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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: PraiseGOD on July 15, 2022, 11:42:03 AM

Title: What is the Gospel?
Post by: PraiseGOD on July 15, 2022, 11:42:03 AM
The Gospel is the good news for all…

There is an almighty God who we should fear and give glory to. A God who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. A God who is perfect, just in all his ways and rich in mercy.

We are all sinners and have fallen short of the Glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. Thus, we are all justly deserving of eternal punishment.
God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son; Jesus Christ, to die for us on the cross to pay the debt for our sins, so that through his Son we may be saved. A ‘spotless lamb’ in which there was no sin, the perfect sacrifice or substitute to take our place. This is the gift of God.

After three days and three nights, Jesus was resurrected and exalted to High Priest, King of Kings, and Lord. God recorded all this in the Holy Bible, which God gave to us through the hands of his various chosen prophets, as both a love poem and an instruction book for life.

God knew you before you were formed in your mother’s womb. It is He that has decided to draw you to him. God is greater than all and no man can pluck you out of Gods hand, only you can willingly walk away.

Jesus Christ promised that all those who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. To be raised up; the righteous, unto the resurrection of life; and the wicked, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If you have faith in Jesus and his promise, surrender to Him as Lord and Saviour, repent from your sins and keep His commandments you will inherit salvation unto eternal life. Having personally experienced the grace of God in Jesus, a believer trusts God as Creator, Jesus as Saviour, and the Holy Spirit as Helper. Jesus rewires every aspect of our lives so that the life and power of Jesus flows in us. That is what salvation is, and it goes on forever.

We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the present darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The devil and all his angels, who have been cast out from heaven for disobedience to God, are our greatest threat in this world, even though at times it seems like it is each other. But fear not, for God is with us always, even unto the end. It is his good pleasure, as a little flock, to give us the kingdom.

Those who are poor in spirit shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. Those who mourn shall be comforted. Those who are meek shall inherit the earth. Those who hunger for righteousness shall be filled. Those who are merciful shall obtain mercy. Those who are pure in heart shall see God. Those who are peacemakers shall be called children of God. Those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. Those who have been reviled, persecuted falsely, and spoken of in all manner of evil for the sake of Jesus shall be blessed. So, rejoice, and be exceedingly glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.

On that faithful day God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things will have passed away. We that overcame shall inherit all things; and God shall dwell with us as Father, and we shall be his people as sons.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2022, 11:45:54 AM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: PraiseGOD on July 15, 2022, 12:05:52 PM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.

To fear God means to have great reverence for Him. Reverence means respect and honour.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2022, 01:26:29 PM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.

To fear God means to have great reverence for Him. Reverence means respect and honour.

Why would I respect and honour a being who has the ability to prevent an innocent 10 year old child from being raped but chooses not to?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 15, 2022, 01:38:56 PM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.

To fear God means to have great reverence for Him. Reverence means respect and honour.

Why would I respect and honour a being who has the ability to prevent an innocent 10 year old child from being raped but chooses not to?
Something something, free will something.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on July 15, 2022, 01:50:10 PM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.

To fear God means to have great reverence for Him. Reverence means respect and honour.

Of course you fear your God, he's a judgmental, hate-filled, rageaholic swinging the sword to decapitate people he doesn't like.

My God is a god of love and harmony. He looks at your nasty, dark soul with sadness and pity but still harbors hope for your redemption.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2022, 02:01:21 PM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.

To fear God means to have great reverence for Him. Reverence means respect and honour.

Why would I respect and honour a being who has the ability to prevent an innocent 10 year old child from being raped but chooses not to?
Something something, free will something.

Always love that one.  Yep, she chose to be raped of her own free will.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2022, 03:36:50 PM
If you fear your father, he's probably abusive.

To fear God means to have great reverence for Him. Reverence means respect and honour.

O.o
So... Fear is not fear?
I think something got lost in translation.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 15, 2022, 03:52:20 PM
Always love that one.  Yep, she chose to be raped of her own free will.
Dude, you are being deliberately obtuse.

It's not her free will I'm talking about, it's the rapists.
OK so yes, God could have stopped that.
So then God would have to stop everyone from doing anything sinful - you can't draw a line between what we might see as the petty stuff and the really bad stuff. To God it's all bad and we either have free will or we don't.

Can you see how that wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human?

I'm not sure if the Bible really says why God gave us free will but my take is that it's the only way He could give us a choice about having a relationship with him. A relationship without choice is meaningless.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2022, 04:37:49 PM
Always love that one.  Yep, she chose to be raped of her own free will.
Dude, you are being deliberately obtuse.

It's not her free will I'm talking about, it's the rapists.
OK so yes, God could have stopped that.
So then God would have to stop everyone from doing anything sinful - you can't draw a line between what we might see as the petty stuff and the really bad stuff. To God it's all bad and we either have free will or we don't.

Can you see how that wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human?

I'm not sure if the Bible really says why God gave us free will but my take is that it's the only way He could give us a choice about having a relationship with him. A relationship without choice is meaningless.

Of course the whole free will excuse is talking about the rapist.  The point is, the girl never made a choice.  She didn't choose to be raped.  She executed no free will yet the kind, loving, caring, benevolent God doesn't give a shit about what happens to her.  You can say the same thing about children born with birth defects.  God doesn't give a shit if you are born and have to live your life as a vegetable.  It's all good.  Oh, and if your miserable existence that you made no choice to have and God didn't prevent causes you to question Him and not obediently follow him then fuck you, off to hell you go.


Can you see how that wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human?


Yes, life without being able to rape 5 year old girls without being struck down by lightning wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human.  ::)
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rushy on July 15, 2022, 06:49:37 PM
Always love that one.  Yep, she chose to be raped of her own free will.
Dude, you are being deliberately obtuse.

It's not her free will I'm talking about, it's the rapists.
OK so yes, God could have stopped that.
So then God would have to stop everyone from doing anything sinful - you can't draw a line between what we might see as the petty stuff and the really bad stuff. To God it's all bad and we either have free will or we don't.

Can you see how that wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human?

I'm not sure if the Bible really says why God gave us free will but my take is that it's the only way He could give us a choice about having a relationship with him. A relationship without choice is meaningless.

