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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: DDDDAts all folks on December 13, 2013, 09:56:00 PM

Title: Yet another one
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 13, 2013, 09:56:00 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25375064

When will America start to realise their attitude to guns and their gun culture needs tackling?

Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: jroa on December 13, 2013, 11:20:44 PM
When all of the bad gun people have been executed, we will have peace. 
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 13, 2013, 11:26:16 PM
Why is this a gun issue?  Sounds more like a psychological issue, as is usually the case when school shootings end in suicide.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Lemon on December 14, 2013, 01:40:17 AM
The proper way would be to purge those of faulted psychology, preferably by crucifixion.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Rama Set on December 14, 2013, 02:55:25 AM
Why is this a gun issue?  Sounds more like a psychological issue, as is usually the case when school shootings end in suicide.

It's a gun issue because a disturbed minor apparently had no issue getting his hands on one and ammunition to go and murder someone. It's a psychological issue as well to be sure, but these types of tragedies are much less horrific if some place does not end up full of bodies and bullet holes. Maybe we should thank the guns for putting the deeper issues in the spotlight?  I dunno...
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 14, 2013, 03:07:03 AM
Why is this a gun issue?  Sounds more like a psychological issue, as is usually the case when school shootings end in suicide.

It's a gun issue because a disturbed minor apparently had no issue getting his hands on one and ammunition to go and murder someone. It's a psychological issue as well to be sure, but these types of tragedies are much less horrific if some place does not end up full of bodies and bullet holes. Maybe we should thank the guns for putting the deeper issues in the spotlight?  I dunno...

Or thank his parents for not keeping their guns securely locked away from irresponsible children.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 14, 2013, 03:57:57 AM
false flag crisis actors it's really all about katsung
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Rushy on December 14, 2013, 04:12:35 AM
Yes, the FBI planted this nonsense to lure Katsung into some sort of really elaborate trap that he has cleverly evaded.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Rama Set on December 14, 2013, 05:16:36 AM
Like a time share purchase.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 14, 2013, 06:35:56 AM
Yes, the FBI planted this nonsense to lure Katsung into some sort of really elaborate trap that he has cleverly evaded.

They will most likely nuke China in their next effort to get him.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 14, 2013, 09:07:20 AM
Why is this a gun issue?  Sounds more like a psychological issue, as is usually the case when school shootings end in suicide.

It's a gun issue because a disturbed minor apparently had no issue getting his hands on one and ammunition to go and murder someone. It's a psychological issue as well to be sure, but these types of tragedies are much less horrific if some place does not end up full of bodies and bullet holes. Maybe we should thank the guns for putting the deeper issues in the spotlight?  I dunno...

Or thank his parents for not keeping their guns securely locked away from irresponsible children.

Most parents (people) don't own a gun, or feel the need to carry one around with them, in the UK because we feel safe enough on our streets. I feel sorry for those in America who do feel the need to carry a gun around with them because they obviously have an unsafe society or they're extremely paranoid.

Mental illness happens in every society, however if this kid was in the UK he would have found it much much harder to find a gun to shoot people with it.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Lord Dave on December 14, 2013, 01:31:44 PM
Oh look, it ended with no fatalities (yet) and it didn't require a gun in the hand of anyone.

Suck it gun nuts.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 14, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
Oh look, it ended with no fatalities (yet) and it didn't require a gun in the hand of anyone.

Suck it gun nuts.

The headline quite clearly states that the gunman is dead.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 14, 2013, 03:01:23 PM
The only fatality was from a self inflicted gunshot.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 14, 2013, 03:32:01 PM
This 1 bothered me. I've always believed in gun rights, but I'm beginning to wonder now. In Henry VIII's time, people kept weapons because there was no standing army. That is obviously no longer the case. The question now is, should we still allow it? & if we do, should we limit the variety? I'm not sure. Currently, the only countries w/ more liberal gun laws than ours are Finland & Switzerland, for the maintenance of a militia, since both nations have very small militaries. Obviously, the US, with the 2nd or 3rd largest military in the world, is different.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 14, 2013, 04:35:31 PM
Well, this article I found says a Harvard stufy found a negative correlation between gun onwership and murder rates - the less people that own guns in a nation, the higher the murder rate.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

The muders included are not just gun murders, but all murders.  I think the correlation is there because people aren't going to attack someone if they think they'll get shot in the process. 

Why is this a gun issue?  Sounds more like a psychological issue, as is usually the case when school shootings end in suicide.

It's a gun issue because a disturbed minor apparently had no issue getting his hands on one and ammunition to go and murder someone. It's a psychological issue as well to be sure, but these types of tragedies are much less horrific if some place does not end up full of bodies and bullet holes. Maybe we should thank the guns for putting the deeper issues in the spotlight?  I dunno...

Or thank his parents for not keeping their guns securely locked away from irresponsible children.

Most parents (people) don't own a gun, or feel the need to carry one around with them, in the UK because we feel safe enough on our streets. I feel sorry for those in America who do feel the need to carry a gun around with them because they obviously have an unsafe society or they're extremely paranoid.

