Offline scomato

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2021, 04:57:01 PM »
The notion that Rowbotham is the father of soda is a bold faced lie. Thomas Henry, an apothecary from Manchester, was the first to sell artificial mineral water to the general public for medicinal purposes, beginning in the 1770s. The history of the origin of soft drinks predates Rowbotham's birth by 40 years. He may have certainly contributed to the industry but so was basically everyone who called themselves a pharmacist or apothecary at that time.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2021, 05:03:47 PM »
Ok.

So let’s say he was a doctor. And that while he might have been a quack, you could probably say that about most doctors of that era.


What has that got to do with anything? That doesn’t make him qualified to pontificate about the shape of the earth.

Hey, go ahead and shift those goalposts, why not?
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Offline scomato

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2021, 05:30:17 PM »
What's with the fascination with Rowbotham anyways? Let's say he is as qualified a scientist as one could be in the 1870s. Let's all be real, the bar for empiricism in the 1800s was not high. With the bar for empiricism so low, I would bet a majority of scientists and physicians would be considered quacks by today's standards.

Regardless, he is just one man out of millions of physicists, astronomers, geologists, meteorologists, engineers, that have been born, worked long careers, and died since that time. It is quite literally Rowbotham vs. The World when it comes to Flat Earth belief. If the best Flat Earth can do is quack doctor who died 137 years ago, you should be able to see why his contribution is very much unconvincing.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2021, 05:53:25 PM »
The fascination with Rowbotham comes from Round Earthers who seem to think their best shot at discrediting empirical observation is not to debate the facts, but rather to attack a long-dead man of little modern significance.

Look inward. Introspect. Improve.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Offline Rog

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2021, 06:49:23 PM »
Quote
The fascination with Rowbotham comes from Round Earthers who seem to think their best shot at discrediting empirical observation is not to debate the facts, but rather to attack a long-dead man of little modern significance.

That fascination probably stems from the fact that flat earthers use Rowbotham's Bedford Level Experiment as their "best evidence".   It would be analogous to flat earthers discrediting photos from space or Einstein.

Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2021, 07:08:49 PM »
Hey, go ahead and shift those goalposts, why not?
Do what?!
The OP says:

Quote
I've checked the Wiki, and couldn't find any mention of accredited scientists (of the era)
who were actually involved in the formation of and/or operations of the Society.  The only
mention, by name, of anybody connected with it was Samuel Birley Rowbotham who was
merely a preacher, and who had no scientific qualifications, despite falsely styling himself
as Dr. Rowbotham.

The thread then devolved into a whole back and forth about whether he was really a doctor and whether he was a quack.
What the hell is that to do with the OP about whether anyone involved in the formation of the society had any scientific credentials?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2021, 07:13:01 PM »
The fascination with Rowbotham comes from Round Earthers who seem to think their best shot at discrediting empirical observation is not to debate the facts, but rather to attack a long-dead man of little modern significance.

Look inward. Introspect. Improve.
I’d suggest it comes from the Wiki heavily leaning on Rowbotham’s writing in ENaG and the fact that the modern FET is still largely based on it - with some amendments, admittedly.
I’d never heard of him before I found this place.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2021, 07:30:08 PM »
Hey, go ahead and shift those goalposts, why not?
Do what?!
The OP says:

Quote
I've checked the Wiki, and couldn't find any mention of accredited scientists (of the era)
who were actually involved in the formation of and/or operations of the Society.  The only
mention, by name, of anybody connected with it was Samuel Birley Rowbotham who was
merely a preacher, and who had no scientific qualifications, despite falsely styling himself
as Dr. Rowbotham.

The thread then devolved into a whole back and forth about whether he was really a doctor and whether he was a quack.
What the hell is that to do with the OP about whether anyone involved in the formation of the society had any scientific credentials?

He was a medical doctor. He had a PhD. I'm missing the lack of qualifications.  ???
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2021, 07:33:12 PM »
That fascination probably stems from the fact that flat earthers use Rowbotham's Bedford Level Experiment as their "best evidence".
If your fascination stems from something you made up, and which finds no confirmation in reality, then your situation is even worse than what I describe.

Definitely work on your introspection.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Offline stack

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2021, 07:59:32 PM »
The fascination with Rowbotham comes from Round Earthers who seem to think their best shot at discrediting empirical observation is not to debate the facts, but rather to attack a long-dead man of little modern significance.

Look inward. Introspect. Improve.

Perhaps the fascination stems from his prominence in certain FE circles. For instance, the main page of your Wiki states, "Flat Earth Theory has grown over the centuries like a wondering sojourner hungry for truth and eager for discovery. It’s changed from the learned conjectures by our ancestors of Antiquity to Victorian polymaths like Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham, and it even thrives today in a world-wide grassroots effort of scholarship."

Rowbotham is the only FE scholar mentioned on the main page. No mention on the wiki main page of Blount, Carpenter, Hampden, Voliva, S. Shenton, or D.Shenton. Just Rowbotham.

Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2021, 08:10:30 PM »
He was a medical doctor. He had a PhD. I'm missing the lack of qualifications.  ???
Then have another look at my first post in this thread:

Quote
What has that got to do with anything? That doesn’t make him qualified to pontificate about the shape of the earth.

Ok, so he was a medical doctor. So? How does that qualify him to write a book about the shape of the earth? If I want to know about that I don’t talk to my GP.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline Rog

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2021, 08:16:07 PM »
That fascination probably stems from the fact that flat earthers use Rowbotham's Bedford Level Experiment as their "best evidence".
If your fascination stems from something you made up, and which finds no confirmation in reality, then your situation is even worse than what I describe.

Definitely work on your introspection.

I didn't make it up.  That is what is says in the FAQ in the wiki.

Quote
Perhaps the best example of Flat Earth proof is the Bedford Level Experiment. In short, this was an experiment performed many times on a six-mile stretch of water that proved the surface of the water to be flat. It did not conform to the curvature of the Earth that Round Earth proponents teach

https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_-_Frequently_Asked_Questions


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Offline RonJ

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2021, 08:19:32 PM »
Rowbotham’s thesis was that the earth was flat, and a map was created.  This flat map was created with longitudinal lines diverging South of the equator.  There was a section in ENAG where an example of distance measurements was cited that supported this thesis.  Unfortunately (for Rowbotham) some mistakes were made.  The book “Earth Not A Globe” might have been written by a ‘scientist’ but not by a qualified navigator.  There might have been some scientific accreditations but those would NOT be relevant in this case. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 11:06:57 PM by RonJ »
You can lead flat earthers to the curve but you can't make them think!

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2021, 09:13:49 PM »
He was a medical doctor. He had a PhD. I'm missing the lack of qualifications.  ???
Then have another look at my first post in this thread:

Quote
What has that got to do with anything? That doesn’t make him qualified to pontificate about the shape of the earth.

Ok, so he was a medical doctor. So? How does that qualify him to write a book about the shape of the earth? If I want to know about that I don’t talk to my GP.

Okay, let's go around in circles then. Go ahead, move them goalposts. The OP doesn't ask if anyone involved in the movement in the 19th century was qualified to "pontificate about the shape of the Earth". It merely asks if any accredited scientists were part of the movement in the 19th century. And as demonstrated, at least one was: Samuel Birley Rowbotham!
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline stack

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2021, 09:35:30 PM »
He was a medical doctor. He had a PhD. I'm missing the lack of qualifications.  ???
Then have another look at my first post in this thread:

Quote
What has that got to do with anything? That doesn’t make him qualified to pontificate about the shape of the earth.

Ok, so he was a medical doctor. So? How does that qualify him to write a book about the shape of the earth? If I want to know about that I don’t talk to my GP.

Okay, let's go around in circles then. Go ahead, move them goalposts. The OP doesn't ask if anyone involved in the movement in the 19th century was qualified to "pontificate about the shape of the Earth". It merely asks if any accredited scientists were part of the movement in the 19th century. And as demonstrated, at least one was: Samuel Birley Rowbotham!

In part, specifically, the OP asks, "Apart from the dubious Rowbotham, what were the names of its other board and/or governing members?" So perhaps Rowbotham isn't even a part of the discussion.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2021, 09:46:04 PM »
He was a medical doctor. He had a PhD. I'm missing the lack of qualifications.  ???
Then have another look at my first post in this thread:

Quote
What has that got to do with anything? That doesn’t make him qualified to pontificate about the shape of the earth.

Ok, so he was a medical doctor. So? How does that qualify him to write a book about the shape of the earth? If I want to know about that I don’t talk to my GP.

Okay, let's go around in circles then. Go ahead, move them goalposts. The OP doesn't ask if anyone involved in the movement in the 19th century was qualified to "pontificate about the shape of the Earth". It merely asks if any accredited scientists were part of the movement in the 19th century. And as demonstrated, at least one was: Samuel Birley Rowbotham!

In part, specifically, the OP asks, "Apart from the dubious Rowbotham, what were the names of its other board and/or governing members?" So perhaps Rowbotham isn't even a part of the discussion.

Well no, the OP makes it clear that he's ignorant of Rowbotham's credentials, and unqualifiedly asks if ANYONE involved in the movement was an accredited scientist.

I've always seen this site as more of an educational tool than anything else. I hope the OP and the rest of you who were making incorrect assumptions about the movement's founders learned something new today.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2021, 09:46:22 PM »
Okay, let's go around in circles then. Go ahead, move them goalposts. The OP doesn't ask if anyone involved in the movement in the 19th century was qualified to "pontificate about the shape of the Earth". It merely asks if any accredited scientists were part of the movement in the 19th century. And as demonstrated, at least one was: Samuel Birley Rowbotham!

According to Thork’s post:

Quote
Rowbotham was a Dr twice over. He was a doctor in that he was a qualified physician ... and he was also a doctor in that he had a PhD from the University of Edinburgh for his work on the effects of Phosphorus on the human brain.

You’re being pretty disingenuous here. It’s pretty clear what the OP is asking here and how he’s using the word “scientist”. In the context of someone setting up the FES he’s clearly not talking about qualifications in medicine.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2021, 09:49:22 PM »
Okay, let's go around in circles then. Go ahead, move them goalposts. The OP doesn't ask if anyone involved in the movement in the 19th century was qualified to "pontificate about the shape of the Earth". It merely asks if any accredited scientists were part of the movement in the 19th century. And as demonstrated, at least one was: Samuel Birley Rowbotham!

According to Thork’s post:

Quote
Rowbotham was a Dr twice over. He was a doctor in that he was a qualified physician ... and he was also a doctor in that he had a PhD from the University of Edinburgh for his work on the effects of Phosphorus on the human brain.

You’re being pretty disingenuous here. It’s pretty clear what the OP is asking here and how he’s using the word “scientist”. In the context of someone setting up the FES he’s clearly not talking about qualifications in medicine.

I don't see how. Rowbotham was a learned man who worked in a scientific field. He wasn't the mere "preacher and quack" those who wish to smear his name make him out to be. Again if you want to move the goalposts that's fine, understand that it's a bit hypocritical of you to accuse me of being disingenuous while doing so.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2021, 11:03:15 PM »
The only
mention, by name, of anybody connected with it was Samuel Birley Rowbotham who was
merely a preacher, and who had no scientific qualifications, despite falsely styling himself
as Dr. Rowbotham.
False.

Rowbotham was a Dr twice over. He was a doctor in that he was a qualified physician ... and he was also a doctor in that he had a PhD from the University of Edinburgh for his work on the effects of Phosphorus on the human brain. From that he invented a soft drink that he called Dr Birley's Phosphorus Tonic which was a fore runner for Dr Pepper, (They ripped his recipe off after his death). He used the money from his sales of this tonic to found the society and died a very rich man indeed. I've done a large amount of research myself into where Rowbotham might have got the human brains he needed at Edinburgh University during that time, and they undoubtedly had to come from Burke and Hare.

But hey, believe the idle drivel that Christine Garwood wrote instead if you like. She's a terrible old hack that did very little research before writing her book. Consequently she gets most things wrong.

Thanks David.

I'd never heard of Christine Garwood, but apparently she has a B.A in history, and a Ph.D in the history of science, so I'd
assume she knows what she's talking about.  Why in particular do you say her writing is "idle drivel"?  In fact, the Sunday
Times reviewed her book "Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea" as "Meticulously researched and compellingly readable".
I haven't yet read her book, but I assume you discredit her on the basis of disinformation, misrepresentation, or even blatant lies?

I also did some Googling regarding Samuel Rowbotham, and I couldn't find any confirmation of his alleged medical doctorate
from the University of Edinburgh.  I found several other Rowbothams by surname, but no Samuel B.  Nor could I find anything
about him even being an MD.  Could you give me a link that points to his medical qualifications please.

As an aside, I'm not sure exactly why you've mention Dr Pepper, the drink, as apparently it was invented in the 1880s by Texas
pharmacist Charles Alderton, and the name itself wasn't used until 1885.

I note that the image posted by Stack doesn't refer to Dr Rowbotham, but Dr Birley, which was his middle name.  Why is this?



At any rate, it's obvious that the good doctor had not the faintest notion of what actually caused cancer. He assumed it was
a "germ" that lowered the "nerve force"—by which I'm guessing he meant our immune system? 

Anyway, I compared Dr Birley's drink ingredients  with those of Dr Pepper, and found they're almost totally different:

Dr Pepper:
Carbonated Water, Sugar, Colour (Caramel), Phosphoric Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Flavourings, Caffeine, Aspartame, Acesulfame K, Phenylalanine.

Dr Birley:
Sugar, Tartaric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Alcohol, and plain water.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Universal Zetetic Society - Scientific Accreditation?
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2021, 11:14:49 PM »
Quote from: Kangaroony
At any rate, it's obvious that the good doctor had not the faintest notion of what actually caused cancer.

You are implying that modern doctors know what causes cancer. If they knew exactly what caused cancer on a biological and biochemical level they would know exactly how to prevent and cure it, which they do not.

Rowbotham had it on the money that nervous system degradation and disorders are associated with cancer though. The most common type of skin cancer is Melanoma, and it is "surprising" that it is associated with the nervous system disorder Parkinson's Disease.

https://parkinsonsdisease.net/clinical/melanoma-skin-cancer-link

Quote
A Surprising Relationship: Parkinson’s Disease & Melanoma

Melanoma is a type of skin cancer that develops from melanocytes, and Parkinson’s disease (PD) is a progressive movement disorder that affects the nervous system.

~

The link between melanoma & Parkinson’s

The relationship between melanoma and PD runs both ways: Specifically, people with PD are 4x more likely to develop melanoma, and people with melanoma have 4x the risk of developing PD.1

Maybe this is surprising to the parkinsonsdisease.net editors, but Rowbotham wouldn't be surprised. The association with nervous system degradation and cancer was long predicted by Samuel Rowbotham in the Victorian Era.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 12:40:04 AM by Tom Bishop »