The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Disgraced_Shield on October 05, 2015, 07:08:54 PM
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Good day. This is my first post, and I came here because I ran into a flat-earther (what do you call yourselves?) in another corner of the web. He claimed to have a truth that the rest of us didn't, and when I asked him a few questions, he vanished. He truly was not a great representative of your community. So, I came here to ask my question in the hopes that I can get a legitimate answer for what I think is the biggest piece of the puzzle.
Apologies if this is covered somewhere else- I did a cursory check before I posted this. If it is, please feel free to redirect me.
Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.
If I am reading this right, The entire theory hinges on a global conspiracy. The world's governments have known your truth for centuries, yet it is kept from us. The 'why' is much less relevant than the 'how.'
Human nature has demonstrated itself to be fickle and unreliable any number of times. Entire generations have been devastated by wars started over minor political, religious, and social ideologies. Governments of many global powers have been toppled time and again by coups and revolutions. (Russian, French, American Revolutions to name a few) With the ebb and flow of governmental control, how do you think it is possible for such a conspiracy to have been protected from the masses for so long? How is it possible that an overthrown government which has caused much malice with its populace- able to convince an incoming power to keep such a secret?
The mere scope of the conspiracy alone seems implausible. Far too much seems to rely on far too many people for there to have not been (by now) some sort of massive leak- a major player in the global community coming forth to decree that everything we know is wrong.
In the age where we are starting to turn an eye to privatized space flights, why would these companies not be shut down immediately by governments for fear of exposure of such a secret? Instead of having them killed off, private companies seeking to go to space for commercial or tourist purposes are flourishing.
It is for THIS reason that I remain skeptical of the idea that the earth is a flat plane. There might be others- again if I were of a scientific mind- but I am not, so I focus on what I know, and I know that throughout the course of history millions of people have been killed simply for the name by which they call God...yet there is a global political conspiracy to hide the shape of the very planet these problems exist on?
I just have yet to be convinced.
Thank you.
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I ran into a flat-earther (what do you call yourselves?)
Sorry, I realise this doesn't address the key point of your thread, but just to answer that bit real quick: "Flat Earther" (not necessarily capitalised, although frequently stylised that way here) or "FE'er" for short is probably the most commonly used term here. It's reasonably well understood in other Flat Earth communities too.
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Thank you for that.
I'm also finding now that the ice wall that is supposed to encircle the disk that is earth is supposed to be guarded by the various Navies of the world? If so, that broadens the group of people on the inside of this particular conspiracy. Over the course of just a few decades, you're adding tens of thousands of military personnel to the mix. More chance to leakage of information, more chance of the entire thing being exposed.
The geopolitical implications of this vast conspiracy are unfathomable. You're talking about a level of cooperation that simply cannot exist- and proof of this claim can be obtained by even the most rudimentary study of history and its conflicts.
Again, I am not a student of science. I'm questioning the FE theory based on what the entire thing requires to operate- Human cooperation.
Across Religion
Across political boundaries.
Across social structures
Across political climate change.
Across time.
A secret between two or three or a hundred people for a year or two is easily kept.
Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of years? I can't believe that is even possible.
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I can't believe that is even possible.
But it is possible.
The controversy/debate about the shape of the Earth is just the tip of the iceberg: the conspirators had to falsify the entire chronology of history in order to reach their goals.
They created the entire university system, the curriculum from its very first inception, they wrote the Bible and offered to the world...
As an example here is the inquisition at work right on the campus of UC Berkeley:
Many physicists who believe Einstein’s theory of relativity to be flawed have not been able to get their papers accepted for publication in most scientific journals. Eminent scientists are intimidated and warned that they may spoil their career prospects, if they openly opposed Einstein’s relativity. Distinguished British physicist Dr Louis Essen stated that physicists seem to abandon their critical faculties when considering relativity. He also remarked: ‘Students are told that the theory must be accepted although they cannot expect to understand it. They are encouraged right at the beginning of their careers to forsake science in favor of dogma.'
One of the most recent [suppression stories] comes from a new NPA member who, when doing graduate work in physics around 1960, heard the following story from his advisor: While working for his Ph.D. in physics at the University of California in Berkeley in the late 1920s, this advisor had learned that all physics departments in the U.C. system were being purged of all critics of Einsteinian relativity. Those who refused to change their minds were ordered to resign, and those who would not were fired, on slanderous charges of anti-Semitism. The main cited motivation for this unspeakably unethical procedure was to present a united front before grant-giving agencies, the better to obtain maximal funds. This story does not surprise me. There has been a particularly vicious attitude towards critics of Einsteinian relativity at U.C. Berkeley ever since.
And here is how the original set of Maxwell's equations was eliminated/censored from public view:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1639521#msg1639521
To find out how the entire chronology of history up to 1800 AD has been forged/falsified:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1638504#msg1638504
I'm also finding now that the ice wall that is supposed to encircle the disk...
There is no ice wall: much of the information contained in the official FAQ is completely wrong.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3422.msg77284#msg77284
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A secret between two or three or a hundred people for a year or two is easily kept.
Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of years? I can't believe that is even possible.
It's not possible, because there is no conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth. It is what it is. A globe. There are those who choose to believe it's flat, and good luck to them, everyone is entitled to their own version of reality.
Where it get's interesting, is the convoluted thought processes required to maintain the belief in flat earth, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Conspiracies are real enough, but flat earth isn't a real one.
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A globe.
You no longer have that option: the faint young sun and the comets' tail paradoxes tell us that the age of the heliocentrical planetary system is much younger than previously thought.
FAINT YOUNG SUN PARADOX:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707290#msg1707290
It has not been solved at all, notwithstanding the best efforts of the most competent of scientists, nor can it be solved.
DATING METHODS OF THE PAST: ISOTOPES VS. COMETS:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1640735#msg1640735
The age of the Solar System must be less than the estimated upper age of comets.
Halley's comet, for example, could not exist as a comet for more than 120 revolutions.
120 x 75 = 9000 years
“It's a mystery to me how comets work at all,” said Donald Brownlee, principle investigator of NASA's Stardust Mission.
“The remarkable properties of comets are not even remotely explicable by any of the numerous ad hoc assumptions of ‘modern’ comet theory.”
— R A Lyttleton
"Comets are perhaps at once the most spectacular and the least well understood members of the solar system."
M. Neugebauer, Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Electric Comet Theory:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1619877#msg1619877
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Again, looking past the science- because your science says one thing, and other science says another, you can't have a flat earth without a conspiracy.
You can't have a conspiracy this old, and this big, in the face of blossoming technologies and human awareness.
If the scientific data can't kill the flat earth theory, the political one absolutely does.
You're asserting that entire centuries of history have been rewritten, altered, and forged to protect a secret. Centuries encompassing major leaps in technological, scientific, and social enlightenment, an assertion I can't get behind.
I ask how a secret this big can be kept, and you tell me it's because its part of a bigger secret, and that doesn't compute.
You mention suppressed scientific data. Okay. Maybe. Maybe people are having their careers threatened for rubbing against the grain. Keep in mind though that certain elements of the scientific community at some point got behind the idea of Eugenics- so rubbing against the grain isn't always a great idea. Not only that, but you tell me that elements of the scientific community are members of a conspiracy to hide 'truth' for some reason, that they could be beholden to a secret society that dictates what is taught.
What's to say though, that these suppressed papers and studies aren't part of a conspiracy of their own, that the authors weren't beholden to people somewhere else?
Going back to the human aspect of this thing, you're still putting your faith into a systematic lie that is way too big to have succeeded. You're talking about the need for hundreds of thousands of people over the course of documented history keeping their mouths shut, even in the face of political upheaval, war, and technological advancements.
Exactly how big do you think this conspiracy is? Who is behind it? What is their motivation? What tactics do they use to prevent discovery in the age where I can unlock my car doors via satellite from 100 miles away with my cell phone?
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I've also followed a bunch of the links you provided, and I've come to another conclusion.
Since the burden of proof is on your shoulders as challengers of the accepted and generally universal concept of an earth that is an oblate spheroid, you have to discount ALL photographs from either side of the argument.
Since one of the main points you continue to make is that all photos depicting a globular earth are doctored, in the interest of solid scientific method, you also need to assume that all photographs of that support a flat earth are also doctored, or you're cherry-picking arguments to suit your own needs.
You simply cannot refute any and all photos from one side of the argument, dismissing them as faked, while openly embracing ones that support another side just because they lend credence to your own ideas.
"All of your proof is doctored. All of my proof is good."
I will admit that I am completely in the camp of the spherical earth. I don't believe for a second that the earth is flat, although I've never shied away from a debate, and often relish the chance to be proven wrong so I can learn something.
But going back to my original points, I can't accept the FE model of the earth because it relies too heavily on a complete divergence from human nature.
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A globe.
You no longer have that option: the faint young sun and the comets' tail paradoxes tell us that the age of the heliocentrical planetary system is much younger than previously thought.
I will follow up those links and see where it leads, I always enjoy reading your posts, and let us see where the discussion leads.
But, before embarking on the discussion of whether or not a conspiracy exists, it should be recognized at the outset, that it it not logically possible to disprove conspiracy, since any evidence of disproof can be considered part of the conspiracy.
So, since, theoretically, conspiracy can never be disproved, only ever proved, is it any wonder that conspiracy theories tend to multiply and persist.
In the case of the flat earth conspiracy, we face the same conundrum.
Argument from personal incredulity, might be invalid most of the time, maybe this is one time it really is a valid argument.
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I am with the Shield on this. Generations of people from all walks of life all falling under this spell and no one breaking ranks, and for what? Some measure of control.
As yet I fail to see what use the controllers of the earth would gain by such an elaborate subterfuge, the whole of astronomy, most physics, geology, telecommunication, cartography, meteorology, historians the militaries, etc. not to mention the whole political system, policed with such inhuman meticulousness as to beggar belief. When early on they could have said “hey the worlds flat, and used all their resources to convince us of something else they wanted us to believe, the golden rule of lying, surely being, keep it simple.
It got me to wondering why people go for this complete change of world view, and having read quite a few responses over time, I think the link below holds a clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY0QqXRTPHI
I remember a friend telling me once that when she read Carl Sagan "...we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people." (I prefer Monty Pythons Galaxy song for the same effect) That she felt ill, like she was standing on a cliffs edge, and then a feeling of intense sadness and almost horror.
This sensation of insignificance especially amongst those bought up to believe that the whole universe revolves specifically around them, to the extent that the being that supposedly designed and made the whole thing, watches their every move, can be so profoundly shocking (I think) as to induce the type of mania we see above. That this mania takes the form of an all pervasive and controlling force is a reflection of the kind of mind set they are used to, i.e. that of a religion.
That there are things that science struggles to answer (faint young sun, dark matter etc.) is the nature and attraction of science, a recently evolved member of the ape community struggling to understand its surroundings. To throw up ones hands when the answers don’t come easily and go back to a book written a few thousand years ago by some desert dwellers is capitulation.
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Thank you for that.
I'm also finding now that the ice wall that is supposed to encircle the disk that is earth is supposed to be guarded by the various Navies of the world? If so, that broadens the group of people on the inside of this particular conspiracy. Over the course of just a few decades, you're adding tens of thousands of military personnel to the mix. More chance to leakage of information, more chance of the entire thing being exposed.
The geopolitical implications of this vast conspiracy are unfathomable. You're talking about a level of cooperation that simply cannot exist- and proof of this claim can be obtained by even the most rudimentary study of history and its conflicts.
Again, I am not a student of science. I'm questioning the FE theory based on what the entire thing requires to operate- Human cooperation.
Across Religion
Across political boundaries.
Across social structures
Across political climate change.
Across time.
A secret between two or three or a hundred people for a year or two is easily kept.
Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of years? I can't believe that is even possible.
First of all, I noticed your comment that the "so-called ice ring" is guarded by "all the Navies of the world." I hadn't heard this before. But the general "flat earth" comment is that the guards are from NASA. I haven't seen any comments as to who guarded it before NASA ?
Also the main theme of flat earth seems to be to disregard all science and any evidence, especially photographs as "false" or "fakes". Some "flat earthers" have accused all scientists, and especially NASA as being demons, demon possessed , satan worshippers or satanic persons if they "believe" that the earth is a globe.
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I also am a history major and my first question (when I began to take it seriously) was "just how MANY people who are alive today would have to know to keep this SECRET of SECRETS. Well the ONLY people to actually go up in space are NASA astronauts. And there is presumably one or more handlers for the astronauts. And maybe their bosses. That's still just a handful of people. (100-1000? out of 6 billion.) An airplane pilot or navigator before a cartain date (1990's before everything became "automated" with "GPS") might have figured out that SOMETHING wasn't right, but who'd he tell? (Remember how they treated the first UFO spotting pilots?) Now as far as the world's governmtnts etc. being told I don't know. A small group (like say the Jesuit hierarchy) could have kept that secret until well into last century. Once people started exploring Antartica and once we started launching rockets then I am sure the secret was shared with the powers that be if not before. The "WHY" is easy: CONTROL. How many of us have been waiting for the "star trek" world to become a reality? We have been pretty much distracted from reality. If you really think about it nothing has changed only your outlook. And now that you (are beginning to) see the truth you can start to ask the right questions in life. It's amazing to just go outside and look at the sun and/or moon.............
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rayjet- if it WERE only a thousand or so people....maybe.
But earlier in this post thread, there was mention made of an entire century of history being edited and rewritten. Our forays into space haven't been going on for that long. Conspiracy theorists will be happy to tell you that this goes back to way before you and I time.
But looking at the 'control' aspect...that could one possibly hope to gain from something like this? What are the political and social aspects of control that could be levied against the masses with this particular piece of information? The information alone doesn't carry much of a payout.
Now lets discount history and the idea that centuries might have had their history rewritten, that conspirators were the ones that wrote the bible....etc.
Lets instead look to the future. Privatized space flight. A quick online search will yield literally dozens of companies from all over the world with their hands in that particular gain, either for commercial or tourism purposes. How can these companies be allowed to operate if they're threatening whomever is behind this- assuming they have such a powerful grip on our perceptions? Why wasn't Felix Baumgartner killed in a freak auto accident?
Lets pick further and go back to NASA.
....How can they be behind it when Russia has also sent humans into space? You'd have to tell me that the Russian and US Governments are in bed with each other on this one. These two countries couldn't agree on the color of the sky- if only for the sake of arguing it, and this has been the case long before space flight was a thing.