Mental illness happens in every society, however if this kid was in the UK he would have found it much much harder to find a gun to shoot people with it.

Then I take it many parents in the UK also do not go hunting.  The fact that a shotgun was used in this case is what leads me to believe it was his parents', as many people in the US hunt using shotguns.  If this is the case, then it's similar to another shooting at a middle school where the student took the gun from his home.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Rushy on December 14, 2013, 04:44:23 PM
I don't take the UK's opinion on anything seriously. I've had too many people from an island smaller than most US states try to tell me why I don't need a gun nor a truck because they can't possibly comprehend the things those are used for. I imagine most of them are specifically from England, where the population density per km^2 never falls below 100.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 14, 2013, 04:53:48 PM
We have tried the "limit the variety" approach and it didn't have any significant impact on gun violence by the time it expired.  I don't think you can realistically revoke the gun rights of Americans since the founding fathers saw this right to be important enough to not only include it as part of the first set of inalienable rights of citizens, but listed it second only to the right of free speech.  I think the bigger issue is the underlying cause of these events and not the means by which they are carried out. 
Firstly, I think parents should be more involved in their children's lives (I'm not saying this is the case here but in general).  An active and healthy parent-child relationship will not only help the child cope with the stresses of their social lives, but will also help them increase their school performance as well.  An active parent may also be able to see the signs that their child is experiencing mental instability, whether from an illness, bullying, or whatever other reason).
Secondly, the gun owning parents need to better safeguard their guns.  I've seen several stories of grade school children finding their parent's handgun in the closet and bringing it to school in their backpack.  Every gun owner should have the wherewithal to be responsible enough to have a place to store their guns where their children cannot get to them.  This includes not giving the gun safe combination to their teenagers.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: model 29 on December 14, 2013, 06:51:54 PM
false flag crisis actors it's really all about katsung
Is the timing with the 1 year anniversary of the Newtown shooting mere coincidence?  Hmmmm  And not far from Columbine either....

We have tried the "limit the variety" approach and it didn't have any significant impact on gun violence by the time it expired.
Yep, I recall the cries of those who said the streets were going to erupt in warfare if the 94 AWB were to expire.  Heaven forbid they actually took the time to understand anything about said "assault weapons" and what that bill actually did as far as "banning" anything. ::)

This 1 bothered me. I've always believed in gun rights, but I'm beginning to wonder now.
Ever heard the saying, "Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it" (wording varies)?  Back in the 30's a certain political figure in Europe called for gun registration and control, followed by the attempted eradication of an entire religious/ethnic (whichever you prefer) group.  It wasn't a one-time isolated incident either.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 14, 2013, 07:45:00 PM
Model, the correct term is 'ethno-religious group'. Beyond that, your point is well taken.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Lord Dave on December 14, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
false flag crisis actors it's really all about katsung
Is the timing with the 1 year anniversary of the Newtown shooting mere coincidence?  Hmmmm  And not far from Columbine either....
Well, people are more depressed around Christmas.

Quote
We have tried the "limit the variety" approach and it didn't have any significant impact on gun violence by the time it expired.
Yep, I recall the cries of those who said the streets were going to erupt in warfare if the 94 AWB were to expire.  Heaven forbid they actually took the time to understand anything about said "assault weapons" and what that bill actually did as far as "banning" anything. ::)
Well, those people were dumb.  It's a slow build-up, not an all out warfare.

Quote
This 1 bothered me. I've always believed in gun rights, but I'm beginning to wonder now.
Ever heard the saying, "Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it" (wording varies)?  Back in the 30's a certain political figure in Europe called for gun registration and control, followed by the attempted eradication of an entire religious/ethnic (whichever you prefer) group.  It wasn't a one-time isolated incident either.

Woah there bucko.
In 1919, Regulations on Weapons Ownership was passed which banned ALL GUNS AND AMMO!

Then in 1928 the communists and socialists forced the conservative party to enact the  Law on Firearms and Ammunition which allowed firearm possession with licenses.

Then in 1938, they enacted German Weapons Act which basically relaxed all restrictions on guns except hand guns.  Rifles and the like were basically open game.  Guns could be owned earlier (age 18 instead of 20).  The only real restriction were for Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany)

Not only did Mr.Hitler actually DECREASE gun restrictions (From the European enacted restrictions) BUT he only restricted it from the Jews, not everyone else.  If anything that meant that only Jews were bound by the Treaty of Versailles.


