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Offline Tom Bishop

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I have made a new article on the wiki: Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System

This is a companion to my previous article, the NOAA Solar Calculator, and should both be read.

It is often alleged that we need only download an astronomy software to see that the Round Earth system predicts celestial events, and that this is a demonstration of the superiority and fact of the Round Earth model. Users on this forum have linked us to astronomy software as their evidence and refuse to entertain the idea that they are just linking to pattern-based methods rather than anything to do with the heliocentric system.

It has also been alleged that the seemingly simple math used in Astronomical calculation textbooks are "really" based on keplerian or newtonian orbital dynamics. This article addresses that.

I have collected a number of resources showing that the pervasive myth that the Round Earth Theory has been validated, to be false. I ask that any challenger in opposition demonstrates with real evidence that astronomy can predict the motions of the planets as they are described in the Round Earth Theory. More evidence than a link to an obscure pdf or unverified model. It will need to be demonstrated that a model, according to the geometry of the heliocentric system, can predict any positions of the planets at all!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:03:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 12:04:25 AM »
What counts as "real evidence"?
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 12:09:39 AM »
What counts as "real evidence"?

Not evidence: "Go and download Stellarium, it's a Round Earth model."

Evidence: "Here is evidence that Stellarium is using a Round Earth model. Look here, we can see that the equations are using the Round Earth distances as starting points."

Evidence: "Here is a study showing a successful astronomy model."
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 12:27:32 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 12:10:42 AM »
I have made a new article on the wiki: Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System

This is a companion to my previous article, the NOAA Solar Calculator, and should both be read.

It is often alleged that we need only download an astronomy software to see that the Round Earth system predicts celestial events, and that this is a demonstration of the superiority and fact of the Round Earth model. Users on this forum have linked us to astronomy software as their evidence and refuse to entertain the idea that they are just linking to pattern-based methods rather than anything to do with the heliocentric system.

It has also been alleged that the seemingly simple math used in Astronomical calculation textbooks are "really" based high level keplerian orbital dynamics. This article addresses that.

I have collected a number of resources showing that the perverted myth that the Round Earth Theory has been validated to be false. I ask that any challenger in opposition demonstrates with real evidence that astronomy can predict the motions of the planets as they are described in the Round Earth Theory. More evidence than a link to an obscure pdf or unverified model. It will need to be demonstrated that the math, according to the geometry of the heliocentric system, can predict any positions of the planets at all!
You are aware that Kepler and Newton used empirical observations of the astronomical bodies to derive their models right? You're probably aware that Newton was left perplexed with a tiny deviation in the behavior of Mercury that didn't match his model. And you may have heard the story of how Einstein finally fixed the model for Mercury with GR.

I think you are saying that because we store all these observations in charts, that invalidates the model that is able to predict them. Is that right?

Let me ask you this... in what format do you think these numbers are stored? When you use one of these many planetarium types of software, how does it tell you where the moon will be at your lat/long at any given time? Do you think we have charts of the future location of the moon for every possible time at every possible location on the globe? For the stars, they mostly don't move, so just narrow it down to the location. If we have the position of every star in a big chart, how do they know where to draw that on your screen? They need to factor in your lat/long in some way right? How do you think they do that?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 12:18:10 AM »
You are aware that Kepler and Newton used empirical observations of the astronomical bodies to derive their models right?

You know how to Google. Show that Kepler or Newton had any successful models based on orbital mechanics that predicted reality.

Quote
You're probably aware that Newton was left perplexed with a tiny deviation in the behavior of Mercury that didn't match his model. And you may have heard the story of how Einstein finally fixed the model for Mercury with GR.

Google. Demonstrate the orbital mechanics. Einstein didn't solve the multiple body problems or the major problems in celestial mechanics.

Quote
I think you are saying that because we store all these observations in charts, that invalidates the model that is able to predict them. Is that right?

Let me ask you this... in what format do you think these numbers are stored? When you use one of these many planetarium types of software, how does it tell you where the moon will be at your lat/long at any given time? Do you think we have charts of the future location of the moon for every possible time at every possible location on the globe? For the stars, they mostly don't move, so just narrow it down to the location. If we have the position of every star in a big chart, how do they know where to draw that on your screen? They need to factor in your lat/long in some way right? How do you think they do that?

