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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Lord Dave on August 14, 2021, 04:32:42 PM

Title: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 14, 2021, 04:32:42 PM
From NPR News
Here's Why Biden Is Sticking With The U.S. Exit From Afghanistan https://www.npr.org/2021/08/14/1027552833/heres-why-biden-is-sticking-with-the-u-s-exit-from-afghanistan?sc=18&f=1027552833

Long story short: 20 years of military support and money didn't do shit.  Afghanistan's own military is worthless, being overrun in less than a month.  Likely the whole government will collapse before September.

So the only real solution to dealing with the Taliban and their oppressive practices is genocide.  Pure and simple genocide.  Because 20 years of education, rebuilding, protection, and whatever else we did was worthless.  The moment we let our guard down, they swooped in.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 14, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
I have to wonder at this point if maybe the people of Afghanistan actually prefer taliban rule. They don't seem to be particularly motivated to do much about it.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 14, 2021, 06:28:20 PM
I have to wonder at this point if maybe the people of Afghanistan actually prefer taliban rule. They don't seem to be particularly motivated to do much about it.

That’s a pretty difficult thing to judge. Perhaps people with guns are making it difficult no matter their motivation.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 14, 2021, 07:07:17 PM
I have to wonder at this point if maybe the people of Afghanistan actually prefer taliban rule. They don't seem to be particularly motivated to do much about it.

That’s a pretty difficult thing to judge. Perhaps people with guns are making it difficult no matter their motivation.

I think its a 50/50 mix.
Most of the women would prefer non-taliban rule.
most of the men, Taliban rule.

You can imagine why.

Reports say that young girls are being forcefully married off to taliban soliders.  So... yeah....
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 14, 2021, 07:41:11 PM
America learned a lesson that Britain learned 50 years earlier. You can be the biggest baddest nation on earth with all the best weapons and all the money, but you can't hold back the tide.

The British controlled most of Africa. Those African nations all demanded their independence in the 1960s. They were better off being ruled by the British just as Afghans are better off under NATO control. By the 1980s the Africans had fucked everything up and were now begging Britain for money and support as famine after famine took hold. The Afghans will do the same. They'll rule their country, run it into the ground over the next 20 years and then be worse off than when they started.

Let them do it. Taliban, ISIS, call them whatever you like. They will be Afghans ruling Afghans and they will be independent ... and poor as hell. Its not our job to tell them how to live. We already showed them. If they are too stupid to copy that, they deserve what is coming.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 14, 2021, 08:05:14 PM
I don't know if that's quite comparable.  Those African nations that demanded their independence probably didn't have a psychotic death cult waiting to take them over the instant Britain pulled out.

Also I believe the Afghan government wanted us to stay.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 14, 2021, 08:55:30 PM
I don't know if that's quite comparable.  Those African nations that demanded their independence probably didn't have a psychotic death cult waiting to take them over the instant Britain pulled out.
No. they had military generals who wanted to squeeze every last penny out of the nation for themselves and fuck everyone else. I see little difference between an African warlord running a country and an Afghani warlord running a country.

Also I believe the Afghan government wanted us to stay.
I'll bet most Africans wanted the British to stay. We gave them roads, rail, fresh water supplies, made their farms productive, brought trade, goods, the rule of law. But we couldn't keep fighting everyone to stay in control and we gave most of the empire back.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 14, 2021, 09:33:15 PM
Yeah... child marriages, killing infadels, removal of music on radio, damning women to servatude...

Its shit.  But the Taliban has the guns and the money so they roll into a privdance and demand they surrender, and said providence does. 

Also, having a whole country means they can basically conscript kids have them bomb the shit out of everyone who hurt them: America, France, Britian, Canada...
And just keep doing it over and over again until someone genocides their asses.  Or oil stops being used and they become too poor for guns.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 14, 2021, 09:55:51 PM
Or oil stops being used and they become too poor for guns.
Afghanistan won't be making its money from oil.

Poppies is where it is at in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: stack on August 15, 2021, 12:15:09 AM
I don't know if that's quite comparable.  Those African nations that demanded their independence probably didn't have a psychotic death cult waiting to take them over the instant Britain pulled out.
No. they had military generals who wanted to squeeze every last penny out of the nation for themselves and fuck everyone else. I see little difference between an African warlord running a country and an Afghani warlord running a country.

A more apt comparison would be the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan throughout the 80’s. After 10 years of carpet bombing the place, the Russians bailed leaving Afghanistan basically as they found it, one of the poorest nations on the planet.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 15, 2021, 04:41:03 AM
Some painful lessons to be learned from this.

1.  We continue to be terrible at nation building. Bush senior knew this.  To bad his son didn't talk to him more.

2.  Our government has been lying about this, a lot.  We've been wondering for the last 19 years, why the hell are we still there if we won?  And every president since then has dodged the question.  And now we know why.  Because the Taliban will overrun the country faster than we can get our people out of there which will look really bad for whoever is in charge.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Fortuna on August 15, 2021, 08:21:00 AM
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 15, 2021, 08:31:09 AM
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

They do when it makes terrorists who then comitt acts of violence in the US/NATO nations.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Fortuna on August 15, 2021, 08:46:58 AM
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

They do when it makes terrorists who then comitt acts of violence in the US/NATO nations.

That's just a secondary concern (and a great excuse to go in) to the big homies at the top. A bomb in a mall here and there isn't going to really threaten national security.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 15, 2021, 09:02:10 AM
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

They do when it makes terrorists who then comitt acts of violence in the US/NATO nations.

That's just a secondary concern (and a great excuse to go in) to the big homies at the top. A bomb in a mall here and there isn't going to really threaten national security.
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

And when public fear is high, they look to their elected leader to make them safe.  And if they don't, then they aren't going to be the leader anymore and we get Trump.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Fortuna on August 15, 2021, 09:19:50 AM
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

Americans, at least, have never really been afraid of terrorism. When 9/11 happened everyone was just pissed off. Never mind that the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, all the sand people look the same so we may as well go to Afghanistan because it's strategically significant. In hindsight it was obviously a bad idea to go over there, but I can see why they did it. We could have lit up Iran and Pakistan if we wanted, had control of a huge swath of airspace in the Middle East, and had the closest possible base to India.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 15, 2021, 10:19:14 AM
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

Americans, at least, have never really been afraid of terrorism. When 9/11 happened everyone was just pissed off. Never mind that the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, all the sand people look the same so we may as well go to Afghanistan because it's strategically significant. In hindsight it was obviously a bad idea to go over there, but I can see why they did it. We could have lit up Iran and Pakistan if we wanted, had control of a huge swath of airspace in the Middle East, and had the closest possible base to India.

Fear leads to anger.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 15, 2021, 10:21:59 AM
https://politicalprof.tumblr.com/post/659524088484724736/bilal-sarwary-on-twitter
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 15, 2021, 02:38:05 PM
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

Americans, at least, have never really been afraid of terrorism. When 9/11 happened everyone was just pissed off. Never mind that the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, all the sand people look the same so we may as well go to Afghanistan because it's strategically significant. In hindsight it was obviously a bad idea to go over there, but I can see why they did it. We could have lit up Iran and Pakistan if we wanted, had control of a huge swath of airspace in the Middle East, and had the closest possible base to India.

Fear leads to anger.

And anger leads to hate...
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 15, 2021, 03:43:56 PM
And the Taliban basically now owns the country.

The president is gone and they entered the capital.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2021, 12:57:29 AM
Seems like this is a good thing to me. The problem with 9/11 was that the US couldn't just bomb Afganistan infrastructure because the terrorists who did it weren't actually running the country. Now that they are, they can deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 16, 2021, 01:00:39 AM
You write a lot of stupid comments. This is one of them. What you propose has precisely zero chance of lessening the threat of attacks against the USA.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2021, 01:05:04 AM
You write a lot of stupid comments. This is one of them. What you propose has precisely zero chance of lessening the threat of attacks against the USA.

What was being done before to prevent people from coming to America to try to bomb buildings? Were the soldiers stationed there convincing the people there to love America?

No. The US was not getting people to love America by policing them. The longer the US meddles in their affairs the more hate is generated. The best way is to keep out of their affairs and stop trying to police them entirely.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 16, 2021, 01:11:40 AM
The best way is to keep out of their affairs and stop trying to police them entirely.

How do you propose keeping out of their affairs and…
 
Quote
deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2021, 01:18:34 AM
The best way is to keep out of their affairs and stop trying to police them entirely.

How do you propose keeping out of their affairs and…
 
Quote
deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.

What? 9/11 occurred because the US was meddling in their affairs. The US was the aggressor who attacked those people with their actions and presence and created terrorists. If you send soldiers into a country to police and control people or resources you can expect some terrorists. They didn't just attack the US out of the blue. If you don't want terrorists, stop messing with foreign countries.

Why didn't Bin Laden attack a skyscraper in India? Because the Indians didn't meddle with them. The solution is to be more like the Indians and stop warmongering over resources and policing foreign nations.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 16, 2021, 06:42:36 AM
The best way is to keep out of their affairs and stop trying to police them entirely.

How do you propose keeping out of their affairs and…
 
Quote
deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.

What? 9/11 occurred because the US was meddling in their affairs. The US was the aggressor who attacked those people with their actions and presence and created terrorists. If you send soldiers into a country to police and control people or resources you can expect some terrorists. They didn't just attack the US out of the blue. If you don't want terrorists, stop messing with foreign countries.

Why didn't Bin Laden attack a skyscraper in India? Because the Indians didn't meddle with them. The solution is to be more like the Indians and stop warmongering over resources and policing foreign nations.

India's not really well known for their skyscrapers.

Out of curiosity which particular instance of meddling were you referring to?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2021, 07:18:02 AM
There are some collected quotes from Al Qaeda on their motivations for attacking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks

- Support of Israel by United States
- American Immorality
- Sanctions imposed against Iraq
- Presence of US military in Saudi Arabia
- Conflict in Somalia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Lebanon and the Philippines

Most of that is related to the US meddling in the affairs of the Middle East. The US meddled and some people got upset about it and attacked.