NASA doesn't have a monopoly on national space flight- and the concept is starting to become a plaything for the super-wealthy. It would seem to me if someone was really behind the curtain and trying to control what we know about the shape of the earth, they'd be awfully puckered in the butt right now, and more efforts would be taken to ground 'us.'
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First of all, I noticed your comment that the "so-called ice ring" is guarded by "all the Navies of the world." I hadn't heard this before. But the general "flat earth" comment is that the guards are from NASA. I haven't seen any comments as to who guarded it before NASA ?
Apologies if this is inaccurate, but the chap that I ran into on another web site made this claim. It was really my first exposure to this whole 'world.' It was his commentary that drove me here, since when I asked him to clarify or explain.....he vanished, forcing me to look...well....here.
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You are handicapped by the fact you are facing a conspiracy so monstrous that you cannot believe it exists.
https://m.facebook.com/notes/fred-earl-anthony-wyatt/new-world-order-elite-illuminati-government-quotes/10151761372229621
Read up on some of this stuff. Maybe some truth will penetrate your thinking.
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Mention is made of a conspiracy/cover-up/secret.
It isn't needed.
How many people in the 'western world' actually believed for years that the Native Americans were the primitive, scalp-collecting aggressors as 'seen' in cowboy films?
Most.
It wasn't that we were all told that that was the case. The spread of propaganda and brain-washing through the medium of film, TV and radio a 'belief' was established that has lasted for decades. Only now, because some people are asking the right questions are the real truths coming to light. Still, these real facts about native peoples current and historical are not widely broadcast. Although Native Americans Day was established, we still have Thanksgiving Day. There is also Un-Thanksgiving Day because there are people that claim that the real truth about the way the Native Americans were treated has been kept 'hidden', kept a 'secret', kept from the public 'MIND' for a very long time...it isn't difficult in the tight confines of this relatively small arena to sell an idea, to create a truth, so that it becomes fact, unquestionable....because why should the rulers make something up...???
The moon-landings are in question.....look at the data being presented across the web and other media ....everything from cross-hairs, shadows, dust, same landscape different mission, and other issues...(see my comments elsewhere re. Dara O'Braian/Brian Cox re. current spacesuits only suitable for low orbit use), yet we have supposedly gone to the moon....???!
And others on this thread have mentioned the treatment of scientists who don't comply with given dogma. Most comments disregarded, however.
You have to ask questions and not just believe what you think you know to be true simply, and especially because, the official, funded, franchised 'experts' tell you it's so. Have you read Darwin's Origin of Species? Have you read Darwin's own comments on his ideas? If the book was only written today, and no concept of evolution existed, and it was pushed out on the web with the YouTuber attitude of question and doubt, do you really think that the world would be saying yes, Darwin is right???
No!
The so-called experts are all in the same staff-room. They do not allow any other viewpoint, no challenge to their authority. Very similar to the catholic Church a 1000 years ago, very similar to islamic doctrine today (don't attack me over this comment....islamic doctrine DOES NOT ALLOW FREE INTERPRETATION), very similar to any totalitarian state control.
I read a book years ago, in a series of science books by those thinkers who were not allowed in to the system, written by a scientist who studied the remains of mammoths up in the mountains of Norway, frozen and completely covered by marine shells...............his idea that, considering that there are so many references from across the 'Globe!!' (ha ha!) from different cultures referencing a global FLOOD, perhaps, he suggested, that there was indeed something in it........can anyone explain the presence of marine shells up in the Norwegian mountains?????? But his idea was quashed and he was not allowed to practice in the Uni system. The truth has been established AND eventually they will discover the real reason for marine shells up mountains, reasons that FIT-IN with this established framework of thought/belief.
The truth also includes a Big Bang Theory (and I don't mean Penny, Sheldon, and co.). A theory which is the root of all the rest of the truth, a theory which can never be proven true, a theory which has to somehow explain how something can come from nothing and (one day) suddenly come into existence.............isn't that bordering on magic? Almost begs that there is a creating pointy finger behind it all to help things along..........
However, I'm sure those that think everything is just right, will dismiss all these arguments and keep their heads in the sand. It's true that in this VILLAGE that "questions are a burden to others, the answers a prison to oneself......", and for all those that don't want their beliefs ruffled, "a still tongue makes a happy life"
However, I urge you all: Follow the Signs, Number Six
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Saying that to question the existence of a conspiracy is a result of widespread propaganda seems a little watery to me. Nor does it address the mechanics of the conspiracy itself which I brought to the table.
Telling someone he's a sucker when he asks a question doesn't answer the question.
As a historian, I know full well how propaganda worked, and in fact continues to work on the populace.
However, also as a historian, I know full well the political landscape of the entire world truly doesn't lend itself to the keeping of such a massive secret, strictly because of the main component of it: Humans.
For the sake of fairness, I'm not even looking at the scientific evidence. BOTH the RE and the FE people are saying the exact same thing:
"Scientific evidence that supports your theory is wrong, doctored, and falsified. Scientific evidence that supports my theory is true, indisputable, and able to be replicated."
That being said, I'm ignoring it here. All of it. Ten minutes of research on the web could net published evidence that the earth was a tetrahedron made of cobalt if you were so inclined to look for it. That doesn't lend it any validity though.
From a strictly mechanical point of view, the FE theory can't hold water because it depends on a collaboration across time and geo-political boundaries that has got to be colossal in size.
One of your compatriots tells me that satellites and clouds are suspended artificially by cosmic-ray devices.
Suppose they are. Where are they? How many are there? Who installs, controls and maintains them?
Suppose sustained rocket and space flight is impossible as is also maintained on this site.
How many people have been involved in the program that have got to be involved in the conspiracy for it to work? How many members of the space program in a multitude of nations need to be 'in on it?'
....you're talking about thousands of people at so many levels of human societal existence that the 'possibility' of a leak or a tell-all exposure evolves into a 'probability' in a matter of minutes and a 'sure thing' in just a space of a couple of days.
Still more- Privatized space flight, dozens of companies across nations are planning on space flights for commercial and tourist purposes. Wouldn't the conspirators have to come to these people on the sly and say "Yeah. uh...it's all a sham. You can't actually fly into space. Also, shh."
If that happens....more people are in the fold.
If this was still the 17 or 1800s and technology was still in a relative infancy, the idea that the whole thing is fabricated might hold more plausibility. But in an age where the answers to damn near every question you can think of asking are in your pocket, in an age where over a thousand active man-made satellites are in orbit around the earth- both government and private- you're starting to make it seem like there are more people IN the loop than OUT of it.
Hell, we're in an age where famous people can't have sex without it being on the internet in a few hours, yet a conspiracy that hides the shape of the planet I live on has yet to have the lid blown off it? :D
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Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.
You are a history teacher and you can not understand how an entire populace can be deceived???? Is that some kind of joke???
That reflects upon you more than anything else. No need for science indeed! All you have to do is look at the inordinate number of shills here in this forum and ask the obvious question: What the hell are they doing here?? What are YOU doing here???
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Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.
You are a history teacher and you can not understand how an entire populace can be deceived???? Is that some kind of joke???
That reflects upon you more than anything else. No need for science indeed! All you have to do is look at the inordinate number of shills here in this forum and ask the obvious question: What the hell are they doing here?? What are YOU doing here???
A: I understand how people can be deceived. The joke here is that you seem unable to grasp the idea that something so big would implode on itself. To simplify it- a balloon that gets too big will pop. The more technology and knowledge we have puts more air into that balloon- IF said balloon (conspiracy) exists. You're basically telling me that everyone in history except for a few hundred people on a web site have been the butt of a long con.
B: I'm here because I wanted information. I wanted to meet the people behind an idea. I'm here because I met a FE proponent on another web site and started doing my research. A legitimate scientific society will welcome a chance to teach others. You're just looking to run out everyone that doesn't agree with you. That's not science, that's a cult. If you're unwilling to debate, discuss, and yes accept new ideas of your own, then it looks like I came to the wrong place.
C: I don't like being dismissed as a shill any more than you like being dismissed as a kook. I'm willing to engage in debate because I enjoy learning. Even if I don't learn about the subject itself, I learn about the people around me. That's science. You're willing to corner up with your hackles raised at the first sign if dissension. That's telling.
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Even if I don't learn about the subject itself, I learn about the people around me.
The same goes with us. You people are interesting, to say the least.
For the life of me, I can not imagine why a sane person would commit as much effort as you have into discussing "science" that is more-than-obviously above your head.
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For the life of me, I can not imagine why a sane person would commit as much effort as you have into discussing "science" that is more-than-obviously above your head.
Rookie move, insulting the intelligence of someone who challenges you.
Fella, you have no idea what's above my head any more than I know what's above yours. One of us is demonstrating a pretty low threshold for comprehension however.
If you want to debate me over my points and questions like a human being, that's why I'm here. Your community claims to have a truth that the general populace doesn't. Yet when people come in here looking for more information and discussion on what is a pretty novel way of thinking given history and conventional science- we meet you. Defensive to the point of being offensive, positively nil for constructive contribution of a discussion, and seemingly as high-strung as an Irish Setter on NoDoz.
Your community has a forum called "Flat Earth Debate" I came in to debate a flat earth by asking questions. Rather than provide answers, you get cultishly defensive, dismissive, and make such a rudimentary attempt at being insulting that I not only feel ashamed for you, but for your entire forum for not only having to expend the effort to spread their word and possibly have their science accepted as truth, but also now have to expend even MORE effort to slough off the mantle of lunacy that you're wrapping around you like a well-worn blankie.
Moving on, and coming back to the point at hand:
The idea that the conspiracy isn't as wide as I'm making it out to be is an interesting one, and needs to be addressed.
Some maintain that the people who control scientific education- the release of information to the world- are responsible for the protection of the secret, and would thus narrow the scope of such a conspiracy. IF this is it, then heads of state and governmental agencies aren't involved in the secret, since they themselves would have been shammed.
This is done through the suppression of 'new' or 'alternative' scientific publications, bullying and threats at the 'do you want to lose your job and career?' level, which is all effective, to a point.
Where it comes unglued though, is at the same place that the idea of a massive conspiracy does. Human Nature.
Whereas a gigantic cover-up wouldn't work because someone of status somewhere, would leak the information and blow the whole thing open, a smaller scale operation would be blown open because someone of status somewhere WOULD make the decision to lose a career, job, or possibly life to expose the truth- especially if it were a truth this size.
Look at the Milgram Experiment in psychology. 65% of participants in his first set of experimentation administered the maximum shock to the subjects in his study. The other 35% would not. Which says to me that there could be upwards of 35% of people who ARE involved in this conspiracy, regardless of how large it is- are going to want to do 'what is right.' Who are going to in some way, challenge the established secret society which seeks to hide such a secret.
And as the years go on, that 35% is going to find a way to crack the dam.
One could argue that YOU are the crack in the dam, but without some sort of established, reputable backing of someone who claims to have been 'in the know' I can't give this theory any merit.
Human psychology breaks a conspiracy theory at a massive level because someone, somewhere will leak.
It also breaks a conspiracy theory at a small level, because of the scope of the secret you'd be dealing with. Someone, somewhere will leak.
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For the life of me, I can not imagine why a sane person would commit as much effort as you have into discussing "science" that is more-than-obviously above your head.
Rookie move, insulting the intelligence of someone who challenges you.
No need to take offense.
My comment only refers to sane people.
Go print a T-shirt that says: "I spend Xhours a day debating with flat earthers" and wear it among your peers. Then come back and talk.
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Go print a T-shirt that says: "I spend Xhours a day debating with flat earthers" and wear it among your peers. Then come back and talk.
If not doing that means you won't talk to me anymore, then don't count on any new additions to my wardrobe any time soon since you've proven time and again that you have nothing but insults and negativity to contribute to a conversation.
Now please stop trying to derail my thread by attempting to goad me into a pissing contest and having the whole thing locked down for being nonsensical.
I have questions, you haven't got any answers. Do everyone a service by going away and leaving commentary to those for whom rational conversation isn't an insurmountable task. You won't get any more response from me, as it isn't doing anyone any good.
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Hi Charming Anarchist, comments like the ones you've posted in this thread add nothing to a discussion. Please review the forum rules about low-content posts and personal attacks.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0
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Go print a T-shirt that says: "I spend Xhours a day debating with flat earthers" and wear it among your peers. Then come back and talk.
If not doing that means you won't talk to me anymore, then don't count on any new additions to my wardrobe any time soon since you've proven time and again that you have nothing but insults and negativity to contribute to a conversation.
Fair enough.
If I encounter a post of yours which begs further clarification so that an unsuspecting reader may not be confused into believing falsehoods, then I will point it out that confusion.
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I was reminded of this thread the other night walking the dog out in the country watching satellites. Since comming here i try to see things from a FE perspective as challenge to my usual standpoint but I couldn't make this work.
If as somepeople here believe, there are no satellites then what are the tiny star like objects I see after dark, crawling across the sky? They make no noise, they are higher than any cloud, as the night draws on they disappear. If NASA was faking it with little drones then they would be visible from commercial airliners and would have to have a base, people to opperate them, false sites that identify them and tell me what they were or where they will be, nope I can't fathom it, any help?
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I was reminded of this thread the other night walking the dog out in the country watching satellites. Since comming here i try to see things from a FE perspective as challenge to my usual standpoint but I couldn't make this work.
If as somepeople here believe, there are no satellites then what are the tiny star like objects I see after dark, crawling across the sky? They make no noise, they are higher than any cloud, as the night draws on they disappear. If NASA was faking it with little drones then they would be visible from commercial airliners and would have to have a base, people to opperate them, false sites that identify them and tell me what they were or where they will be, nope I can't fathom it, any help?
The way it was explained to me, was that there ARE satellites. They're just being held up in the air artificially (as are the clouds) by cosmic-ray devices, which we can't see or find because they're easily camouflaged.
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Cosmic ray devices! Well thanks for clearing that up, Perfect sense.
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The way it was explained to me, was that there ARE satellites. They're just being held up in the air artificially (as are the clouds) by cosmic-ray devices, which we can't see or find because they're easily camouflaged.
Could you let us know who explained this to you quite so poorly, or should we just assume that you're lying?
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The way it was explained to me, was that there ARE satellites. They're just being held up in the air artificially (as are the clouds) by cosmic-ray devices, which we can't see or find because they're easily camouflaged.