Of course the whole free will excuse is talking about the rapist.  The point is, the girl never made a choice.  She didn't choose to be raped.  She executed no free will yet the kind, loving, caring, benevolent God doesn't give a shit about what happens to her.  You can say the same thing about children born with birth defects.  God doesn't give a shit if you are born and have to live your life as a vegetable.  It's all good.  Oh, and if your miserable existence that you made no choice to have and God didn't prevent causes you to question Him and not obediently follow him then fuck you, off to hell you go.


Can you see how that wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human?


Yes, life without being able to rape 5 year old girls without being struck down by lightning wouldn't be a particularly fulfilling experience as a human.  ::)

You should follow the logic of this argument to its conclusion: the existence of free will implies the ability to choose (in which one or more of the choices is 'wrong'). Rather than be given the choice, humans should be forced to do the 'right' thing. Then, we must ask, what does it even mean to be human? If humanity is nothing more than a bunch of robots which can't make any of their own choices, should such a humanity even exist?

That is to say, if you're upset at God for allowing free will, then you're really just upset that you exist at all. The logic of "God should stop bad things from happening" always concludes with the eventuality that nothing actually happens. The universe would be dead... filled with robots with no free will.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rama Set on July 15, 2022, 07:30:36 PM
The arguement is that God could have created a universe where people had free will, evil did not exist and everyone felt completely fulfilled.  Instead he chose to create this universe.  Pretty shitty choice by God.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2022, 08:00:35 PM
I'm not against free will.

If I choose to be a crack head and end up homeless living in my own shit because of it then I get what I deserve.  If I choose to screw Rushy's 5 year old daughter and God does nothing, He's an asshole not worthy of any reverence.

I've always thought of it this way.  Not sure if Rushy has children but let's say he has a 5 year old daughter.

Rushy opens his daughters bedroom door and sees her lying on the bed naked, crying.  Next to the bed is some dude with his pants around his ankles in the process of getting a hard on.  What does Rushy do?

God throws his hands up and says, "Meh.  Free will." then turns around a walks out while closing the door behind Him.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rushy on July 15, 2022, 08:17:33 PM
The arguement is that God could have created a universe where people had free will, evil did not exist and everyone felt completely fulfilled.  Instead he chose to create this universe.  Pretty shitty choice by God.

Free will, as a choice between good and evil acts, does not exist if evil itself does not exist.

What does Rushy do?

[sounds of a woodchipper running in the background]

God throws his hands up and says, "Meh.  Free will." then turns around a walks out while closing the door behind Him.

The problem is that God's actions as a total obviously impact the universe differently than a single human's choices in the same situation. For God, we must apply one action to the entire universe simultaneously (that is unless you think God would save someone's daughter in one case and not in another, not entirely impossible depending on the religion). If God stops all evil actions all the time, this, again, means there is no such thing as free will.

To put it another way, imagine I'm now omnipotent. My morality is now total law. I define Good and Evil. I decide that allowing Evil is, itself, Evil and therefore no one is allowed to do Evil anymore. Is this a good universe where you would like to live? A place where some omnipotent Rushy decides what you can and can't do? I don't think you would like that.

Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2022, 08:36:42 PM
The arguement is that God could have created a universe where people had free will, evil did not exist and everyone felt completely fulfilled.  Instead he chose to create this universe.  Pretty shitty choice by God.

Free will, as a choice between good and evil acts, does not exist if evil itself does not exist.

What does Rushy do?

[sounds of a woodchipper running in the background]

God throws his hands up and says, "Meh.  Free will." then turns around a walks out while closing the door behind Him.

The problem is that God's actions as a total obviously impact the universe differently than a single human's choices in the same situation. For God, we must apply one action to the entire universe simultaneously (that is unless you think God would save someone's daughter in one case and not in another, not entirely impossible depending on the religion). If God stops all evil actions all the time, this, again, means there is no such thing as free will.

To put it another way, imagine I'm now omnipotent. My morality is now total law. I define Good and Evil. I decide that allowing Evil is, itself, Evil and therefore no one is allowed to do Evil anymore. Is this a good universe where you would like to live? A place where some omnipotent Rushy decides what you can and can't do? I don't think you would like that.

It's an interesting philosophical discussion.  I just call bullshit on folks who want to claim that their god is some loving, kind, benevolent being.  Take free will out of the discussion.  You wouldn't want to live in a world where, say, no child is ever born with spina bifida?  My neighbor was born with it and has to spend his entire life in a wheelchair.  Nice guy that God is.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2022, 08:40:28 PM
Rushy is right.  Its the problem with Free Will.

Remember, the entire Old Testimate is full of God's medling to try and fix 'Evil'.  He turned a city to salt and flooded the entire world (except one super good family), killing everyone, including innocent babies and fetuses.  The world was still evil after a short time.
He then sent down Jesus (himself).  THAT didn't work either.

Evil must exist because we have free will.  And God the cop didn't work.  Literal Genocide didn't stop it.  Which means that Free Will inevitably leads to evil existing.
And as Rusy said, God would need to personally intervene in every single act of pain.  But lets say God stops all rapists by making them die if they rape someone.  He then has to define Rape.  Is it rape if they're married?  If she wants to stop half way through?  WE say yes, but if God says yes, then that means he's probably gonna kill alot more people.  People who might not want God to kill them.

If God removes the concept of Rape from existence, how would he do it?  Well, we need to determine why people rape and remove that.  They rape because they're horny (which is what you need to be to want to make babies) or they want to overpower someone, which is part of a larger system of dominance, which helps keep us alive and masters of the world.  "The meek shall inherit the earth" doesn't work if said meek get eaten by wolves.


So yeah... its complicated shit.
I mean, we had enough food, water, shelter, and land for most of human history.  Hell, we STILL could feed everyone.  We just don't want to.



The arguement is that God could have created a universe where people had free will, evil did not exist and everyone felt completely fulfilled.  Instead he chose to create this universe.  Pretty shitty choice by God.

Free will, as a choice between good and evil acts, does not exist if evil itself does not exist.

What does Rushy do?

[sounds of a woodchipper running in the background]

God throws his hands up and says, "Meh.  Free will." then turns around a walks out while closing the door behind Him.

The problem is that God's actions as a total obviously impact the universe differently than a single human's choices in the same situation. For God, we must apply one action to the entire universe simultaneously (that is unless you think God would save someone's daughter in one case and not in another, not entirely impossible depending on the religion). If God stops all evil actions all the time, this, again, means there is no such thing as free will.

To put it another way, imagine I'm now omnipotent. My morality is now total law. I define Good and Evil. I decide that allowing Evil is, itself, Evil and therefore no one is allowed to do Evil anymore. Is this a good universe where you would like to live? A place where some omnipotent Rushy decides what you can and can't do? I don't think you would like that.

It's an interesting philosophical discussion.  I just call bullshit on folks who want to claim that their god is some loving, kind, benevolent being.  Take free will out of the discussion.  You wouldn't want to live in a world where, say, no child is ever born with spina bifida?  My neighbor was born with it and has to spend his entire life in a wheelchair.  Nice guy that God is.
Imagine a world where no one had any illnesses or imperfections and didn't die?
Diseases are population control because we're basically apex preditors.  We spread EVERWHERE and without something to kill us off, our population would be far too great far too fast.  Heck, it is NOW.
Would you wanna live in a 20 billion population world?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: markjo on July 15, 2022, 08:51:02 PM
The Gospel is the good news for all…

Which gospel?  You do realize that there are a lot more gospels than just the 4 that are in the bible, don't you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2022, 09:08:47 PM
Imagine a world where no one had any illnesses or imperfections and didn't die?
Diseases are population control because we're basically apex preditors.  We spread EVERWHERE and without something to kill us off, our population would be far too great far too fast.  Heck, it is NOW.
Would you wanna live in a 20 billion population world?

That one's pretty easily solved.  There will be emotional ramifications to humans, though.  But hey, God's all knowing and all powerful and such.  He knows the downside of every decision He could make before He makes it and could put other things in place to alleviate any potential issues.  Being this God guy is tough.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 15, 2022, 10:18:38 PM
The point is, the girl never made a choice.  She didn't choose to be raped.  She executed no free will yet the kind, loving, caring, benevolent God doesn't give a shit about what happens to her.
Obviously not true.
God can allow us to have free will and still care deeply about the bad things which happen as a consequence. How could we truly have free will if we don’t have the ability to harm one another? I think pretty much everyone would agree that free will is important for us to have, but here you want to limit it. You have picked a deliberately extreme example but I’m sure there are plenty of other examples of things which the world would be better off without. If God didn’t allow us to do those things then we wouldn’t have free will. You can’t have free will and have limits on that. It’s a contradiction.

Quote
You can say the same thing about children born with birth defects.  God doesn't give a shit if you are born and have to live your life as a vegetable.  It's all good.
Wrong again about how God feels about it. Again, God can permit things and care about them. This sort of thing is harder to understand, admittedly. I don’t think I will fully understand in this life. My personal thoughts though is that when “The Fall” happened, the whole of creation fell. The consequence of that is some of the things you mention. I don’t believe it’s how God wanted things to be.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rama Set on July 15, 2022, 11:55:20 PM
The point is, the girl never made a choice.  She didn't choose to be raped.  She executed no free will yet the kind, loving, caring, benevolent God doesn't give a shit about what happens to her.
Obviously not true.
God can allow us to have free will and still care deeply about the bad things which happen as a consequence. How could we truly have free will if we don’t have the ability to harm one another? I think pretty much everyone would agree that free will is important for us to have, but here you want to limit it. You have picked a deliberately extreme example but I’m sure there are plenty of other examples of things which the world would be better off without. If God didn’t allow us to do those things then we wouldn’t have free will. You can’t have free will and have limits on that. It’s a contradiction.

Quote
You can say the same thing about children born with birth defects.  God doesn't give a shit if you are born and have to live your life as a vegetable.  It's all good.
Wrong again about how God feels about it. Again, God can permit things and care about them. This sort of thing is harder to understand, admittedly. I don’t think I will fully understand in this life. My personal thoughts though is that when “The Fall” happened, the whole of creation fell. The consequence of that is some of the things you mention. I don’t believe it’s how God wanted things to be.

It’s nonsense. Assuming omnipotence, there is no need for lessons, wisdom, pain or strife. All of the wisdom that we gain from those things, he could imbue us with. Allowing children to be raped is beyond reprehensible and could only be for his own curiosity or enjoyment. If any human allowed a girl to be raped, had the capability to prevent it, didn’t but felt bad you, would tell them to get fucked and do something next time. You only let your skyfather off the hook because it’s a cultural artifact you were raised with.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rushy on July 16, 2022, 01:17:55 AM
It’s nonsense. Assuming omnipotence, there is no need for lessons, wisdom, pain or strife. All of the wisdom that we gain from those things, he could imbue us with. Allowing children to be raped is beyond reprehensible and could only be for his own curiosity or enjoyment. If any human allowed a girl to be raped, had the capability to prevent it, didn’t but felt bad you, would tell them to get fucked and do something next time. You only let your skyfather off the hook because it’s a cultural artifact you were raised with.

This is just an argument that boils down to Douglas Adams saying “The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”

You can say it's not fair that God allows evil to exist, but you must admit you're arguing that the universe itself simply shouldn't exist. Our existence requires the existence of choice and choice implies that choosing the wrong thing is possible. Ask yourself what you would do if you had the power to stop all rape. Would you stop at just stopping rape? Would you stop everything you deem to be evil? Would you accept arguments from other humans about what is or isn't evil? At what point are the humans you have such absolute control over no longer human and instead just little biological robots you've programmed to perform a nice orderly set of 'good' actions?

Further, would you go as far as to stop people before they perform the action in the first place? If we accept that the universe isn't deterministic (this could, scientifically, be the case), then you can't know what someone is going to do before they do it. Would you stop an action because it just may result in something you deemed to be evil?

The logical conclusion of "God should not allow evil" doesn't hold water, especially since it always includes your personal opinion of what evil is. You can be upset about this or claim that God must be an evil being because your personal opinion of what constitutes evil is different, but merely saying "for God to exist, evil must not exist" is quite simply not correct and it has never held in any philosophical or theological debate, because again, the conclusion results in our universe not existing.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 01:21:19 AM
Rushy is right.  Its the problem with Free Will.

Remember, the entire Old Testimate is full of God's medling to try and fix 'Evil'.  He turned a city to salt and flooded the entire world (except one super good family), killing everyone, including innocent babies and fetuses.  The world was still evil after a short time.
He then sent down Jesus (himself).  THAT didn't work either.

