devils advocate

why do stars change on FE
« on: September 18, 2017, 09:31:56 AM »
On a recent trip to Australia, stopping over at Singapore I noticed that in all three countries (UK, Singapore, Australia) when looking up there were different constellations visible, all within a 24 hour period. I know no FE map has been agreed upon but I do wonder how FE theory could explain this?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 09:44:04 AM »
The stars are in motion above the earth.

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 10:06:24 AM »
But this doesn't explain why the same stars/constellations are visible night after night in Australia and different stars are visible night after night in the UK. They are different constellations Tom. Surely if I look up from any point on Flat earth  I would see the same constellations, from different angles not completely new constellations?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 10:12:38 AM »
But this doesn't explain why the same stars/constellations are visible night after night in Australia and different stars are visible night after night in the UK. They are different constellations Tom. Surely if I look up from any point on Flat earth  I would see the same constellations, from different angles not completely new constellations?

Yes. A constellation over the equator would be seen  in a southward direction from northern latitudes and a northward direction from southern latitudes.

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 10:41:23 AM »
A constellation over the equator would be seen in a mirror image from South and North perspectives yes but it would be the SAME constellation. What I am wondering is why DIFFERENT constellations can be seen from Australia and the UK not just different views of the same ones?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 10:47:24 AM »
A constellation over the equator would be seen in a mirror image from South and North perspectives yes but it would be the SAME constellation. What I am wondering is why DIFFERENT constellations can be seen from Australia and the UK not just different views of the same ones?

That is because the perspective theory of the Ancient Greeks that parallel perspective lines travel for infinity before meeting is incorrect. It was decided that this was the case, for some reason, but that was never proven or demonstrated.

The perspective lines approach each other and meet at a finite point in the distance, as they are observed to do in a railroad perspective scene; meaning that we cannot see for infinity and that the view of the celestial bodies are limited.

devils advocate

Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 10:58:35 AM »
Hi Tom please can I clarify that I am understanding your answer correctly?
Are you saying that I was seeing the same constellations from all three countries but it was perspective that made them LOOK like different ones? i.e. from Oz a few stars were not visible and a few others became visible thus changing the apparent pattern I was seeing into what I BELIEVED to be a totally new constellation?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 12:57:11 PM »
Hi Tom please can I clarify that I am understanding your answer correctly?
Are you saying that I was seeing the same constellations from all three countries but it was perspective that made them LOOK like different ones? i.e. from Oz a few stars were not visible and a few others became visible thus changing the apparent pattern I was seeing into what I BELIEVED to be a totally new constellation?

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.

devils advocate

Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 01:06:34 PM »
That's an interesting idea Tom. Can we expand it further?

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11
_______A____B___C_____

Powerful telescopes can see far into the galaxy, our naked eye can see light emitting from star's 15,800 light years away:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-04-01/april-stargazing-night-sky-tour-with-fred-watson/8363524

Meaning that the mere few thousand Kilometres in difference between two of earth's nations should not make any difference to the distance one can see in space:

If someone standing at point B can see both 11 and 1 it would make no sense to say that those at point A and C see no 6 differently.

This is equivalent to saying that whilst in Australia we can see Omega Centauri (15,800 light years away) but once we travel a few thousand KM to the UK it cannot be seen. Would it not make more sense that the earth is round and thus these two nations are looking at different areas of space?

devils advocate

Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 04:16:33 PM »
Hi Tom please can I clarify that I am understanding your answer correctly?
Are you saying that I was seeing the same constellations from all three countries but it was perspective that made them LOOK like different ones? i.e. from Oz a few stars were not visible and a few others became visible thus changing the apparent pattern I was seeing into what I BELIEVED to be a totally new constellation?

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.

Surely we can see light as long as light is visible? Light from distant stars thousands of light years away is visible with the naked eye, how do the small distances on earth account for ANY change at all in what we can see

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 01:59:39 AM »
Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.

To translate this sentence into anything meaningful, you have to understand that Tom claims that light travels in straight lines - but in almost the same breath, claim that "perspective" can tie light rays into any pretzel shapes his heart desires without the need for further explanation.

He's still carefully avoiding answering the pinhole camera and clouds lit from underside diagrams which are simple enough for a 5 year old to understand - but which he's at a TOTAL loss to explain.

So when you hear "perspective" - you should mentally translate that to be "I have no clue".
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 03:28:20 AM »

So when you hear "perspective" - you should mentally translate that to be "I have no clue".


+1 !!!

Tom, since you seem to understand the FE "theory" so well, why not just draw us a few diagrams to help us visualize how things "really" work?

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.

Please don't try to tarnish the accomplishments of the greeks. First of, they never said anything like that (and if you think they did, please point us to a source). It's really not that hard, Tom: the Earth itself blocks many stars from our view, so of course not all stars are visible "under any point". Also, some light sources are too dim compared with others in the sky, so they're not as visible (like when the sun is out, we typically don't see the stars because they are so dim in comparison).

And by the way, this is another hole in the FE myth: if the sun does disappear from view with increasing distance (unlike what actually happens - Earth's rotation), then how come we can still see the distant stars near the horizon at night, despite the fact that they are further away and more dim?

Offline mtnman

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 03:56:14 AM »

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.
This answer is absurd. The shift of perspective of a few thousand miles could not begin to make any difference in how we see stars related to each other. I hope you are not suggesting that in FET the stars are just a short distance away.

A change in viewing perspective can make a difference in seeing stars, but not from one country to another. It is possible to see a small change over a six month period, using the diameter of the Earth's orbit as the base of a triangle. This measurement technique is called stellar parallax, or just parallax. I don't recall the distance, but I think it is a practical measurement out to about 30 light years.

Also, the things we see as stars are not just single points of light which can only be defined by their constellation relationship. There are different stars, of different magnitudes, of different colors. There are nebula, clusters of stars, galaxies, and the band of the milky way itself. These objects are uniquely identifiable and many can only, ever, be seen from one hemisphere or another.

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 06:58:32 AM »

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.
This answer is absurd. The shift of perspective of a few thousand miles could not begin to make any difference in how we see stars related to each other. I hope you are not suggesting that in FET the stars are just a short distance away.

A change in viewing perspective can make a difference in seeing stars, but not from one country to another. It is possible to see a small change over a six month period, using the diameter of the Earth's orbit as the base of a triangle. This measurement technique is called stellar parallax, or just parallax. I don't recall the distance, but I think it is a practical measurement out to about 30 light years.

Also, the things we see as stars are not just single points of light which can only be defined by their constellation relationship. There are different stars, of different magnitudes, of different colors. There are nebula, clusters of stars, galaxies, and the band of the milky way itself. These objects are uniquely identifiable and many can only, ever, be seen from one hemisphere or another.

I guess from the lack of response from Tom or any other FE believer that there is no further answer here from them. Flat earth has failed to put even a half decent response to this question which, in itself is enough to sink the FE ship.

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Offline juner

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 01:53:47 PM »

I guess from the lack of response from Tom or any other FE believer that there is no further answer here from them. Flat earth has failed to put even a half decent response to this question which, in itself is enough to sink the FE ship.

You do you realize that people have a life outside of posting on this forum, right? It literally has been just over a day since Tom's last post. If you have nothing substantial to add to threads in the upper fora, then please refrain from posting. We have dedicated fora if you want to post just to bitch about FE or proclaim how correct you are. Consider this a warning.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 02:00:34 PM »

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.
This answer is absurd. The shift of perspective of a few thousand miles could not begin to make any difference in how we see stars related to each other. I hope you are not suggesting that in FET the stars are just a short distance away.

A change in viewing perspective can make a difference in seeing stars, but not from one country to another. It is possible to see a small change over a six month period, using the diameter of the Earth's orbit as the base of a triangle. This measurement technique is called stellar parallax, or just parallax. I don't recall the distance, but I think it is a practical measurement out to about 30 light years.

Also, the things we see as stars are not just single points of light which can only be defined by their constellation relationship. There are different stars, of different magnitudes, of different colors. There are nebula, clusters of stars, galaxies, and the band of the milky way itself. These objects are uniquely identifiable and many can only, ever, be seen from one hemisphere or another.

Yes, the stars are a short distance away in FET. Learn more FET.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »
+1 !!!

Tom, since you seem to understand the FE "theory" so well, why not just draw us a few diagrams to help us visualize how things "really" work?

I just provided you a diagram. Perhaps you can pull out Photoshop and better render it for inclusion into a wiki page. You know, contribute, rather than demanding everything from me.

Quote
Please don't try to tarnish the accomplishments of the greeks. First of, they never said anything like that (and if you think they did, please point us to a source).

The Ancient Greeks believed in a continuous universe where time was infinitely dividable, space was infinite and infinitely dividable,  and where perspective lines could approach each other for infinity and never touch. The Ancient Greek math says that perspective lines can never touch, which is the basis for all of the "sun can never set on a flat earth" youtube video counter arguments.

Quote
And by the way, this is another hole in the FE myth: if the sun does disappear from view with increasing distance (unlike what actually happens - Earth's rotation), then how come we can still see the distant stars near the horizon at night, despite the fact that they are further away and more dim?

They are not further away, and they tend to disappear when they set before hitting the horizon due to atmospheric opacity.

Offline mtnman

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 02:38:45 PM »
+1 !!!

Tom, since you seem to understand the FE "theory" so well, why not just draw us a few diagrams to help us visualize how things "really" work?

I just provided you a diagram. Perhaps you can pull out Photoshop and better render it for inclusion into a wiki page. You know, contribute, rather than demanding everything from me.

Quote
Please don't try to tarnish the accomplishments of the greeks. First of, they never said anything like that (and if you think they did, please point us to a source).

The Ancient Greeks believed in a continuous universe where time was infinitely dividable, space was infinite and infinitely dividable,  and where perspective lines could approach each other for infinity and never touch. The Ancient Greek math says that perspective lines can never touch, which is the basis for all of the "sun can never set on a flat earth" youtube video counter arguments.

Quote
And by the way, this is another hole in the FE myth: if the sun does disappear from view with increasing distance (unlike what actually happens - Earth's rotation), then how come we can still see the distant stars near the horizon at night, despite the fact that they are further away and more dim?

They are not further away, and they tend to disappear when they set before hitting the horizon due to atmospheric opacity.

The "Ancient Greek math" also said the Earth was round. Are you considering them a source now?

Offline mtnman

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Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 02:41:42 PM »

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.
This answer is absurd. The shift of perspective of a few thousand miles could not begin to make any difference in how we see stars related to each other. I hope you are not suggesting that in FET the stars are just a short distance away.

A change in viewing perspective can make a difference in seeing stars, but not from one country to another. It is possible to see a small change over a six month period, using the diameter of the Earth's orbit as the base of a triangle. This measurement technique is called stellar parallax, or just parallax. I don't recall the distance, but I think it is a practical measurement out to about 30 light years.

Also, the things we see as stars are not just single points of light which can only be defined by their constellation relationship. There are different stars, of different magnitudes, of different colors. There are nebula, clusters of stars, galaxies, and the band of the milky way itself. These objects are uniquely identifiable and many can only, ever, be seen from one hemisphere or another.

Yes, the stars are a short distance away in FET. Learn more FET.

Please explain on your diagram above how people at extreme distant points on FE map (like southern Australia and southern Argentina) can see the same stars/constellations but people in between (North America) can not see what they see.

Re: why do stars change on FE
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2017, 02:51:31 PM »

a     b     c     d     e     f     g     h     i     j     k     l     m     n
______________________________________________________

If you are under point e you might only be able to see stars b though h. If you are under point j you might only be able to see stars g through m. When under point j here is some overlap in the stars you can see compared to when under point e.

Under the theory of the Ancient Greeks you should be able to see all stars when under any point; but this infinite nature of perspective theory has never been demonstrated.
This answer is absurd. The shift of perspective of a few thousand miles could not begin to make any difference in how we see stars related to each other. I hope you are not suggesting that in FET the stars are just a short distance away.

A change in viewing perspective can make a difference in seeing stars, but not from one country to another. It is possible to see a small change over a six month period, using the diameter of the Earth's orbit as the base of a triangle. This measurement technique is called stellar parallax, or just parallax. I don't recall the distance, but I think it is a practical measurement out to about 30 light years.

Also, the things we see as stars are not just single points of light which can only be defined by their constellation relationship. There are different stars, of different magnitudes, of different colors. There are nebula, clusters of stars, galaxies, and the band of the milky way itself. These objects are uniquely identifiable and many can only, ever, be seen from one hemisphere or another.

Yes, the stars are a short distance away in FET. Learn more FET.

Please explain on your diagram above how people at extreme distant points on FE map (like southern Australia and southern Argentina) can see the same stars/constellations but people in between (North America) can not see what they see.

Tom subscribes to the bipolar model, and while there are many problems with it (imo) this isn't one of them as it allows two 'discs' for stars, one over the Northern hemiplane, and one over the Southern hemiplane. This can manage to account for most of the different star problems.