Bin Laden declared war on the USA years before the 2001 attack.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/08/twenty-years-war/496736/ - "[O]n August 23, 1996, Osama bin Laden declared war on the United States."

So a middle eastern group with a long time grudge attacks after the US continues to meddle in middle eastern affairs. How surprising.  ::)
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 16, 2021, 07:37:34 AM
The USA have had 20 years to win this war. An entire generation that they could have 'educated' differently. You can't win a war by just fighting. You have to leave an indelible cultural mark behind you. The USA have left nothing. So they'll go right back to what they were doing beforehand.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Iceman on August 16, 2021, 01:11:15 PM
Despite this being the completely foreseeable outcome (long before trump announced his plan to withdraw, so I dont even drop the blame solely on his lap), this has been a wildly embarrassing display of a complete lack of preparedness by the countries who were in Afghanistan to help free the Afghani people. Seeing the mobs trying to get on evacuation flights, reading about embassy guards left to fend for themselves after the facilities were evacuated, interpreters being completely abandoned... just a sad display all around.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: scomato on August 16, 2021, 02:36:33 PM
Seems like this is a good thing to me. The problem with 9/11 was that the US couldn't just bomb Afganistan infrastructure because the terrorists who did it weren't actually running the country. Now that they are, they can deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.

This is the worst take I have ever heard and it could only have come from a flat earther. I suppose anti-intellectualism thinks alike.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Iceman on August 16, 2021, 03:16:58 PM
Seems like this is a good thing to me. The problem with 9/11 was that the US couldn't just bomb Afganistan infrastructure because the terrorists who did it weren't actually running the country. Now that they are, they can deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.

This is the worst take I have ever heard and it could only have come from a flat earther. I suppose anti-intellectualism thinks alike.

This just sets up a refrain  of "Trump was right to leave" followed by "Biden's incompetence botched our exit and left the country in shambles" which sets up a winless position where if he brings troops back in, he is a meddling warmonger, and if he doesnt, hes an impotent, weak old man who doesnt defend democracy.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 16, 2021, 04:12:27 PM
Seems like this is a good thing to me. The problem with 9/11 was that the US couldn't just bomb Afganistan infrastructure because the terrorists who did it weren't actually running the country. Now that they are, they can deal with the terrorists on a national war-like level.

This is the worst take I have ever heard and it could only have come from a flat earther. I suppose anti-intellectualism thinks alike.

This just sets up a refrain  of "Trump was right to leave" followed by "Biden's incompetence botched our exit and left the country in shambles" which sets up a winless position where if he brings troops back in, he is a meddling warmonger, and if he doesnt, hes an impotent, weak old man who doesnt defend democracy.

The GOP is already setting the stage:

https://theweek.com/afghanistan-war/1003748/gop-takes-down-2020-page-touting-trumps-historic-peace-agreement-with-the
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Fortuna on August 17, 2021, 07:14:46 AM
China's turn now. Let's see how they fare.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/17/taliban-in-afghanistan-china-may-exploit-rare-earth-metals-analyst-says.html
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 11:05:40 AM
I am very happy the Taliban have succeeded, just as I was very happy they succeeded (when they were called the Mujahudeen, when formed by the US administration of Czar Bushy the I, the single biggest mass murderer ever seen) during the war with Russia.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 12:13:12 PM
Although I understand wanting the US gone and having their imperialism stifled, I am not sure how one could be happy the Taliban are in power.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 12:25:25 PM
Although I understand wanting the US gone and having their imperialism stifled, I am not sure how one could be happy the Taliban are in power.
Could be that lack of understanding you have with the Afghans having a big problem with outsiders coming to their country and trying to spread their woke bullshit getting in the way.

There is no such fucking thing as "The Taliban."

That is some fucked up imperialistic word utilized by the woke neocon assholes that got us into this shit to begin with.

I hope they keep kicking ass and taking names, at least until the giants come out of the caves over there again.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 12:29:54 PM
Although I understand wanting the US gone and having their imperialism stifled, I am not sure how one could be happy the Taliban are in power.
We are watching a very Western narrative on the news. About how the Afghanis are devastated and it's the end of the world and we have to let them all immigrate over here and live with us. But I was watching Al Jazeera this morning and most Afghanis don't really care. Many by the Pakistan border were being interviewed and saying it hasn't even disrupted their businesses or their cross border trade. 

The thing is, it was a civil war. And the Americans picked sides. And when they do that, the enemy are suddenly evil terrorists and despicable and do all kinds of human rights atrocities etc ... but how you you expect them to treat you and your allies when you've been drone striking them for 20 years? They hate you, of course.

But regular Afghanis don't seem half as bothered as the BBC are making them out to be. Sure, the current Afghan politicians and those who aided the Americans are packing it. They've lost the war. But no one else seems that bothered despite all the protestations about women's rights and girls education and all the other leftist tropes the MSM like to bandy about.

My feeling is that apart from the current government and allies, everyone else will be better off now this power vacuum has been allowed to equalise.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 12:40:00 PM
Except women. Women will be worse off. So half the population will be worse off. Oh, and all the men who think women shouldn’t be treated like slaves. They also will be worse off.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think America should have been there for 20 years and I don’t doubt on the ground level, many people won’t have their lives substantially disrupted. Except women, of course.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 12:40:53 PM
Although I understand wanting the US gone and having their imperialism stifled, I am not sure how one could be happy the Taliban are in power.
Could be that lack of understanding you have with the Afghans having a big problem with outsiders coming to their country and trying to spread their woke bullshit getting in the way.

Yes, not wanting women treated like slaves is just far-left woke politics.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
Although I understand wanting the US gone and having their imperialism stifled, I am not sure how one could be happy the Taliban are in power.
Could be that lack of understanding you have with the Afghans having a big problem with outsiders coming to their country and trying to spread their woke bullshit getting in the way.

Yes, not wanting women treated like slaves is just far-left woke politics.
I have no idea why you suddenly want to pretend to care about Afghan women, let alone women in general.

None of them could give two shits about your thoughts on anything.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 12:52:27 PM
Except women. Women will be worse off. So half the population will be worse off. Oh, and all the men who think women shouldn’t be treated like slaves. They also will be worse off.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think America should have been there for 20 years and I don’t doubt on the ground level, many people won’t have their lives substantially disrupted. Except women, of course.
But that's just it. I don't think women will be persecuted in the way our media are saying. Can the Taliban AFFORD to educate girls? Mmmmm. Maybe not. Are they going to actively go out to attack women ... I'm not so sure they will. They all have mothers, sisters, daughters and wives. We should put a pin in that one and revisit when the dust settles. Being told a terrible outcome will occur by the media and that imagined doom actually coming to fruition are usually two very different things.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 12:53:13 PM
Except women. Women will be worse off. So half the population will be worse off. Oh, and all the men who think women shouldn’t be treated like slaves. They also will be worse off.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think America should have been there for 20 years and I don’t doubt on the ground level, many people won’t have their lives substantially disrupted. Except women, of course.
But that's just it. I don't think women will be persecuted in the way our media are saying. Can the Taliban AFFORD to educate girls? Mmmmm. Maybe not. Are they going to actively go out to attack women ... I'm not so sure they will. They all have mothers, sisters, daughters and wives. We should put a pin in that one and revisit when the dust settles. Being told a terrible outcome will occur by the media and that imagined doom actually coming to fruition are usually two very different things.

Why do you imagine the Taliban will have changed their treatment of women?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 01:11:47 PM
Except women. Women will be worse off. So half the population will be worse off. Oh, and all the men who think women shouldn’t be treated like slaves. They also will be worse off.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think America should have been there for 20 years and I don’t doubt on the ground level, many people won’t have their lives substantially disrupted. Except women, of course.
But that's just it. I don't think women will be persecuted in the way our media are saying. Can the Taliban AFFORD to educate girls? Mmmmm. Maybe not. Are they going to actively go out to attack women ... I'm not so sure they will. They all have mothers, sisters, daughters and wives. We should put a pin in that one and revisit when the dust settles. Being told a terrible outcome will occur by the media and that imagined doom actually coming to fruition are usually two very different things.

Why do you imagine the Taliban will have changed their treatment of women?
We have confidence you can go over there and reason with them.

Offer them the benefit of your tremendous intellect and compassion and seek to change things one person at a time.

When you get back, let us know how it all went.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 01:19:47 PM
Why do you imagine the Taliban will have changed their treatment of women?
Its not that I think they change how they treat women. Its that I don't believe what I have been told by the MSM about how they treat their women. We are always told our enemies are monsters. Saddam Hussain had WMDs. Assad in Syrian is a madman. Kim Jon Un, also mad. As was Kim Jon Il. Its often lies to get you on board with an unpopular war.

Let's just let the dust settle and see. Driving all of the women out of your country isn't going to make for a very strong next generation of Taliban. I think much of what we got told is BS.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58241000
^Seems women are allowed to carry on as before.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 01:44:53 PM
Why do you imagine the Taliban will have changed their treatment of women?
Its not that I think they change how they treat women. Its that I don't believe what I have been told by the MSM about how they treat their women. We are always told our enemies are monsters. Saddam Hussain had WMDs. Assad in Syrian is a madman. Kim Jon Un, also mad. As was Kim Jon Il. Its often lies to get you on board with an unpopular war.

How did you discern which are lies and which are truths?

Quote
Let's just let the dust settle and see. Driving all of the women out of your country isn't going to make for a very strong next generation of Taliban. I think much of what we got told is BS.

Don't you think that if the Taliban are what we they are portrayed as, women won't be allowed to leave the country?

Quote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58241000
^Seems women are allowed to carry on as before.

So you don't believe Western MSM, but you do believe Afghanistan's MSM? Why is that?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 01:53:40 PM
How did you discern which are lies and which are truths?
Well how can anyone? You have to apply logic and common sense and hope you come up with something resembling the truth. What you can't do is let them spoonfeed you whatever they like.

Don't you think that if the Taliban are what we they are portrayed as, women won't be allowed to leave the country?
How can they stop them? I couldn't help noticing from the images of people fleeing on US aircraft ... they were all men of fighting age. Women and children were not fleeing. That's telling, I think.
(https://i.insider.com/611a4377c040ad0018ce6bc9?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp)


(https://static.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/afghanistan-taliban-refugees-08.jpg)
^ A few women near the front, probably leaving with their husbands. Not many though. Its mostly young men. The ones who likely fought with the Americans.

