The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: TotesNotReptilian on May 31, 2016, 03:54:44 PM

Title: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on May 31, 2016, 03:54:44 PM
This post (https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/4lussx/stabilising_to_the_milky_way_shows_the_rotation/) was on the frontpage of reddit. It is a time lapse that has been stabilized to the Milky Way. (Click on the post to see it in the smoother gifv format. Source for the image is in one of the comments.)

(https://i.imgur.com/2rknAi6.gif]https://i.imgur.com/2rknAi6.gifv)

Notice the axis of rotation.

If the earth was flat, we would expect there to only be rotation around the vertical axis (like an airplane yawing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaw_%28rotation%29)). But this picture demonstrates rotation mostly around a horizontal axis (like an airplane rolling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics_%28fixed-wing_aircraft%29)).

Just some more evidence to add to the already massive pile.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 01, 2016, 12:30:00 AM
If the earth was flat, we would expect there to only be rotation around the vertical axis

Why?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 01, 2016, 02:13:25 AM
If the earth was flat, we would expect there to only be rotation around the vertical axis

Why?

That's how the model works, isn't it? Is there a flat earth model where the earth or stars don't rotate around the vertical axis?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 01, 2016, 09:09:43 AM
If the earth was flat, we would expect there to only be rotation around the vertical axis

Why?

That's how the model works, isn't it? Is there a flat earth model where the earth or stars don't rotate around the vertical axis?

What's wrong with the movement that can't occur on a Flat Earth?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet on June 01, 2016, 10:54:12 AM
If the earth was flat, we would expect there to only be rotation around the vertical axis

Why?

That's how the model works, isn't it? Is there a flat earth model where the earth or stars don't rotate around the vertical axis?

What's wrong with the movement that can't occur on a Flat Earth?
Stars rotate counter-clockwise around Polaris in the North, rotate clockwise around the South celestial pole in the South and rise from the East and sets to the West near the equator. It looks like what we would seen in a rolling airplane where North as the head, South as the tail and equator as the passenger windows. On a unipolar map of a flat Earth, stars only rotate around 1 central pole, anyone in the equator or the opposite pole would see stars rotating at a vertical axis only. It would look like looking up on an airplane yawing. Bipolar map? How can stars magically reappear in the East after they set in the West?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 01, 2016, 12:00:22 PM
Bipolar map? How can stars magically reappear in the East after they set in the West?

I'm not sure what you mean by this last sentence. The rest of your post is correct though.

What's wrong with the movement that can't occur on a Flat Earth?

1. The image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis. (Like a plane doing a barrel roll aileron roll)

2. The flat earth (or the stars/sun/moon) supposedly only rotates around a vertical axis. (Like a spinning top)

If you disagree with statement 2, please provide your alternative theory.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet on June 01, 2016, 02:37:09 PM
Bipolar map? How can stars magically reappear in the East after they set in the West?

I'm not sure what you mean by this last sentence. The rest of your post is correct though.
The bipolar map of flat Earth:
(http://wiki.tfes.org/images/c/c2/Altmap.png)
Could not explain how stars rise again in the Easter after setting in the West.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 01, 2016, 03:16:35 PM
1. The image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis. (Like a plane doing a barrel roll)

2. The flat earth (or the stars/sun/moon) supposedly only rotates around a vertical axis. (Like a spinning top)

If you disagree with statement 2, please provide your alternative theory.

Only a small portion of the sky can be seen at once, and if you look to the East the sun or a star can be seen to fall vertically into the horizon.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 01, 2016, 03:36:24 PM
1. The image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis. (Like a plane doing a barrel roll)

2. The flat earth (or the stars/sun/moon) supposedly only rotates around a vertical axis. (Like a spinning top)

If you disagree with statement 2, please provide your alternative theory.

Only a small portion of the sky can be seen at once, and if you look to the East the sun or a star can be seen to fall vertically into the horizon.

Correct on both counts. How are either of those things relevant though?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 01, 2016, 04:19:53 PM
1. The image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis. (Like a plane doing a barrel roll)

2. The flat earth (or the stars/sun/moon) supposedly only rotates around a vertical axis. (Like a spinning top)

If you disagree with statement 2, please provide your alternative theory.

Only a small portion of the sky can be seen at once, and if you look to the East the sun or a star can be seen to fall vertically into the horizon.

Correct on both counts. How are either of those things relevant though?

There is no reason for why a star cannot travel both horizontally or vertically in the sky.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 01, 2016, 04:28:53 PM
There is no reason for why a star cannot travel both horizontally or vertically in the sky.

You are still completely missing the point. Do you understand what an axis of rotation is? Do you understand the difference between roll and yaw?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 02, 2016, 04:29:33 PM
There is no reason for why a star cannot travel both horizontally or vertically in the sky.

You are still completely missing the point. Do you understand what an axis of rotation is? Do you understand the difference between roll and yaw?

What's impossible about either movement?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 02, 2016, 09:31:58 PM
What's impossible about either movement?

1. Flat earth models only include rotation around the vertical axis.
2. This image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis.

I am doing my best to explain this in the most simplistic way possible. Which of the above statements do you not agree with or understand? Be specific about why you do not agree with or understand it.

Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 03, 2016, 12:05:05 AM
What's impossible about either movement?

1. Flat earth models only include rotation around the vertical axis.
2. This image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis.

I am doing my best to explain this in the most simplistic way possible. Which of the above statements do you not agree with or understand? Be specific about why you do not agree with or understand it.

But not all of the sky can be seen at the same time, so depending on where you look the stars can be seen to be traveling vertically into the horizon.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 03, 2016, 02:13:00 AM
What's impossible about either movement?

1. Flat earth models only include rotation around the vertical axis.
2. This image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis.

I am doing my best to explain this in the most simplistic way possible. Which of the above statements do you not agree with or understand? Be specific about why you do not agree with or understand it.

But not all of the sky can be seen at the same time, so depending on where you look the stars can be seen to be traveling vertically into the horizon.

So you disagree with point number 2?

Let me make sure I understand your point: You are saying that this photo is not demonstrating rotation around a horizontal axis. Only a vertical axis. Is this correct?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: thatsnice on June 03, 2016, 06:17:24 PM
1. The image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis. (Like a plane doing a barrel roll)

cough cough, an aileron roll, cough cough
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 04, 2016, 06:51:52 PM
1. The image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis. (Like a plane doing a barrel roll)

cough cough, an aileron roll, cough cough

Indeed. How embarrassing.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 05, 2016, 09:43:49 AM
What's impossible about either movement?

1. Flat earth models only include rotation around the vertical axis.
2. This image demonstrates rotation around a horizontal axis.

I am doing my best to explain this in the most simplistic way possible. Which of the above statements do you not agree with or understand? Be specific about why you do not agree with or understand it.

But not all of the sky can be seen at the same time, so depending on where you look the stars can be seen to be traveling vertically into the horizon.

So you disagree with point number 2?

Let me make sure I understand your point: You are saying that this photo is not demonstrating rotation around a horizontal axis. Only a vertical axis. Is this correct?

If you look to the West you will see the sun generally set vertically into the horizon once it passes over. The same holds with the stars.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 05, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
If you look to the West you will see the sun generally set vertically into the horizon once it passes over. The same holds with the stars.

This is facing South. You can see the star Antares and the Scorpius constellation. I will elaborate further when I get a chance later.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 05, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Elaboration, as promised.

So you disagree with point number 2?

Let me make sure I understand your point: You are saying that this photo is not demonstrating rotation around a horizontal axis. Only a vertical axis. Is this correct?

If you look to the West you will see the sun generally set vertically into the horizon once it passes over. The same holds with the stars.

First of all, you didn't answer my question. It was a yes or no question.

To address your point: yes, if you look West, you will indeed see the sun setting roughly vertically into the horizon. As proven in a number of different threads, this is excellent evidence that the earth is not flat. But this is beside the point, so I won't belabor the point.

As stated, this picture is facing SOUTH.

1. In the flat earth model, the stars are rotating around a vertical axis centered at the North Pole (do you agree?). As a result:
2. In this model, when looking south, the stars are moving perpendicular to your line of vision. They should not be getting significantly further away or closer to you. They should not be moving vertically. They should be moving horizontally across the horizon from east to west.

This is not what happens in the gif. In the gif, the stars follow a small circular path centered around a point due south, somewhere slightly below the horizon. Imagine a pole sticking out from the camera towards the horizon, angled slightly downwards. Everything in the gif appears to rotate around this horizontal pole.

Now do you understand why this gif contradicts the flat earth model?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 05, 2016, 08:47:38 PM
1. In the flat earth model, the stars are rotating around a vertical axis centered at the North Pole (do you agree?).

I believe in the bi-polar model (http://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents) with two celestial systems located over the North and South Poles.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 06, 2016, 02:10:46 AM
1. In the flat earth model, the stars are rotating around a vertical axis centered at the North Pole (do you agree?).

I believe in the bi-polar model (http://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents) with two celestial systems located over the North and South Poles.

Finally, we are getting somewhere!

I admit that the above gif doesn't completely contradict the bi-polar model. It only contradicts the "Ice wall" model.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet on June 06, 2016, 06:18:31 AM
1. In the flat earth model, the stars are rotating around a vertical axis centered at the North Pole (do you agree?).

I believe in the bi-polar model (http://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents) with two celestial systems located over the North and South Poles.
Sure it partially fix the problem, but what is the mechanism of stars, planets, Moon and the Sun to disappear from one end and appear on the other?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 07, 2016, 06:44:21 PM
1. In the flat earth model, the stars are rotating around a vertical axis centered at the North Pole (do you agree?).

I believe in the bi-polar model (http://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents) with two celestial systems located over the North and South Poles.
Sure it partially fix the problem, but what is the mechanism of stars, planets, Moon and the Sun to disappear from one end and appear on the other?

Perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Gx1vD1CRE
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Rama Set on June 07, 2016, 07:27:44 PM
Tom citing an argument using classical perspective.  The pinnacle of hypocrisy.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on June 07, 2016, 09:42:31 PM
Tom citing an argument using classical perspective.  The pinnacle of hypocrisy.

I watched the video, I don't see any flaws in the logic.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: rabinoz on June 07, 2016, 11:55:42 PM
1. In the flat earth model, the stars are rotating around a vertical axis centered at the North Pole (do you agree?).

I believe in the bi-polar model (http://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents) with two celestial systems located over the North and South Poles.
Sure it partially fix the problem, but what is the mechanism of stars, planets, Moon and the Sun to disappear from one end and appear on the other?

Perspective

The Sun Sets just Fine on a Flat Earth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Gx1vD1CRE)

I have posted this before, but I will try to be a bit clearer this time.
Quote from: Rowbotham,  Earth no a Gobe, CHAPTER XIV
p. 202
"The range of the eye, or diameter of the field of vision, is 110°; consequently this is the largest angle under which an object can be seen. The range of vision is from 110° to 1°. . . . The smallest angle under which an object can be seen is upon an average, for different sights, the sixtieth part of a degree, or one minute in space; so that when an object is removed from the eye 3000 times its own diameter, it will only just be distinguishable; consequently the greatest distance at which we can behold an object like a shilling of an inch in diameter, is 3000 inches or 250 feet."

So, according to Rowbotham (and it does reasonably agree with modern figures) the resolution of the human eye is about 1 minute of arc, roughly 3,000 times the size of the object. This reference "WikiLectures, Resolution of human eye (http://www.wikilectures.eu/index.php/Resolution_of_human_eye) gives a similar figure.

The resolution of the eye indicates to us how close two objects can be before they merge and appear as one. Rowbotham uses this criterion in his "Ships on Horizon".

Now, the two objects of relevance here are the sun (very intense and at about 5,000 km high on the FE) and the horizon, a very large "object".

So according to Rowbotham's criterion these objects should be distinguishable to a distance of 5,000 x 3,000 km - you do the sums, they are too big for me.

Claiming that the "vanishing point" of the spacing between the extremely bright sun and horizon is exactly at the horizon (I believe it it given as about 10,000 miles, or 18,000 km, in that video) is a patently ridiculous claim.

The angular separation of the sun and horizon (according ro Rowbothom's criterion) would be near enough to (5,000/16,000) radians or 17.9°.

That video on perspective has a point, except to claim that the vanishing point is only 16,000 km (10,000 miles) away is simply incorrect!

In other words I claim that the Sun does not set a Flat Earth, and no amount of hand waving can make it so.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet on June 08, 2016, 12:03:06 AM
Sure it partially fix the problem, but what is the mechanism of stars, planets, Moon and the Sun to disappear from one end and appear on the other?

Perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Gx1vD1CRE
Irrelevant, i'm saying if a star/planet/Moon/Sun sets in the west as seen on Ecuador, how does it suppose to rise on the east as seen on Borneo?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2016, 12:45:09 AM
Tom citing an argument using classical perspective.  The pinnacle of hypocrisy.

I watched the video, I don't see any flaws in the logic.

I feel like the video is creating a false dilemma which stems from a misinterpretation of the geometric drawing he dismissed. That drawing is an accurate side view of the viewing angles of the sun, obviously not to scale. From the perspective of the observer the sun's path would follow the perspective lines from his photo too, I don't think anyone disputes this. Most everyone would agree that the sun would eventually converge with the horizon as well, but that is probably about as far as the agreement will go.

For his argument to have any sort of meaning it needs to be attached to real figures. How far would the sun have to travel to converge with the horizon?  At what altitude and based on what terrestrial distances would this model work?  Why doesn't the sun change apparent size through this entire process?  Most importantly, and this is not dealt with in the slightest in his argument, why does the sun disappear from the bottom up when objects converging on a vanishing point shrink in size until becoming merged with all else in the FOV at that depth of field?

So, sure his logic is alright, but he is not making the case he thinks he is.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on June 08, 2016, 05:20:38 PM
Tom citing an argument using classical perspective.  The pinnacle of hypocrisy.

I watched the video, I don't see any flaws in the logic.

I feel like the video is creating a false dilemma which stems from a misinterpretation of the geometric drawing he dismissed. That drawing is an accurate side view of the viewing angles of the sun, obviously not to scale. From the perspective of the observer the sun's path would follow the perspective lines from his photo too, I don't think anyone disputes this. Most everyone would agree that the sun would eventually converge with the horizon as well, but that is probably about as far as the agreement will go.

Are you saying that the path of the Sun and the ground on the Earth is constantly parallel? As if it was flat?

For his argument to have any sort of meaning it needs to be attached to real figures. How far would the sun have to travel to converge with the horizon?  At what altitude and based on what terrestrial distances would this model work?  Why doesn't the sun change apparent size through this entire process?  Most importantly, and this is not dealt with in the slightest in his argument, why does the sun disappear from the bottom up when objects converging on a vanishing point shrink in size until becoming merged with all else in the FOV at that depth of field?

So, sure his logic is alright, but he is not making the case he thinks he is.

The thing is, we've never seen an object that is as massive, and as bright as the Sun travel parallel to the ground, into the distance, to observe what it would or wouldn't look like. Why doesn't the Sun change change apparent size as we rotate away from it? Shouldn't it be observable? Why doesn't it change apparent size as we are closer according to our elliptical orbit?

Your assertion that objects shrink into obscurity due to perspective is not correct. A boat is the most obvious example of that not being the case. A boat doesn't shrink to obscurity, it supposedly goes under the horizon. Also, if the horizon is the Earth curving away from you, as most people seem to believe, shouldn't things in the distance progressively "rotate" away from you? As in a distant skyline, the building should no longer be level, up and down, but more so titled back? Shouldn't the ship we say is going "over" the horizon be skewed?

Now imagine this. You're looking at a ship halfway covered by the horizon... now imagine the distance between you and that ship is the radius of a circle (lets say 3 miles), now swing that radius to your left and right along sea level, forming a arc. If the ship was to your right or left, 3 miles away along that arc, would it be below a horizon? Why would it or wouldn't it be?
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2016, 07:25:39 PM

I feel like the video is creating a false dilemma which stems from a misinterpretation of the geometric drawing he dismissed. That drawing is an accurate side view of the viewing angles of the sun, obviously not to scale. From the perspective of the observer the sun's path would follow the perspective lines from his photo too, I don't think anyone disputes this. Most everyone would agree that the sun would eventually converge with the horizon as well, but that is probably about as far as the agreement will go.

Are you saying that the path of the Sun and the ground on the Earth is constantly parallel? As if it was flat?[/quote]

I am saying that this is the case in almost every FE model I have encountered.

Quote
For his argument to have any sort of meaning it needs to be attached to real figures. How far would the sun have to travel to converge with the horizon?  At what altitude and based on what terrestrial distances would this model work?  Why doesn't the sun change apparent size through this entire process?  Most importantly, and this is not dealt with in the slightest in his argument, why does the sun disappear from the bottom up when objects converging on a vanishing point shrink in size until becoming merged with all else in the FOV at that depth of field?

So, sure his logic is alright, but he is not making the case he thinks he is.

The thing is, we've never seen an object that is as massive, and as bright as the Sun travel parallel to the ground, into the distance, to observe what it would or wouldn't look like. Why doesn't the Sun change change apparent size as we rotate away from it? Shouldn't it be observable? Why doesn't it change apparent size as we are closer according to our elliptical orbit?

It does change apparent size. http://webpages.charter.net/darksky25/Astronomy/Articles/sun/sunindex.html

Quote
Your assertion that objects shrink into obscurity due to perspective is not correct. A boat is the most obvious example of that not being the case. A boat doesn't shrink to obscurity, it supposedly goes under the horizon.

Because it has not receded far enough to vanish; the vanishing point is deeper in your FOV than the horizon.

Quote
Also, if the horizon is the Earth curving away from you, as most people seem to believe, shouldn't things in the distance progressively "rotate" away from you? As in a distant skyline, the building should no longer be level, up and down, but more so titled back? Shouldn't the ship we say is going "over" the horizon be skewed?

How do you know you are not observing the skyline listing?  How much should it be listing?

Quote
Now imagine this. You're looking at a ship halfway covered by the horizon... now imagine the distance between you and that ship is the radius of a circle (lets say 3 miles), now swing that radius to your left and right along sea level, forming a arc. If the ship was to your right or left, 3 miles away along that arc, would it be below a horizon? Why would it or wouldn't it be?

Yes, the horizon, barring any optical or atmospheric effects should be the same distance from you.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: D0p3 on June 10, 2016, 01:06:07 AM
I have absolutely no clue on what you are talking about. The stars and everything else make no sense to me, but.... if I can see something over 100 miles away which is supposed to be out of my line of sight then I start to ask questions, how the hell on earth can i see it???? Switch Lore Lore Lore from vertical to horizontal makes 666, and what in the dictionary does horizontal mean?? Loving all my "Brothers". Peace.
Title: Re: "Stabilising to the Milky Way shows the rotation of the earth" (gifv)
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on June 10, 2016, 05:47:50 AM
I have absolutely no clue on what you are talking about. The stars and everything else make no sense to me, but.... if I can see something over 100 miles away which is supposed to be out of my line of sight then I start to ask questions, how the hell on earth can i see it???? Switch Lore Lore Lore from vertical to horizontal makes 666, and what in the dictionary does horizontal mean?? Loving all my "Brothers". Peace.

If you have no clue what a thread is talking about, then it is probably best to start a new thread with your question/concern instead of making an off topic comment. Also, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.