Could you let us know who explained this to you quite so poorly, or should we just assume that you're lying?
As flattered as I am that you think I'd be clever enough to make something like up, alas, I did not. Your very own Sandokhan is responsible for this tidbit of information.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3475.0 (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3475.0)
Browse that thread.
Specifically, Replies #2, #4, #6, and #9, reiterated several times afterwards. You'll find it all buried between his classic "You haven't done your homework" commentary.
Well, this time I have. I may disagree with you guys on a regular basis but I don't go making shit up to prove a point, and I don't particularly care for being called a liar because you don't happen to agree with me. As you erroneously assumed that, so will I assume (also most likely erroneously) that I'll get an apology.
If the idea seems way out in left-field, it did to me too, which is why I repeatedly asked him to clarify the statements he made beyond his famous text-walls.
I never got my clarification, but was accused of trolling for seeking it.
SOP at times it seems.
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A globe.
You no longer have that option: the faint young sun and the comets' tail paradoxes tell us that the age of the heliocentrical planetary system is much younger than previously thought.
FAINT YOUNG SUN PARADOX:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707290#msg1707290
It has not been solved at all, notwithstanding the best efforts of the most competent of scientists, nor can it be solved.
DATING METHODS OF THE PAST: ISOTOPES VS. COMETS:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1640735#msg1640735
The age of the Solar System must be less than the estimated upper age of comets.
Halley's comet, for example, could not exist as a comet for more than 120 revolutions.
120 x 75 = 9000 years
“It's a mystery to me how comets work at all,” said Donald Brownlee, principle investigator of NASA's Stardust Mission.
“The remarkable properties of comets are not even remotely explicable by any of the numerous ad hoc assumptions of ‘modern’ comet theory.”
— R A Lyttleton
"Comets are perhaps at once the most spectacular and the least well understood members of the solar system."
M. Neugebauer, Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Electric Comet Theory:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1619877#msg1619877
I have no problem with a young universe as I'm a young earth creationist. The problem I do have is that the earth is flat, from being in the other forum for awhile I think it's safe to say that it's not flat but round. How else you explain 24 hour daylight in Antarctica in the winter?
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Your very own Sandokhan is responsible for this tidbit of information.
There's your problem. Nobody takes sandokhan seriously, but you chose to.
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So sexy, who do we take seriously? Sandy is off the list, FE currently thinks his computer has Jafar running his CPU, Orbisect couldn't get anyone to weigh in on his side, Tom is off curing cancer with garlic, so give us a sanctioned list of contributers that have nailed it.
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You, sweetheart, are FES's sole authority on all matters. Use your newfound power well.
After all, you seem to find it controversial that I'd suggest that someone who repeatedly says the FES are wrong (but who repeatedly refuses to try and reach any kind of consensus) would not have much backing within the FES. It's only sensible that we'd take you seriously.
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Mmm...
It's not that I find your rejection of Sandy controversial, I wouldn't expect otherwise, more the fact that having obviously read the posts, your (the FES's inner circle) contribution has been limited, so we are forced to engage with those that engage us, never really knowing (until now re Sandy) if they are singing from the same hymn sheet.
So going back to the original topic of D Shield's, the conspiracy that is central to the workings of this societies reasoning.
You (sexy) have obviously read along, we have had the loony tunes answers, do you have anything to say?
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The OP's confusion appears to be that he believes there is a conspiracy that specifically knows the Earth is flat but hides it from the population at large. That is not a claim serious FE'ers would make, in my humble opinion.
http://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
Privatised space flight may yet prove to blow this idea out of the water, but so far we've seen nothing but mysterious failures, Ponzi schemes, or simple rebrands of NASA under the pretense of space flight being "privatised". Meanwhile, NASA's funding is on a constant decline.
(http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4a60c2dc4b5437a9009158f1/.jpg)
They already know they fucked up, and that they can't keep it going on forever. They're shutting it down slowly, but steadily.
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Your very own Sandokhan is responsible for this tidbit of information.
There's your problem. Nobody takes sandokhan seriously, but you chose to.
I would have to agree with you, SexWarrior , as far as sandokhan is concerned. ;D
I had a bit of his copypasta on my very first post on "that other" Flat Earth Society Forum.
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Your very own Sandokhan is responsible for this tidbit of information.
There's your problem. Nobody takes sandokhan seriously, but you chose to.
I don't particularly take him seriously, but enough of your own community seem to:
Answer me this without a dissertation and 38 links back to your own forum. Use plain English and don't go off on a tangent...
You must be new around here... Sandokhan/levee offers the very best proofs in the business and you will get all of them, every time, regardless how loosely related they may be.
The fractured nature of your entire community is starting to lead me to believe this entire thing is a sham. I debate a member and get told 'he's the best.' I refer to the same member in another thread and get told 'he's crazy.'
Aside from the vast, unsubstantiated assumptions made by the entire flat-earth theory, there is no unity behind any of the 'logic' or 'science.' As a round-earther here, I'm not debating a flat-earth idea, I'm debating a collective of varied ideas, each seems to rely on another one to say 'that isn't valid' whenever I get close to unraveling it.
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Answer me this without a dissertation and 38 links back to your own forum. Use plain English and don't go off on a tangent...
You must be new around here... Sandokhan/levee offers the very best proofs in the business and you will get all of them, every time, regardless how loosely related they may be.
The fractured nature of your entire community is starting to lead me to believe this entire thing is a sham. I debate a member and get told 'he's the best.' I refer to the same member in another thread and get told 'he's crazy.'
Aside from the vast, unsubstantiated assumptions made by the entire flat-earth theory, there is no unity behind any of the 'logic' or 'science.' As a round-earther here, I'm not debating a flat-earth idea, I'm debating a collective of varied ideas, each seems to rely on another one to say 'that isn't valid' whenever I get close to unraveling it.
My post you quoted doesn't mean what you think it means. I apologize if the sarcasm wasn't oozing as much as I thought it appeared to be...
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Satellites do exist and they are powered up by the device invented by Dr. Nikola Tesla; then, they orbit above the surface of the flat earth using the Biefeld-Brown effect.
It is strange for someone to say that he/she does not take me seriously, given the fact that I saved the day for the FES each and every time the failure of the UA accelerator hypothesis manifested itself very fast: the ring laser gyroscope, the beam neutrinos, the axial precession, the Venus angular size.
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If you really want to get down to reality, there is really no debate about the shape of the earth being the sphere that it is and has been known for centuries." The Scope of Conspiracy Seems Implausible" because it would have to include just about every person on the earth.
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If you really want to get down to reality, there is really no debate about the shape of the earth being the sphere that it is and has been known for centuries." The Scope of Conspiracy Seems Implausible" because it would have to include just about every person on the earth.
False.
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If you really want to get down to reality, there is really no debate about the shape of the earth being the sphere that it is and has been known for centuries." The Scope of Conspiracy Seems Implausible" because it would have to include just about every person on the earth.
False.
Or possibly a large percentage of those who work in areas where a globular earth is concerned. Oceanic and aeronautical navigation, astronomy, and many others that depend on maps for commerce for just one group . And discounting those who say they believe in a flat earth would result in a large percentage of others would have to include a majority at least who might be considered a part of a Round Earth Conspiracy.