Astronomical events come in patterns. The ancients were able to predict events such as eclipses because they occur in a pattern that can be expressed with an equation. Astronomy as a whole is based on patterns, not "celestial mechanics."
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 12:26:51 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 12:31:35 AM »
You are aware that Kepler and Newton used empirical observations of the astronomical bodies to derive their models right?

You know how to Google. Show that Kepler or Newton had any successful models based on orbital mechanics that predicted reality.

Quote
You're probably aware that Newton was left perplexed with a tiny deviation in the behavior of Mercury that didn't match his model. And you may have heard the story of how Einstein finally fixed the model for Mercury with GR.

Google. Demonstrate the orbital mechanics. Einstein didn't solve the multiple body problems or the major problems in celestial mechanics.

Quote
I think you are saying that because we store all these observations in charts, that invalidates the model that is able to predict them. Is that right?

Let me ask you this... in what format do you think these numbers are stored? When you use one of these many planetarium types of software, how does it tell you where the moon will be at your lat/long at any given time? Do you think we have charts of the future location of the moon for every possible time at every possible location on the globe? For the stars, they mostly don't move, so just narrow it down to the location. If we have the position of every star in a big chart, how do they know where to draw that on your screen? They need to factor in your lat/long in some way right? How do you think they do that?

Astronomical events come in patterns. The ancients were able to predict events such as eclipses because they occur in a pattern that can be expressed with an equation. Astronomy as a whole is based on patterns, not "celestial mechanics."

I'm already busy with the moon tilt illusion I'm working on for you, so I don't have much time for this. Here are a few googles you might find interesting:
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/comp/ppcomp.html
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-200-year-old-mystery-of-mercurys-orbit-solved-1458642219

I do not refute that all of this information comes from patterns. Look at how the calculations are done, and you'll see a whole list of parameters that were achieved through pure observation. And in that first link, you'll see that they are only presenting things down to a certain level of precision.

But the fact remains, you cannot project a star onto a screen in the correct position unless you first assume the world is a globe.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 12:47:54 AM »
I'm already busy with the moon tilt illusion I'm working on for you, so I don't have much time for this. Here are a few googles you might find interesting:
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/comp/ppcomp.html

It is apparent that Celestial Mechanics can attempt to describe orbital motions, and "positions" can be "computed." The problem is that they are unable to predict anything.

Quote
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-200-year-old-mystery-of-mercurys-orbit-solved-1458642219

That's an article. I can imagine that a different version of gravity would probably better explain why mercury moves faster or differently in the sky compared to other planets too. It is not a demonstration of celestial mechanics, or showcase its predictive power. You would need to demonstrate that this has anything to do with what we are talking about.

We can take the current three body problem models of Celestial Mechanics and change around the gravity of the sun to show that bodies generally can behave quicker when near it depending on our theory of gravity. None of this is a demonstration that the model can actually predict the positions of bodies into the future. That is far from prediction of the planets in the sky.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 01:16:56 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline BillO

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 01:49:47 AM »
This is a companion to my previous article, the NOAA Solar Calculator, and should both be read.
Well, your article on the NOAA calculator was wrong and I explained why.  I'll give your new article a read though and see what it says.
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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 01:59:44 AM »
I'm already busy with the moon tilt illusion I'm working on for you, so I don't have much time for this. Here are a few googles you might find interesting:
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/comp/ppcomp.html

It is apparent that Celestial Mechanics can attempt to describe orbital motions, and "positions" can be "computed." The problem is that they are unable to predict anything.

Quote
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-200-year-old-mystery-of-mercurys-orbit-solved-1458642219

That's an article. I can imagine that a different version of gravity would probably better explain why mercury moves faster or differently in the sky compared to other planets too. It is not a demonstration of celestial mechanics, or showcase its predictive power. You would need to demonstrate that this has anything to do with what we are talking about.

We can take the current three body problem models of Celestial Mechanics and change around the gravity of the sun to show that bodies generally can behave quicker when near it depending on our theory of gravity. None of this is a demonstration that the model can actually predict the positions of bodies into the future. That is far from prediction of the planets in the sky.
I'm sitting here scratching my head. I think we mean different things by the word "prediction." That's got to be the explanation. I'm not sure what you mean by "prediction," but I can tell you what I mean. What I mean is that if you tell me where a body is in it's orbit around the Sun with it's position and current velocity, I can predict for you where it's likely to go in the future. The accuracy of the prediction is going to vary based on how accurate the initial information was, and it will also depend highly on how accurate my model of the other objects in the solar system is. As the prediction goes forward in time, it is likely to drift farther away from accuracy. So, yes we can make predictions. We know when objects are coming our way. We know of many large asteroids, but we're pretty sure that none of them will endanger us any time soon. How do we know? Because we've used these formulas to predict the future trajectory of every large object we are aware of. That's a "prediction." You must mean something else.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 03:16:31 AM »
I'm already busy with the moon tilt illusion I'm working on for you, so I don't have much time for this. Here are a few googles you might find interesting:
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/comp/ppcomp.html

It is apparent that Celestial Mechanics can attempt to describe orbital motions, and "positions" can be "computed." The problem is that they are unable to predict anything.

Quote
https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-200-year-old-mystery-of-mercurys-orbit-solved-1458642219

That's an article. I can imagine that a different version of gravity would probably better explain why mercury moves faster or differently in the sky compared to other planets too. It is not a demonstration of celestial mechanics, or showcase its predictive power. You would need to demonstrate that this has anything to do with what we are talking about.

We can take the current three body problem models of Celestial Mechanics and change around the gravity of the sun to show that bodies generally can behave quicker when near it depending on our theory of gravity. None of this is a demonstration that the model can actually predict the positions of bodies into the future. That is far from prediction of the planets in the sky.
I'm sitting here scratching my head. I think we mean different things by the word "prediction." That's got to be the explanation. I'm not sure what you mean by "prediction," but I can tell you what I mean. What I mean is that if you tell me where a body is in it's orbit around the Sun with it's position and current velocity, I can predict for you where it's likely to go in the future. The accuracy of the prediction is going to vary based on how accurate the initial information was, and it will also depend highly on how accurate my model of the other objects in the solar system is. As the prediction goes forward in time, it is likely to drift farther away from accuracy. So, yes we can make predictions. We know when objects are coming our way. We know of many large asteroids, but we're pretty sure that none of them will endanger us any time soon. How do we know? Because we've used these formulas to predict the future trajectory of every large object we are aware of. That's a "prediction." You must mean something else.

Just look at what you linked us to:

Quote
The Precession of Mercury

The orbits of the planets are slight ovals, with the sun located toward one end of the oval. The point at which the planet comes closest to the sun is the perihelion, and the farthest point of the oval is the aphelion. The oval orbits themselves move. As if the sun were a pin stuck into them, the orbits slowly rotate around it, in a motion called precession.

It's talking about about its assumed orbit, and why the planet Mercury's "motions in the sky" are odd compared to the other planets.

Here is a basic gravity simulator: https://www.testtubegames.com/gravity.html

We can change the elements and see that if we change gravity, we can get the little elements to move differently. Since Mercury seems to move too fast in its changing positions of the sky, another version of gravity may seem to work a little better. We are just changing gravity on an incredibly basic model.

Explaining why the apparent changing position Mercury moves a little more off from its pattern repeating patterns (assumed orbits) might work better with a different type of gravity, is something that is vastly different than a model of orbital mechanics that can predict the position of mercury in the sky.

Read what it it talking about. It is not talking about the prediction of the position of mercury in the sky. Not at all. It is talking about some elements of its assumed orbit when the patterns in the sky repeat themselves that would work better if gravity were different.

Placing little balls on an online gravity simulator to 'orbit' each other, and trying to find the right version of gravity that makes the closest ball move a little more in its repeating patterns, because in reality it moves more in its repeating patterns, and under your interpretation on what is happening when seen from earth, is not what we are talking about here. It is possible to analyze the heliocentric model on a very simple level like this, and change the reach of gravity to maybe "explain" something a little better on a high theoretical level about the assumed system, but using the motions of those bodies to actually predict the future position of a body is, due to the 3 body/n-body problem, impossible.

The whole of astronomy is based on fictitious explanations to "explain" phenomena. Einstein's fictitious phenomena might be better than Newton's fictitious phenomena to explain something about a fictitious system. But until real prediction of bodies can be performed to validate the system, the fictitious system and the fictitious explanations that are a part of it remain just that -- fiction.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 03:59:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2018, 04:12:00 AM »
I'd really like to help you to understand this, but it's going to take some time. I'm going back to the tilt illusion for now. As my last note on the subject, I'm convinced more than ever that we're not using the same vocabulary. We must be seeing the same things, but they mean something different to each of us. I'll once again back up until I think we're on common ground...