To put it into perspective:
If the government were to ban guns from all Democrats then it would be a lot like Nazi Germany.  But they aren't so it isn't.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Hoppy on December 14, 2013, 08:45:38 PM
There may be a 6 week cycle to this kind of event.

http://6weekcycle.com/
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Socker on December 15, 2013, 06:12:26 AM
My state is pretty much the model of pro gun support (probably pretty close to Texas) and I guess that influences me into supporting gun rights. I have no interest in having a gun of my own, but I honestly feel safer knowing a large percentage of adults have a gun.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: rooster on December 15, 2013, 06:20:09 AM
My state is pretty much the model of pro gun support (probably pretty close to Texas) and I guess that influences me into supporting gun rights. I have no interest in having a gun of my own, but I honestly feel safer knowing a large percentage of adults have a gun.
TN?
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Socker on December 15, 2013, 06:24:06 AM
Nope, SC. We're the stereotypical gun waving people with the confederate flag bumper stickers. At least some of us.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: rooster on December 15, 2013, 06:48:47 AM
Nope, SC. We're the stereotypical gun waving people with the confederate flag bumper stickers. At least some of us.
So is TN.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Socker on December 15, 2013, 07:07:39 AM
I guess they're pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 15, 2013, 07:15:05 AM
Yes, I lived in TN for 3 yrs. Clarksville. I hated it, except for Nashville. Nashville was big enough to have 4 synagogues & a whole shtetl. Outside of that, it was brutal being anything other than SBC. But the shtetl was great.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: rooster on December 15, 2013, 08:00:00 AM
Yes, I lived in TN for 3 yrs. Clarksville. I hated it, except for Nashville. Nashville was big enough to have 4 synagogues & a whole shtetl. Outside of that, it was brutal being anything other than SBC. But the shtetl was great.
Yeah, Nashville is pretty diverse. It has the largest Kurdish population in America for example. I don't know how the Jewish population is though.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: model 29 on December 17, 2013, 07:26:04 AM
Woah there bucko.
In 1919, Regulations on Weapons Ownership was passed which banned ALL GUNS AND AMMO!
So now you have an entire nation of with an un-known number gun owners with an un-known number of weapons.  How to deal with this?

Quote
Then in 1928 the communists and socialists forced the conservative party to enact the  Law on Firearms and Ammunition which allowed firearm possession with licenses.
Make owning them legal, but have people register them.  Now they can start compiling a list and know who owns what.

Quote
Then in 1938, they enacted German Weapons Act which basically relaxed all restrictions on guns except hand guns.  Rifles and the like were basically open game.  Guns could be owned earlier (age 18 instead of 20).  The only real restriction were for Jews.
Indeed.  Acquisition requirments were relaxed, but that only expanded to hunting permit holders, government workers, and NSDAP members, in addition to the central government, state, and railway officials.  Only those deemed trustworthy could get permits, and Jews were banned from manufacturing and transfers, but from what I've read, could still own them assuming they weren't already labeled as an 'enemy of the state', but in Nov of 1938, Jews were banned outright from possessing guns.

How did the government know which of the 'un-trustworthy' had guns?  With their registration records.

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany)

Not only did Mr.Hitler actually DECREASE gun restrictions (From the European enacted restrictions)
Not a bad way either to gain support and popularity by the people by standing up to foreign nations telling them what they can or can't do.

Quote
BUT he only restricted it from the Jews, not everyone else.  If anything that meant that only Jews were bound by the Treaty of Versailles.
And how well did that work out for the Jews and anyone else deemed un-fit, untrustworthy, enemy of state, etc.  Made rounding up that much easier anyway.

Quote
To put it into perspective:
If the government were to ban guns from all Democrats then it would be a lot like Nazi Germany.  But they aren't so it isn't.
Registration, who can't own a gun, or types of guns one can't own, are increasing here too.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Tau on December 17, 2013, 12:48:53 PM
Well, this article I found says a Harvard stufy found a negative correlation between gun onwership and murder rates - the less people that own guns in a nation, the higher the murder rate.

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

The muders included are not just gun murders, but all murders.  I think the correlation is there because people aren't going to attack someone if they think they'll get shot in the process. 


There are a lot of studies about it, and they all seem to have different results. For example, another study (please don't make me find it) showed that owning a gun makes you several times more likely to die a violent death. I suspect it probably depends a lot on who is offering the funding.

The problem with that logic, about deterrence, is that most murders don't happen on a whim. The thought "what if he has a gun?" rarely goes through the killer's head. Murder is, in most cases, an act of passion.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Rama Set on December 17, 2013, 12:58:53 PM
I am not sure what that Harvard study is on about since all the largest Western Democracies have fewer guns and fewer murders than the US. It is probably not distinguishing between handguns, assault weapons and hunting weapons for one.

EDIT: Another point this study seems to ignore is that some of those countries, like France, have extremely right gun control hand in hand with high ownership.
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Excelsior John on December 17, 2013, 10:44:04 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25375064

When will America start to realise their attitude to guns and their gun culture needs tackling?
Ikr it is completeley idiotic that guns are legel all guns should be ilegel all guns do is KILL people. I blame the conservastupit rascists for these deaths
Title: Re: Yet another one
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 16, 2014, 04:45:29 AM
moar

http://abcnews.go.com/US/student-shotgun-shoot-students-roswell-mexico/story?id=21526542

Roswell?  How suspicious!