So you don't believe Western MSM, but you do believe Afghanistan's MSM? Why is that?
I've never even seen Afghan media. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't believe our media. Its corrupt as hell.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 01:56:52 PM
Don't you think that if the Taliban are what we they are portrayed as, women won't be allowed to leave the country?
Can you please write down something that could serve as an intelligible interpretation of what is considered a coherent thought regarding what you mean to communicate?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 02:00:01 PM
How did you discern which are lies and which are truths?
Well how can anyone? You have to apply logic and common sense and hope you come up with something resembling the truth. What you can't do is let them spoonfeed you whatever they like.

So in your mind, its more likely that a hardline Islamic Theocracy will treat women equitably than not, despite the Qu'ran proscribing harsh constraints on women's lives?

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How can they stop them?

With guns.

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I couldn't help noticing from the images on people fleeing on US aircraft ... they were all men of fighting age. Women and children were not fleeing. That's telling, I think.

What do you think that's telling us?

Quote
I've never even seen Afghan media. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't believe our media. Its corrupt as hell.

The default position when you don't trust western media, shouldn't be to instantly trust the media you have never watched before.  This is especially surprising from you, considering your extensive history of Western chauvinism.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 02:05:25 PM
So in your mind, its more likely that a hardline Islamic Theocracy will treat women equitably than not, despite the Qu'ran proscribing harsh constraints on women's lives?
So you've been told. But Saudi Arabia and the UAE are affluent first world Islamic nations. They have a few rules on their women but I don't see America protesting that. Too busy buying oil.

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How can they stop them?
With guns.
Borders are fairly porous things in landlocked countries with no walls.

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I couldn't help noticing from the images on people fleeing on US aircraft ... they were all men of fighting age. Women and children were not fleeing. That's telling, I think.

What do you think that's telling us?
Its telling me the average Afghani doesn't think they are in any mortal danger.

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I've never even seen Afghan media. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't believe our media. Its corrupt as hell.

The default position when you don't trust western media, shouldn't be to instantly trust the media you have never watched before.  This is especially surprising from you, considering your extensive history of Western chauvinism.
How am I trusting media that literally doesn't exist? There is no Taliban TV yet. What are you talking about?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 02:12:43 PM
So you've been told. But Saudi Arabia and the UAE are affluent first world Islamic nations.

We are told this by Afghani people.

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They have a few rules on their women but I don't see America protesting that. Too busy buying oil.

I am not sure why America being hypocrites on the international stage makes the Taliban any more palatable.

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Its telling me the average Afghani doesn't think they are in any mortal danger.

A bunch of people fleeing the country indicates to you that people feel safe in that country?

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How am I trusting media that literally doesn't exist? There is no Taliban TV yet. What are you talking about?

You are aware that the Taliban are back in control of the country?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 02:47:48 PM
I am not sure why America being hypocrites on the international stage makes the Taliban any more palatable.
If you don't give a shit about Saudi women, why should I take you seriously when you complain about the rights of Afghan women? These trampled rights you speak of are probably not as terrible as America makes them out to be, when it suits America to talk of them.

A bunch of people fleeing the country indicates to you that people feel safe in that country?
Its not the people leaving, the few American lackies. Its the millions who seem content and are just getting on with their lives.

You are aware that the Taliban are back in control of the country?
And you are aware it takes more than a day to set up a TV company with a full agenda and get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 03:03:32 PM
If you don't give a shit about Saudi women, why should I take you seriously when you complain about the rights of Afghan women?

When have I ever said that I don't give a shit about Saudi women?  I think Saudi Arabia treats women like shit and its fucking awful that America sucks the King's schlong for the priviledge of using their oil to kill the Earth.

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These trampled rights you speak of are probably not as terrible as America makes them out to be, when it suits America to talk of them.

Ok, but what about when Afghani women talk about them?

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Its not the people leaving, the few American lackies. Its the millions who seem content and are just getting on with their lives.

How do you know there are millions of content people?

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And you are aware it takes more than a day to set up a TV company with a full agenda and get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet?

Why would they have set up a new TV company when they just took over a city with one that is already functioning?  All they had to do was give them talking points.  You know, the thing you accuse Western Media of doing?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
Ok, but what about when Afghani women talk about them?
What are they saying? I'm not seeing any complaints other than those of leftist academic women from Afghanistan who are pushing the liberal agenda into our MSM again and getting paid to say the things they say.

How do you know there are millions of content people?
The only people bleating, are those who latched onto western powers to rule the nation. The enemy of the Taliban.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/afghans-linked-to-british-beg-please-help-save-our-lives-from-taliban

I'd like you to engage your brain for a second.
Quote from: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/17/evacuation-flights-resume-as-biden-defends-afghanistan-pullout
The Taliban has declared an “amnesty” across Afghanistan and urged women to join its government, trying to calm nerves across a tense capital city that only the day before saw chaos at its airport as thousands mobbed the city’s international airport in a desperate attempt to flee.
So, the Taliban reach out to women. Offer amnesty to those who are its natural enemies. And thousands ... not millions flee.
^This doesn't sound dangerous. Its sounds like the American puppet government is being kicked out and other Afghanis are just coming in to rule. And they have no axe to grind, but they want independence from the USA. Sure, the USA have been humiliated again, their fall-of-Saigon images are all over world news and likely Kim Jon Un and pals are going to wave their dicks about knowing America wouldn't dare get into another long war it can't win. But I don't think this is dangerous for the average Afghani citizen. It's a change of party. We have those all the time in our countries. They've been forced to have US endorsed candidates for 20 years. It should be noted other countries like Pakistan and China have welcomed the Taliban and wished them well. America could find itself on the wrong side of history.

Why would they have set up a new TV company when they just took over a city with one that is already functioning?  All they had to do was give them talking points.  You know, the thing you accuse Western Media of doing?
Because you keep labouring this point and for the avoidance of any doubt ... I have not been watching any Afghani television. I don't get Afghani channels. I don't know the name of any Afghani channels. I don't speak Dari or Pashto. I have never watched Afghani TV. Therefore I am confident they have not influenced my thinking in any way shape or form. Can we move on from this absurd point?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 04:24:01 PM
Ok, but what about when Afghani women talk about them?
What are they saying? I'm not seeing any complaints other than those of leftist academic women from Afghanistan who are pushing the liberal agenda into our MSM again and getting paid to say the things they say.

Ignorance is not an excuse. Here is Al Jazeera reporting on a girl who had acid thrown in her face because she wanted to attend school, which women were barred from doing under the Taliban

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2008/11/12/afghan-girls-scarred-in-acid-attack

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The only people bleating, are those who latched onto western powers to rule the nation. The enemy of the Taliban.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/afghans-linked-to-british-beg-please-help-save-our-lives-from-taliban

So no evidence that millions are content. As expected.

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I'd like you to engage your brain for a second.

No need for personal attacks.


Quote
Quote from: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/17/evacuation-flights-resume-as-biden-defends-afghanistan-pullout
The Taliban has declared an “amnesty” across Afghanistan and urged women to join its government, trying to calm nerves across a tense capital city that only the day before saw chaos at its airport as thousands mobbed the city’s international airport in a desperate attempt to flee.
So, the Taliban reach out to women. Offer amnesty to those who are its natural enemies. And thousands ... not millions flee.
^This doesn't sound dangerous. Its sounds like the American puppet government is being kicked out and other Afghanis are just coming in to rule. And they have no axe to grind, but they want independence from the USA. Sure, the USA have been humiliated again, their fall-of-Saigon images are all over world news and likely Kim Jon Un and pals are going to wave their dicks about knowing America wouldn't dare get into another long war it can't win. But I don't think this is dangerous for the average Afghani citizen. It's a change of party. We have those all the time in our countries. They've been forced to have US endorsed candidates for 20 years. It should be noted other countries like Pakistan and China have welcomed the Taliban and wished them well. America could find itself on the wrong side of history.

The Taliban asking people to stay and remain calm says nothing about their intentions of how they will treat them.  History has shown them to be a totalitarian theocracy and I’m not sure why that would change.



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Because you keep labouring this point and for the avoidance of any doubt ... I have not been watching any Afghani television. I don't get Afghani channels. I don't know the name of any Afghani channels. I don't speak Dari or Pashto. I have never watched Afghani TV. Therefore I am confident they have not influenced my thinking in any way shape or form. Can we move on from this absurd point?

You literally started this by holding up a clip of a woman on Afghan television as proof that the Taliban will treat women equitably, despite the evidence that they have treated them barbarically in the past. This is your absurd point we are discussing.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 04:38:35 PM
Ignorance is not an excuse. Here is Al Jazeera reporting on a girl who had acid thrown in her face because she wanted to attend school, which women were barred from doing under the Taliban
No no no. You don't get to do that. That's a MSM trick. You find a single example of something and make out that it is commonplace. Its not. It made world news precisely because it isn't and because it fits with the narrative. One mental person doing something awful isn't typical of the Taliban any more than a school shooter in the USA is typical of Republican voters.


So no evidence that millions are content. As expected.
No evidence they are in danger, either. You are the one asserting things are going to get bad. Prove it.

Quote
I'd like you to engage your brain for a second.
No need for personal attacks.
Not a personal attack. I'm asking you use some critical thought rather than parroting back to me something you read.

The Taliban asking people to stay and remain calm says nothing about their intentions of how they will treat them.
Terrorists do not ask people to remain calm. Quite the opposite.

History has shown them to be a totalitarian theocracy and I’m not sure why that would change.
And the USA is a totalitarian democracy. What's the difference?

You literally started this by holding up a clip of a woman on Afghan television as proof that the Taliban will treat women equitably, despite the evidence that they have treated them barbarically in the past. This is your absurd point we are discussing.
Al Jazeera isn't Afghan television. It is a Middle Eastern media outlet based in Doha, Washington and London.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 04:56:16 PM
Ignorance is not an excuse. Here is Al Jazeera reporting on a girl who had acid thrown in her face because she wanted to attend school, which women were barred from doing under the Taliban
No no no. You don't get to do that. That's a MSM trick. You find a single example of something and make out that it is commonplace. Its not. It made world news precisely because it isn't and because it fits with the narrative. One mental person doing something awful isn't typical of the Taliban any more than a school shooter in the USA is typical of Republican voters.

No women are not all having acid thrown in their face, but there are some other take always you should acknowledge. Women are not allowed to attend school. This was reported by Al Jazeera, so it’s not just a MSM ploy as you have asserted.


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So no evidence that millions are content. As expected.
No evidence they are in danger, either. You are the one asserting things are going to get bad. Prove it.

I’ve already given you an example of horrible acts that occur in Taliban Afghanistan. Just a couple of days ago, they admitted to killing a comedian for… reasons.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/29/taliban-admit-to-killing-afghan-comic-zwan

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Quote
I'd like you to engage your brain for a second.
No need for personal attacks.
Not a personal attack. I'm asking you use some critical thought rather than parroting back to me something you read.

It’s a personal attack because you have assumed, because I disagree with you, that I haven’t thought about it. Meanwhile I have presented evidence, from sources you have put forth, that the Taliban have done some of the things they have been accused of.

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The Taliban asking people to stay and remain calm says nothing about their intentions of how they will treat them.
Terrorists do not ask people to remain calm. Quite the opposite.

I never said they were terrorists. I said they were a totalitarian theocracy. Please try and rebut the points I have made.

Quote
History has shown them to be a totalitarian theocracy and I’m not sure why that would change.
And the USA is a totalitarian democracy. What's the difference?

You literally started this by holding up a clip of a woman on Afghan television as proof that the Taliban will treat women equitably, despite the evidence that they have treated them barbarically in the past. This is your absurd point we are discussing.
Al Jazeera isn't Afghan television. It is a Middle Eastern media outlet based in Doha, Washington and London.

You posted a BBC link with an embedded clip from the Afghani news outlet, Tolo News, and held that up as proof that women are not oppressed by the Taliban.

Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 17, 2021, 05:03:26 PM
Girls are being forcifully married off to Taliban soliders.  A practice that was not uncommon 22 years ago.  Forced marriages have been a thing and are now a thing again.  Because Islamic law treats women as frail, helpless objects to be used as men see fit.  The covering of their bodies is to ensure men don't get horny.  Did you know that?  Its a shit life but, unsurprisingly, the men love it so thats who won.  Women have no power to fight back, argue, or demand better lives.  Doing so is grounds for beatings.  But men... Nah, they can do as they want.


Oh and now they can train an army of suicide bombers to hit western targets.  Because revenge.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 05:04:05 PM
Women being forced to leave their jobs by Taliban soldiers:

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/economy/2021/8/16/as-the-taliban-seized-cities-they-sent-women-packing-home
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 05:23:13 PM
No women are not all having acid thrown in their face, but there are some other take always you should acknowledge. Women are not allowed to attend school. This was reported by Al Jazeera, so it’s not just a MSM ploy as you have asserted.
The Taliban have already asserted today that 'women will have rights within Islamic law'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963

Being as they are rebranding the country as "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" that isn't much of a surprise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Emirate_of_Afghanistan

Basically cover your head and do all the other dumb stuff Islamic women have to do and there's no problem.

Along with putting female newsreaders back on the news, offering everyone an amnesty and generally running the place sensibly. What is the problem?

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58243134
It's much busier in the city than yesterday. There is much more traffic, a few more shops are open, and people are doing their usual jobs.

There have been no reports of violence in the city - no sound of gunfire or helicopters. I can hear a few military jets flying high over the city.

I can see the Taliban presence has increased. Fighters have come from different areas of Afghanistan, the majority of them from Logar province south of the capital. They say they are here to keep order.

The ones I have seen are behaving nicely with people. Sometimes they even ask if you are alright, or if you need help with anything.

I spoke with two street vendors in the centre on Tuesday. As poor Afghans, they said it didn't make any difference to them whether it was the Taliban or Americans in charge.
^ There's the quote you wanted. Poor Afghans don't care who is in charge. It makes no odds to them.

I’ve already given you an example of horrible acts that occur in Taliban Afghanistan. Just a couple of days ago, they admitted to killing a comedian for… reasons.
I'm not interested in your isolated incidents. US soldiers are forever getting called up on war crimes, rapes, murders, torture. Individuals are not the voice of the Taliban.


I never said they were terrorists. I said they were a totalitarian theocracy. Please try and rebut the points I have made.
Well that's just name calling. The US called them terrorists. Now you are calling them a totalitarian theocracy. You just walked away from the terrorist tag. I doubt you've any better evidence for the 'totalitarian theocracy' one.

You posted a BBC link with an embedded clip from the Afghani news outlet, Tolo News, and held that up as proof that women are not oppressed by the Taliban.
So my source was the BBC and not Afghani news. Thank you for clearing that up. I trust you are now satisfied I am not taking my queues from Afghani television. 🙄
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 05:36:36 PM
No women are not all having acid thrown in their face, but there are some other take always you should acknowledge. Women are not allowed to attend school. This was reported by Al Jazeera, so it’s not just a MSM ploy as you have asserted.
The Taliban have already asserted today that 'women will have rights within Islamic law'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963

Being as they are rebranding the country as "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" that isn't much of a surprise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Emirate_of_Afghanistan

Basically cover your head and do all the other dumb stuff Islamic women have to do and there's no problem.

Ah yes, the incredibly equitable Islamic law.

Quote
Along with putting female newsreaders back on the news, offering everyone an amnesty and generally running the place sensibly. What is the problem?

They were always enforcing Islamic Law. Their particular interpretation was heinous. Maybe they’ve changed, but I will want to see evidence of that.

Quote
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58243134
It's much busier in the city than yesterday. There is much more traffic, a few more shops are open, and people are doing their usual jobs.

There have been no reports of violence in the city - no sound of gunfire or helicopters. I can hear a few military jets flying high over the city.

I can see the Taliban presence has increased. Fighters have come from different areas of Afghanistan, the majority of them from Logar province south of the capital. They say they are here to keep order.

The ones I have seen are behaving nicely with people. Sometimes they even ask if you are alright, or if you need help with anything.

I spoke with two street vendors in the centre on Tuesday. As poor Afghans, they said it didn't make any difference to them whether it was the Taliban or Americans in charge.
^ There's the quote you wanted. Poor Afghans don't care who is in charge. It makes no odds to them.

So no evidence of millions of content Afghans. Got it.

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I’ve already given you an example of horrible acts that occur in Taliban Afghanistan. Just a couple of days ago, they admitted to killing a comedian for… reasons.
I'm not interested in your isolated incidents. US soldiers are forever getting called up on war crimes, rapes, murders, torture. Individuals are not the voice of the Taliban.

I’ve shown you evidence of systemic oppression of women by the Taliban as well.


Quote
I never said they were terrorists. I said they were a totalitarian theocracy. Please try and rebut the points I have made.
Well that's just name calling. The US called them terrorists. Now you are calling them a totalitarian theocracy. You just walked away from the terrorist tag. I doubt you've any better evidence for the 'totalitarian theocracy' one.

None that you can’t ignore.

Quote
You posted a BBC link with an embedded clip from the Afghani news outlet, Tolo News, and held that up as proof that women are not oppressed by the Taliban.
So my source was the BBC and not Afghani news. Thank you for clearing that up. I trust you are now satisfied I am not taking my queues from Afghani television. 🙄

The evidence the BBC used was Afghan television. It was literally the entire point of the article. In fact, all the BBC added was where the embedded video originated from and a headline. It feels like you didn’t click your own link.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: stack on August 17, 2021, 05:55:24 PM
The Taliban asking people to stay and remain calm says nothing about their intentions of how they will treat them.
Terrorists do not ask people to remain calm. Quite the opposite.

Apparently, in some cases, quite the opposite of your opposite...

9/11, American Flight 11 Cockpit Transcript:

MOHAMED ATTA
[Inaudible] We have some planes. Just stay quiet and we’ll be O.K. We are returning to the airport.
MOHAMED ATTA
Nobody move, everything will be O.K. If you try to make any moves, you will injure yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 06:00:46 PM
I wonder if anyone can answer what the objective difference is between a totalitarian theocracy and a totalitarian democracy?

I mean, on one hand, democratic rule essentially boils down to mob rule, and we know how well mobs do with humane endeavors.

The other has at least resulted in some form of orderly progression.

I think most people don't know what the word oppression means.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 06:11:04 PM
The hubris exhibited by persons who honestly believe it is their right to pass judgment and dictate what is right and wrong for a culture that has existed for millennia prior to these judgmental edicts being pronounced is simply amazing.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 06:22:43 PM
Imagine using antecedence as a justification for cultural value. I can’t wait for Lackey to bring back witch burning, Prima Nocte and chattel slavery on the same grounds.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 17, 2021, 06:31:20 PM
Before anyone gets the hairbrained scheme there is an iota of difference between Osama Bin Laden and some members here, they ought to read the posts of some of these members here who desire to overthrow an entire culture because they don't like the religion of that culture.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 06:32:52 PM
The Taliban aren’t even Afghani culture writ large. They are an extreme element within it.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Iceman on August 17, 2021, 06:37:51 PM
The Taliban only really emerged out of the Afghan civil war in the 90s following the power vacuum left in the wake the Soviet exit... what are you even talking about?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 07:20:10 PM
Ah yes, the incredibly equitable Islamic law.
It is an islamic country. Were you expecting them to adopt French law?

They were always enforcing Islamic Law. Their particular interpretation was heinous. Maybe they’ve changed, but I will want to see evidence of that.
Where is the evidence their interpretation is 'heinous'? The war was justified by 9/11 ... which is them hurting Americans, not each other.

So no evidence of millions of content Afghans. Got it.
The people as described are getting on just fine. No evidence of millions being persecuted. The burden of proof is on you. You can't ask me to prove something isn't happening. You have to prove it is.

I’ve shown you evidence of systemic oppression of women by the Taliban as well.
An isolated incident isn't 'systematic oppression'. You keep giving me isolated incidents. That isn't proof. I could give you isolated incidents of murder in the UK. It doesn't mean everyone is a murderer.

The evidence the BBC used was Afghan television. It was literally the entire point of the article. In fact, all the BBC added was where the embedded video originated from and a headline. It feels like you didn’t click your own link.
So I received BBC news and you want me to accept it as Afghani news? No, I got my news and viewpoint from the BBC. They decided what I should and shouldn't see. They were the gatekeepers. Not the Afghanis.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 17, 2021, 08:15:01 PM
The taliban are nice guys now? Did they get #metoo'd?

I feel that some people arguing that things are going to be different under the taliban now are overdosing on hopium.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 08:48:13 PM
It is an islamic country. Were you expecting them to adopt French law?

???

Quote
Where is the evidence their interpretation is 'heinous'?

I am not going to repeat myself.  Feel free to circle back and have another go.

Quote
The people as described are getting on just fine. No evidence of millions being persecuted. The burden of proof is on you. You can't ask me to prove something isn't happening. You have to prove it is.

You said millions of Afghans are content.  I am asking you to prove that, not prove they aren't being persecuted.

Quote
]An isolated incident isn't 'systematic oppression'. You keep giving me isolated incidents. That isn't proof. I could give you isolated incidents of murder in the UK. It doesn't mean everyone is a murderer.

Women, as an entire class, were not allowed to be educated under Taliban rule.  Women, as an entire class, were prevented from working.  Please take the time to read what I write carefully, so you don't make elementary errors like this again.

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So I received BBC news and you want me to accept it as Afghani news? No, I got my news and viewpoint from the BBC. They decided what I should and shouldn't see. They were the gatekeepers. Not the Afghanis.

You declared that everthing was fine for women because one appeared on an Afghani news network.  I asked you why you trusted that news network, when you don't trust other media networks.  You then proceeded to miss the point for the next couple of pages.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 08:49:49 PM
The taliban are nice guys now? Did they get #metoo'd?

I feel that some people arguing that things are going to be different under the taliban now are overdosing on hopium.

Even worse, Thork seems to arguing that it was never really that bad, Jeff Bezos just wants you to think its bad.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr David Thork on August 17, 2021, 10:07:56 PM
Quote
Where is the evidence their interpretation is 'heinous'?

I am not going to repeat myself.  Feel free to circle back and have another go.
Yeah, I don't accept your INDIVIDUAL one off anecdotes. If you've nothing else to add, we'll park it there. In every country there are a minority of bad people. That doesn't make the Taliban heinous.

You said millions of Afghans are content.  I am asking you to prove that, not prove they aren't being persecuted.
Its the same thing. You are asking me to prove that they are ok. Well they aren't dead, fleeing or being mass raped. That's ok. Got anything saying they aren't ok? They being more than say 5 of them, because I know how much you like to equate one=many with your lousy sources.

Women, as an entire class, were not allowed to be educated under Taliban rule.  Women, as an entire class, were prevented from working.  Please take the time to read what I write carefully, so you don't make elementary errors like this again.
Women have gone back to work in Afghanistan, women are being offered rights in Afghanistan, women will probably fare better being as 20 years have gone by and even the Taliban will catch up with the rest of the world one day. They are making all the right moves right now.

You declared that everthing was fine for women because one appeared on an Afghani news network.
Never did I say that. Feel free to find that quote.

I asked you why you trusted that news network, when you don't trust other media networks.
I still don't think you realise who Al Jazeera are. They are not Afghanis.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 17, 2021, 10:52:42 PM
Quote
Where is the evidence their interpretation is 'heinous'?

I am not going to repeat myself.  Feel free to circle back and have another go.
Yeah, I don't accept your INDIVIDUAL one off anecdotes. If you've nothing else to add, we'll park it there. In every country there are a minority of bad people. That doesn't make the Taliban heinous.

Good thing I’ve posted more than that. Maybe you’d like to peruse a Wikipedia page as a primer:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_women_by_the_Taliban

No MSM sources went in to the creation of that Wikipedia page.

Quote
You said millions of Afghans are content.  I am asking you to prove that, not prove they aren't being persecuted.
Its the same thing. You are asking me to prove that they are ok. Well they aren't dead, fleeing or being mass raped. That's ok. Got anything saying they aren't ok? They being more than say 5 of them, because I know how much you like to equate one=many with your lousy sources.

There were more than five people climbing on to jet planes hoping to escape.

Quote
Women, as an entire class, were not allowed to be educated under Taliban rule.  Women, as an entire class, were prevented from working.  Please take the time to read what I write carefully, so you don't make elementary errors like this again.
Women have gone back to work in Afghanistan, women are being offered rights in Afghanistan, women will probably fare better being as 20 years have gone by and even the Taliban will catch up with the rest of the world one day. They are making all the right moves right now.

What specific rights have they been offered? I’ve posted above that the Taliban have already forced women to leave their jobs and told them not to return, so what evidence do you have that they are receiving rights?

Quote
You declared that everthing was fine for women because one appeared on an Afghani news network.
Never did I say that. Feel free to find that quote.

Thork, Thork, Thork…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-58241000
^Seems women are allowed to carry on as before.

Quote
I asked you why you trusted that news network, when you don't trust other media networks.
I still don't think you realise who Al Jazeera are. They are not Afghanis.

You trusted that the appearance of a woman on an Afghani news network meant women were fine. That’s trusting an Afghani news network. I’m not sure why you keep inserting Al Jazeera in to this part of the conversation.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 18, 2021, 05:49:04 AM
Thork needs to look at it from another angle: The women who were forced to leave had to be replaced.  But how?
Well, a male relative was FORCED to take the job.

So if Thork's female cousin was suddenly removed from her job, Thork now has to do it.
Thork don't care about women's rights, but he does care about being forced into a job.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 18, 2021, 07:13:33 AM
If I'm going to play the devil's advocate I'd have to say that these incidences with women being forced out of jobs and such are happening during this sort of violent/peaceful exchange of power.  It's possible that a few of their guys didn't have their shit together and that the policy moving forward will be different.

It's kind of unlikely since what's the point of being an extremist if you aren't extreme?  But maybe.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 18, 2021, 07:11:32 PM
A recent embed with the Taliban where a commander discusses his use of hand decapitation and flogging to punish crimes :

https://youtu.be/miE3OjQ7sEY
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 18, 2021, 07:26:19 PM
Taliban are clashing with protesters. So much for the content Afghani hypothesis.

https://twitter.com/pajhwok/status/1427907124743614469?s=20
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 18, 2021, 07:47:41 PM
This is interesting.  A pocket of resistance.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/afghan-envoy-says-hold-out-panjshir-province-can-resist-taliban-rule-2021-08-18/

Of course by the time I post this it could have already been eradicated by the friendly neighborhood Taliban.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 19, 2021, 10:24:56 AM
The group established and funded by the CIA, formerly known as the Mujahudeen, now labeled as the Taliban by the CIA, had enough of the destructive policies implemented b the CIA, under Czar Bushy the I, and will resist the attempts to seize total control of the opium and heroin trade occurring in their country.

GO TALIBAN!!!
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 19, 2021, 11:22:09 AM
The group established and funded by the CIA, formerly known as the Mujahudeen, now labeled as the Taliban by the CIA, had enough of the destructive policies implemented b the CIA, under Czar Bushy the I, and will resist the attempts to seize total control of the opium and heroin trade occurring in their country.

GO TALIBAN!!!

So you are...
Pro-narcotics.
Pro-Shaier law.
And technically a terrorist sympathizer.

You know... Not shocked.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 19, 2021, 01:06:40 PM
The group established and funded by the CIA, formerly known as the Mujahudeen, now labeled as the Taliban by the CIA, had enough of the destructive policies implemented b the CIA, under Czar Bushy the I, and will resist the attempts to seize total control of the opium and heroin trade occurring in their country.

GO TALIBAN!!!

So you are...
Pro-narcotics.
Pro - choice.

I am anti-narcotics of all sorts and believe that if anyone does use narcotics, minimally they are running the risk of typing stupid shit on the internet, just like you are doing here. Eventually, they will hasten their death.

The CIA and the Mafia criminal organizations are pro-narcotics and pro-criminalization of drugs.
Pro-Shaier law.
Evidently, you are anti-spelling.

With Sharia law, they will teach you to spell properly, and if you cannot learn, then they will really teach you, which is probably what you need at this point.
And technically a terrorist sympathizer.
I am consistently on the side of anti-terrorists.

The US and the CIA have committed more acts of terror upon this world than any other group known to man, except maybe the Catholic Church.
You know... Not shocked.
When you cannot spell simple words, you probably have no clue what you are feeling at any given moment.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: nthurd on August 20, 2021, 06:26:02 AM
(...) hand decapitation (...)

You mean removing heads by hand?

Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 20, 2021, 09:49:49 AM
I can’t imagine being so desperate for the US to lose that I would want the Taliban to win.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tron on August 22, 2021, 09:15:28 PM
I have this "other" theory about Afghanistan....   What if people in Afghanistan attacked America on 9/11 because they wanted NATO in there country to help lift the country out of poverty. 

And after 20 years, why is everyone so convinced the Taliban holds no regard for American culture or influence in there country?

Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on August 23, 2021, 01:49:00 PM
I am anti-narcotics of all sorts and believe that if anyone does use narcotics, minimally they are running the risk of typing stupid shit on the internet, just like you are doing here. Eventually, they will hasten their death.

Dude, I was doing drugs and alcohol decades before you were born. I have typed literally millions of words, in the form of novels, articles and postings. Nothing I've never written compares with the anger, nastiness and idiocy in your posts.

Maybe you need to try some drugs.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 23, 2021, 06:42:08 PM
The Taliban doesn't seem so bad. Aside from the treatment of women as a culture, I don't see many faults with them otherwise.

- They eschew alcohol, tobacco, porn, and drugs
- They hate liberals and Zionists
- They don't allow their women to act like whores
- They have zero open homosexuals or lesbians, and no trannies
- The Taliban banned the Covid-19 vaccine (https://manometcurrent.com/afghanistan-taliban-imposes-ban-on-corona-vaccination-occupies-65-of-the-area/)
- Taliban are enemies with ISIS. Usually when people are enemies they have opposite beliefs.
- The Taliban hates drug hustling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan) - "The Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas, roughly three quarters of the world's supply of heroin at the time."
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 23, 2021, 07:13:43 PM
The Taliban doesn't seem so bad. Aside from the treatment of women as a culture, I don't see many faults with them otherwise.

- They eschew alcohol, tobacco, porn, and drugs
- They hate liberals and Zionists
- They don't allow their women to act like whores
- They have zero open homosexuals or lesbians, and no trannies
- The Taliban banned the Covid-19 vaccine (https://manometcurrent.com/afghanistan-taliban-imposes-ban-on-corona-vaccination-occupies-65-of-the-area/)
- Taliban are enemies with ISIS. Usually when people are enemies they have opposite beliefs.
- The Taliban hates drug hustling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan) - "The Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas, roughly three quarters of the world's supply of heroin at the time."

Exactly.  Thank you for admitting this.  I've always been baffled as to why the conservatives hate radical Islam so much.  They seem to like all the same things.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 23, 2021, 07:13:57 PM
The Taliban doesn't seem so bad. Aside from the treatment of women as a culture, I don't see many faults with them otherwise.

- They eschew alcohol, tobacco, porn, and drugs

Why do you hate fun?

Quote
- They hate liberals and Zionists

That you think hating someone who thinks other than you is a worthwhile trait speaks volumes about you.

Quote
- They don't allow their women to act like whores

Why should they control the choices of women?  Don't you think women should make their own choices?  Aren't women also people with human rights?

Quote
- They have zero open homosexuals or lesbians, and no trannies

I knew you were a transphobe, but I didn't know you were a homophobe.  Not surprising.

Quote
- The Taliban banned the Covid-19 vaccine (https://manometcurrent.com/afghanistan-taliban-imposes-ban-on-corona-vaccination-occupies-65-of-the-area/)

Do you think they will change their mind now that the pfizer vaccine has received FDA approval?

Quote
- Taliban are enemies with ISIS. Usually when people are enemies they have opposite beliefs.

Tell that to Sunni and Shia, or Catholics and Protestants, or... well your idea is just wrong.

Quote
- The Taliban hates drug hustling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan) - "The Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas, roughly three quarters of the world's supply of heroin at the time."

I would encourage you to read all of your source; from the same article, "The Afghanistan Opium Risk Assessment 2013, issued by UNODC, suggests that the Taliban has, since 2008, been supporting farmers growing poppy, as a source of income for the insurgency."

Also: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drugs-opium-taliban-afghanistan/

lol Tom

Based on what you have said here, you like them because you are a bigot.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tron on August 23, 2021, 08:45:45 PM
Its my understanding that the Afghan people want Kabul Airport to be a central hub for international transit and trade.  That is one area of hope that I support and can see happening with the well wishes of the world community.  Its possible and definitely worth supporting.

Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 24, 2021, 11:17:14 AM
I am anti-narcotics of all sorts and believe that if anyone does use narcotics, minimally they are running the risk of typing stupid shit on the internet, just like you are doing here. Eventually, they will hasten their death.
Dude, I was doing drugs and alcohol decades before you were born.
Evidence required, because none of what you type here is an indication that you were born prior to 1970, and if that is indeed the case, then you are younger than me by a far sight.
I have typed literally millions of words, in the form of novels, articles and postings. Nothing I've never written compares with the anger, nastiness and idiocy in your posts.
Yes, comparing my posts to the idiocy contained in just this sentence above would serve well in identifying the type of idiocy in the sentence. If you sat down and started typing numbers right now, it would take you three and one-half years just to reach one million words, so forgive me if I do not go for your "millions," claim.
Regardless:

Missing comma after "articles."

A double negative in the sentence that follows.

Your posts are indeed fine examples of lunacy and idiocy at their finest. Since you obviously cannot identify minor grammatical errors in your own communication, no one will take seriously any claim you make regarding your ability in other areas, except for doing drugs and alcohol. Which I encourage you to continue and even increase the daily dosage.
Maybe you need to try some drugs.
After having you so brilliantly display the validity of my position, no thanks.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 24, 2021, 07:54:08 PM
The Taliban doesn't seem so bad. Aside from the treatment of women as a culture, I don't see many faults with them otherwise.

- They eschew alcohol, tobacco, porn, and drugs

Why do you hate fun?

Those are things historically considered to be degenerate. Pretty revealing that you consider the degenerate things of society to be "fun".

Sounds like the Taliban have a better standard on those topics to me.

Quote from: Rama Set
I would encourage you to read all of your source; from the same article, "The Afghanistan Opium Risk Assessment 2013, issued by UNODC, suggests that the Taliban has, since 2008, been supporting farmers growing poppy, as a source of income for the insurgency."

Also: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drugs-opium-taliban-afghanistan/

lol Tom

Did you read your source? It says that when the Taliban was weak the drug trade was rampant, and now that they are strong and in control they are cleaning it up again:

Quote
But now Taliban leaders are promising otherwise. In their first press conference since taking power, Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said Tuesday that the new government has no intention of becoming a narco-state.

"We are assuring our countrymen and women and the international community, we will not have any narcotics produced," Mujahid told reporters in Kabul, AFP reported.

"From now on, nobody's going to get involved (in the heroin trade), nobody can be involved in drug smuggling."

Considering that they have eradicated the heroin trade previously, we can consider this plausible.

Quote from: Rama Set
Based on what you have said here, you like them because you are a bigot.

So anyone who doesn't like what has been considered to be historically degenerate by much of human history is a bigot, and it's not simply your liberal self trying to change facts and push your degeneracy with name calling. Right.  ::)
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 24, 2021, 11:27:32 PM
Those are things historically considered to be degenerate. Pretty revealing that you consider the degenerate things of society to be "fun".

By whom? 

Quote
Did you read your source? It says that when the Taliban was weak the drug trade was rampant

Yes, because the Taliban were using it to profit.

Quote
, and now that they are strong and in control they are cleaning it up again:

Quote
But now Taliban leaders are promising otherwise. In their first press conference since taking power, Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said Tuesday that the new government has no intention of becoming a narco-state.

"We are assuring our countrymen and women and the international community, we will not have any narcotics produced," Mujahid told reporters in Kabul, AFP reported.

"From now on, nobody's going to get involved (in the heroin trade), nobody can be involved in drug smuggling."

Considering that they have eradicated the heroin trade previously, we can consider this plausible.

Considering their history of profiting off of heroin poppies, I will need to see more than a promise.[/quote]

Quote
So anyone who doesn't like what has been considered to be historically degenerate by much of human history is a bigot, and it's not simply your liberal self trying to change facts and push your degeneracy with name calling. Right.  ::)

I will need to see a source on this because the Greeks, Romans, Sumerians, Hindus and Egyptians all had positive relationships with alcohol and mind-altering substances, in many cases they are elevated to religious status.  Obviously the issue comes with abuse of these substances, but I am sure you are aware that many extremely healthy people incorporate moderate alcohol consumption in to their diet and psychedelic substances have been shown to have strong health benefits, when administered with care.

I think it is also very telling that you couldn't even find a flimsy defense of these points:

Quote
Quote
- They hate liberals and Zionists

That you think hating someone who thinks other than you is a worthwhile trait speaks volumes about you.

Quote
- They don't allow their women to act like whores

Why should they control the choices of women?  Don't you think women should make their own choices?  Aren't women also people with human rights?

Quote
- They have zero open homosexuals or lesbians, and no trannies

I knew you were a transphobe, but I didn't know you were a homophobe.  Not surprising.

Quote
- The Taliban banned the Covid-19 vaccine (https://manometcurrent.com/afghanistan-taliban-imposes-ban-on-corona-vaccination-occupies-65-of-the-area/)

Do you think they will change their mind now that the pfizer vaccine has received FDA approval?

Quote
- Taliban are enemies with ISIS. Usually when people are enemies they have opposite beliefs.

Tell that to Sunni and Shia, or Catholics and Protestants, or... well your idea is just wrong.
[/quote]

Careful or a "Post threads Tom has run away from" topic might appear in CN.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 25, 2021, 04:57:15 AM
Debating about what is and isn't degenerate is off topic. This thread is about the failure in Afghanistan.

https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1428141714431217668
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 25, 2021, 06:11:21 AM
Anyone want to tell Tom that it was Trump who set the ball rolling with regard to the withdrawal from Afghanistan?
I guess it was a great idea when Trump wanted to do it.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2021, 10:23:04 AM
Debating about what is and isn't degenerate is off topic. This thread is about the failure in Afghanistan.

Then why did you bring it up?

Quote
https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1428141714431217668

Oh wow! You found a tweet of someone talking shit. What an unbelievable find.

Anyone want to tell Tom that it was Trump who set the ball rolling with regard to the withdrawal from Afghanistan?
I guess it was a great idea when Trump wanted to do it.

I don’t even want to blame Trump. It was going to be a shit show whenever it happened. It’s pretty appalling how hypocritical almost the entire American establishment has changed from wanting to end the forever wars to asserting staying would have made things better. Fingers crossed that evacuation ops continue largely harassment free.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 25, 2021, 12:51:12 PM
I don’t even want to blame Trump. It was going to be a shit show whenever it happened. It’s pretty appalling how hypocritical almost the entire American establishment has changed from wanting to end the forever wars to asserting staying would have made things better. Fingers crossed that evacuation ops continue largely harassment free.
Agreed. You can’t really blame Trump. This happened on Biden’s watch. But it is worth noting that Trump set the ball rolling when it came to this. All the Trumpists deriding Biden for this shit show would have been staunchly defending Trump had he presided over it - it would have been the exact same shit show under Trump.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2021, 01:39:39 PM
I don’t even want to blame Trump. It was going to be a shit show whenever it happened. It’s pretty appalling how hypocritical almost the entire American establishment has changed from wanting to end the forever wars to asserting staying would have made things better. Fingers crossed that evacuation ops continue largely harassment free.
Agreed. You can’t really blame Trump. This happened on Biden’s watch.

That doesn't make sense.  You could absolutely blame Trump if there was good reason.  Its very similar to the financial crisis Obama inherited.  It was caused by actions of his predecessors.  That being said, I think no matter what was done, a withdrawal would have been some version of a clusterfuck.

Quote
But it is worth noting that Trump set the ball rolling when it came to this. All the Trumpists deriding Biden for this shit show would have been staunchly defending Trump had he presided over it - it would have been the exact same shit show under Trump.

Yes.  Owning the libs is a real problem for the GOP.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: garygreen on August 25, 2021, 01:53:22 PM
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

https://twitter.com/theNuzzy/status/1427051039404957697
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 25, 2021, 01:53:34 PM
^Being unable to stop it means the buck must not stop with Biden, which he claimed it did (somewhere between slurps of the ice cream cone).

Here's hoping anyone and everyone who went over there, absolutely knowing the sole reason our presence there was to protect poppy and mine opium for drug dealers, gets stuck and shot to death prior to returning to whatever country they're from.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tumeni on August 25, 2021, 02:11:01 PM
They eschew alcohol, tobacco, porn, and drugs.  ...  Those are things historically considered to be degenerate.

Remind us all, what was Jesus' miracle at Cana ???

Turning the water into wine, or the wine into water?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: garygreen on August 25, 2021, 02:12:28 PM
on a side note, i'm really enjoying how i spent literally 20 years hearing nothing but shrieking from conservatives like "muslims are so awful and don't respect human rights and nancy pelosi wants sharia law in america!!!!!!!1111", and now you dummies can't stop talking about how awesome the taliban is and omg sharia law is great because women are sluts who need to be put in their places.

i wish y'all would pick one side of literally any issue and stick to it for more than a day.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2021, 02:45:51 PM
on a side note, i'm really enjoying how i spent literally 20 years hearing nothing but shrieking from conservatives like "muslims are so awful and don't respect human rights and nancy pelosi wants sharia law in america!!!!!!!1111", and now you dummies can't stop talking about how awesome the taliban is and omg sharia law is great because women are sluts who need to be put in their places.

i wish y'all would pick one side of literally any issue and stick to it for more than a day.

They have a side: Anti-Liberal.  (Despite liberal not meaning Democrat.)
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 25, 2021, 02:50:18 PM
how i spent literally 20 years =/= stick to it for more than a day.
One could state for certain you have massive problems finding your way across the street based on your demonstrable issues with time keeping.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2021, 03:32:51 PM
how i spent literally 20 years =/= stick to it for more than a day.
One could state for certain you have massive problems finding your way across the street based on your demonstrable issues with time keeping.

Yeah, its only been 19 years, 11 months and 1 week since 9/11.  Get owned, libs!
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 25, 2021, 04:29:03 PM
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?

(https://i.imgur.com/uPFCtqp.png)
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2021, 04:42:15 PM
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?


There were only 2,500 military left when Biden took over because Trump withdrew them.  Meanwhile, Biden sent in more than 3,000 troops to help assisst in the Kabul evacuation.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on August 25, 2021, 04:54:28 PM
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?

(https://i.imgur.com/uPFCtqp.png)
Weirdly, he's basically right about this. But I'd suggest you're fooling yourself if you think this would have been any less of a balls up had it happened under Trump.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 25, 2021, 04:58:23 PM
Quote from: Rama Set
There were only 2,500 military left when Biden took over because Trump withdrew them.  Meanwhile, Biden sent in more than 3,000 troops to help assisst in the Kabul evacuation.

What in the world are you talking about? The withdrawal was a complete blunder. They left Americans in Afghanistan and left billion of dollars worth of weapons. This could have been avoided.

Washington Post
Opinion: Biden must rescue thousands of U.S. citizens trapped in Afghanistan (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/16/biden-must-rescue-thousands-us-citizens-trapped-afghanistan/)

USA Today
Trapped in Kabul: Why has America left its citizens in Afghanistan to fend for themselves? (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/08/21/brits-rescuing-citizens-trapped-afghanistan-why-isnt-america/8216592002/)

CNN
Rifles, Humvees and millions of rounds of ammo: Taliban celebrate their new American arsenal (https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/21/politics/us-weapons-arsenal-taliban-afghanistan/index.html)

The Hill
Billions in US weaponry seized by Taliban (https://thehill.com/policy/defense/568493-billions-in-us-weaponry-seized-by-taliban)

New York Post
Taliban has billions in US weapons, including Black Hawks and up to 600K rifles (https://nypost.com/2021/08/20/us-left-billions-in-weapons-in-afghanistan-with-black-hawks-in-talibans-hands/)
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2021, 05:12:43 PM
Tom's list of opinion pieces is right.
We should ensure that the Taliban never gets our stuff.  Lets level the country with nukes.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2021, 05:24:23 PM
Quote from: Rama Set
There were only 2,500 military left when Biden took over because Trump withdrew them.  Meanwhile, Biden sent in more than 3,000 troops to help assisst in the Kabul evacuation.

What in the world are you talking about?

Reality. You?

 
Quote
The withdrawal was a complete blunder. They left Americans in Afghanistan

Evacuation is ongoing. Why are you using the past tense?

Quote
and left billion of dollars worth of weapons.

With the Afghan military, to, you know, fight the Taliban.

Quote
This could have been avoided.

I look forward to the specifics of your plan.

I’ve never said it went well, but I’ve never seen anyone provide alternatives other than 20/20 hindsight, which is pretty lazy. You get extra points for using “liberal media sources” which you habitually decry as untrustworthy.

Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: garygreen on August 25, 2021, 06:22:49 PM
No other way?

hey i'm just going with what turnip said. he was quite clear that this was his plan and his timetable. biden tried to stop all this from happening, but he couldn't.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 25, 2021, 06:58:03 PM
But the buck stops with biden, right? biden stops when he hears the ice cream truck bell, similar to pavlov's dog, right?

As far as conservatives pointing out this or that, kindly remember, this is truly just one coin, with no real sides, as the Bushies simply stated "Hey, I'm now a republican instead of a democrat." Cousin Clinton kept the democrat moniker. The last conservative president was Reagan, but Bush had him shot. Ever since Haig stood up and told the press "we are in charge." Nazi party has reigned supreme.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 25, 2021, 07:09:48 PM
But the buck stops with biden, right? biden stops when he hears the ice cream truck bell, similar to pavlov's dog, right?

As far as conservatives pointing out this or that, kindly remember, this is truly just one coin, with no real sides, as the Bushies simply stated "Hey, I'm now a republican instead of a democrat." Cousin Clinton kept the democrat moniker. The last conservative president was Reagan, but Bush had him shot. Ever since Haig stood up and told the press "we are in charge." Nazi party has reigned supreme.

Classic “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2021, 08:16:43 PM
But the buck stops with biden, right? biden stops when he hears the ice cream truck bell, similar to pavlov's dog, right?

As far as conservatives pointing out this or that, kindly remember, this is truly just one coin, with no real sides, as the Bushies simply stated "Hey, I'm now a republican instead of a democrat." Cousin Clinton kept the democrat moniker. The last conservative president was Reagan, but Bush had him shot. Ever since Haig stood up and told the press "we are in charge." Nazi party has reigned supreme.

Well, at least you realize that Trump wasn't conservative either.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: existoid on August 25, 2021, 08:22:21 PM
I'm an international security buff, so this may be a little wonky, but I'll try to keep it succinct:

"The Morning" newsletter from NYT today basically spent half of its words on the idea that there were "no real alternatives" to a highly chaotic withdrawal and evacuation. In a basic sense, that's true. The US (and Nato) lost the war, and this is what losing a war looks like - evacuation is challenging and messy, former (domestic) allies are identified and murdered by the new regime, etc.

On the other hand, there are a number of very simple things Biden could/should have done that would mitigate some of the disasters of the past two weeks.

#1 The most obvious would be to agree to delay until Winter, as the Afghani officials directly requested this past Spring. Combat operations (particularly major ones like the Taliban executed in the past 8 days to retake the country) are really hard to do in the Afghanistan Winter, so there is usually a sharp drop off of Taliban offensives each Winter. Waiting until November to evacuate would give the Afghani forces time to prepare defenses and give them a better chance of resisting a major Taliban offense in the Spring. Instead, Biden rejected this idea from the Afghani government (which was essentially installed by Biden's predecessors, note), with no serious explanation given as to why.

#2 Biden should also have ensured the operational plans for the withdrawal were far more secret, and less public. It was both a strategic and tactical blunder to announce specific dates (Trump was guilty of this too), and then this blunder is being further amplified by doubling down on not modifying it no matter what is happening. I believe this blunder stems from a belief that the Taliban will inevitably re-take Afghanistan. But it wasn't inevitable as recently as 1 year ago.

#3 And thirdly, and perhaps the most critical, it would have been ridiculously simple to send a very large contingent - say two whole divisions of the US army, and perhaps a few regiments (or even just two battalions) of US marines to the area to explicitly assist in the evacuation and withdrawal. If I'm correct that one reason we foolishly announced loud and clear how and when we're withdrawing is partially because Biden assumes the Taliban will rapidly take over (as they did), then it's even stupider that he didn't provide a large force to simply protect the evacuation and withdrawal itself.  Yes, if we did this the Taliban would believe we are launching new offensives and expanding the war, when we bring in more combat units. So? That would make them more cautious to try a rapid offensive to re-take Kabul under the circumstances. The Taliban has no illusions believing they can win any combined arms battle. They didn't even attack our forces en masse even once from 2014 to this year, when we had a paltry 14000 military personnel or so. There are other challenges created with this last idea, but suffice it to say, it would be eminently possible and allow us to evacuate and withdraw without the level of chaos we've seen.

It is framed in news, polls, and pretty much everywhere that this is "the long war" that we are still fighting after two decades. Sort of. One of the most common misunderstandings about the war at all is the role US and NATO forces play. Since 2014, when Enduring Freedom ended and Freedom's Sentinel took over, nearly all combat operations have been spearheaded by domestic Afghani forces. The US and NATO militaries have provided training, logistical support, air support (which is key), and some small scale anti-terrorism support (i.e., special forces type operations). For seven years the US and NATO militaries haven't really been conducting a war, per se. The Afghani domestic forces have. We've just been supporting them to ensure they persist.

