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Offline xasop

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Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« on: April 19, 2015, 09:25:36 AM »
Three Australian states (NSW, Victoria and Queensland) and one territory (ACT) have agreed to begin trialling cannabis for medicinal use for serious illnesses. If successful (as I have no doubt it will be), this could open the door to more progressive drug laws in the future.

Despite being blocked in Tasmania and Western Australia, I'm very optimistic about this move. Australia has developed a tendency to fall behind on social policies in recent years, including those regarding drugs, marriage equality, freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and while the situation at the moment is far from dire, it will become so if we don't start keeping pace with progressive governments in Europe and North America. The first step has now been taken, at least on the drug front.

My eventual hope is that this trial, combined with the NSW government's obvious concern for alcohol-related violence in Sydney, will lead them to decriminalising recreational marijuana as an alternative to Sydney's decadent alcohol culture.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 10:28:53 AM »
It's humorous that a drug as 'soft' as marijuana is still restricted so heavily here, even if it isn't heavily policed. Lots of people don't really care about the issue either. I think in the very least it should be legalized for medical use.

Next up, MDMA..

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 10:40:03 AM »
This is a very bipolar approach.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed be progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:57:28 AM by Dr David Thork »

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2015, 10:44:41 AM »
This is a very bipolar approach.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed by progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.

Cigarettes are not equivalent in that they actually kill you. Besides that, there's many ways to get marijuana into the body.

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 10:53:35 AM »
This is a very bipolar approach.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed by progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.

Cigarettes are not equivalent in that they actually kill you. Besides that, there's many ways to get marijuana into the body.
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

And no. People may make fudge brownies because they are students, but the vast majority of recreational use the world over is smoking marijuana. You just haven't thought it through. You want to be seen as a liberal nation that allows people freedom of choice when it suits you, but are happy to be part of an oppressive regime that will ban things before anyone else on grounds of health or the environment because that suits your ideology. What you are doing is actually just wanting totalitarian control based on your ideology and that the laws should fit your world view, and to hell with the freedom of choice for anyone who doesn't want widespread drug use in their community or chooses to be a smoker.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 10:59:00 AM »
This is a very bipolar approach.

No, introducing a new subject and labelling it "progressive" doesn't make my use of the term "progressive" any less consistent.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Packaging regulations are entirely orthogonal to substance legality. There is no conflict here.

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

Regulations on where and when smoking is acceptable are entirely orthogonal to substance legality. Again, no conflict.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed by progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

As you've already pointed out, we haven't stopped smoking. All we've done is introduced regulations that limit the damage smoking can do to society.

Legalisation of marijuana is not an all-or-nothing issue. This seems to be a recurring problem with you; you seem to see someone saying "X should be legal", and somewhere between your retina and your cortex, the message transforms into "I think X is a great thing and we should have no restrictions whatsoever on it".

Cigarettes and alcohol are both legal in Australia, and both have regulations as to where, when and by whom their use is acceptable. All I'm suggesting is that cannabis be given the same treatment.

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.

If we do that, it will certainly prove my point about us falling behind on the social policy front.

There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

Uh. Wow. This is just... I don't even.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 11:14:59 AM »
I'll pick out two things.

1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.

2) You already have regulation of marijuana.
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Australia#Legislation_and_policy
Australia has largely avoided a punitive drug policy, developing instead harm-minimisation strategies and a treatment framework embedded in a law-enforcement regime. Import and export of cannabis is illegal, and federal penalties apply.

It is illegal to sell. You don't get punished for possession for personal use. Your nation is already doing exactly what you advocate. It has harm-minimisation strategies, but isn't punishing users.

Making cannabis legal may sound very hipster and cool, but it goes against the strategies put in place by your nation to protect the public and minimise health issues.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 11:21:43 AM »
Th*rk. Stop.
The Mastery.

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Offline Foxbox

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 11:23:56 AM »
1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.

Lol no. You can add tobacco to your joint but you most certainly do not have to. I never add tobacco to my joints, nor do I know anyone who does.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 11:27:14 AM by Foxbox »

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Offline xasop

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 11:25:54 AM »
Making cannabis legal may sound very hipster and cool, but it goes against the strategies put in place by your nation to protect the public and minimise health issues.

