[ichoosereality]

There are numerous obvious problems with FET with regard to it not coming close to predicting the observations of the sun, day/night, moon, and stars that we actually see.
But here I'm just asking about the rather fanciful claim that what is past the south pole is not the other side of the planet but a transparent dome, or an infinite frozen plane
The "ice wall" is apparently out of fashion (though it seems to come up often enough).

Flights over the south pole while not common have occurred and those as well as land expeditions across Antartica all end up on the other side of the planet just as the global earth theory predicts.
None has been stopped by the dome, or ended up on a frozen waste land (or hit the ice wall).

There have been circumnavigations of Antartica as well including In 2019 by a robotic sail done ( https://www.noaa.gov/news/saildrone-is-first-to-circumnavigate-antarctica-in-search-for-carbon-dioxide ) which clearly documented its 13,670 mile trip. Less than 1/5th of the 75,000 miles going around the edge of the flat earth would entail.

To be honest the FE is so silly I find it very hard to accept that anyone takes it seriously.

Why do these clear results not soundly refute the FET for its supporters?   The claim is that such support stems from observation and evidence not just belief, but here is evidence that throughly refutes the FE, yet its supporters remain.

[Tom Bishop]

You haven't accounted for the anomalous southern winds, or the fact that there are two different FE models for the south.

Winds: https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Model: https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

Since you haven't contradicted the possibility of any of those points, you haven't demonstrated anything to be incorrect.

[DuncanDoenitz]

You haven't accounted for the anomalous southern winds, or the fact that there are two different FE models for the south.

Winds: https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Model: https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

Since you haven't contradicted the possibility of any of those points, you haven't demonstrated anything to be incorrect.

Hooray!! 

23rd of the month; I was beginning to worry that the famous winds wouldn't get their monthly trotting-out this August. 

Please read your own citations; the only anomalous thing about the southern winds is the Subject Heading in the Wiki.  They can be strong, but predictable and measurable. 

And which model are we going with?   

[WTF_Seriously]

You haven't accounted for the anomalous southern winds, or the fact that there are two different FE models for the south.

Winds: https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Model: https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

Since you haven't contradicted the possibility of any of those points, you haven't demonstrated anything to be incorrect.

Simple zetetic observation of solar noon determines that the Bi-Polar model is impossible.

Solar noon happens at the same time for every location on a given longitude.  In either RE or FE this occurs when the sun is closest to any location and is the time when the sun appears highest in the sky.  The only way for this to be possible is for lines of longitude to be straight and all observers along a given longitude to be looking directly along the longitude line either north or south depending on latitude.  There is only one line on the bi-polar model that satisfies this requirement and that is the straight line drawn directly from north to south no matter the orientation of the continents.  No other line of longitude on the map will satisfy these conditions.

So, we can forget about anamolous winds and the nonsense that we don't accurately know distances on earth.  Simple observatioin proves the bi-polar map false.  Are you a zetetic or not, Tom?

[AlephNull]

I think"ice wall" is a not needed postulate. Past  Antarctica (which let us posit is a strip of land encircling the known world which is why US government won't let anyone go there since Byrd), maybe there is just more ocean, forever. A "wall" begs the question what is "outside" the wall. I think the ocean just goes on forever and maybe there are other "island worlds" like our own encircled by Antarctica-like strips, that "bubble up" from the infinite ocean every now and then, for all time. Eventually, our "island world" will all sink back to the infinite plain of ocean from whence it came. The sun / moon / whatever else are objects somehow associated with the nucleation of our island world which will also sink with it at the last, but other island worlds have there own sun/ moon / etc. "Ice wall" just limits the reality of an infinite ocean plane and infinite "island worlds" through infinite time. It is posited because it feels more "cozy" to think our world is "special" but it is not, it is simply one "island world" among an infinite number of them, in an infinite ocean plane that goes forever, both in time and in space. This is my opinion in any case.

[Tom Bishop]

You haven't accounted for the anomalous southern winds, or the fact that there are two different FE models for the south.

Winds: https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Model: https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

Since you haven't contradicted the possibility of any of those points, you haven't demonstrated anything to be incorrect.

Hooray!! 

23rd of the month; I was beginning to worry that the famous winds wouldn't get their monthly trotting-out this August. 

Please read your own citations; the only anomalous thing about the southern winds is the Subject Heading in the Wiki.  They can be strong, but predictable and measurable. 

And which model are we going with?

I tend to side with the Bi-Polar model, but can't totally discount the Monopole model. Jeran of the Jeranism and Globebusters show brought to light some odd anomalies. The True airspeed seems to jump between Null and excessive speeds on some international routes.



The above comes from around the 1h32m mark of the following video by Jeran: https://youtu.be/GKKHY72x3ZU?t=5526

I also found this one interesting - The direction of a compass when approaching Australia seems to disagree with the RE Theory: https://odysee.com/@jeranism:9/max-igan-s-santiago-to-sydney-flight:b?&sunset=lbrytv

[SteelyBob]

I also found this one interesting - The direction of a compass when approaching Australia seems to disagree with the RE Theory: https://odysee.com/@jeranism:9/max-igan-s-santiago-to-sydney-flight:b?&sunset=lbrytv

First of all, trying to use a handheld magnetic compass on an aircraft is a really bad plan - you'll get wildly inaccurate results due to interference from ferrous components of the aircraft, particularly the engine, and from EM interference from various sources such as radios, electric motors and the wiring loom in general.

Second, and I suspect most significantly here, he also doesn't seem to have considered magnetic declination, which is kind of schoolboy navigation really. If you look at a declination map of the area he was talking about you'll see that the area he was flying over on the north-western heading part of the journey has a particularly large declination - around 40-50 degrees East. Here's a calculator, although there's plenty of other maps out there that all show the same thing: https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/magcalc.shtml

So a compass would be expected to indicate south of west if the direction of travel was, say 300 degrees true, which it appeared to be from the brief video clip.

This stuff is just utterly basic.

Then you get into distances and flight times. On the monopole map the straight line between the start and end point of the flight in question is longer than the distance from the edge of the circle to the North Pole, which the wiki claims (see the erastothenes section) to be 12,500 miles. Even if we err on the side of caution, and say it is a minimum of 12,500 miles, then to cover that distance in 14 hours (the slower direction time according to that video) would need a ground speed of around 900mph, and the faster flight of 11 hours would need a groundspeed of over 1100mph, and that's before you consider the slower part of the journey at each end, or the fact the distance on the monopole map is actually longer than 12500 miles. Those are not realistic speeds for an airliner.

And if you run the same exercise on the bipolar map it just makes no sense at all - can you draw a line on a bipolar map, Tom, showing the flightpath that you think the flight is taking?

We also have to bear in mind that, according to the wiki, there is no round earth conspiracy, just a space flight one. So all of this has to be happening in a way that is transparent to the people planning it and flying it, who are using RE derived speeds, headings and distances and arriving quite successfully, using instruments that display distances to waypoints, fuel burns, IAS, TAS and GS that are completely coherent with the experienced journeys.

[ichoosereality]

I think"ice wall" is a not needed postulate. Past  Antarctica (which let us posit is a strip of land encircling the known world which is why US government won't let anyone go there since Byrd),

PanAm flight 50 in 1977 didn't seem to have a problem with permissions, nor after flying from Cap Town over the south pole, did they find an ice wall, an infinite frozen plane or an infinite ocean, they found Auckland.  The earth has been circumnavigated many times by many routes and the times and distances recorded all match the globe earth.

[Tom Bishop]

Second, and I suspect most significantly here, he also doesn't seem to have considered magnetic declination, which is kind of schoolboy navigation really. If you look at a declination map of the area he was talking about you'll see that the area he was flying over on the north-western heading part of the journey has a particularly large declination - around 40-50 degrees East. Here's a calculator, although there's plenty of other maps out there that all show the same thing: https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/magcalc.shtml

So a compass would be expected to indicate south of west if the direction of travel was, say 300 degrees true, which it appeared to be from the brief video clip.

This stuff is just utterly basic.

What is the basis of magnetic declination other that to explain that the magnetic field lines aren't working right for the model and so the magnetic field lines must be warped and different?

Claiming that your model works and introducing ad-hoc explanations whenever something doesn't work isn't filling me with confidence for your model.

Not basic, but rather ad-hoc. You've given an ad-hoc explanation for something without basis.

[SteelyBob]

Second, and I suspect most significantly here, he also doesn't seem to have considered magnetic declination, which is kind of schoolboy navigation really. If you look at a declination map of the area he was talking about you'll see that the area he was flying over on the north-western heading part of the journey has a particularly large declination - around 40-50 degrees East. Here's a calculator, although there's plenty of other maps out there that all show the same thing: https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/calculators/magcalc.shtml

So a compass would be expected to indicate south of west if the direction of travel was, say 300 degrees true, which it appeared to be from the brief video clip.

This stuff is just utterly basic.

What is the basis of magnetic declination other that to explain that the magnetic field lines aren't working right for the model and so the magnetic field lines must be warped and different?

Claiming that your model works and introducing ad-hoc explanations whenever something doesn't work isn't filling me with confidence for your model.

Not basic, but rather ad-hoc. You've given an ad-hoc explanation for something without basis.

Are you now, seriously and in full public view, claiming that magnetic declination isn't real? Remember, you've argued that there is no RE conspiracy, only a space travel one, so you're suggesting that all of the organisations that teach how to use a magnetic compass (like the Boy Scouts) are either in on the conspiracy, or are wrong.

Magnetic declination isn't just stunningly obvious to anybody who's ever used a compass, it actually changes over time, hence the date input on that calculator and the rate/year stat that usually accompanies mag declination information. It even causes airports to have rename their runways occasionally, as runways take their titles from the first two digits of their mag heading (so runway 21, for example, is around 210 degrees mag), when runways that are close to a boundary drift into the  next bracket - so runway 21 might need to become 22 when its mag heading drifts closer to 220 than 210.

[Tom Bishop]

If magnetic declination does change over time, it doesn't mean that was in the configuration that you need it to be for your model for your particular explanation. Again, 'magnetic declination did it' is completely ad-hoc.

It's a point against the model because the standard model doesn't work, and needs these ad-hoc elements, sort of like the 'refraction did it' arguments for the long range observational tests.

[SteelyBob]

If magnetic declination does change over time, it doesn't mean that was in the configuration that you need it to be for your model for your particular explanation. Again, 'magnetic declination did it' is completely ad-hoc.

It's a point against the model because the standard model doesn't work, and needs these ad-hoc elements, sort of like the 'refraction did it' arguments for the long range observational tests.

So does magnetic variation from true north exist or not? If you're saying it doesn't then you are up against a wall of enormous evidence that it does, but please come off the fence and say so.

If you're saying it does exist then what process or resource are you suggesting one should use to determine what it is at a particular location and time? There is a wealth of independent and completely coherent resources out there, all coming up with pretty much exactly the same numbers, and of course if they are wrong, bad things happen. So it's hardly ad hoc - he is at a particular part of the world where the mag var is recorded as being large, and the results he gets are pretty much exactly what you would expect. Calling it ad hoc is just a desperate mask for a lack of comprehension and a strange straw man - there is no serious scientific model being proposed that relies on there not being magnetic variation.

Mag var would be equally valid on a flat earth - you'd still have to account for the fact that the magnetic North Pole, for example, is both not at the centre of the circle and is mobile.

[AlephNull]

I think"ice wall" is a not needed postulate. Past  Antarctica (which let us posit is a strip of land encircling the known world which is why US government won't let anyone go there since Byrd),

PanAm flight 50 in 1977 didn't seem to have a problem with permissions, nor after flying from Cap Town over the south pole, did they find an ice wall, an infinite frozen plane or an infinite ocean, they found Auckland.  The earth has been circumnavigated many times by many routes and the times and distances recorded all match the globe earth.

With all due respect, whatever that story was about PanAm is false. If you watch "Flat Earth Clues" by computer scientist Mark Sargent, it plainly states that since Admiral Byrd, nobody has been allowed to go back to Antartica. Professor Sargent feels this is due to an ice wall, which I respectfully disagree with, preferring an infinite ocean model beyond Antartica, but, either way, it is historical point of fact that Antarctica has been cordoned off since the 1950's.  Any stories you hear to the contrary is social media misinformation designed to inveigle and distract from the simple fact of the matter that the US government has been in panic mode over Antarctica ever since the Byrd expeditions. Professor Sargent believes Admiral Byrd found the ice wall, I think he found more ocean, but either way, what he found does not fit the globetard model, and that is just an empirical fact of the matter.

[DuncanDoenitz]

So, just sticking with names everyone has heard of, Sir David Attenborough and Sir Michael Palin have not been to Antarctica?  Where did they actually take their film crews?

edit;  Just remembered that the auspicious ex-Python, Parrot-Sketcher, globe/plane-trotter and National Treasure is also a knight (who may, or may not, say "Ni!"). I humbly crave his forgiveness. 

[DuncanDoenitz]

You haven't accounted for the anomalous southern winds, or the fact that there are two different FE models for the south.

Winds: https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Model: https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

Since you haven't contradicted the possibility of any of those points, you haven't demonstrated anything to be incorrect.

Hooray!! 

23rd of the month; I was beginning to worry that the famous winds wouldn't get their monthly trotting-out this August. 

Please read your own citations; the only anomalous thing about the southern winds is the Subject Heading in the Wiki.  They can be strong, but predictable and measurable. 

And which model are we going with?

I tend to side with the Bi-Polar model, but can't totally discount the Monopole model. Jeran of the Jeranism and Globebusters show brought to light some odd anomalies. The True airspeed seems to jump between Null and excessive speeds on some international routes.



The above comes from around the 1h32m mark of the following video by Jeran: https://youtu.be/GKKHY72x3ZU?t=5526

I also found this one interesting - The direction of a compass when approaching Australia seems to disagree with the RE Theory: https://odysee.com/@jeranism:9/max-igan-s-santiago-to-sydney-flight:b?&sunset=lbrytv

Do you remember that we looked at this airspeed data about a year ago?  Yes, the telemetry data for airspeed and ground speed is fluctuating.  Now look at the altitude and vertical velocity.  According to this data the aircraft is outclimbing an F-16; but the passengers don't seem to have noticed.  (Or they're in stasis?  Maybe that's for another thread). 

Have you watched Formula 1 on TV, from the onboard camera?  Have you watched Sky News interviewing a politician from home on Zoom?  When the picture freezes we surmise that its just a corrupted signal from Eau Rouge or Tony Blair's dining room, but when its 5,000 km from land over the South Pacific its a conspiracy. 

And Bob is right on the money with the compass thing in an aircraft fuselage; its a fairly comprehensive faraday-cage with added EM interference, which is why aircraft compass detectors are installed in aircraft extremities like wing-tips or the top of the tail.  We aren't even allowed to use ferrous screws in the installations or access panels.  Some aircraft will have a magnetic stand-by compass in the cockpit but its only useable in an emergency within a strict limitation of the aircraft's electrical systems in use, and not whilst transmitting on the radio.  It has to be individually set-up (a "compass swing") to null-out the aircraft's particular characteristics following installation.  Switching pitot-static sensor heaters on-and-off can typically give an error of +/_ 30 deg, for example.  The calibration compass is so sensitive that the operator has to remove all metalwork from his person before using it (phone, watch, belt buckle, use all-plastic ear-defenders). 

[stack]

I think"ice wall" is a not needed postulate. Past  Antarctica (which let us posit is a strip of land encircling the known world which is why US government won't let anyone go there since Byrd),

PanAm flight 50 in 1977 didn't seem to have a problem with permissions, nor after flying from Cap Town over the south pole, did they find an ice wall, an infinite frozen plane or an infinite ocean, they found Auckland.  The earth has been circumnavigated many times by many routes and the times and distances recorded all match the globe earth.

With all due respect, whatever that story was about PanAm is false. If you watch "Flat Earth Clues" by computer scientist Mark Sargent, it plainly states that since Admiral Byrd, nobody has been allowed to go back to Antartica. Professor Sargent feels this is due to an ice wall, which I respectfully disagree with, preferring an infinite ocean model beyond Antartica, but, either way, it is historical point of fact that Antarctica has been cordoned off since the 1950's. 

"Professor Sargent"?

From wikipedia (you can check the sources yourself):
"Sargent's studies at Western Washington University were interrupted when he was charged for manufacturing fireworks.[2] He worked in IT support in Colorado, and relocated to Washington in 2015. As of 2021, he lives on Whidbey Island.[3][4]

Sargent has been a competitive video game player[3] and has worked as a software analyst[1], but he has no scientific background.[2]"

And your "preference" for a model is neither here nor there.

And yes, the Antarctic Treaty was enacted in 1959:

"The Antarctic Treaty was signed in Washington on 1 December 1959 by the twelve countries whose scientists had been active in and around Antarctica during the International Geophysical Year (IGY) of 1957-58. It entered into force in 1961 and has since been acceded to by many other nations. The total number of Parties to the Treaty is now 54."

That's 54 countries...

Main provisions of the treaty:

Art. I - Antarctica shall be used for peaceful purposes only
Art. II - Freedom of scientific investigation in Antarctica and cooperation toward that end… shall continue
Art. III - Scientific observations and results from Antarctica shall be exchanged and made freely available
https://www.ats.aq/e/antarctictreaty.html

Any stories you hear to the contrary is social media misinformation designed to inveigle and distract from the simple fact of the matter that the US government has been in panic mode over Antarctica ever since the Byrd expeditions.

Kind of ironic that you cite a Mark Sargent YouTube video but at the same time decry "social media misinformation" - YouTube is Social Media, in case you hadn't noticed.

As well, there's plenty of info out there about Antartica exploration that predates the advent of "Social Media". Did you forget about the pre-internet era of human existence?

Professor Sargent believes Admiral Byrd found the ice wall, I think he found more ocean, but either way, what he found does not fit the globetard model, and that is just an empirical fact of the matter.

Again, "Professor"? Where is that coming from?  Please present documented and verified empirical facts regarding your assertions. I'm afraid citing a character on Youtube will not suffice.

[WTF_Seriously]

I tend to side with the Bi-Polar model,

Yet you fail to address any of this:

Simple zetetic observation of solar noon determines that the Bi-Polar model is impossible.

Solar noon happens at the same time for every location on a given longitude.  In either RE or FE this occurs when the sun is closest to any location and is the time when the sun appears highest in the sky.  The only way for this to be possible is for lines of longitude to be straight and all observers along a given longitude to be looking directly along the longitude line either north or south depending on latitude.  There is only one line on the bi-polar model that satisfies this requirement and that is the straight line drawn directly from north to south no matter the orientation of the continents.  No other line of longitude on the map will satisfy these conditions.

So, we can forget about anamolous winds and the nonsense that we don't accurately know distances on earth.  Simple observatioin proves the bi-polar map false.  Are you a zetetic or not, Tom?

Perhaps because there isn't any way for you to deflect down some rabbit hole?  This is simple  zetetic observation.  No anomolies.  No "but look at this video about instruments" or "This guy said this.  RE is impossible".  Just observation and simple geometry that your bi-polar model can't reconcile.  It's typical of your FE defense.  You, usually ineffectively try to disprove the RE model by saying it can't solve 3rd order differential equations while the FE model can't solve 1+1=2 when it comes to the simple observations of the sun, moon and stars.

[AlephNull]

Operation Paperclip was when US government illegally got Nazi rocket people to join them in order to develop the space program. A couple years later, strange things started happening - Operation Highjump (part of Admiral Byrd Antarctica expedition) involved possible contact with Byrd and space aliens, and perhaps some escaped Nazis also who had a secret base in Antarctica and were (Foolishly) trying to partner with the space aliens. I think the aliens let Byrd go basically but he had to promise to never come back, nor allow anyone else to come back. The space aliens are from beyond the strip of Antarctica that encircle our "island world" from some other "island world" of their own, part of the infinite ocean plane of "island worlds". The Nazis likely were killed by the aliens and / or stupidly thought they could cross the inter-world ocean past Antarctica and they all sunk due to tempests / tidal waves far in excess of anything we have in our (comparably calm) world. The aliens are content to guard the border and possibly secretly cooperate with US government, so long as we keep it all on the down low, because humanity is not ready for this revelation. Professor Sargent was almost correct except for the ice wall thing. There might even be a small-ish one but not a "dome" per ce. I think our "island world" occurs naturally and is not constructed artificially but that is another topic. Lots of strange stuff happened in short sequence: Operation Paperclip, Operation Highjump, Roswell Landings, and of course the space program itself. It all ties together and cannot be explained by the globetard model. Also they won't let you fly from San Tiago , Chile to Sidney, Australia b/c the distance on the flat earth is too long and a normal DC-10 aeroplane cannot make that journey without refueling whereas it could make it were the earth round. That is the smoking gun right there for the globetard model.

