Offline RJDO

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Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« on: December 06, 2017, 01:14:34 PM »
Just curious. Why doesn't the Flat Earth Society and/or others such as the Flat Earth International Conference either support, sponsor or conduct their own proof using High Altitude Balloons with Cameras? Can't they launch one? Can't they inspect all the gear (esp. the camera) for accuracy, and that it has not been tampered with by NASA or someone?

Why not? Schools do this really easy, but to the Flat Earth supporters, it is faked, or the camera messed with the image. Do one yourself. If there was a conference, they had to make enough in profits to support this endeavor. In fact I know they made enough to support this. Or, why not start a kickstarter? Something to shut us Round Earth proponents up. This would be very easy to do, and relatively cheap.

My guess is you don't, because you don't want the answer it may provide. I think that this, like other things, it is easier to stay ignorant, than to try. You could shock the entire world with this. Heck, you could probably stream the event live, and get your message out to the world. Instead of using pseudo-science to try and explain things, you can seriously end the debate with this. If the balloon gets up there and shows the world flat, with no curve to the earth,...than this could seriously change science forever. Just one little balloon and camera could stop us round-earthers from hitting you with science.   

Or, you can rely on some guy in California to launch himself in a homemade rocket and kill himself in support of this cause. Either way works.


devils advocate

Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 01:33:51 PM »
Just curious. Why doesn't the Flat Earth Society and/or others such as the Flat Earth International Conference either support, sponsor or conduct their own proof using High Altitude Balloons with Cameras? Can't they launch one?

Watcha RJDO

I was wondering about doing this myself and then I got to thinking is it as easy as that?

I would HOPE that if one wanted to launch a balloon really high it should be cleared by air traffic control or other agencies as I imagine if an Airbus took a balloon to the engine it would make for a bad day for all onboard?

Also what about issues such as retrieving the camera? What with winds etc the thing could travel miles and how would you go about tracking it? Or do you not get the balloon down and just rely on getting the footage via live feed? If so how do you set up live feed so high, does internet signal work?

Leading on from that I would guess there must be restrictions based on the uncertainty of where it would land (if it would) as again if it came down on a busy motorway it could cause carnage?

Once I started thinking about all these issues it seemed to just grow in complexity and expense.

How would you go about doing it?

 :)

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 02:09:06 PM »
Just curious. Why doesn't the Flat Earth Society and/or others such as the Flat Earth International Conference either support, sponsor or conduct their own proof using High Altitude Balloons with Cameras? Can't they launch one?

Watcha RJDO

I was wondering about doing this myself and then I got to thinking is it as easy as that?

I would HOPE that if one wanted to launch a balloon really high it should be cleared by air traffic control or other agencies as I imagine if an Airbus took a balloon to the engine it would make for a bad day for all onboard?

Also what about issues such as retrieving the camera? What with winds etc the thing could travel miles and how would you go about tracking it? Or do you not get the balloon down and just rely on getting the footage via live feed? If so how do you set up live feed so high, does internet signal work?

Leading on from that I would guess there must be restrictions based on the uncertainty of where it would land (if it would) as again if it came down on a busy motorway it could cause carnage?

Once I started thinking about all these issues it seemed to just grow in complexity and expense.

How would you go about doing it?

 :)

Cost would be around $1000 USD. There are kits online. This website could pool resources and get it done. I'm sure plenty of the RE members would also contribute.
http://www.nearspaceballooning.com/

I highly doubt that many of these FEers actually want to do this since it would put them in the spot of not being able to cry fake.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline Roger G

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 02:30:06 PM »
The problem is not one of finance in my opinion. Given that the numbers of so called flat earth believers are perhaps in the low thousands, if each gave $20 from say 10,000 contributors, that would get $200K to get the project under way. As there have been some not very bright celebrities that have also come out as FEs, they should be able to double the total without denting their bank balances, so half a million dollars should finance a baloon flight to the upper atmosphere and an aeroplane flight to cross the icewall and take photos.

It would seem that there would need to be people involved that have technical knowledge in a number of relevant areas. That knowledge would come from having studied and build up a background understanding of the world around them and the technical areas that they are involved in. There do not appear to be any such people who are genuinely flat earth believers, so non believers would have to be contracted in to supply the expertise. As they would be using technical knowledge based on mathematics and science of a spherical earth to guide the project, how would that be acceptable to FEs? Of course just the aeroplane flight across the icewall would need to involve pilots, none of whom could possibly come from the world of FEs and with no working map how would navigation be carried out?

We then have yet another problem with the 'Cry Wolf' syndrome. All FEs, have been convinced or convinced themselves that all photographs showing evidence of a spherical earth in anyway whatsoever have been faked or doctored and shouted fake at all such RE evidence, so how could any photographs or video presented as evidence of a flat earth be taken seriously by their own members let alone REs.

From my observations of the writings and comments of FEs, apart from the trolls and intellectual con men, the vast majority would seem to be those who have failed in the education system, maybe learning difficulties, or couldn't care less attitudes or perhaps general laziness. They are either still very young and feel that they want to rebel against everything that they don't understand, or as they got older have failed to make progress in their lives whilst others around them have made a success of theirs. In fact just the sort of disfunctional group that love being told that education is brain washing and science is a conspiracy of the rich to fool them. Yet more reasons to believe that there is no point in getting an education when there are lots of others just like them to help 'fight the system' and give them a group to belong to. So are these people going to get out of bed in the morning, off of their playstations and computers and build flat earth research projects? I DON'T THINK SO!

It's quite disturbing that the internet and sites like this are encouraging vulnerable young people in particular to distrust education and science and believe trickery and pseudo science because it's easier than real life. It's much easier than working hard at their education to gain a background of knowledge to enable them to make their own observations and investigate properly. Perhaps they should ask themselves why NOBODY who has become a professional pilot, navigator, mathematician, astronomer, mechanical engineer, sailor, surveyor etc. etc. is a flat earth believer.

Roger


Offline RJDO

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 02:38:32 PM »
Just curious. Why doesn't the Flat Earth Society and/or others such as the Flat Earth International Conference either support, sponsor or conduct their own proof using High Altitude Balloons with Cameras? Can't they launch one?

Watcha RJDO

I was wondering about doing this myself and then I got to thinking is it as easy as that?

I would HOPE that if one wanted to launch a balloon really high it should be cleared by air traffic control or other agencies as I imagine if an Airbus took a balloon to the engine it would make for a bad day for all onboard?

Also what about issues such as retrieving the camera? What with winds etc the thing could travel miles and how would you go about tracking it? Or do you not get the balloon down and just rely on getting the footage via live feed? If so how do you set up live feed so high, does internet signal work?

Leading on from that I would guess there must be restrictions based on the uncertainty of where it would land (if it would) as again if it came down on a busy motorway it could cause carnage?

Once I started thinking about all these issues it seemed to just grow in complexity and expense.

How would you go about doing it?

 :)

https://www.balloonchallenge.org/tutorials

Here is a great link to how to even conduct the experiment.

Largest hurdle for this is determining the "trusted agent" to act on behalf of Flat Earthers to conduct this.  But, as I stated, you have no problem supporting some guy launching himself in a homemade rocket, so finding a trusted agent shouldn't be too hard. Seriously, why support a guy who has invested $20,000.00+ in this rocket, who only recently became a Flat Earth supporter, when you can do this experiment for about $1000.00 and no one can be hurt.

Offline RJDO

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 03:05:08 PM »
I am sure that there must be support to conduct this experiment with statements like this on TFES.

"Though we live in a world fraught with Fake News, occasionally a really good story comes across our desks here at The Flat Earth Society. We believe in a tactile approach to learning and understanding, one that forces individuals to break out of the constraints placed upon them by society and achieve new heights." Pongo. (2017, Nov 24). Flat-Earth Theory Rockets Forward. Retrieved from https://www.tfes.org/


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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 03:55:16 PM »
High altitude balloon sounds simple and cheap enough to me. But if it's a test, then before it's done, you have to make a falsifiable hypothesis. You aren't allowed to stay in Zetetic Method mode forever, or you never converge on a single hypothesis by rejecting the false ones.

In other words, it ideally can't be just a demo. It has to be done by an honest scientist who is committed to accepting the answer to an honest question.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:56:58 PM by Tom Haws »
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Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

Offline RJDO

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 04:12:25 PM »
High altitude balloon sounds simple and cheap enough to me. But if it's a test, then before it's done, you have to make a falsifiable hypothesis. You aren't allowed to stay in Zetetic Method mode forever, or you never converge on a single hypothesis by rejecting the false ones.

In other words, it ideally can't be just a demo. It has to be done by an honest scientist who is committed to accepting the answer to an honest question.

Shouldn't there be only two hypothesis that can be tested. Either:

Balloon will reach a height of 100,000 feet which will show that the Earth does not have a curvature at this altitude on the visible horizon due to the Earth being flat.

Horizon curve should be (Flat Earth) 0.0 rad

or

Balloon will reach a height of 100,000 feet which will show that the Earth does have a curvature on the visible horizon at this altitude due to the Earth being a sphere. (Link for the math to use for experiment here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon)

Horizon curve should be (Round Earth) .098 rad

I am not sure if you need more than that for hypothesis for this experiment. Either is will be a flat horizon or a curved horizon.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 04:57:29 PM by RJDO »

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 04:34:22 PM »
Shouldn't there be only two hypothesis that can be tested. Either:

It depends on the method you are using. I just learned about the Zetetic Method this week thanks to this forum. The Zetetic Method requires only a question. You can wait until after your experiment(s) to form hypothesis(es). The Scientific Method, in contrast, requires a single hypothesis, often most usefully a null hypothesis (in other words, the opposite of what you want to prove). You choose your hypothesis and then intentionally run your experiment to disprove it.

For example:

My hypothesis (a null hypothesis) is that the reason I cannot see a ship's beacon from my beach blanket is that there is (vertically uniform) fog preventing me from seeing it. If I go upstairs, I still will not be able to see it.

My experiment is to go upstairs. It would disprove my hypothesis if I were able to see the ship's beacon.

SCENARIO 1
I go upstairs. I do not see the beacon.

Therefore I have not disproved my hypothesis. Nor have I proved it. Maybe the beacon was not functioning. Maybe the upstairs is not high enough. Maybe maybe maybe. I have not proved anything.

SCENARIO 2
I go upstairs. I do see the beacon.

Therefore I have disproved my hypothesis. No vertically uniform fog was preventing me from seeing the beacon.
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 04:36:46 PM »
Sounds like a great exercise. I think the key would be to have knowledgeable observers from both sides present at launch/retrieval. Not meaning knowledgeable in terms of FE/RE, but in terms of the equipment being used. For example:
Validate that camera memory cards are empty before flight.
Validate memory card contents and preserve multiple copies post flight.
Use a grid to calibrate camera before/after to remove doubt about "fisheye" lens effects.
Complete video of launch/retrieval process.
Etc.
With all of above witnessed by both sides.

Sounds good, but I doubt that it will ever happen.

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 06:00:48 PM »
Even with all those controls, you would have to state a hypothesis clearly. Otherwise your experiment is not repeatable and verifiable. And you have nothing that is falsifiable. The Scientific Method requires falsifiability and repeatability.

In my example above, if it's not crystal clear how to repeat the experiment to see the beacon from upstairs, then the (vertically uniform) fog hypothesis is not considered disproved.

This illustrates factors that are missing from some of the suggested Flat Earth experiments on this site. a) no null hypothesis b) no clear and accessible repeatability. I would like to see the Flat Earth society focus better on designing experiments well before performing them.
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

Offline RJDO

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 06:10:44 PM »
Even with all those controls, you would have to state a hypothesis clearly. Otherwise your experiment is not repeatable and verifiable. And you have nothing that is falsifiable. The Scientific Method requires falsifiability and repeatability.

In my example above, if it's not crystal clear how to repeat the experiment to see the beacon from upstairs, then the (vertically uniform) fog hypothesis is not considered disproved.

This illustrates factors that are missing from some of the suggested Flat Earth experiments on this site. a) no null hypothesis b) no clear and accessible repeatability. I would like to see the Flat Earth society focus better on designing experiments well before performing them.

I mentioned what I would assume to be the hypothesis as you asked. Either it is or is not. It is repeatable, and it is verifiable. I do not want to get away from the fact that this is able to be done. You can call it what you want, but this will either prove or disprove a theory. Obliviously, the math would need to be there, the expectations, and conclusions. The end result is that we would expect not to see a curved horizon once the balloon reached the altitude. Either this is proved or disproved, and we can move from there.

I wish I personally had the money to fund them.  To see the results first hand. They can do all the pi=4 math they want, and all the expectations they need, but it will not change the result. My main concern, is that it must be completed by a FE'er, and everything is approved by them prior to results.

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 06:16:33 PM »
OK. I have a question about your hypothesis, and specifically about "curved horizon". Isn't the horizon always curved? As I stand throughout my life, isn't there a circular horizon all around me at X (very, very small) degrees below level? If I rise higher, isn't there still a circular horizon all around me at X (not quite as small) degrees below level? If I go into orbit or to Betelgeuse, isn't the earth horizon still a circle around the earth center?

What exactly is the hypothesis to be disproved then?
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

Offline RJDO

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 06:23:06 PM »
OK. I have a question about your hypothesis, and specifically about "curved horizon". Isn't the horizon always curved? As I stand throughout my life, isn't there a circular horizon all around me at X (very, very small) degrees below level? If I rise higher, isn't there still a circular horizon all around me at X (not quite as small) degrees below level? If I go into orbit or to Betelgeuse, isn't the earth horizon still a circle around the earth center?

What exactly is the hypothesis to be disproved then?

Good Questions. I believe the point is to prove that at 100,000 feet, there is a visible curvature to the horizon consistent with a spherical earth. If the earth was flat, there would be 0 curve as seen at that height at any point (on the horizon) from the lens of the camera.

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 02:49:28 AM »
Good Questions. I believe the point is to prove that at 100,000 feet, there is a visible curvature to the horizon consistent with a spherical earth. If the earth was flat, there would be 0 curve as seen at that height at any point (on the horizon) from the lens of the camera.
I am starting to get more clarity on some things thanks to this forum. One is the mathematical description of perspective. The other is this idea of a high balloon or rocket. I really don't think a high balloon will prove anything that can't be proven by the crow's nest of a ship. And I increasingly and newly see the horizon as always curved (just look downward right now and it will be curved 360 degrees around you). If we all want to agree, we only need to work together on designing a repeatable group experiment to run as easily as climbing a seaside hill or a ship's mast. In fact, I feel an invitation impending.

As for a flat earth's curve, it would depend on the shape of the flat earth. On a flat earth, depending on atmospheric visibility and lighting, you would see the shape of the earth as soon as you cleared 6 miles up (the height of Everest) plus enough to see over Everest to the edge of the earth. Until the edge of the earth began to be apparent, you would see distant blue mountains (the ones you would see on any clear day) all around you.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:54:21 AM by Tom Haws »
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

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Offline OrigamiBoy

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 01:19:56 PM »
To be honest, It does not really matter if they fly a big balloon up and see earth curvature, they would just claim it was faked like they do everything else.
These are very desperate people - trying SO hard to maintain this one theory that they are prepared to shut their minds to the hundreds of crazy things they have to say to defend it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 07:25:55 PM »
Please read the Wiki. We do accept what is seen by amateur high altitude balloonists: https://wiki.tfes.org/High_Altitude_Photographs

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Offline OrigamiBoy

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 07:46:23 PM »
Please read the Wiki. We do accept what is seen by amateur high altitude balloonists: https://wiki.tfes.org/High_Altitude_Photographs


I see what you are saying, but you still have no way of proving why we cannot see all of the earth surface at one time when we are this far up, see the picture above. I will not go into detail about this, if you want to learn more, watch vsauses video:

These are very desperate people - trying SO hard to maintain this one theory that they are prepared to shut their minds to the hundreds of crazy things they have to say to defend it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 08:27:40 PM »
I see what you are saying, but you still have no way of proving why we cannot see all of the earth surface at one time when we are this far up, see the picture above.

Your picture appears to come from NASA. What does that have to do with our acceptance of what amateur high altitude balloonists see?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 08:29:16 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline mtnman

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Re: Flat Earth Proof??? Why Not!
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 08:36:15 PM »
Please read the Wiki. We do accept what is seen by amateur high altitude balloonists
Glad to hear that Tom. I created a thread on that subject (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7422.msg130507). What I found interesting was that early in the two hour amateur high altitude balloon video, the full moon can been seen reflecting sunlight when the sun can not be seen. Then at altitude, the sun rises earlier than the expected time for the launch site. Both of these make perfect sense on a round Earth, and I don't see how they would be possible on a flat Earth.