Incorrect. As I alluded to in the OP, there is already a significant amount of alcohol-related violence in Sydney. Legalising recreational marijuana has the potential to reduce the impact of alcohol on society by providing a less harmful alternative.
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Offline Crudblud

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 11:29:52 AM »
1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.
Putting tobacco in joints is what chavs used to do in order to make their weed last longer. Based on my own experiences, and the accounts of others, it seems like very few people roll joints with tobacco.

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 11:35:21 AM »
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

The composition can vary quite a bit, but you realistically don't smoke multiple joints a day as you would a pack of ciggies.

And no. People may make fudge brownies because they are students, but the vast majority of recreational use the world over is smoking marijuana. You just haven't thought it through. You want to be seen as a liberal nation that allows people freedom of choice when it suits you, but are happy to be part of an oppressive regime that will ban things before anyone else on grounds of health or the environment because that suits your ideology. What you are doing is actually just wanting totalitarian control based on your ideology and that the laws should fit your world view, and to hell with the freedom of choice for anyone who doesn't want widespread drug use in their community or chooses to be a smoker.

I don't care much for the emotional arguments. The fact of the matter is that marijuana kills.. well, no one. Yet thousands die and burden our health system as a result of mild cigarette use. There's a stark difference between the two, and no amount of conflation with cigarettes is going to deny that.

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 11:42:15 AM »
1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.
Putting tobacco in joints is what chavs used to do in order to make their weed last longer. Based on my own experiences, and the accounts of others, it seems like very few people roll joints with tobacco.
Well back in the day, I smoked superskunk. Make a pure joint out of that stuff and the washing up isn't going to get done.

Also, there seems to be a theme amongst you all that marijuana has no ill effects and is absolutely fine, like drinking a cup of water. It is a psycho active drug. Prolonged use can cause all kinds of issues. Paranoia, anxiety, schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression.

I can tell you from my own experience it effected me for many years after. It gave me a bit of a stutter (gone now), slowed my speech and it ruined my short term memory ... also rectified. But those things took about 5 years to be completely sorted.

And yes, I smoked a hell of a lot of weed at uni. About an ounce a week. It was stupid and expensive. Haven't touched the stuff since the day I graduated about 15 years ago.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 11:44:08 AM by Dr David Thork »

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2015, 11:46:03 AM »
Also, there seems to be a theme amongst you all that marijuana has no ill effects and is absolutely fine, like drinking a cup of water. It is a psycho active drug. Prolonged use can cause all kinds of issues. Paranoia, anxiety, schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression.

I can tell you from my own experience it effected me for many years after. It gave me a bit of a stutter (gone now), slowed my speech and it ruined my short term memory ... also rectified. But those things took about 5 years to be completely sorted.

Just about anything is bad in excess.

And yes, I smoked a hell of a lot of weed at uni.

Found the problem ;)

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 11:46:34 AM »
The composition can vary quite a bit, but you realistically don't smoke multiple joints a day as you would a pack of ciggies.
I did. ???

1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.
Putting tobacco in joints is what chavs used to do in order to make their weed last longer. Based on my own experiences, and the accounts of others, it seems like very few people roll joints with tobacco.
I never met anyone who doesn't put tobacco in a joint. For a start, it doesn't burn well without tobacco and keeps going out.

And by the way, how the hell do you smoke oils or resin in a joint without tobacco? And before you say bong, those are really really really bad for the lungs.

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2015, 11:49:51 AM »
Making cannabis legal may sound very hipster and cool, but it goes against the strategies put in place by your nation to protect the public and minimise health issues.

Incorrect. As I alluded to in the OP, there is already a significant amount of alcohol-related violence in Sydney. Legalising recreational marijuana has the potential to reduce the impact of alcohol on society by providing a less harmful alternative.
I used to get high and then go out for drinks. Once you get used to smoking weed a lot, you don't get sick off it. You aren't going to solve the issue by adding more drugs to choose from. But you are likely to elevate crime as 'chavs' need some money for their new hobby.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2015, 11:58:00 AM »
Also, there seems to be a theme amongst you all that marijuana has no ill effects and is absolutely fine, like drinking a cup of water. It is a psycho active drug. Prolonged use can cause all kinds of issues. Paranoia, anxiety, schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression.

No. See also:

This seems to be a recurring problem with you; you seem to see someone saying "X should be legal", and somewhere between your retina and your cortex, the message transforms into "I think X is a great thing and we should have no restrictions whatsoever on it".

I am saying that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol, and therefore it would reduce the harmful effects of alcohol if it were easily available as an alternative. Not everything is black and white.

