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Offline xasop

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Re: European federalism
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2021, 03:35:19 PM »
Whoa whoa whoa. The UK is a country of countries, remember?
That term doesn't actually mean anything. Some dickhead thought it sounded nicer than "federation" and now nobody in the UK knows what a country is anymore. But the UK isn't even a federation — in a federation, you have constitutional separation between the powers of the federal government and the powers of states. In the UK, devolved parliaments live and die at the pleasure of Her Majesty. I'm not proposing the EU go that far.

We have an English national anthem and our own flag.
You don't have your own anthem. It's the same as that of the UK. The provinces of the Netherlands also have their own flags, and they've been part of the same state since 1581.

None of this means anything unless you assume that a nation and a state are the one and the same. They aren't. Read my OP.

Scotland, Wales & NI have their own. But Arizona doesn't have a national anthem. Queensland doesn't have a national anthem. You are looking to have a federation of European states ... and to turn a country into a state, you need to strip it of all the things that make it a country.
Since we've established that the English don't know what a country is, let's clarify terminology. I'm proposing to strip them of the things that make them independent states. I am not proposing to strip them of the things that make them nations.

Yes, that is broadly obvious. So Australia should become part of the Federation of China then?
Irrelevant.

We already have monetary unity with the euro,
We? Are you self-identifying again?  ::)
No, Thork, the people who sell me items are the ones who charge me in euros. I can't self-identify the currency they accept.

They've done a great job for Germany and her exports. I'd argue a 30% unemployment rate amongst the youth in Spain and financial oblivion for Greece is a pretty high price to pay for cheaper BMWs though.
Do you have any evidence that Spain and Greece would have been better off without the financial support of the EU?

And this makes you safer, does it? I mean, you could have also bought some firearms in the czech republic and concealed them legally on the train, and arrived in Amsterdam where that is utterly illegal, but like you say ... no one checked. You could also have stuffed your pockets with drugs in Amsterdam that you bought perfectly legally in a bar, and import them to France where you cannot ... and again, like you say ... no one checked. And there is no paper trail because you paid cash as you all use the euro. Sounds like heaven.  ::)
You've made an excellent argument for federation here. If the EU were a federation, we could work towards uniformity of weapon and drug laws. Well done, you're learning!

Why do you want all the countries to be the same? The awesome thing about Europe is that they are all different. Now you've rocked up in the Netherlands and are demanding everything looks like Germany. You are going to be loathed by your new brethren.
Did I say I wanted all the countries to be the same? England and Scotland share a currency, a single market, a head of state, a language, and are governed by the same customs, immigration and taxation authorities. Are they the same?

No ... we left them as countries. Country of countries, remember? You know, the solution you turned your nose up at. The Scots are still scots. They still eat deep fried Mars bars and wear skirts. We didn't turn them into a state.
As I said, the "countries" of the UK have less power than states do in federations. It's almost as if nations and states aren't the same thing.

Yes, a problem recognised more than 2000 years ago in a town called Babel. What a waste of time and money to do all that translating.
So you want to preserve people's languages, but you don't want to translate between them. Is your position just that people in different countries should never talk to each other? You might want to get off the Internet.

Country of countries ... and we all agreed English would be the first language ... everything else is a bonus and OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
You agreed that, and forced it on the other cultures who never wanted you invading their island in the first place.

I think you'll find most Europeans DON'T accept this. You are speaking on behalf of a group of people you have recently foisted yourself upon, and now you seem to know how they feel about spending their money on other people.
You, on the other hand, are speaking on behalf of a group of people you voted to have nothing to do with. Why do you presume to know what they want any better than I do?

German people are not German politicians and corporations. German people would pay out a lot. German corporations would make a killing on the subsidised Euro. Why don't you understand economics?
The German people are the ones electing the EU government. Why don't you understand democracy?

8 out of 27 countries in the EU have conscription. That's not a career choice.
Sounds like another great reason to federalise and abolish conscription for everyone!
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: European federalism
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2021, 04:39:19 PM »
Country of countries ... and we all agreed English would be the first language ... everything else is a bonus and OPTIONAL, not mandatory.
You agreed that, and forced it on the other cultures who never wanted you invading their island in the first place.
I think you'll find that it is our island and that they just happened to be living on it.


Whoa whoa whoa. The UK is a country of countries, remember?
That term doesn't actually mean anything. Some dickhead thought it sounded nicer than "federation" and now nobody in the UK knows what a country is anymore. But the UK isn't even a federation — in a federation, you have constitutional separation between the powers of the federal government and the powers of states. In the UK, devolved parliaments live and die at the pleasure of Her Majesty. I'm not proposing the EU go that far.
They don't. Her majesty has zero say in anything.

So what you are saying is that the countries of the UK are more like states of a federation? 🤔 ... ok, I'll hold onto that thought for a while.

Did I say I wanted all the countries to be the same? England and Scotland share a currency, a single market, a head of state, a language, and are governed by the same customs, immigration and taxation authorities. Are they the same?

Oh, I get it now. What this thread should have said from the outset was "I want the EU to be run more like the United Kingdom".

I totally agree. Thanks for playing.
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Offline xasop

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Re: European federalism
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2021, 04:48:38 PM »
So what you are saying is that the countries of the UK are more like states of a federation? 🤔 ... ok, I'll hold onto that thought for a while.
No, they are not like that at all.

Oh, I get it now. What this thread should have said from the outset was "I want the EU to be run more like the United Kingdom".
I mean, yes, that is a natural conclusion of saying the EU should be a unified state. A unified state is more like a unified state than a supranational confederation. If your entire argument was based on not understanding how either the EU or the UK works, that's not my problem.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 05:47:45 PM by xasop »
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol