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Offline AATW

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9440 on: February 13, 2022, 03:44:50 PM »
Then you might be interested in this article.  It's claimed quite explicitly that he tore up documents he had taken notes on.
There’s no point in debating with someone who trolls and argues in bad faith.
It’s clear what the law is, it’s equally clear that they needed the originals to archive. If they could just print a copy then they wouldn’t have wasted their time taping documents back together.
The only issue worth discussing is whether Trump was being dishonest or just an idiot. My gut feeling is it’s the latter but who knows what goes on in that man’s head.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

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Offline JSS

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9441 on: February 13, 2022, 03:50:32 PM »
No, actually, the quote you posted says that the type of papers he received were scribbled notes, not that he received torn up scribbled notes. It's in a separate paragraph describing the types of documents he received for archiving, not that it was torn up.

The source you provided does not even that say that he threw away and prevented documents from being archived. If a circle around someone's face is an artwork which must be preserved, so is his tearing up of the document.

My source indeed says that.  You wording a claim in a very specific way and then putting in the extremely specific demand that it all be said in a single paragraph doesn't take away the meaning.  That's a game you can play forever. "But he never said this all happened on THIS planet in the same sentence."

Here are the paragraphs in question, with the important words bolded.  It's meaning is quite clear.

Staffers had the fragments of paper collected from the Oval Office as well as the private residence and send it over to records management across the street from the White House for Lartey and his colleagues to reassemble.

“We got Scotch tape, the clear kind,” Lartey recalled in an interview. “You found pieces and taped them back together and then you gave it back to the supervisor.” The restored papers would then be sent to the National Archives to be properly filed away.

Lartey said the papers he received included newspaper clips on which Trump had scribbled notes



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Offline JSS

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9442 on: February 13, 2022, 03:54:44 PM »
Then you might be interested in this article.  It's claimed quite explicitly that he tore up documents he had taken notes on.
There’s no point in debating with someone who trolls and argues in bad faith.
It’s clear what the law is, it’s equally clear that they needed the originals to archive. If they could just print a copy then they wouldn’t have wasted their time taping documents back together.
The only issue worth discussing is whether Trump was being dishonest or just an idiot. My gut feeling is it’s the latter but who knows what goes on in that man’s head.

All I can do is put the evidence on display, and point out statements that are incorrect.  And yes, the law is quite clear, and it's very clear Trump didn't care and tore up documents that were supposed to be preserved. He won't likely suffer any consequences which is sad, but not a surprise.

You are right, you can't ever prove if someone is being dishonest or just an idiot.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9443 on: February 13, 2022, 03:56:50 PM »
https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html

"Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office."

So ... how did they end up at Mar a Lago?  If they were in the legal custody of the Archivist, why would he or she move them there?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9444 on: February 13, 2022, 05:14:53 PM »
https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html

"Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office."

So ... how did they end up at Mar a Lago?  If they were in the legal custody of the Archivist, why would he or she move them there?

Incorrect again. The National Archives and Records Administration admits that this is going on a schedule they expected. Here an an article from February 1st -

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/02/records-transfer-trump-white-house-underway/171770/

Records Transfer from the Trump White House is a Work in Progress

As NARA anticipated, the process of completing the transfer of Trump presidential records into NARA’s physical custody is still ongoing,” an agency spokesperson told Government Executive on Friday. “Necessary funding from [the Office of Management and Budget] was delayed for many weeks after the election, which caused delays in arranging for the transfer of the Trump presidential records into NARA's custody. Even though the transfer of these records is ongoing, NARA assumed legal custody of them on January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 05:21:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #9445 on: February 13, 2022, 05:18:36 PM »
Physical custody v legal custody

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9446 on: February 13, 2022, 05:37:35 PM »
It’s clear what the law is, it’s equally clear that they needed the originals to archive. If they could just print a copy then they wouldn’t have wasted their time taping documents back together.

In the link I just posted it says that the purpose of archiving isn't for quality but to blindly preserve records for 'discovery and use'.

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/02/records-transfer-trump-white-house-underway/171770/

Quote
When asked what it noticed about the quality of the records, NARA said the agency usually doesn’t make statements on quality, “but rather preserves [records] for discovery and use.” Also, “as with any body of records received by the National Archives, it takes a significant period of time for NARA to establish intellectual control and an understanding of the records.” NARA preserved all records under the Presidential Records Act, with few exceptions, such as holds for White House parking passes.

If there is a letter from a Senator that Trump ripped apart those torn pieces of paper are preserved as historical artifacts, for future discovery and use.

If he circled something on newspaper article, it is a historical artifact, and filed away for future discovery and use.

Ripping up a letter does not mean it was the only copy of the letter. As a federal agency there are strict archiving and backup laws on email and stored documents regardless of the Presidential Records Act. There are most likely lots of copies of everything given to the President.

In the same article it says that NARA is receiving over 500 terabytes of electronic records for documents from the Trump Whitehose that fall under the Presidential Records Act. It is pretty dishonest to claim from this that there were documents that were actually destroyed because letters were ripped apart.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 05:55:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9447 on: February 13, 2022, 05:40:39 PM »
https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html

"Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office."

So ... how did they end up at Mar a Lago?  If they were in the legal custody of the Archivist, why would he or she move them there?

Incorrect again. The National Archives and Records Administration admits that this is going on a schedule they expected. Here an an article from February 1st -

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/02/records-transfer-trump-white-house-underway/171770/

Records Transfer from the Trump White House is a Work in Progress

As NARA anticipated, the process of completing the transfer of Trump presidential records into NARA’s physical custody is still ongoing,” an agency spokesperson told Government Executive on Friday. “Necessary funding from [the Office of Management and Budget] was delayed for many weeks after the election, which caused delays in arranging for the transfer of the Trump presidential records into NARA's custody. Even though the transfer of these records is ongoing, NARA assumed legal custody of them on January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

The article you quote says specifically this is NOT on a routine schedule. The delayed funding due to the General Services Administration not certifying the election is cited as delaying the process from what would be the norm.

So if the records are not in NARA's physical custody, who moved them to Mar a Lago and why?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9448 on: February 13, 2022, 06:10:29 PM »
Incorrect again. The National Archives and Records Administration admits that this is going on a schedule they expected. Here an an article from February 1st -

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/02/records-transfer-trump-white-house-underway/171770/

Records Transfer from the Trump White House is a Work in Progress

As NARA anticipated, the process of completing the transfer of Trump presidential records into NARA’s physical custody is still ongoing,” an agency spokesperson told Government Executive on Friday. “Necessary funding from [the Office of Management and Budget] was delayed for many weeks after the election, which caused delays in arranging for the transfer of the Trump presidential records into NARA's custody. Even though the transfer of these records is ongoing, NARA assumed legal custody of them on January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

The article you quote says specifically this is NOT on a routine schedule. The delayed funding due to the General Services Administration not certifying the election is cited as delaying the process from what would be the norm.

So if the records are not in NARA's physical custody, who moved them to Mar a Lago and why?

I didn't say it was a routine schedule. It is happening on the NARA's anticipated schedule. They expected the transfer process to be still occurring as of Feb 1st 2022 when the article was published.

If you read the quote the delay is because they were having issues in their department funding and that NARA and the OMB dropped the ball. As for why the documents are being stored at Mar-a-Lago, I can only speculate it's because there is a SCIF there.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 06:44:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9449 on: February 13, 2022, 06:21:21 PM »
Incorrect again. The National Archives and Records Administration admits that this is going on a schedule they expected. Here an an article from February 1st -

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/02/records-transfer-trump-white-house-underway/171770/

Records Transfer from the Trump White House is a Work in Progress

As NARA anticipated, the process of completing the transfer of Trump presidential records into NARA’s physical custody is still ongoing,” an agency spokesperson told Government Executive on Friday. “Necessary funding from [the Office of Management and Budget] was delayed for many weeks after the election, which caused delays in arranging for the transfer of the Trump presidential records into NARA's custody. Even though the transfer of these records is ongoing, NARA assumed legal custody of them on January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

The article you quote says specifically this is NOT on a routine schedule. The delayed funding due to the General Services Administration not certifying the election is cited as delaying the process from what would be the norm.

So if the records are not in NARA's physical custody, who moved them to Mar a Lago and why?

I didn't say it was a routine schedule. It is happening on the NARA's anticipated schedule. They expected the transfer process to be still occurring as of Feb 1st 2022.

If you read the quote the delay is because they were having issues in their department funding in 2021 and that NARA dropped the ball. As for why the documents are being stored at Mar-a-Lago, I can only speculate it's because there is a SCIF there.