[ichoosereality]

I think"ice wall" is a not needed postulate. Past  Antarctica (which let us posit is a strip of land encircling the known world which is why US government won't let anyone go there since Byrd),

PanAm flight 50 in 1977 didn't seem to have a problem with permissions, nor after flying from Cap Town over the south pole, did they find an ice wall, an infinite frozen plane or an infinite ocean, they found Auckland.  The earth has been circumnavigated many times by many routes and the times and distances recorded all match the globe earth.

With all due respect, whatever that story was about PanAm is false. If you watch "Flat Earth Clues" by computer scientist Mark Sargent, it plainly states that since Admiral Byrd, nobody has been allowed to go back to Antartica.

Oh give me a break.  There are and continue to be many expeditions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Antarctic_expeditions
You can even go as a tourist https://duckduckgo.com/?q=antarctica+tourism&t=osx&ia=web

Mark Sargent's video is utter BS.  It is a myth that for the first few thousand years of our civilization everyone thought the world was flat.  As just one obvious example why would Eratostheenes have set out to measure the circumference (in about 200 BCE) if he though it was flat?   We teach that the earth is a globe for the same reason we teach that 2+2=4.  Because they are true.   Sargent offers no support for any of his assertions, he just asserts them.  But even Sargent does NOT say Antartica is "off limits" but a treaty prevents colonization, not visitation or overflights.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Operation Paperclip was when US government illegally got Nazi rocket people to join them in order to develop the space program. A couple years later, strange things started happening - Operation Highjump (part of Admiral Byrd Antarctica expedition) involved possible contact with Byrd and space aliens, and perhaps some escaped Nazis also who had a secret base in Antarctica and were (Foolishly) trying to partner with the space aliens. I think the aliens let Byrd go basically but he had to promise to never come back, nor allow anyone else to come back. The space aliens are from beyond the strip of Antarctica that encircle our "island world" from some other "island world" of their own, part of the infinite ocean plane of "island worlds". The Nazis likely were killed by the aliens and / or stupidly thought they could cross the inter-world ocean past Antarctica and they all sunk due to tempests / tidal waves far in excess of anything we have in our (comparably calm) world. The aliens are content to guard the border and possibly secretly cooperate with US government, so long as we keep it all on the down low, because humanity is not ready for this revelation. Professor Sargent was almost correct except for the ice wall thing. There might even be a small-ish one but not a "dome" per ce. I think our "island world" occurs naturally and is not constructed artificially but that is another topic. Lots of strange stuff happened in short sequence: Operation Paperclip, Operation Highjump, Roswell Landings, and of course the space program itself. It all ties together and cannot be explained by the globetard model. Also they won't let you fly from San Tiago , Chile to Sidney, Australia b/c the distance on the flat earth is too long and a normal DC-10 aeroplane cannot make that journey without refueling whereas it could make it were the earth round. That is the smoking gun right there for the globetard model.

A lot to cover there, Aleph.  Not sure if I've followed it all. 

Who is "they", that won't let us fly from San Tiago to Sidney (sic).  Is it the Aliens or the Nazis who are preventing flights between the sovereign nations of Chile and Australia (and, incidentally, New Zealand) in international skies?   You are correct that the DC10 won't cut it, as most, or all, of the remaining non-military ones are now exclusively used as freighters.   

Until recently, the direct flights between Santiago and Sydney took place 3 times per week by a LATAM/Qantas codeshare Boeing 787 Dreamliner.  Did it in around 13 hours westbound and 12 hours eastbound if I remember correctly.