following this, teachers were instructed to do a “read aloud” of books that have a social justice bent. One suggested book is “Julián is a Mermaid,” which is about a boy who sees how women are dressed “spectacularly” and goes home to dress “like the ladies.”

Do you have an argument in favor for why very young children and special needs kids should be taught that they can be "both" a girl and a boy, or "something else", and that crossdressing is fabulous?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 05:24:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #318 on: April 07, 2022, 05:53:56 PM »
We are still waiting to know what problem this solves. There is no epidemic of K-3 children being taught about sexuality. It’s a manufactured panic. As AATW already stated, kids are surely being taught in an age appropriate manner in the vast majority of cases. I think you’ll struggle to find a child psychologist who says that a certain topic should be absolutely taboo, but instead support ideas being introduced in an age appropriate manner. You will likely not find many child psychologists who insist that ONLY a parent should be the source of any information. That notion just comes from a desire to control a child’s world and isn’t an inherent good.

This 'epidemic' argument is bunk on its face. It actually doesn't matter how many murders occur to justify murder being illegal, as an example.

We aren't talking about crimes.

Quote
Another article about the LGBTQ sexualization of children came out today about Pre-K education in Illinois - Daily Wire - School District To Pre-K Students: Draw Your Own Transgender Pride Flag

No parental consent to this education:

    Speaking to The Daily Wire on condition of anonymity, a parent whose spouse works as a teacher in the district said presenting gender-based ideology ought to be the “purview of parents.” The parent said “teaching this to children without parental consent” is not the right thing to do.

Teaching children that they can be a boy or a girl or "both" a girl and a boy, or "neither", or "something else":

    Gender-based curricula have also been implemented during other equity-focused weeks. During BLM month in February, the district presented slides on being a “Transgender ally” that told special needs kids they may choose to be “a boy or girl or both or neither, or something else” since “no one gets to choose for them,” according to slides reviewed by The Daily Wire

So you don't think gender is a social construct and people should identify how they choose to?  You think the State should dictate how people identify?

Quote
Reading books to little boys which promote crossdressing:

    Following this, teachers were instructed to do a “read aloud” of books that have a social justice bent. One suggested book is “Julián is a Mermaid,” which is about a boy who sees how women are dressed “spectacularly” and goes home to dress “like the ladies.”

Do you have an argument in favor for why very young children and special needs kids should be taught that they can be "both" a girl and a boy, or "something else", and that crossdressing is fabulous?

See above about how people want to identify.  I think people shouldn't be told they have to identify how society wants them to.  I would think that you also wouldn't want the government to interfere with what is a personal choice, but hey ho, lets go authoritarianism!

Crossdressing is fabulous and although many queer identifying people do it, heterosexual people also engage in it. My brother-in-law's father is known for doing drag shows at family functions and he is straight; it is not strictly a sexual act.  Now you have to explain why you want to enforce the heterosexual ideology that certain clothes should only be worn by certain sexes.  I thought you were against people enforcing sexual ideology.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: LGBT School Teachers
« Reply #319 on: April 07, 2022, 06:16:36 PM »
See above about how people want to identify.  I think people shouldn't be told they have to identify how society wants them to.  I would think that you also wouldn't want the government to interfere with what is a personal choice, but hey ho, lets go authoritarianism!

Crossdressing is fabulous and although many queer identifying people do it, heterosexual people also engage in it. My brother-in-law's father is known for doing drag shows at family functions and he is straight; it is not strictly a sexual act.  Now you have to explain why you want to enforce the heterosexual ideology that certain clothes should only be worn by certain sexes.  I thought you were against people enforcing sexual ideology.

Yes, your brother is a drag queen and loves crossdressing. Awesome. But why do we therefore need to read books to ages 3 - 5 which tell them that crossdressing is fabulous?

This sort of promotion is clearly conditioning and grooming. It is not merely letting them know that crossdressers exist.

Quote from: Rama Set
So you don't think gender is a social construct and people should identify how they choose to?  You think the State should dictate how people identify?

I don't see any legitimate argument from you for why ages 3 to 5 must be taught that they can be gender fluid and be "both" a girl and a boy or "neither" or "something else".

The parents didn't agree to that like they agree to normal sex education in elementary school. How is that appropriate at all?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 10:18:53 PM by Tom Bishop »