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Your very own Sandokhan is responsible for this tidbit of information.
There's your problem. Nobody takes sandokhan seriously, but you chose to.
I don't particularly take him seriously, but enough of your own community seem to:
Answer me this without a dissertation and 38 links back to your own forum. Use plain English and don't go off on a tangent...
You must be new around here... Sandokhan/levee offers the very best proofs in the business and you will get all of them, every time, regardless how loosely related they may be.
The fractured nature of your entire community is starting to lead me to believe this entire thing is a sham. I debate a member and get told 'he's the best.' I refer to the same member in another thread and get told 'he's crazy.'
Aside from the vast, unsubstantiated assumptions made by the entire flat-earth theory, there is no unity behind any of the 'logic' or 'science.' As a round-earther here, I'm not debating a flat-earth idea, I'm debating a collective of varied ideas, each seems to rely on another one to say 'that isn't valid' whenever I get close to unraveling it.
I have seen many comments on the Internet that the Flat Earth Society Forum websites are:
-quote-"One big hoax or one big joke."-unquote
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As a round-earther here, I'm not debating a flat-earth idea, I'm debating a collective of varied ideas, each seems to rely on another one to say 'that isn't valid' whenever I get close to unraveling it.
There's nothing to "unravel". There are plenty of good books on the subject (many of which can be found in our Library), not to mention the wiki. It's not our fault that you fail to differentiate obvious trolls from serious posters. If anything, it reflects poorly on you.
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As a round-earther here, I'm not debating a flat-earth idea, I'm debating a collective of varied ideas, each seems to rely on another one to say 'that isn't valid' whenever I get close to unraveling it.
There's nothing to "unravel". There are plenty of good books on the subject (many of which can be found in our Library), not to mention the wiki. It's not our fault that you fail to differentiate obvious trolls from serious posters. If anything, it reflects poorly on you.
Fascinating how 'your' trolls are shrugged off and kept around for shits and giggles apparently. Either that, or they're kept around as patsies for when someone gets close to shoveling through the drek that some of you consider science.
Dissenting opinion, however, religiously gets handed the often unfair moniker of 'troll' and gets run roughshod over.
Your stone-throwing is amazing.
You talk about reflection, yet have no idea what your backpedaling, personal attacks, and self-admitted trolling does for your very own community.
That, is even more amazing.
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The Scope of Conspiracy Seems Implausible" because it would have to include just about every person on the earth.
How is that a problem???
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The Scope of Conspiracy Seems Implausible" because it would have to include just about every person on the earth.
How is that a problem???
Then....it ceases to be a conspiracy, and starts to become the entire world trying to play a trick on a few dozen people on an internet forum.
Damn. You got us.
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Damn. You got us.
No. Somebody else has you and my guess is that you walked right into him.
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Fascinating how 'your' trolls are shrugged off and kept around for shits and giggles apparently. Either that, or they're kept around as patsies for when someone gets close to shoveling through the drek that some of you consider science.
Dissenting opinion, however, religiously gets handed the often unfair moniker of 'troll' and gets run roughshod over.
I'm sorry, do you have any evidence to back up your claims? In what way have dissenters been "run roughshod over"? Are you suggesting that they have been banned? We can easily verify that (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=banlist). Are you suggesting that their posts were removed or otherwise suppressed? If so, why is no one complaining (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?board=4.0)?
No. This is quite simple. You fell for the tricks of a troll, and you're upset that you became the butt of a practical joke. I already told you where to go to "unravel" all of our securely kept (read: widely advertised) secrets. Instead of doing so, you chose to go on an angry rant.
Your stone-throwing is amazing.
Son, you seem to have found yourself in a glass house. Moreover, you're projecting.
Take a deep breath and read this thread once more, calmly. If by the end of it you still don't understand that you shouldn't have listened to sandokhan in the first place, then you might just need to take the others' word for it. Note that even geckothegeek, possibly the most annoying and ignorant round earther on this forum, managed to get his head around this one. You're better than that. I believe in you.
You talk about reflection, yet have no idea what your backpedaling, personal attacks, and self-admitted trolling does for your very own community.
Backpedaling? Self-admitted trolling? You've got to be making this up. Yeah, I tend to be quite blunt with people who only come here to complain and who display absolutely no will to read our sources or engage in an honest debate - if you consider criticising your decisions to constitute a personal attack, then so be it. But, pray tell, could you provide any quotes of:
- Me backpedaling out of something I had claimed regarding FET?
- Me claiming (or "admitting") to be a troll?
You seem horribly confused about how the Web works. Every online forum in existence has its trolls. Most everyone on the Internet knows how to recognise them, and knows better than to feed them. I'm really sorry that you didn't get the memo, but since you seem to have completely ignored my advice regarding how to "unravel" FET, I doubt there's much I can do to help.
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{yadda yadda yadda} ....Instead of doing so, you chose to go on an angry rant.
r u 4 srsly?
-Listen friend. Your voluminous retort to my post places you much more comfortably within the confines of a 'rant' than I was to begin with.
I've combed your sources, checked your links, read your FAQ, your wiki....all of it, yet here I still am, debating away. Why? Because it's genuinely interesting when I'm not fending off bush-league stabs at my intellect or trying to wade through convoluted indicators of how things seem to be done around here.
You tell me to read back. Now I'm going to ask you to do the same thing. You never said YOU were a troll, but you plainly said Sandhokan was. My question still stands- If he's a troll and not to be taken seriously, why is he allowed to run amok, further tattering the credibility of this entire community?
Perhaps his presence here is an indicator that yes, there IS a joke being played...and I fell for it. A lot of us did.
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Your voluminous retort to my post places you much more comfortably within the confines of a 'rant' than I was to begin with.
If it helps you sleep at night, sure, feel free to believe that. However, back here in the real world, there is a clear distinction between a long and thorough response, and a rant: a long, passionate tirade about how difficult it is to "unravel" our theory caused by nothing more than a single troll playing a joke on you is definitely a rant.
I've combed your sources, checked your links, read your FAQ, your wiki....all of it, yet here I still am, debating away. Why?
I dunno, but you must have done a poor job at reading up if you've managed to convince yourself that there's a RE conspiracy is part of FET (and thus that it has a scope, which may in turn "seem implausible").
You tell me to read back. Now I'm going to ask you to do the same thing. You never said YOU were a troll, but you plainly said Sandhokan was.
Yes. Well done.
My question still stands- If he's a troll and not to be taken seriously, why is he allowed to run amok, further tattering the credibility of this entire community?
Because this community is based around the principle of largely unrestricted free speech. Contrary to your claims, we do not "run roughshod over" people who disagree with us, so long as they follow the rules. They're welcome to play devil's advocate, or claim that we're wrong about things, or rant about "unravelling" and "voluminous retorts". They can discuss the Earth being round, flat, "dual", hollow; they can start a discussion on whether or not religious discrimination has its merits, talk about the finer points of equality/inequality in the United States, or speculate about whether or not cancer can be cured with lots and lots of garlic. Provided that they do so in the right forum and follow the other rules, their views will not be suppressed.
I appreciate that this might be a foreign concept, but them's the breaks.
Perhaps his presence here is an indicator that yes, there IS a joke being played...and I fell for it. A lot of us did.
Yeah, yeah, someone on Reddit explained to you what Poe's Law is and now you feel very smart. Well done. We definitely haven't heard this one before, especially not so many times that it's now the first question of our FAQ.
If you really struggle so much to tell apart serious posters from those who are having a cheap laugh at your expense, you're going to have a very bad time around here.
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I'm not going to further the pissing contest. You think I'm an idiot, and I think you're a moron. Agree to disagree, now lets move on.
I've combed your sources, checked your links, read your FAQ, your wiki....all of it, yet here I still am, debating away. Why?
I dunno, but you must have done a poor job at reading up if you've managed to convince yourself that there's a RE conspiracy is part of FET (and thus that it has a scope, which may in turn "seem implausible").
Actually I've done a bit of reading beyond your own articles and material. That's how research works. I haven't concluded that there's a conspiracy in the least. However, the very nature of your community suggests that YOU (Perhaps not you personally, but the flat earth community in general) is convinced there is a conspiracy.
How exactly do you explain the conventional science of a round earth when the 'truth' is something only you and a couple of other people happen to know if there isn't a conspiracy to pass along false data or hide the truth? Without a conspiracy on some level, this entire thing comes unglued. If there's nobody keeping a secret, there's no secret. If there's no secret, there's no alternate truth.
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And for the record, I don't frequent reddit, and I'm not familiar with Poe's law. I am perfectly capable of drawing conclusions based on evidence presented to me.
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I'm not going to further the pissing contest. You think I'm an idiot, and I think you're a moron. Agree to disagree, now lets move on.
I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt - that's why we're still talking, despite your extreme unwillingness to participate. But anyway:
I haven't concluded that there's a conspiracy in the least. However, the very nature of your community suggests that YOU (Perhaps not you personally, but the flat earth community in general) is convinced there is a conspiracy.
How exactly do you explain the conventional science of a round earth when the 'truth' is something only you and a couple of other people happen to know if there isn't a conspiracy to pass along false data or hide the truth? Without a conspiracy on some level, this entire thing comes unglued. If there's nobody keeping a secret, there's no secret. If there's no secret, there's no alternate truth.
I already answered your question (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3452.msg82683#msg82683). You ignored it because, again, you were too busy screaming about your hurt feelings.
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I'm not going to further the pissing contest. You think I'm an idiot, and I think you're a moron. Agree to disagree, now lets move on.
I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt - that's why we're still talking, despite your extreme unwillingness to participate. But anyway:
I haven't concluded that there's a conspiracy in the least. However, the very nature of your community suggests that YOU (Perhaps not you personally, but the flat earth community in general) is convinced there is a conspiracy.
How exactly do you explain the conventional science of a round earth when the 'truth' is something only you and a couple of other people happen to know if there isn't a conspiracy to pass along false data or hide the truth? Without a conspiracy on some level, this entire thing comes unglued. If there's nobody keeping a secret, there's no secret. If there's no secret, there's no alternate truth.
I already answered your question (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3452.msg82683#msg82683). You ignored it because, again, you were too busy screaming about your hurt feelings.
Friend, you haven't got a prayer of even being remotely able to hurt my feelings, don't flatter yourself. In my real life I deal with people who do their best to get under my skin with some of the most vile personal insults you can possibly dream of (and some you couldn't. They're very creative sometimes.) You saying I can't read or don't understand a link doesn't even tweak the needle on my feelings-o-meter.
Moving onward:
I don't like the link you supplied. I know you're going to pick that apart- but seriously. Condensed into a few short sentences here's what it says:
"NASA pretended to have a space program for political/military reasons. As for the shape of the earth, everyone already thought it was round, so NASA said 'yeah, screw it. It's round. Why not?'"
The link you reference essentially states that there's been NO scientific validation of a round earth, but this is based on the theory that the space program was a hoax.
So then. As time goes on, and the saviors of the intellectual world (flat earthers) start to emerge with whatever 'data' they're championing, NASA would have to do one of three things:
1. Come out and say "Hold the phone, it turns out the world IS flat!"
2. Stay quiet
3. Lie.
They're not going to come out and admit the world is flat, since that would be an admission of a falsified space program.
They're not staying quiet, so let's kick that right out the door, since they supply photographs and other data which supports a round earth. (Legitimate, falsified, it doesn't matter, they're handing it out.)
If they're lying....brother, that's a conspiracy.
Essentially, if NASA is hiding a faked space program, they're hiding the shape of the earth IF it is indeed not round. It's a string of logic. By now, NASA doesn't THINK anything about the shape of the earth. They know what shape it is.
And if THEY don't, then you saying you do is completely preposterous.
Lets say though for a moment that EVERYTHING about NASA is a sham. That it isn't science at all, but a group of actors or whatever. Wouldn't THEIR silence be conspiracy?
So in conclusion:
A: NASA knows the shape of the earth. In which case either:
1. They're lying about it. or:
2. It's round.
B. NASA is a sham and made up of phony scientists, and has no idea what shape the world is. In this case:
1. Someone's lying to the world.
If either A1 or B1 is the case, then you have a conspiracy, which in my book would quickly grow out of hand and beyond control, bringing us back to my original statements and questions.
If A2 is the case.......
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Friend, you haven't got a prayer of even being remotely able to hurt my feelings, don't flatter yourself. In my real life I deal with people who do their best to get under my skin with some of the most vile personal insults you can possibly dream of (and some you couldn't. They're very creative sometimes.) You saying I can't read or don't understand a link doesn't even tweak the needle on my feelings-o-meter.
"N-no, really, I'm calm. Allow me to explain just how calm I am. You see, I'm very calm. S-seriously."
Look, it's not even that I don't believe you, but it's absolutely hilarious how inexperienced you are at online discussions. Well, that is assuming you're not doing this deliberately.
I don't like the link you supplied.
Boo-hoo.
I know you're going to pick that apart-
At least you're prepared!
So then. As time goes on, and the saviors of the intellectual world (flat earthers) start to emerge with whatever 'data' they're championing, NASA would have to do one of three things:
1. Come out and say "Hold the phone, it turns out the world IS flat!"
2. Stay quiet
3. Lie.
The answer you're looking for is 2 with a little pinch of 3 added for taste.
They're not staying quiet, so let's kick that right out the door, since they supply photographs and other data which supports a round earth. (Legitimate, falsified, it doesn't matter, they're handing it out.)
No, let's not kick that right out the door. Kicking it right out the door would be very silly. I already presented my case for it in the post you're responding to - NASA's funding is slowly, but steadily, being taken away. The whole operation is becoming quieter and quieter over time. They want out, but they can't quit cold turkey or people will start asking questions. This will be a slow process.
Essentially, if NASA is hiding a faked space program, they're hiding the shape of the earth IF it is indeed not round. It's a string of logic. By now, NASA doesn't THINK anything about the shape of the earth. They know what shape it is.
Your "string of logic" does not follow at all. There is no reason to conclude that they know what the shape is. Your logic therefore relies on a false assumption, and, as I'm sure you know, falsity implies all statements (http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55617.html).
And if THEY don't, then you saying you do is completely preposterous.
Oh my. Perhaps you shouldn't have used the word "logic". You can at best say that you don't feel that we'd know if NASA doesn't know. I strongly doubt you can present any logical inference to back up your claim, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Lets say though for a moment that EVERYTHING about NASA is a sham. That it isn't science at all, but a group of actors or whatever. Wouldn't THEIR silence be conspiracy?
Yes. The Wiki article I've linked you to says this much. You could have just read it, you know.
A: NASA knows the shape of the earth. In which case either:
1. They're lying about it. or:
2. It's round.
B. NASA is a sham and made up of phony scientists, and has no idea what shape the world is. In this case:
1. Someone's lying to the world.
Again, as per the Wiki article which you claim to have read (but obviously haven't), B1 is the case. There was no need for elaborate mental gymnastics to establish that - we state it explicitly.
If either A1 or B1 is the case, then you have a conspiracy, which in my book would quickly grow out of hand and beyond control, bringing us back to my original statements and questions.
And why would it grow out of hand and beyond control? Again, you present your feelings and not, as you claim, logic. Lying in show-business is hardly uncommon, and usually fairly easy. There are already multiple sectors of the entertainment industry which aren't exactly transparent about what they're doing. What is now known as WWE didn't publicly acknowledge its falsities for some 40 years of existence.
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Personal attacks again. FE debate 101.
I sincerely hope I'm not the only one to realize how silly you're making yourself look. Keep picking at me though, if it'll make you feel better.
Your conclusion that there is no conspiracy regarding the shape of the earth is simply disregarding rational conclusions based on the data you're presenting.
Especially when you consider that a large portion of the FE community DOES believe there's a conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth. You alone reference the article above, whereas virtually every other flat-earth community member who responded to my initial questions offered debate supporting the idea of such a conspiracy that you deny exists. Consider too the OTHER flat earth communities on the web that speak openly about the academic conspiracy that predates NASA.
Plus the article itself is misleading, saying that there is no conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth, only the nature of the space program. It doesn't take very much effort to link the two, as I had before.
However, you can't bear to admit that there might be a gaping hole in your theory or precious article, and thus continue to run rings around me barking at my presentation and demeanor rather than my rebuttals to your argument. Thus, my assumptions are dismissed by you (and ONLY you) as being the result of a feeble mind and inability to read.
You sir, are arguing against me, the rest of the round earthers, a good portion of your OWN people, and the rational and logical conclusions which can be drawn from your precious link.
All I'm doing is reading said link, and interpreting what it says.
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Personal attacks again. FE debate 101.
Please back up your claims - point out at least one instance in which I attacked you as a person, rather than criticised your decisions, actions, or logic. If you can't do that, please take your claim back.
It's easily done when the tables are turned - you've outright called me a "moron" in this thread. Perhaps you're projecting again?
Your conclusion that there is no conspiracy regarding the shape of the earth is simply disregarding rational conclusions based on the data you're presenting.
Please back up your claims. Name your premises, and demonstrate logical inference between these premises and conclusions.
Especially when you consider that a large portion of the FE community DOES believe there's a conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth. You alone reference the article above, whereas virtually every other flat-earth community member who responded to my initial questions offered debate supporting the idea of such a conspiracy that you deny exists. Consider too the OTHER flat earth communities on the web that speak openly about the academic conspiracy that predates NASA.
I'm afraid it's entirely your prerogative if you choose to trust people you shouldn't trust. You haven't received all that many responses from regulars - most aren't as patient as I am.
Plus the article itself is misleading, saying that there is no conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth, only the nature of the space program. It doesn't take very much effort to link the two, as I had before.
You keep claiming that there's a link. You also keep doing absolutely nothing to substantiate it. Until you do, it won't be taken very seriously.
However, you can't bear to admit that there might be a gaping hole in your theory or precious article, and thus continue to run rings around me barking at my presentation and demeanor rather than my rebuttals to your argument. Thus, my assumptions are dismissed by you (and ONLY you) as being the result of a feeble mind and inability to read.
I'm happy to admit gaping holes when they're pointed out. Again, you've put no effort whatsoever into substantiating your claims. Your demeanour is the only substantial part of your posts thus far.
You sir, are arguing against me, the rest of the round earthers, a good portion of your OWN people, and the rational and logical conclusions which can be drawn from your precious link.
All I'm doing is reading said link, and interpreting what it says.
Once again - as soon as you're able to back your claims up, I'll be happy to entertain them. Stating them over and over and claiming that they're just "logical conclusions" is insufficient. The logical process needs to be demonstrated. Until then, I have better things to do than try and construct your arguments for you.
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Good day. This is my first post, and I came here because I ran into a flat-earther (what do you call yourselves?) in another corner of the web. He claimed to have a truth that the rest of us didn't, and when I asked him a few questions, he vanished. He truly was not a great representative of your community. So, I came here to ask my question in the hopes that I can get a legitimate answer for what I think is the biggest piece of the puzzle.
Apologies if this is covered somewhere else- I did a cursory check before I posted this. If it is, please feel free to redirect me.
Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.
If I am reading this right, The entire theory hinges on a global conspiracy. The world's governments have known your truth for centuries, yet it is kept from us. The 'why' is much less relevant than the 'how.'
Human nature has demonstrated itself to be fickle and unreliable any number of times. Entire generations have been devastated by wars started over minor political, religious, and social ideologies. Governments of many global powers have been toppled time and again by coups and revolutions. (Russian, French, American Revolutions to name a few) With the ebb and flow of governmental control, how do you think it is possible for such a conspiracy to have been protected from the masses for so long? How is it possible that an overthrown government which has caused much malice with its populace- able to convince an incoming power to keep such a secret?
The mere scope of the conspiracy alone seems implausible. Far too much seems to rely on far too many people for there to have not been (by now) some sort of massive leak- a major player in the global community coming forth to decree that everything we know is wrong.
In the age where we are starting to turn an eye to privatized space flights, why would these companies not be shut down immediately by governments for fear of exposure of such a secret? Instead of having them killed off, private companies seeking to go to space for commercial or tourist purposes are flourishing.
It is for THIS reason that I remain skeptical of the idea that the earth is a flat plane. There might be others- again if I were of a scientific mind- but I am not, so I focus on what I know, and I know that throughout the course of history millions of people have been killed simply for the name by which they call God...yet there is a global political conspiracy to hide the shape of the very planet these problems exist on?
I just have yet to be convinced.
Thank you.
The whole world truth is hidden from the masses. If you were part of a ruling minority then everything must be done in secret to keep in power. Once you show your hand you lose the control base. The statement 'Everything you know is wrong' is true because the truth has been hidden, continues to be hidden with lies that are repeatedly pushed at the general public through the media which are controlled by the 'elite'. This goes for the military, the 'health' profession and the armed forces. The earth is governed by the witches from 10,000 years ago by forming religions. The earth's population is controlled by the power behind the apparent power. The witches [poisoners] control the cabals, who control the cartels, who control the banks, who control the governments, who control the goyim. The goyim are the human slave work units, the so called people. So when you doubt that a global conspiracy exists you are playing into the hands of the hidden power. Traditional teaching of history is written by the hidden powers, the winners of wars that were engineered by the hidden powers. New science is also a form of religion unless everything stated as true is questioned. In my opinion, there is no room for belief, make your own mind up based on real evidence that is thoroughly researched personally. In my experience 95% of the information on the internet is misinformation created by the hidden powers. We are deep in the rabbit hole and need to dig our way back out.