Furthermore, the harmful effects of cannabis are entirely on the user; alcohol causes antisocial behaviour which creates harmful effects even for people who are drinking responsibly. Even if they caused the same degree of harm, it is still preferable to have someone mess up their own life than to mess up the lives of others.

I used to get high and then go out for drinks. Once you get used to smoking weed a lot, you don't get sick off it. You aren't going to solve the issue by adding more drugs to choose from. But you are likely to elevate crime as 'chavs' need some money for their new hobby.

Once again, not everything is black and white. The fact that the availability of marijuana won't stop people from drinking does not imply that it won't stop some people from drinking, or that it won't reduce the amount people drink, or that it won't reduce the harmful effects of alcohol on society.

Ultimately, these are effects we can't be sure of until we trial it and measure its success, which I understand has worked well in the Netherlands and Portugal. I want to see if we have the same success in Australia.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 12:02:17 PM by Parsifal »
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2015, 11:59:40 AM »
People I know tend to just mix the two of them, which is stupid. Small sample size and all though.

Thork

Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2015, 12:07:35 PM »
Is there a breathalyser test for marijuana? Or doesn't being high effect your driving? I'd say that would effect others.

Why do you think making cannabis legal will reduce drinking? It hasn't in the Netherlands and Portugal despite your assertion. Portugal drink way more than us Brits and by God, we drink a lot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita
That's a very very weird theory with no scientific backing at all. If you want to stop people drinking so much, just get bar staff to breathalyse customers and set a limit. Or raise the cost of alcohol. Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

People I know tend to just mix the two of them, which is stupid. Small sample size and all though.
Yeah, they will. Its not an alternative to drinking.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2015, 01:25:54 PM »
Is there a breathalyser test for marijuana? Or doesn't being high effect your driving? I'd say that would effect others.

No, just like there isn't a breathalyser test for being agitated, stressed or tired, all of which can adversely affect your driving. Fortunately, there are blood tests, and while they are more difficult to perform than breath tests, this problem is easily addressed by permitting police to perform random blood tests at their discretion. This is a very minor issue and has little bearing on the matter at hand.

Why do you think making cannabis legal will reduce drinking? It hasn't in the Netherlands and Portugal despite your assertion. Portugal drink way more than us Brits and by God, we drink a lot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita
That's a very very weird theory with no scientific backing at all. If you want to stop people drinking so much, just get bar staff to breathalyse customers and set a limit. Or raise the cost of alcohol. Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

Oh boy, where do I start?

First, the fact that their alcohol consumption is high does not imply that it has not been reduced. Second, my point was not that cannabis had reduced the amount of drinking in Portugal, but rather that it has had a net positive impact on their society. In particular:

In the Portuguese case, the statistical indicators and key informant interviews that we have reviewed suggest that since decriminalization in July 2001, the following changes have occurred:
  • small increases in reported illicit drug use amongst adults;
  • reduced illicit drug use among problematic drug users and adolescents, at least since 2003;
  • reduced burden of drug offenders on the criminal justice system;
  • increased uptake of drug treatment;
  • reduction in opiate-related deaths and infectious diseases;
  • increases in the amounts of drugs seized by the authorities;
  • reductions in the retail prices of drugs.

Whether we also see positive results with our social problems in Sydney remains to be seen. My point is that we don't know for certain what effect it will have until we try it.

Finally, I'm not suggesting that making cannabis legal will reduce drinking, only that it stands a chance of addressing our alcohol-related violence problem. There are any number of ways it could do that, one of which is a reduction in the amount of drinking, but another could simply be that its relaxant properties help to suppress the antisocial behaviour associated with alcohol. As I said, we don't know for certain until we try it.

People I know tend to just mix the two of them, which is stupid. Small sample size and all though.
Yeah, they will. Its not an alternative to drinking.

That depends entirely on what your motive for drinking is. The blanket statement that "its [sic] not an alternative to drinking" completely ignores the fact that other people might drink for reasons different than your own.

In my particular case, sometimes I have a drink just because I feel like unwinding, or want a buzz. In that case, I would likely be equally well satisfied by marijuana. As someone who has never taken cannabis, it's impossible to comment directly on what the after-effects are like, but I would be very interested in trying alternative ways of getting a buzz without alcohol's withdrawal symptoms.

Of course, there are also some people for whom it would not be an alternative to drinking, and that's perfectly fine because the point is not to prevent all alcohol consumption. Why is it so difficult to get this point across?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol