Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2018, 11:34:32 AM »
You apparently misunderstand the content of these theories.  Kepler's laws can be derived from Newton's laws, they are essentially equivalent.  Any calculation you wish to produce with either Newton's or Kepler's laws can be produced with GR.  GR is the only theory that you need request.  If you go back through the forum history, you will see that I provided with documentation on a model of the solar system that used GR, so perhaps go have a look at that and then come back and discuss?
Maybe you can actually produce what you state you have and then come back and discuss.

If GR was all there was to it, then Newton and Kepler go bye-bye...

Did you see anyone waving with a tear in their eye?
You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.
Newtons law of gravity works.
Einsteins GR generalized Newtons law with his theory on Special Relativity (spacetime), providing answers to issues observed while only using Newtons law of gravity.

We still do not need GR to simulate our solar system, but it easily can and is way more complicated to implement for something which doesn't really change the outcome in our small solar system.

Let me give a similar example:
When we throw objects, if we remove the friction of air, we generally calculate the trajectory via a parabola and this works fine.
However when we throw the ball, the ball actually follows an orbital path, which just so happens to intersect the earth because we didn't throw it very far.
Correctly, we should use math for an orbital path, but we use math for a parabola because there is only a minimal difference which is basically undetectable, and calculating a parabola is way easier than calculating an orbit.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 11:38:32 AM by SphericalEarther »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2018, 12:08:56 PM »
You apparently misunderstand the content of these theories.  Kepler's laws can be derived from Newton's laws, they are essentially equivalent.  Any calculation you wish to produce with either Newton's or Kepler's laws can be produced with GR.  GR is the only theory that you need request.  If you go back through the forum history, you will see that I provided with documentation on a model of the solar system that used GR, so perhaps go have a look at that and then come back and discuss?
Maybe you can actually produce what you state you have and then come back and discuss.

Why should I do the same thing for you twice because you don’t want to look?

Quote
If GR was all there was to it, then Newton and Kepler go bye-bye...

Did you see anyone waving with a tear in their eye?

No, again you are not displaying even basic levels of knowledge. Kepler and Newton are much easier to use and for most problems is sufficient

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2018, 03:37:45 PM »
You apparently misunderstand the content of these theories.  Kepler's laws can be derived from Newton's laws, they are essentially equivalent.  Any calculation you wish to produce with either Newton's or Kepler's laws can be produced with GR.  GR is the only theory that you need request.  If you go back through the forum history, you will see that I provided with documentation on a model of the solar system that used GR, so perhaps go have a look at that and then come back and discuss?
Maybe you can actually produce what you state you have and then come back and discuss.
Why should I do the same thing for you twice because you don’t want to look?
The record is very clear.

You produced nothing at all.
No, again you are not displaying even basic levels of knowledge. Kepler and Newton are much easier to use and for most problems is sufficient
LOL!

Kepler and Newton needed Einstein (supposedly) to solve the issues with Mercury (in reality, there is no issue with Mercury of course as heliocentricity is an outright lie).
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 12:58:00 PM by totallackey »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2018, 04:44:58 PM »
Why should I do the same thing for you twice because you don’t want to look?
The record is very clear.

You produced nothing at all. [/quote]

You ignoring something does not make it not exist.

Quote
LOL!

Kepler and Newton needed Einstein to solve the issues with Mercury.

Nothing I said disagrees with this.  Did you understand what I said?  It doesn't seem like it.

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2018, 08:43:32 PM »
Yet NASA has a secret working model of the Solar System, the heliocentric solution to the n-body problems, which can simulate all physical laws of the Solar System, which they are keeping privately to themselves?

pretty much everything you say in this post is dead wrong.  also no one is keeping secret models of the solar system.  my first post's last link shows you how to obtain the source code for vosp87 and run it yourself.

VOPS may produce some heliocentric interpretations. But what evidence is there to suggest that they are using those heliocentric concepts to predict the position of bodies in the sky?

There needs to be validation. How do you know that any prediction based on VOPS is done so based on heliocentric coordinates, rather than the geocentric (as seen from the earth) patterns the VOPS application is making those heliocentric coordinates from?