The formulas and charts to predict the future locations of the planets ARE based on past observations. They break those observations down into patterns and extend those patterns forward in time. We agree so far.

Extending the pattern forward in time like this is a prediction, and it works in a geocentric model or a heliocentric model. Yeah I'm agreeing that these predictions worked under the geocentric model. We're on common ground. The geocentric model was every bit as accurate as the later heliocentric model. The only real difference was that the heliocentric model was a lot simpler. The math was simpler, and the diagrams were simpler. So the heliocentric model gained favor rapidly.

Here we're going to start to diverge, but I'm still talking history here...
It wasn't until Newton's insight about the inverse-square law that the elliptical orbits of the planets suddenly made sense. The heliocentric model already had the elliptical model based on pure observation, and Newton used that to deduce his inverse square law of gravity. Disagree with his conclusions if you like, but that's how he came up with it, and hopefully we agree on that part.

Edit: Still talking history here, I'd like to note that both the geocentric and the heliocentric models at this point had a round Earth. That was not in dispute.

Here's where our ideas are about to diverge...
We can use either the geocentric or the heliocentric models to predict the future locations of the planets. I think you'll find these charts all use the heliocentric model these days because that model is a lot simpler. (That simply means assuming the planets move in ellipses around the Sun and adding precession if they are accurate enough. No they don't generally re-simulate the paths of the orbits based on the mass of the Sun or any of that... just the historical patterns of the planets.) But then once we have that, how do we tell where they will be in our sky at any given place on the Earth? In that NOAA spreadsheet you have mentioned, I would like to draw your attention to cells B3 and B4. These are the observer's latitude and longitude. The locations of the bodies is presented given the observer's lat/long under the assumption that the Earth is a globe. Take a look at cell W2:
=DEGREES(ACOS(COS(RADIANS(90.833))/(COS(RADIANS($B$3))*COS(RADIANS(T2)))-TAN(RADIANS($B$3))*TAN(RADIANS(T2))))
Notice that the latitude is going into some trig there. That isn't projecting the sun onto a flat earth. That's RE math there.

Edit: One last note. You seem really fascinated with the N-body problem. We have no analytical solution for this. Meaning, there does not exist a mathematical formula to solve this in general. All that means is we have to do it with computer simulations instead. Not really a flaw in RE in any way.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:15:37 AM by ICanScienceThat »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2018, 04:57:14 AM »
As my last note on the subject, I'm convinced more than ever that we're not using the same vocabulary. We must be seeing the same things, but they mean something different to each of us. I'll once again back up until I think we're on common ground...

All I can point out is, again, that the article you posted is not talking about the position of mercury in the sky. It's talking about a particular observation mercury is seen to do when the pattern of its motion on the sky repeats itself. Einstein's version of gravity is a little different, and so on a high level "basic gravity simulator," or otherwise simple model, the bodies closer to the center would move a little differently.

Since the Flat Earth theory also has the planets moving around the sun, with Mercury at the closest position, I don't find it odd that a different version of the phenomena that keeps the planets moving around the sun could cause the most interior body to move a little differently in its repeating patterns in the sky.

This is a basic modification to a high level and theoretical system. But we are just talking about basic orbit types on a basic and high level model, and slight adjustments to make some interior planet move faster or slower based on your imagined central pulling phenomena. It is an imagined explanation.

To prove the model there would need to be a prediction of a body in the sky and expression of the celestial mechanics. If the article you had posted claimed that Einstein predicted the position of Mercury in the sky this would be a very different conversation. He did not do that, and the articles surrounding this event admit as such.

Quote
But then once we have that, how do we tell where they will be in our sky at any given place on the Earth? In that NOAA spreadsheet you have mentioned, I would like to draw your attention to cells B3 and B4.

These are the observer's latitude and longitude. The locations of the bodies is presented given the observer's lat/long under the assumption that the Earth is a globe. Take a look at cell W2:
=DEGREES(ACOS(COS(RADIANS(90.833))/(COS(RADIANS($B$3))*COS(RADIANS(T2)))-TAN(RADIANS($B$3))*TAN(RADIANS(T2))))
Notice that the latitude is going into some trig there. That isn't projecting the sun onto a flat earth. That's RE math there.

Why do you think it has anything to do with a Round Earth? Cell W2 is the sunset column. The time of sunset must have some sort of relationship to do with your longitude, even in the Flat Earth model. Using trig manipulations to find the relationship is entirely possible.