Again, how did they get from the White House to Mar a lago?
If they were delayed in collecting, they would have been at the white house, no?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Trump
« Reply #9450 on: February 13, 2022, 06:40:56 PM »
This is the same Tom that was “outraged” that the FDA hadn’t disclosed the application data for the Pfizer vaccine on a short enough timeline for his liking.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9451 on: February 13, 2022, 06:49:30 PM »
This is the same Tom that was “outraged” that the FDA hadn’t disclosed the application data for the Pfizer vaccine on a short enough timeline for his liking.
He’s clearly trolling. I have no idea why people are continuing to engage.

I hope the map with the hurricane cone which he’s scribbled the extra bit on to extend in to the State he said the hurricane would hit, but which the weather service said it would not, is preserved. It’s a good allegory for him Presidency and the post truth world which we now find ourselves in. It shows how dangerous it is to have a President who genuinely doesn’t know what the truth is, which extends to his followers. It directly led to the events of January 6th last year.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9452 on: February 13, 2022, 11:33:15 PM »
As for why the documents are being stored at Mar-a-Lago, I can only speculate it's because there is a SCIF there.

Sure, no room at the Whitehouse, so the first choice was naturally the former guy's country club. Not any other official Government-operated facility. Not the Capitol building, not any Government office, but a country club. Sure.

AANND.... according to other reports, the SCIF at Mar a Lago was simply a room in the basement that would be used whenever the then-POTUS needed to consult classified papers - I get the impression that all that made it the SCIF was the name, and the fact that Secret Service cordoned it off while in use....
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 08:59:58 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9453 on: February 14, 2022, 03:59:18 PM »
As for why the documents are being stored at Mar-a-Lago, I can only speculate it's because there is a SCIF there.

Sure, no room at the Whitehouse, so the first choice was naturally the former guy's country club. Not any other official Government-operated facility. Not the Capitol building, not any Government office, but a country club. Sure.

If you had read the quotes posted about this so far you would know that the process involves separating out personal records from Presidential records.

https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html

Quote
Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9454 on: February 14, 2022, 04:22:07 PM »
As for why the documents are being stored at Mar-a-Lago, I can only speculate it's because there is a SCIF there.

Sure, no room at the Whitehouse, so the first choice was naturally the former guy's country club. Not any other official Government-operated facility. Not the Capitol building, not any Government office, but a country club. Sure.

If you had read the quotes posted about this so far you would know that the process involves separating out personal records from Presidential records.

https://www.archives.gov/presidential-libraries/laws/1978-act.html

Quote
Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.

So his staff was incapble of doing this either?  Damn.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9455 on: February 14, 2022, 05:31:31 PM »
Both NARA and Newsweek seem to be calling it a common procedure, and that it was an ongoing mutual effort rather than a wrong thing that was done.

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

Quote
The National Archives is denying helping to raid Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, to obtain documents left by former President Donald Trump.

On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.

...

Although exact mementos taken from Mar-a-Lago are currently unknown, it's a common procedure after a president leaves office. According to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, the outgoing president must establish "public ownership of all Presidential records" and follow "all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records."

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9456 on: February 14, 2022, 06:05:58 PM »
Both NARA and Newsweek seem to be calling it a common procedure, and that it was an ongoing mutual effort rather than a wrong thing that was done.

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

Says that NARA didn't actually carry out a raid. Doesn't say that a raid was not carried out by some other agency.

"frenzied packing process in the final days of the administration"

Hogwash. Trump disappeared from view during the lame duck period, and showed no interest in carrying out the duties of the presidency. Looks to me like he and they had weeks or months to organise this, not days
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9457 on: February 14, 2022, 06:12:02 PM »
Both NARA and Newsweek seem to be calling it a common procedure, and that it was an ongoing mutual effort rather than a wrong thing that was done.

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

Quote
The National Archives is denying helping to raid Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, to obtain documents left by former President Donald Trump.

On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.

...

Although exact mementos taken from Mar-a-Lago are currently unknown, it's a common procedure after a president leaves office. According to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, the outgoing president must establish "public ownership of all Presidential records" and follow "all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records."

Mutual efforts = Mr. Trump was told be needs to give stuff back over a year after it was taken and Mr. Trump did not want to fight them on it.

This doesn't seem normal. 
Normal is what everyone else did and Trump did not.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9458 on: February 14, 2022, 08:26:44 PM »
Completely making things up to suit your own narrative. Typical.  ::)

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Offline JSS

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Re: Trump
« Reply #9459 on: February 14, 2022, 08:47:23 PM »
Completely making things up to suit your own narrative. Typical.  ::)

I seem to recall someone else with a habit of doing that.  Typical.  ::)