I'm not saying we necessarily should have stayed eternally, but given US combat deaths dropped to double digits yearly in 2014, it's clear this "war" is the calmest and least deadly war the US has ever been involved in. (One way to measure that is the war has been going for about 239 months, and we've had 1833 combat deaths. That's an average of 7.6 per month. Even the first Gulf War would be reckoned at like 149 deaths per month (for a MUCH shorter war), and something like 40 per month on average for the Iraq War (2003-2011).  The only "wars" in which the US has had something like 7 deaths per month on average are not wars at all, but individual, isolated operations (the various imperial interventions our commanders in chief are so fond of (particularly ALL the presidents from Reagan through Obama)).

My point is that we could have drawn down very differently, over more time, done far more professionally and strategically. But we didn't.

What makes this more infuriating is that the primary role of a president, per the US constitution, is to deal with foreign policy (NOT domestic policy). Sadly, over the decades, the US presidency has grown like a cancer to be at least as much (if not more) about domestic politics than dealing with other nations. If Biden ran his presidency like he should, according to his enumerated powers, I think he would have handled it very differently. But his focus is on other matters that are really the province of Congress and the states. Alas.

Would Trump have done any of these things, or done them better? Perhaps not. He was not a brilliant president (though nor was he an abject failure - rather middle of the road in effectiveness, IMO, once you take away the heightened emotions surrounding everything to do with him). But I can see Trump listening to his military advisors more closely on something like this.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Iceman on August 25, 2021, 08:46:51 PM
Agree on most counts, except where you say that Trump would have done a better job listening to his military commanders, but that's not quite here nor there.

Biden botched this, by being too ridgid and not delaying things, or supporting the operation in Kabul with more troops. Absolutely agree. But this was undoubtedly a failure 2 decades in the making and the more I read into things though, the more I see Trump setting this event up to fail.

The deal he struck with the Taliban was a head scratcher in the first place, but was understandable - Americans wanted out. What is striking me more and more is how many breaches of the terms of that deal there have been since it was signed, and the Taliban has suffered zero repercussions. If a deal is contingent upon a set of agreed upon rules, surely the breaking of those rules by one party should lead to reevaluation of the terms of the deal? Look at the timeline of American Military presence since the deal was signed, and compare it to Taliban-held territory and offensive strikes on regional governments/institutions. Why did this deal not get voided by the guy who prides himself on being the best at deals. Ever. Biggly.

By not addressing the inevitable shitshow this was shaping up to be, and completely underestimating the preparedness of the Taliban to seize control the instant the withdrawal created a vacuum, Biden has mud on his face and some blood on his hands. It's mostly for how badly this was handled at the start, as he's done much better in the last several days by presiding over the rapid development of a plan for the efficient evacuation of thousands if people from Kabul. Not enough to save face, but something I guess...
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: existoid on August 25, 2021, 09:19:10 PM
I'm not sure Trump would have stuck to the deal had he been re-elected. There was no reason for him to publicly announce the deal was void as far back as last Fall when he was a lame duck - and the unofficial back channels that were operating to discuss the real deal and situation were likely considering multiple possibilities, but all unknown because it would have been up to Biden, since he is president when the day actually comes to withdraw.

One thing I do believe, is that if Trump had been re-elected and the same events in Afghanistan that happened in the past two weeks happened just the same, Trump would have been excoriated in the media and public to a level not seen in his first four years.

Biden is being (rightly) criticized across the political spectrum right now, but it still hasn't risen to how much vilification Trump generally received for lesser errors. I guess that's neither here nor there. I mean, I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, nor in 2020.

But it's hard to think of a way this could have been handled even worse by Biden. Defenses of anything he's done regarding this debacle are going to sound really hollow to me. (As will attempts to shift focus on what Trump did or didn't do, or even "might" have done or not done - only Biden can "own" what actually transpired under his watch in a war. He's the commander in chief.).
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Iceman on August 25, 2021, 10:57:22 PM
Oh man, Trump would have been absolutely slaughtered in the MSM. Lots of that would have just been the Trump effect, but part of it would have an element of 'making your bed and being forced to lie in it'.

It is hard to think of ways Biden could have done worse with this file... but also easy to think of ways Trump('s transition team) could have made it less challenging for ol Joey No-Pulse to not botch completely (which he may have done any ways)...
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 26, 2021, 12:40:26 AM
this couldn't have turned out any other way because, as turnip points out, the entire thing was his idea. this was his plan. biden wanted to stop the process, but he had no choice because turnip had already set everything in motion and it could not be stopped.

No other way? How about evacuating the American citizens before you withdrawal and not leave behind caches of weapons?

(https://i.imgur.com/uPFCtqp.png)

Trump didn't happen to mention if his surrendering to the Taliban had anything to do with this?

(https://images.axios.com/opd9iQGcUoSYzhQZ1FimHtzCnHA=/0x421:6582x4123/1920x1080/2021/08/20/1629460230913.jpg)
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tron on August 27, 2021, 06:06:00 AM
After evacuations have ended, is the US military willing to stay in Afghanistan to help with the original mission of helping the Afghan people lift themselves out of poverty while maintaining human rights and human dignity?  Can we help provide NATO support which I think everybody, including the Taliban, will support if its in a peaceful, non-warring state?

Kabul airport is a good place to start.  We already have military and Taliban working together to secure the evacuations.  Perhaps we're evacuating to many people and is why bombers are acting up again.   

Are we ready for diplomacy again?  Can we accept the new power structure in Afghanistan and make peace with the Taliban for the sake of Afghani's and the 20 years work our soldiers put into Afghanistan?  I think it might be easier then everyone thinks.

 
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Action80 on August 27, 2021, 10:13:58 AM
That aha moment when you realize there are as many variants of ISIS as there are Covid.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on August 27, 2021, 11:17:22 AM
That aha moment when you realize there are as many variants of ISIS as there are Covid.

So 8?
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on August 27, 2021, 06:48:57 PM
After evacuations have ended, is the US military willing to stay in Afghanistan to help with the original mission of helping the Afghan people lift themselves out of poverty while maintaining human rights and human dignity?  Can we help provide NATO support which I think everybody, including the Taliban, will support if its in a peaceful, non-warring state?

Kabul airport is a good place to start.  We already have military and Taliban working together to secure the evacuations.  Perhaps we're evacuating to many people and is why bombers are acting up again.   

Are we ready for diplomacy again?  Can we accept the new power structure in Afghanistan and make peace with the Taliban for the sake of Afghani's and the 20 years work our soldiers put into Afghanistan?  I think it might be easier then everyone thinks.

 

I don't see why not. The republican party is now strongly pro taliban.

Seriously though in favor with negotiating with the government of Afghanistan, which is now the taliban, if it leads to less misery for their people.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tron on August 27, 2021, 08:31:25 PM
Yeah I agree, any talks which lead to a good outcome is encouraging to me. 
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: J-Man on August 27, 2021, 11:47:18 PM
What did they win? I don't get it.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Tron on August 27, 2021, 11:58:35 PM
Its not about who "won"...  its just about finding the best solution right now.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 28, 2021, 06:50:19 AM
What did they win? I don't get it.

Afghanistan.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: J-Man on August 28, 2021, 12:50:34 PM
I wouldn't be so sure thats a win. I think Israel or US will turn it into glass over the next decade. We've been in the middle east last 30 years, why? Exactly....
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 28, 2021, 02:38:09 PM
I wouldn't be so sure thats a win. I think Israel or US will turn it into glass over the next decade. We've been in the middle east last 30 years, why? Exactly....

Oil.
Still a big deal.  Until we all switch to electric cars.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2021, 09:53:08 PM
The Final U.S. Military Plane Has Left Afghanistan, Marking The War's End https://www.npr.org/2021/08/30/1032367184/rockets-kabul-airport-deadline-us-troops-bomb?sc=18&f=1001
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on September 08, 2021, 07:26:47 PM
The Taliban will be banning women from playing sport because people might see their face or body.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/08/afghan-women-to-be-banned-from-playing-sport-taliban-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2021, 08:05:25 PM
The Taliban will be banning women from playing sport because people might see their face or body.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/08/afghan-women-to-be-banned-from-playing-sport-taliban-say?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
If you can't see their face or body, you can't lust after them.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2021, 01:21:44 AM
More Taliban 2.0 centrism on display as they ban all non-approved protests.

https://www.axios.com/taliban-bans-protests-with-no-approval-from-government-c98fb8a4-e9fd-4361-8784-e3db3a32991c.html
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2021, 04:21:00 AM
More Taliban 2.0 centrism on display as they ban all non-approved protests.

https://www.axios.com/taliban-bans-protests-with-no-approval-from-government-c98fb8a4-e9fd-4361-8784-e3db3a32991c.html

In fairness, America sort of does that too.  Need a permit to protest in most areas.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Rama Set on December 06, 2021, 01:38:01 PM
https://www.jurist.org/news/2021/12/armed-taliban-break-up-lawyers-press-conference-protesting-afghanistan-bar-association-takeover/

I’m seeing more and more why right-wing Americans were happy the Taliban took over.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on December 06, 2021, 08:11:03 PM
https://www.jurist.org/news/2021/12/armed-taliban-break-up-lawyers-press-conference-protesting-afghanistan-bar-association-takeover/

I’m seeing more and more why right-wing Americans were happy the Taliban took over.

The Taliban is Right Wing heaven.  Except they're muslim and not Christians.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: crutonius on December 07, 2021, 12:56:52 AM
A distinction without a difference.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Kangaroony on December 10, 2021, 05:09:47 PM
A distinction without a difference.

Yes.  Muslims and Christians both believe in the existence of supernatural entities
and paranormal phenomena.  Just different ones LOL.
Title: Re: The Taliban Won
Post by: Lord Dave on December 10, 2021, 05:12:05 PM
A distinction without a difference.

Yes.  Muslims and Christians both believe in the existence of supernatural entities
and paranormal phenomena.  Just different ones LOL.

Eh. Technically the same one.  Hell, they consider Jesus to be a prophet of God.
They just go about things differently.