Quote
Edit: One last note. You seem really fascinated with the N-body problem. We have no analytical solution for this. Meaning, there does not exist a mathematical formula to solve this in general. All that means is we have to do it with computer simulations instead. Not really a flaw in RE in any way.

The impossibility for an analytical solution of the Three Body Problem means that we can't create formulas to turn the positions and movements of bodies into equations that will predict future occurrences under the heliocentric model. It means that it is impossible to create a program like Stellarium that predicts things under a Heliocentric or Round Earth model. The idea that such programs are possible is the crux of many arguments that the Round Earth model is true.

If such programs are impossible, and the prediction of bodies is really made on patterns and trends from past occurrences then it means that the Heliocentric Theory is much weaker.

It is more of a blow and punch to the nose. It shows that the model is much closer to a hypothesis than its supporters believe.

The inability to predict suggests that it is either the science or the model that is incorrect, or both. The inability to predict the positions of bodies does not lend support to the heliocentric model, and only subtracts from it. It detracts from the reputation of classical mechanics, mathematics, astronomy, et all.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 05:17:35 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 05:14:24 AM »
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1774581#msg1774581 (three body problem paradox, dependence on the sensitivity of the initial conditions of the set of differential equations, Hamiltonian formulation of the equations of celestial mechanics, homoclinic tangles)

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1935048#msg1935048 (orbital stability of the heliocentrical solar system, 300 year limit for the RE calculations, Nekhoroshev's theorem, Saari's theorem)

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2018, 07:14:09 AM »
So basically your claim is, that because NOAA doesn't seem to use orbital mechanics for their calculations, the RE is false.

First up, the linked spreadsheet:
The Sun RAD Vector isn't used for the other calculations, it is an output to show the current distance to the sun.
All formulas in the sheet are simplified to the extreme, so that they are faster to work with, thereby they are also nearly impossible to apprehend.

Second:
You seem to assume that we would use orbital mechanics for our calculations, while I would expect that we would not.
Orbital mechanics are used for simulations, not as much for calculations. This is because orbital mechanics are extremely hard to calculate over time, where all planets and moons affect each other always, and affect each other more or less dependent on their current distance.
If you want orbital mechanics based on Newtonian physics: http://universesandbox.com/ it is actually pretty fun to use, and you can play with it all you wish. It is also very accurate (as long as you don't run the simulation too fast).

Third:
Stellarium is an excellent tool, it precisely shows all observations we see in the sky, and shows all predictions. Even if Stellarium is pattern based, it still shows all observations anywhere on earth which can all be verified. Now that you've brought it up, I would like to know if you acknowledge Stellarium as a valid source of observations, or if you have a problem with it?
Is there any observation in Stellarium which you know cannot be seen in reality?

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 08:34:18 AM »
Astronomical events come in patterns. The ancients were able to predict events such as eclipses because they occur in a pattern that can be expressed with an equation.

You do realise that eclipses can only be seen from certain areas of the world, don't you?

And that the area from which an eclipse can be observed is predictable, along with its duration, path of totality, etc.?
=============================
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2018, 12:03:33 PM »
I have made a new article on the wiki: Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System

This is a companion to my previous article, the NOAA Solar Calculator, and should both be read.

It is often alleged that we need only download an astronomy software to see that the Round Earth system predicts celestial events, and that this is a demonstration of the superiority and fact of the Round Earth model. Users on this forum have linked us to astronomy software as their evidence and refuse to entertain the idea that they are just linking to pattern-based methods rather than anything to do with the heliocentric system.

It has also been alleged that the seemingly simple math used in Astronomical calculation textbooks are "really" based high level keplerian orbital dynamics. This article addresses that.

I have collected a number of resources showing that the perverted myth that the Round Earth Theory has been validated to be false. I ask that any challenger in opposition demonstrates with real evidence that astronomy can predict the motions of the planets as they are described in the Round Earth Theory. More evidence than a link to an obscure pdf or unverified model. It will need to be demonstrated that the math, according to the geometry of the heliocentric system, can predict any positions of the planets at all!
You are aware that Kepler and Newton used empirical observations of the astronomical bodies to derive their models right? You're probably aware that Newton was left perplexed with a tiny deviation in the behavior of Mercury that didn't match his model. And you may have heard the story of how Einstein finally fixed the model for Mercury with GR.