This program seems only good enough to tell us a few things about how a few things should be under the Heliocentric System, which astronomers then proceed to publish as fact about that model.

The numerous n-body problems in celestial mechanics shows that this application cannot be predicting future events based on the motions of a heliocentric system.

this is all completely wrong.  i wish you would bother to read the material i post instead of just making up your own version of things to critique.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2018, 09:11:34 PM »
Gary, firstly, the full source code isn't found on that website you linked. When searching google, I found the following:

http://www.freevbcode.com/ShowCode.asp?ID=464

Quote
VSOP87 Functions used to Compute Planetary Positions (1.15 MB)

These functions are a VB version of the complete VSOP87 planetary theory designed to be used to in a program to compute the heliocentric ecliptic longitude, latitude and distance of the planets Mercury to Neptune over a period of several thousands of years to about 1 arcsecond of precision. They are intended for use by programmers desiring to make their own astronomical computations programs.

Can it do anything more than compute the presumed heliocentric elements?

I downloaded it and read the following from the about page:

Quote
These Visual BASIC program modules form a nucleus around which to build a
sophisticated planetary ephemeris program.

They compose the essential subroutines to compute the heliocentric, ecliptical
coordinates, L, B and R according to the full VSOP87 theory.

Nothing about running it into the future and then converting to positions in the sky.

VSOP is based on Astronomical Algorithms. I discussed this book in the NOAA Solar Calculator page on the wiki. We know that Astronomical Algorithms is calculating R, the AU, for the planets under the heliocentric model, and some other elements, but then it stops there. The NOAA Solar Calculator Excel Worksheet, that is based on the same Astronomical Algorithms book, shows that the "Sun Rad Vector (AUs)," which is the distance between the the Earth and the Sun and the same as R, doesn't do anything, and is only an output value. It can be deleted from the worksheet entirely and the computations still work -- truly a demonstration of what Astronomical Algorithms is all about.

Where is the part about converting the heliocentric model to what is seen in the sky and accuracy of planet positions?

If the above software package is based on the complete VSOP theory, as it claims to be, then neither the description or about page shows that VSOP does anything more than calculate what the presumed heliocentric elements are.

I have also read that VSOP isn't even really converting to a real heliocentric model, but I will put that aside for now and come back to it later.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 10:54:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2018, 11:40:32 PM »
Can it do anything more than compute the presumed heliocentric elements?

what? whether or not it can computer the heliocentric coordinates is the thing we're arguing about.  your argument is that astronomers do not use a physical model of the planets to make predictions.  my argument is that vsop87 is exactly one such model.  it is a model of the solar system that predicts the positions of the planets in 3d space.  it's not merely a list of patterns.  the user inputs a time (eg i want to know where mars is in the solar system on april 20th, 2069), and vsop87 outputs heliocentric coordinates.

here's another astronomy site that gives a step-by-step tutorial on how to use vsop87: https://www.caglow.com/info/compute/vsop87
Quote
VSOP87 provides a method for computing the positions of the 8 planets (and the Sun) efficiently and accurately without the major headaches that astronomers from past centuries had to deal with.
...
It consists of a large number of periodic terms that are then added up together in a special way to produce the 3-dimensional heliocentric coordinates of any planet at any moment in time for thousands of years into the future and the past. These coordinates can then be converted through a few transformations into geocentric coordinates which can be used to show their position as seen from Earth.
...
The results of VSOP87C above are heliocentric coordinates, centered on the Sun. Since none of us actually live on the Sun, it might be more useful to obtain geocentric coordinates, centered on the Earth. Using rectangular coordinates, a simple transformation is all that is needed to convert.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2018, 06:21:05 AM »
I am writing an article about VSOP. I have found some further information on how it works and am putting together an analysis.

I looked at your "it uses kepler" reference and found that the article you quoted is saying that the authors are trying to use kepler equations based on the data from VSOP to do something. It is not saying that VSOP is using kepler equations.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?db_key=AST&bibcode=1988A%26A...202..309B&letter=.&classic=YES&defaultprint=YES&whole_paper=YES&page=309&epage=309&send=Send+PDF&filetype=.pdf

p. 311

Quote
4. The solutions we are going to present in this paragraph have been built from VSOP87
....

4.1 VSOP87A solution

This solution is built for the bodies given in Table 1. It is represented with heliocentric rectangular variable X, Y, Z

We must first solve Kepler's equations in order to...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 06:22:47 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2018, 06:39:38 AM »
It occurs to me that the more we point out how you are misinterpreting the RE model, the more you add the misinformation to the wiki.

Could explaining things actually be making the problem worse instead of better?

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2018, 07:10:44 AM »
Can it do anything more than compute the presumed heliocentric elements?

What else would it need to do?

If it computes the expected position of, say Mercury or Venus some 5 years 47 days in advance, and come that 47th day, you look up, and the predicted position of Mercury turns out to be its actual position, what does that tell you?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2018, 10:46:41 AM »
You ignoring something does not make it not exist.
There is no ignoring on my part.

You produced nothing of the sort and that is the truth.

Kepler and Newton are much easier to use and for most problems is sufficient
Kepler and Newton are insufficient to explain Mercury.

So when it comes to accurate modeling of what heliocentrists state is "easy," then they are insufficient.

So yeah, you did write something that is in total disagreement.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 03:05:04 PM by totallackey »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2018, 11:01:16 AM »
You ignoring something does not make it not exist.
There is no ignoring on my part.

You produced nothing of the sort and that is the truth.

Nothing I said disagrees with this.  Did you understand what I said?  It doesn't seem like it.
Kepler and Newton are much easier to use and for most problems is sufficient
Kepler an Newton are insufficient to explain Mercury.

So when it comes to accurate modeling of what heliocentrists state is "easy," then they are insufficient.

So yeah, you did write something that is in total disagreement.
[/quote]

Sorry you don’t know what “for most problems” implies.

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2018, 11:10:19 AM »
Sorry you don’t know what “for most problems” implies.
I most certainly know what it means in this case.

There is no computer model utilizing the math from Newton, Kepler, and Einstein, allowing a CGI representation of the supposed solar system.

The reason for this is it cannot be done, much like an accurate mathematical CGI representation of 9/11 events.

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2018, 11:53:25 AM »
Sorry you don’t know what “for most problems” implies.
I most certainly know what it means in this case.

Then why are you disputing that Kepler and Newton are sufficient for most problems?  The perihelion of mercury was the only phenomenon it couldn’t model in the solar system.

Quote
There is no computer model utilizing the math from Newton, Kepler, and Einstein, allowing a CGI representation of the supposed solar system.

It’s such a weird thing to say when Gary Green has been discussing just such a model interspersed with our little conversation.

Quote
The reason for this is it cannot be done, much like an accurate mathematical CGI representation of 9/11 events.

9/11 is a whole other topic. Let’s stick with Schpayzze.

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2018, 01:06:19 PM »
Then why are you disputing that Kepler and Newton are sufficient for most problems?  The perihelion of mercury was the only phenomenon it couldn’t model in the solar system.
LOL!

Probably because Kepler and Newton are not sufficient at all.

I mean, they are for myth lovers but no one else.

Quote
There is no computer model utilizing the math from Newton, Kepler, and Einstein, allowing a CGI representation of the supposed solar system.
It’s such a weird thing to say when Gary Green has been discussing just such a model interspersed with our little conversation.
The fact you use the word "say," when it comes to writing explains quite a bit. You have an inability to distinguish between forms of communication, let alone understand.

The fact someone writes about something does not mean it exists and it appears what garygreen has presented is just another instance in a long line of myths.
9/11 is a whole other topic. Let’s stick with Schpayzze.
I can understand why you want the whole topic and relevant comparisons between the two issues placed in the gutter.

You are demonstrably in love with falsehoods.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 03:06:52 PM by totallackey »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2018, 01:38:32 PM »
I am writing an article about VSOP. I have found some further information on how it works and am putting together an analysis.

I looked at your "it uses kepler" reference and found that the article you quoted is saying that the authors are trying to use kepler equations based on the data from VSOP to do something. It is not saying that VSOP is using kepler equations.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?db_key=AST&bibcode=1988A%26A...202..309B&letter=.&classic=YES&defaultprint=YES&whole_paper=YES&page=309&epage=309&send=Send+PDF&filetype=.pdf

p. 311

Quote
4. The solutions we are going to present in this paragraph have been built from VSOP87
....

4.1 VSOP87A solution

This solution is built for the bodies given in Table 1. It is represented with heliocentric rectangular variable X, Y, Z

We must first solve Kepler's equations in order to...

nice ellipses.  the quote is "We must first solve Kepler's equation in order to get the expressions of the variables X, Y, Z." 

as in "[VSOP87a] is represented with heliocentric rectangular variables X, Y, Z...We must first solve Kepler's equation in order to get the expressions of the variables X, Y, Z."  i dunno how the literature could be any more clear on this point.  they are saying that vsop87a outputs heliocentric rectangular coordinates for the positions of the planets.  these coordinates are given by solving kepler's laws.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2018, 02:19:12 PM »
I am writing an article about VSOP. I have found some further information on how it works and am putting together an analysis.

I looked at your "it uses kepler" reference and found that the article you quoted is saying that the authors are trying to use kepler equations based on the data from VSOP to do something. It is not saying that VSOP is using kepler equations.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?db_key=AST&bibcode=1988A%26A...202..309B&letter=.&classic=YES&defaultprint=YES&whole_paper=YES&page=309&epage=309&send=Send+PDF&filetype=.pdf

p. 311

Quote
4. The solutions we are going to present in this paragraph have been built from VSOP87
....

4.1 VSOP87A solution

This solution is built for the bodies given in Table 1. It is represented with heliocentric rectangular variable X, Y, Z

We must first solve Kepler's equations in order to...

nice ellipses.  the quote is "We must first solve Kepler's equation in order to get the expressions of the variables X, Y, Z." 

as in "[VSOP87a] is represented with heliocentric rectangular variables X, Y, Z...We must first solve Kepler's equation in order to get the expressions of the variables X, Y, Z."  i dunno how the literature could be any more clear on this point.  they are saying that vsop87a outputs heliocentric rectangular coordinates for the positions of the planets.  these coordinates are given by solving kepler's laws.

"The solutions we are going to present ... have been built from VSOP87"

Its not a description on how VSOP was programmed. The article is about taking data from VSOP and trying to manipulate it.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:06:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2018, 07:16:26 PM »
"The solutions we are going to present ... have been built from VSOP87"

Its not a description on how VSOP was programmed. The article is about taking data from VSOP and trying to manipulate it.

sort of, but not really.  read the abstract and section 3.  "solutions" means "the positions of the planets at a given time." 

vsop87 is a model of the solar system using only the elliptic parameters of each planetary orbit (semi-major axis, eccentricity, inclination, etc.).  but just knowing elliptic parameters isn't useful.  we want to know physical coordinates of the planets at a given time.  that's what vsop87a, vsop87b, etc, are for.  they're just outputting the positions of the planets in different coordinate/reference systems.

look at this table:


vsop87 describes each orbit in terms of the shape of the orbit (elliptic parameters).  vsop87a-e describe the positions of the planets in terms of different coordinate and reference systems (eg rectangular vs spherical).

all of these inputs and outputs are in terms of real, physical quantities: the shape of the orbit, the distance from the sun or barycenter, the mass of the object, etc.  i cannot find anything in these documents that describes the kind of pattern-counting that you say astronomy relies upon.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2018, 01:36:17 AM »
I will come back to the VSOP program in a bit. I have added three new sections to the article:

    - The Zeroth Step
    - Very Sensitive Solutions
    - Official Explanation: Divine Intervention

https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Mechanics_Cannot_Predict_The_Solar_System#The_Zeroth_Step

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2018, 01:46:50 AM »
Your writing is either incompetently misinterpreting the material you cite or painfully dishonest, Tom. You write that they found over 16,000,000 solutions to the 3-body problem and cherry-pick that a few thousand are exotic. And why is Newton’s personal belief in divinity at all relevant other than to serve your editorial mission? Is your argument so weak that you can’t make it cohesive without fallacies and dishonesty?