Evil must exist because we have free will.  And God the cop didn't work.  Literal Genocide didn't stop it.  Which means that Free Will inevitably leads to evil existing.
And as Rusy said, God would need to personally intervene in every single act of pain.  But lets say God stops all rapists by making them die if they rape someone.  He then has to define Rape.  Is it rape if they're married?  If she wants to stop half way through?  WE say yes, but if God says yes, then that means he's probably gonna kill alot more people.  People who might not want God to kill them.

If God removes the concept of Rape from existence, how would he do it?  Well, we need to determine why people rape and remove that.  They rape because they're horny (which is what you need to be to want to make babies) or they want to overpower someone, which is part of a larger system of dominance, which helps keep us alive and masters of the world.  "The meek shall inherit the earth" doesn't work if said meek get eaten by wolves.


So yeah... its complicated shit.
I mean, we had enough food, water, shelter, and land for most of human history.  Hell, we STILL could feed everyone.  We just don't want to.

Agreed.  If we are to believe any of this crap then this God creature knowingly created evil and designed us to murder, rape, enslave and exploit each other.  How nice, how full of grace.  What a uniquely perverse thing this God must be.  Not only that but we're then supposed to worship such a despicable thing.

Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rushy on July 16, 2022, 01:27:20 AM
designed us to murder, rape, enslave and exploit each other

Those are choices that humans inflict on other humans and themselves.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 01:30:54 AM
designed us to murder, rape, enslave and exploit each other

Those are choices that humans inflict on other humans and themselves.
Fine.  Then, from your God's perspective, what is the point of all this?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rushy on July 16, 2022, 01:42:43 AM
Fine.  Then, from your God's perspective, what is the point of all this?

Well the general timeline of the Abrahamic God seems to have an underlying current of "first I made a bunch of angels, forced them to worship me 24/7, got bored, then I made beings that can choose to worship me or tell me to fuck off"

Seems to me that God just wanted a bunch of beings capable of judging God's actions without having enough power to represent a threat. We can also go with the classic "you cannot comprehend God's plan because it's beyond your human ability to do so" but that's quite the cop-out.

In any case, whether or not God exists, it seems the vast majority of humanity's woes are imposed by humanity. Seems wrong to me to blame God for merely allowing humanity to choose between good and evil, then getting upset when people keep choosing evil. Ultimately, you can only control what you yourself do and that's generally why Christianity focuses on forgiveness of the self (but also forgiving the misdeeds of others). Understanding that sin is inevitable and that sin is fundamental to the universe is part of all Abrahamic faiths.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2022, 01:46:17 AM
It’s nonsense. Assuming omnipotence, there is no need for lessons, wisdom, pain or strife. All of the wisdom that we gain from those things, he could imbue us with. Allowing children to be raped is beyond reprehensible and could only be for his own curiosity or enjoyment. If any human allowed a girl to be raped, had the capability to prevent it, didn’t but felt bad you, would tell them to get fucked and do something next time. You only let your skyfather off the hook because it’s a cultural artifact you were raised with.

This is just an argument that boils down to Douglas Adams saying “The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.”

You can say it's not fair that God allows evil to exist, but you must admit you're arguing that the universe itself simply shouldn't exist.

No I’m not. I’m arguing that if there is a god he has knowingly and willfully used his omnipotence and omniscience to create suffering when it’s not necessary. Whether or not that is evil is obviously subjective but what isn’t is that God must allow suffering unnecessarily or he isn’t omnipotent.

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Our existence requires the existence of choice and choice implies that choosing the wrong thing is possible. Ask yourself what you would do if you had the power to stop all rape. Would you stop at just stopping rape? Would you stop everything you deem to be evil? Would you accept arguments from other humans about what is or isn't evil? At what point are the humans you have such absolute control over no longer human and instead just little biological robots you've programmed to perform a nice orderly set of 'good' actions?

If I were omniscient and I had to power to end suffering with no negative consequences I obviously would.

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Further, would you go as far as to stop people before they perform the action in the first place? If we accept that the universe isn't deterministic (this could, scientifically, be the case), then you can't know what someone is going to do before they do it. Would you stop an action because it just may result in something you deemed to be evil?

The logical conclusion of "God should not allow evil" doesn't hold water, especially since it always includes your personal opinion of what evil is. You can be upset about this or claim that God must be an evil being because your personal opinion of what constitutes evil is different, but merely saying "for God to exist, evil must not exist" is quite simply not correct and it has never held in any philosophical or theological debate, because again, the conclusion results in our universe not existing.

It doesn’t depend on my opinion, it depends on God’s, and the Bible tells us rape is surely evil.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2022, 01:51:42 AM
God throws his hands up and says, "Meh.  Free will." then turns around a walks out while closing the door behind Him.

Actually that is not what the Bible says happens to people who are evil.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: markjo on July 16, 2022, 01:56:00 AM
designed us to murder, rape, enslave and exploit each other

Those are choices that humans inflict on other humans and themselves.
Fine.  Then, from your God's perspective, what is the point of all this?
The way I see it, God gave us free will as a test of character.  If you choose to do good, then you pass.  If you choose to do evil, then you fail.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Rushy on July 16, 2022, 01:58:34 AM
No I’m not. I’m arguing that if there is a god he has knowingly and willfully used his omnipotence and omniscience to create suffering when it’s not necessary. Whether or not that is evil is obviously subjective but what isn’t is that God must allow differing unnecessarily or he isn’t omnipotent.

That's just the thing, though, you're under the impression that God 'created suffering' when all that happened was the creation of the choice itself. If I gave you two buttons, one that blows the Earth up and one that gives 1000 orphans loving parents, then you decide to push the Blow-Up-The-Earth button: am I the bad guy for giving you the buttons in the first place? I don't think so (you may think so, but this is just our separation of opinions at this point). In my opinion, the evil is performed by the one that chooses to do the action, not the one that provided the choice.

If I were omniscient and I had to power to end suffering with no negative consequences I obviously would.

You're not merely ending suffering, though, you're ending the ability for people to choose to do good. The actions of humans no longer matter because you control them. Yes, the world is now more 'good', at the cost of its humanity. The universe is now nothing more than your wind-up toy and absolutely not the living universe we currently experience.

It doesn’t depend on my opinion, it depends on God’s, and the Bible tells us rape is surely evil.

Is that really your conclusion from what I wrote?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 02:02:51 AM
Well the general timeline of the Abrahamic God seems to have an underlying current of "first I made a bunch of angels, forced them to worship me 24/7, got bored, then I made beings that can choose to worship me or tell me to fuck off"

Seems to me that God just wanted a bunch of beings capable of judging God's actions without having enough power to represent a threat. We can also go with the classic "you cannot comprehend God's plan because it's beyond your human ability to do so" but that's quite the cop-out.

In any case, whether or not God exists, it seems the vast majority of humanity's woes are imposed by humanity. Seems wrong to me to blame God for merely allowing humanity to choose between good and evil, then getting upset when people keep choosing evil. Ultimately, you can only control what you yourself do and that's generally why Christianity focuses on forgiveness of the self (but also forgiving the misdeeds of others). Understanding that sin is inevitable and that sin is fundamental to the universe is part of all Abrahamic faiths.
You paint a pretty dire picture of this God thing.  So, he was there for an infinite amount of time, then all of a sudden decided he wanted some attention and amusement so created us and made us evil.  Cool.  However, that does not explain all his hard work in the old testament to eradicate evil.  His final attempt was to mortalize his son (which is really him) then have us evil dudes murder him and that somehow was supposed to  do .. exactly what?

See, the problem I have with all this is that God is supposed to be all knowing.  He knew in advance exactly what would happen - in all cases .. in everything.  It's like having all the cheat codes for a game plus knowing the outcome before playing it for the fist time.  There is no point.  The whole concept is utterly and literally unbelievable. 
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 02:05:00 AM
The way I see it, God gave us free will as a test of character.  If you choose to do good, then you pass.  If you choose to do evil, then you fail.
So, he was around for infinity with an empty heaven then suddenly decided to create a universe to filter random prospects to fill it so they could fawn over him?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: markjo on July 16, 2022, 03:10:22 AM
The way I see it, God gave us free will as a test of character.  If you choose to do good, then you pass.  If you choose to do evil, then you fail.
So, he was around for infinity with an empty heaven then suddenly decided to create a universe to filter random prospects to fill it so they could fawn over him?
Personally, I think that God is beyond such human concepts as time.  Besides, He already had the angles in heaven to fawn over Him, but angles have no free will.  Then again, there was supposedly that big to do when Lucifer led a rebellion among the angles and was cast out from heaven, but since there aren't really any reliable witnesses to what was going on in heaven before creation, who can really say?  But anyway, perhaps God created humans as a sociological experiment to see what would happen to finite beings with free will.  Then again (again), it's a big universe that's been around for a while, so who is to say that humans are His only experiment with free will?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 03:55:59 AM
But anyway, perhaps God created humans as a sociological experiment to see what would happen to finite beings with free will.  Then again (again), it's a big universe that's been around for a while, so who is to say that humans are His only experiment with free will?
Well, this is quite honestly the best speculation I have ever heard!

Now, we just need some hard evidence of God's existence.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2022, 05:16:02 AM
Well, this is quite honestly the best speculation I have ever heard!

Now, we just need some hard evidence of God's existence.

You can prove to yourself whether the Bible is true any time you want. You merely need to go on a shooting spree in an elementary school and then take yourself out in an epic mass murder suicide.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: stack on July 16, 2022, 06:51:17 AM
Well, this is quite honestly the best speculation I have ever heard!

Now, we just need some hard evidence of God's existence.

You can prove to yourself whether the Bible is true any time you want. You merely need to go on a shooting spree in an elementary school and then take yourself out in an epic mass murder suicide.

Quite the dark and creepy example. You should see someone about such thoughts.

In any case, how does a dead person prove something to themselves when they are dead?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2022, 07:37:46 AM
Well, this is quite honestly the best speculation I have ever heard!

Now, we just need some hard evidence of God's existence.

You can prove to yourself whether the Bible is true any time you want. You merely need to go on a shooting spree in an elementary school and then take yourself out in an epic mass murder suicide.

Quite the dark and creepy example. You should see someone about such thoughts.

In any case, how does a dead person prove something to themselves when they are dead?

If the Bible is true, you will be judged by heaven and sent to damnation.

If the Bible is false, you won't experience this.

Sinful suicide on its own without significant moral history in your life might send you to the rumored limbo or null realm where your soul is stale or recycled and give you indeterminable results, and living a good and honest life to get into heaven will take too long, so in order to prove it any time you want with clear results you will have to commit an unspeakable evil. I personally think it would be abhorrent of you to do such a thing, but this is irrelevant to the question of whether it is possible for you to prove the premise of the Bible.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 16, 2022, 08:31:31 AM
The only way to prove or disprove it is to do something which means you can’t tell anyone else the results of your experiment.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: stack on July 16, 2022, 08:54:20 AM
Well, this is quite honestly the best speculation I have ever heard!

Now, we just need some hard evidence of God's existence.

You can prove to yourself whether the Bible is true any time you want. You merely need to go on a shooting spree in an elementary school and then take yourself out in an epic mass murder suicide.

Quite the dark and creepy example. You should see someone about such thoughts.

In any case, how does a dead person prove something to themselves when they are dead?

If the Bible is true, you will be judged by heaven and sent to damnation.

If the Bible is false, you won't experience this.

Sinful suicide on its own without significant moral history in your life might send you to the rumored limbo or null realm where your soul is stale or recycled and give you indeterminable results, and living a good and honest life to get into heaven will take too long, so in order to prove it any time you want with clear results you will have to commit an unspeakable evil. I personally think it would be abhorrent of you to do such a thing, but this is irrelevant to the question of whether it is possible for you to prove the premise of the Bible.

I wasn't aware that the bible peddled in rumor & innuendo. Good to know to not take the bible as fact. More like hearsay, it seems.

A dead man can't prove he went to heaven, hell, or this "rumored" purgatory. Even to himself. He's dead. He's pushing up the daisies! Bereft of life. He's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 16, 2022, 09:01:29 AM
I wasn't aware that the bible peddled in rumor & innuendo.
It doesn’t. That’s humans you’re thinking of
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 01:08:28 PM
You can prove to yourself whether the Bible is true any time you want. You merely need to go on a shooting spree in an elementary school and then take yourself out in an epic mass murder suicide.
All that would prove is that I am insane.

We all know the bible was supposedly written several thousand years ago by a bunch of goat fu... ahh, herders in long lost dialects of ancient languages of various kinds, cherry picked, translated, then re-translated, then subject to multiple interpretations.  So we have proof it is complete BS without even having to open the covers.  Then when we do open it up we find, to no surprise, it is incoherent, inconsistent and self contradicting.

No, I'm looking for some hard evidence for your, or any other, God.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 16, 2022, 01:15:43 PM
It doesn’t. That’s humans you’re thinking of
You've lost me. Who, in your opinion, wrote the Bible?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: xasop on July 16, 2022, 01:30:36 PM
We all know the bible was supposedly written several thousand years ago by a bunch of goat fu... ahh, herders in long lost dialects of ancient languages of various kinds, cherry picked, translated, then re-translated, then subject to multiple interpretations.  So we have proof it is complete BS without even having to open the covers.  Then when we do open it up we find, to no surprise, it is incoherent, inconsistent and self contradicting.
That's not entirely fair. The Bible is a fine historical document and contains many fine works of literature, as well as being a fascinating case study in how ancient texts changed over time before the printing press was able to standardise copies. The problem is not the Bible; it is the reverence that humans give to the Bible, usually while ignoring the bits of it that they don't wish to revere. You would have exactly the same problem if somebody decided that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was a holy book and should be studied deeply and followed to the letter.

Incidentally, being "re-translated" is not exactly accurate either. Almost all modern translations of the Bible are from the original languages, with very few exceptions for books and passages for which the original language has no surviving manuscripts, or for which the text in the original language is unclear or an obvious scribal error. But this doesn't actually matter very much because of the aforementioned phenomenon of ancient texts changing over time on the whims of scribes ­— there is no reason to believe that the 11th-century Masoretic Text in Hebrew is a better representation of the original than the 4th-century Septuagint manuscripts in Greek.

Whether to favour the original language or the older manuscripts is an ongoing topic of debate in Biblical scholarship, with no clear consensus. The good news is that they agree most of the time, so this only matters for very small portions of the Bible.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 02:58:14 PM
You would have exactly the same problem if somebody decided that Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was a holy book and should be studied deeply and followed to the letter.
Better that than the Bible.  At least we know it has not changed since it's creation, we know who wrote it and we are familiar with the language it was written in.  It is also more consistent and more coherent.

I will give to the Bible that it is literature.  If you don't try to take it too seriously or in whole, it's not a bad read.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 16, 2022, 04:32:23 PM
It doesn’t. That’s humans you’re thinking of
You've lost me. Who, in your opinion, wrote the Bible?

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

So yes, it was obviously written by humans but the Christian belief is that it was inspired by God.
And the above exchange is talking about purgatory which I don’t believe is a Biblical concept. Tom talks about the “rumoured limbo”. That elicited the response which I then replied to. Any rumour about that is of human origin.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: xasop on July 16, 2022, 04:38:57 PM
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

So yes, it was obviously written by humans but the Christian belief is that it was inspired by God.
Which scripture are we talking about here? Different Christian denominations have different accepted canons. Are the deuterocanonical books only partially inspired by God? Inspired by a different God? Is one side wrong and going to hell for either claiming God inspired something he didn't, or claiming he didn't inspire something he did, and how do we know which is which?

This doesn't even start getting into the minefield of Isaiah 7:14 and its quotation in Matthew 1:23, which requires God to have inspired writing in Hebrew that means something other than what he intended to say, knowing that it would be mistranslated into Greek to render the correct meaning centuries later.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 05:06:51 PM
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

So yes, it was obviously written by humans but the Christian belief is that it was inspired by God.
Which scripture are we talking about here? Different Christian denominations have different accepted canons. Are the deuterocanonical books only partially inspired by God? Inspired by a different God? Is one side wrong and going to hell for either claiming God inspired something he didn't, or claiming he didn't inspire something he did, and how do we know which is which?

This doesn't even start getting into the minefield of Isaiah 7:14 and its quotation in Matthew 1:23, which requires God to have inspired writing in Hebrew that means something other than what he intended to say, knowing that it would be mistranslated into Greek to render the correct meaning centuries later.
And let's not forget that most of Isaiah 7 was edited a century or so after it was originally written.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 16, 2022, 05:58:32 PM
It doesn’t. That’s humans you’re thinking of
You've lost me. Who, in your opinion, wrote the Bible?

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

So yes, it was obviously written by humans but the Christian belief is that it was inspired by God.

The Mormon belief is that Joseph Smith was inspired by God.  Why aren't you Mormon?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 16, 2022, 06:00:03 PM
God throws his hands up and says, "Meh.  Free will." then turns around a walks out while closing the door behind Him.

Actually that is not what the Bible says happens to people who are evil.

WHOOSH!!!!!  And there goes the point right over your head.  It has nothing to do with punishing evil.  It has to do with God's pleasure in punishing innocence.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 16, 2022, 06:55:42 PM
So yes, it was obviously written by humans but the Christian belief is that it was inspired by God.
How would you, personally, describe this "inspiration"? Is it a Qu'ranic kinda deal where the supposed deity dictated it word for word? Or is it something more relaxed? To what extent do you think humans may have corrupted the intended message?

To be clear, I'm really asking for your personal take here (and the personal takes of anyone else who feels like sharing). I already know the "right" answer for at least some denominations of Christianity, but I also don't really care what they think.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: xasop on July 16, 2022, 07:18:28 PM
To be clear, I'm really asking for your personal take here (and the personal takes of anyone else who feels like sharing)
Since you asked, my view is that if there is a God, then the Bible is the words of human beings trying their best to describe their interactions with a divine being, with all the flaws that humans have when they write about things. This explains all of the inconsistencies and difficulties in interpretation, while being perfectly consistent with a supernatural deity who created all of us and everything around us.

I also believe that if there is a God, he would want us to use the brains he gave us and analyse the Bible critically instead of taking it at face value (either what it contains or what others tell us it contains). He should be pleased when we find faults in it, because that means our understanding of the moral issues it addresses has developed beyond that of our ancestors. A God who gave us free will, but expects us not to apply it in our interpretation of scripture, is no God I would want to worship.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Iceman on July 16, 2022, 07:36:26 PM
Since you asked, my view is that if there is a God, then the Bible is the words of human beings trying their best to describe their interactions with a divine being, with all the flaws that humans have when they write about things. This explains all of the inconsistencies and difficulties in interpretation, while being perfectly consistent with a supernatural deity who created all of us and everything around us.

I feel like I agree with this, but I also can’t help but feel like there are elements in the Bible that are there only to benefit people in positions of power. There are too many things left out in not the OT and NT for it to be just the attempts of a few people to describe and catalog their brushes with the divine.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: xasop on July 16, 2022, 07:42:52 PM
I feel like I agree with this, but I also can’t help but feel like there are elements in the Bible that are there only to benefit people in positions of power. There are too many things left out in not the OT and NT for it to be just the attempts of a few people to describe and catalog their brushes with the divine.
Well, yes, the Bible is a collection of many different types of literature, by many different authors with many different motivations over many centuries. My previous post was specifically replying to the way in which God inspired the Bible, not necessarily an attempt to describe all of its contents.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2022, 10:01:27 PM
Quote from: BillO
No, I'm looking for some hard evidence for your, or any other, God.

The method of obtaining evidence was already explained to you. The Bible says that you will go to hell if you do bad things. So go do some really bad things and then end your life in suicide and you can find out first hand whether it is true.

And the above exchange is talking about purgatory which I don’t believe is a Biblical concept. Tom talks about the “rumoured limbo”. That elicited the response which I then replied to. Any rumour about that is of human origin.

Incorrect. The people who believed in limbo or purgatory got that idea from the books of the Bible. They didn't make it up outside of the biblical texts. See Maccabees here -

https://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/where-is-purgatory-in-the-bible/


Apparently the dead may go to some state where they are not freed from sin and there is a secondary process.


Both Macabees 1 and 2 are listed as deuterocanonical books -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books


Elsewhere in the Bible there is clearly reference of going to another realm of existence that is neither heaven or hell -

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 16, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
The method of obtaining evidence was already explained to you. The Bible says that you will go to hell if you do bad things. So go do some really bad things and then end your life in suicide and you can find out first hand whether it is true.
Okay, I see.  So you have no evidence of your God. Nice.  So what kind of person enslaves themselves to a thing that cannot be shown to exit?  Is that  a dupe?  Yeah, that is pretty much the definition of a dupe.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 17, 2022, 12:20:45 AM
The method of obtaining evidence was already explained to you. The Bible says that you will go to hell if you do bad things. So go do some really bad things and then end your life in suicide and you can find out first hand whether it is true.
Okay, I see.  So you have no evidence of your God. Nice.  So what kind of person enslaves themselves to a thing that cannot be shown to exit?  Is that  a dupe?  Yeah, that is pretty much the definition of a dupe.

It's not "my" God, and nor have I "enslaved" myself to anything. You asked for evidence for the Bible that you could see for yourself and I have shown you that in a few actions you could get evidence. To get evidence for something you need to be willing to perform the experiment. It is not an experiment that other people can perform for you. The Bible makes a direct prediction on what will happen, and the only way to see if it will happen is to do it.  If you are unwilling to perform the experiment the fault lies with you for opting out on unscientific excuses like personal morality and fear.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 17, 2022, 01:25:43 AM
It's not "my" God, and nor have I "enslaved" myself to anything.
So are you an atheist?

You asked for evidence for the Bible ...

No.  I asked for evidence of God.  Your suggestion is non compos mentis.  Like someone asks for evidence of electricity and you tell them to go grab those two wires and if you die there is electricity.   If you want to be an asshole, that's fine.  However, my question stands.  Present some evidence for the existence of God.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 17, 2022, 02:56:31 AM
So are you an atheist?

Athiests say that they know the truth of the matter and that there is no God and that religion is false.

In my case I have stated that there are experiments which one can perform to determine the spiritual nature of the Bible. This is clearly not athiesm.

Quote from: BillO
No.  I asked for evidence of God.

God doesn't live anywhere on Earth. The Bible says God and other supernatural beings are generally in other realms in the afterlife, so it only makes sense to go there. The Bible says that you can get there and experience these supernatural beings first hand with only a few actions necessary on your part. People have committed suicide for worse reasons than an effort to prove the Bible.

If you lack the determination to do the experiment yourself, you can alternatively gather lesser forms of evidence by reading books like "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" which relays a Neurosurgeon's account of his near death experience and finds that it was similar to other accounts over hundreds of years; of out of body experience, going towards a light, entering an earthy realm which smells and tastes of dirt, and meeting their guardian angel which tends to be a deceased family member.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 17, 2022, 03:19:24 AM
Thanks Tom, you have affirmed my suspicions.  It's all a matter of blind faith.  And this is fairly damming evidence that you recently lied.  You say the only way to determine if there is God or not it to commit an offence according to da book then kill yourself to see if you end up in hell or not.  I'm guessing you won't do that, so yes you have, through blind faith, enslaved yourself to an entity you are not willing to prove to yourself exists.  Dupe.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 17, 2022, 05:33:24 AM
Quote from: BillO
Thanks Tom, you have affirmed my suspicions.  It's all a matter of blind faith.

Actually I have stated neither that religion is true or false, or that you should believe or disbelieve it. I have stated that there is an experiment to determine the truth of the matter.

Quote from: BillO
And this is fairly damming evidence that you recently lied.  You say the only way to determine if there is God or not it to commit an offence according to da book then kill yourself to see if you end up in hell or not.

I did not say "only". I postulated that you should commit some sins before you kill yourself to avoid the possibility of being trapped in limbo or purgatory and experiencing nothing or having an indeterminable experience. Suicide is generally frowned on in the Bible. If you have led a morally ambiguous life it is possible that they won't send you to either heaven or hell and choose to put you on ice or recycle your essence. In the Maccabees passage it suggested that some of the dead were stuck somewhere between heaven and hell.

Quote from: BillO
I'm guessing you won't do that.

Correct. I won't do that. I'm not demanding evidence or feel that it is critical to know this. But to say that there is no possible evidence on this subject is false.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: stack on July 17, 2022, 06:34:59 AM
Actually I have stated neither that religion is true or false, or that you should believe or disbelieve it. I have stated that there is an experiment to determine the truth of the matter.

It's not really clear how your experiment would work. Because if you die and that's just it, lights out, there's nothing left of you to know whether there was another place to go or not. Someone living would have to observe the fact that you're just lights out.

In the Maccabees passage it suggested that some of the dead were stuck somewhere between heaven and hell.

Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing. KJV got rid of it. Are you going by Catholic rules only?
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 17, 2022, 11:58:37 AM
Actually I have stated neither that religion is true or false, or that you should believe or disbelieve it. I have stated that there is an experiment to determine the truth of the matter.

It's not really clear how your experiment would work. Because if you die and that's just it, lights out, there's nothing left of you to know whether there was another place to go or not. Someone living would have to observe the fact that you're just lights out.

The Bible claims that you will be in an afterlife and that it isnt it. It is possible to prove to yourself the existence of an afterlife, not to other people.

In the Maccabees passage it suggested that some of the dead were stuck somewhere between heaven and hell.

Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing. KJV got rid of it. Are you going by Catholic rules only?

I couldn't say which rules are correct. This is why I called it a "possibility".
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2022, 12:57:03 PM
Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing.
No, Orthodox Bibles have it too, and Martin Luther advised reading it, while emphasising that he did not consider it scripture. The practice of omitting it entirely is a very recent and very dubious phenomenon within Protestantism.

KJV got rid of it.
Incorrect. What you mean to say is that most modern printings of the KJV omit it. The original KJV translation had it, and it is still possible to find the KJV with it if you really want your Bible to sound like Shakespeare for some reason.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 17, 2022, 01:52:25 PM
But to say that there is no possible evidence on this subject is false.
Where did I ever say there was no evidence?  I've just not seen any.  I did say I am looking for some.

Your experiment relies on a God and heaven and hell and all that trash to exist to provide evidence that a God and heaven and hell exist so suggesting it to someone that is skeptical of all that is pretty dumb.  That would be like me suggesting to you to do an experiment that first assumes the earth is round in order to show you the earth is round.  Your command of logic is well known around here, so I guess I should not expect much.   Do you have any more workable suggestion for evidence?

Religion requires the follower to be dominated by and come under the control of a God.  That's subjugation.  It also requires you to do that God's bidding and follow the path it has set out for you including what works it wants you to perform.  Subjugation and prescribed behavior and servitude is enslavement.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: garygreen on July 17, 2022, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: timmy bombshop
haha just kill yourself because that's an experiment or something

lol i love that you think this line of reasoning is somehow clever.

let me give you a hint — death is already inevitable for everyone.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on July 17, 2022, 03:07:22 PM
The method of obtaining evidence was already explained to you. The Bible says that you will go to hell if you do bad things. So go do some really bad things and then end your life in suicide and you can find out first hand whether it is true.
Okay, I see.  So you have no evidence of your God. Nice.  So what kind of person enslaves themselves to a thing that cannot be shown to exit?  Is that  a dupe?  Yeah, that is pretty much the definition of a dupe.

It's not "my" God, and nor have I "enslaved" myself to anything. You asked for evidence for the Bible that you could see for yourself and I have shown you that in a few actions you could get evidence. To get evidence for something you need to be willing to perform the experiment. It is not an experiment that other people can perform for you. The Bible makes a direct prediction on what will happen, and the only way to see if it will happen is to do it.  If you are unwilling to perform the experiment the fault lies with you for opting out on unscientific excuses like personal morality and fear.
Willing or not, we're all going to perform the experiment; the only optional criteria are the parameters we set. 

Of course, presenting your conclusions for peer-review is going to be the killer. 
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 17, 2022, 04:32:21 PM
Quote from: BillO
That's not how that works.

If it was meritless you wouldn't have suggested that I do it.

I didn't, I said I guess you wont do it.

US:
Me - Can I get some hard evidence for God
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
Me - No.  I was asking for evidence for a God.
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
Me - That's stupid and not evidence for God.
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
...
Tom - go commit murder and kill yourself - that will prove the bible.
Me - I guess you wont do it.
Tom - Ha!  I win!!!
....


God is definitely a part of religion and the Bible, hate to break it to you. If you are suffering in damnation it would be pretty good evidence that something designed that, and that supernatural entities exist.
The bible exists.  I can find evidence of it.  I can't find evidence for God.  The bible could easily have been created in the complete absence of God as many are convinced.  Your suggested criminal activity is not evidence of God.  It's sad that you can't see that.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: stack on July 17, 2022, 07:30:42 PM
Maccabees seems to be only a Catholic thing.
No, Orthodox Bibles have it too, and Martin Luther advised reading it, while emphasising that he did not consider it scripture. The practice of omitting it entirely is a very recent and very dubious phenomenon within Protestantism.

Fair point. I meant Jews and most Protestant versions. But yeah, looks like the Protestants ditched the Apocrypha in the mid 1800's. Which definitely counts as more recent history.

KJV got rid of it.
Incorrect. What you mean to say is that most modern printings of the KJV omit it. The original KJV translation had it, and it is still possible to find the KJV with it if you really want your Bible to sound like Shakespeare for some reason.

Yes, that's what I meant.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 17, 2022, 08:44:01 PM
The bible exists.  I can find evidence of it.  I can't find evidence for God.
Seek and you shall find...
And note, the sense of that verse is of an ongoing process, not a one off thing.

What evidence would you expect to find? You can go so far with an academic exercise in seeking God, but that will only get you so far.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 17, 2022, 10:23:48 PM
What evidence would you expect to find?
Something that cannot be explained by any other means might work.  It's not like he has to make a personal appearance, although he has made them.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2022, 10:44:17 PM
Something that cannot be explained by any other means might work.
Everything can be explained by other means. When all else fails, there's the good old brain-in-a-jar explanation. Nothing can ever be absolutely proven.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: BillO on July 18, 2022, 01:25:04 AM
I could agree that nothing can be absolutely proven except in logic and sometimes in mathematics.

However, I'm not certain the brain in a vat argument applies here unless you are proposing that God does not exist such that there can be no causal connection to the thing only the existence of God can explain.

It would be interesting to see that one worked out.

But we may be wandering off topic.
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: markjo on July 18, 2022, 01:42:36 AM
Well, there's always Pascal's wager.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
Title: Re: What is the Gospel?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 18, 2022, 11:31:52 AM
What evidence would you expect to find?
Something that cannot be explained by any other means might work.  It's not like he has to make a personal appearance, although he has made them.
As xasop said, I don't believe that's possible.
I mean, remember where you are. The shape of the earth has been known and proven beyond any reasonable doubt for centuries. And yet, here we are...
There is necessarily a faith element here. I know people who have been miraculously healed or transformed - a sceptic will say "but those things can happen anyway". Which I guess is true. I just have faith. You might think that's a bit weak and woolly but it's all we've got.
I don't think one should throw one's brain away, but neither do I think approaching this an a purely academic exercise will get you very far.