I think you are saying that because we store all these observations in charts, that invalidates the model that is able to predict them. Is that right?

Let me ask you this... in what format do you think these numbers are stored? When you use one of these many planetarium types of software, how does it tell you where the moon will be at your lat/long at any given time? Do you think we have charts of the future location of the moon for every possible time at every possible location on the globe? For the stars, they mostly don't move, so just narrow it down to the location. If we have the position of every star in a big chart, how do they know where to draw that on your screen? They need to factor in your lat/long in some way right? How do you think they do that?
And you are aware that no CGI representation (utilizing KEPLER and NEWTON formulas and GR) of the movement of the EARTH, SOLAR SYSTEM, AND GALAXIES, exists?

How hard could it actually be to produce such a representation given it is strictly math and science claims to have the correct numbers?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:10:09 PM by totallackey »

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Offline BillO

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2018, 12:18:28 PM »
So basically your claim is, that because NOAA doesn't seem to use orbital mechanics for their calculations, the RE is false.

First up, the linked spreadsheet:
The Sun RAD Vector isn't used for the other calculations, it is an output to show the current distance to the sun.
All formulas in the sheet are simplified to the extreme, so that they are faster to work with, thereby they are also nearly impossible to apprehend.

Second:
You seem to assume that we would use orbital mechanics for our calculations, while I would expect that we would not.
Orbital mechanics are used for simulations, not as much for calculations. This is because orbital mechanics are extremely hard to calculate over time, where all planets and moons affect each other always, and affect each other more or less dependent on their current distance.
If you want orbital mechanics based on Newtonian physics: http://universesandbox.com/ it is actually pretty fun to use, and you can play with it all you wish. It is also very accurate (as long as you don't run the simulation too fast).

Third:
Stellarium is an excellent tool, it precisely shows all observations we see in the sky, and shows all predictions. Even if Stellarium is pattern based, it still shows all observations anywhere on earth which can all be verified. Now that you've brought it up, I would like to know if you acknowledge Stellarium as a valid source of observations, or if you have a problem with it?
Is there any observation in Stellarium which you know cannot be seen in reality?
Well said.  However, I made your first 2 points (plus a few more) already in a reply to Mr. Bishop and he ignored it.  However, I feel these objections need to be made at least as often as the erroneous 'analyses' are presented.
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I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2018, 12:24:24 PM »
you are aware that no CGI representation (utilizing KEPLER and NEWTON formulas and GR) of the movement of the EARTH, SOLAR SYSTEM, AND GALAXIES, exists?

Disagree. I've got one on my iPad for Earth and Solar System.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2018, 12:48:46 PM »
you are aware that no CGI representation (utilizing KEPLER and NEWTON formulas and GR) of the movement of the EARTH, SOLAR SYSTEM, AND GALAXIES, exists?

Disagree. I've got one on my iPad for Earth and Solar System.
No, you do not.

Provide the program code that provides clear, unadulterated evidence of the use of Kepler, Newton, and GR formulas in the source material.

Otherwise, apologize to the forum for making such a claim and immediately cease posting here on this forum.

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2018, 01:14:46 PM »
you are aware that no CGI representation (utilizing KEPLER and NEWTON formulas and GR) of the movement of the EARTH, SOLAR SYSTEM, AND GALAXIES, exists?

Disagree. I've got one on my iPad for Earth and Solar System.
No, you do not.

Provide the program code that provides clear, unadulterated evidence of the use of Kepler, Newton, and GR formulas in the source material.

Otherwise, apologize to the forum for making such a claim and immediately cease posting here on this forum.
You got him there, ay.

It would be impossible to make a simulation using all the methods simultaneously, as they overlap.

There are plenty of simulators that use the Newtonian physics to simulate the solar system.

Quick search finds a Java project simulating 24 solar systems using newtonian and GR:
https://github.com/nicokuijpers/SolarSystemSimulator

You wont find source code for the more advanced simulators, as people generally want to make money on the advanced stuff they create.

Besides, simulating our entire galaxy where we have very limited information about the makeup of planets is as good as impossible.
Simulating our solar system is easy, and really only requires Newtonian physics.

Scientists finally created a simulation recently, which could actually simulate an entire universe being created, forming galaxies similar to the forms we observe in our universe, though this simulation still can't form all the planets, it is a huge step forward.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 01:21:02 PM by SphericalEarther »