#### jimster

• 167
##### What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« on: May 25, 2021, 06:37:01 PM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 06:39:56 PM by jimster »

#### Action80

• 1165
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2021, 10:31:46 AM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

#### SteelyBob

• 524
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2021, 11:30:21 AM »
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

Lots of aircraft fly that high. Concorde used to. Military aircraft do it all the time. And his point would have been equally valid at, say, 38,00ft, where airliners are typically found.

#### Action80

• 1165
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2021, 11:56:06 AM »
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

Lots of aircraft fly that high. Concorde used to. Military aircraft do it all the time. And his point would have been equally valid at, say, 38,00ft, where airliners are typically found.

If 50,000 feet wasn't part of the point, the OP would not have included it.

And his point wouldn't be valid or testable regardless.

"Lots," you say.

I think we have stumbled upon a great discovery, keeping in line with the rest of the dysfunctional pattern displayed in previous posts.

Doesn't know the difference between a spherical object and a flat surface ? - check yes

Doesn't know the meaning of the word "lots"?  - check yes, also.

Concorde no longer flies.

No one here is a pilot of any military aircraft that operate at such a ceiling.

Just more BS made up crap from RE, with plenty of cosigners.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 12:48:34 PM by Action80 »

#### scomato

• 118
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2021, 05:57:33 PM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/22/virgin-galactic-completes-third-spaceflight-of-vss-unity.html

Virgin Galactic just a few days ago took a plane to 293,000 feet, went as high as 44,000 feet before it was released by the parent plane.

It's going to be expensive at first, it will cost \$200,000 to fly this journey - but if they can scale and get costs down to the \$50,000 dollar range it will be perfectly feasible for any of us to experience flying up to ~300,000 feet. That makes 50,000 feet look like a chump.

#### Action80

• 1165
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2021, 06:03:32 PM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/22/virgin-galactic-completes-third-spaceflight-of-vss-unity.html

Virgin Galactic just a few days ago took a plane to 293,000 feet, went as high as 44,000 feet before it was released by the parent plane.

It's going to be expensive at first, it will cost \$200,000 to fly this journey - but if they can scale and get costs down to the \$50,000 dollar range it will be perfectly feasible for any of us to experience flying up to ~300,000 feet. That makes 50,000 feet look like a chump.
LOL!

How long as this scam been peddled?

You actually believe this is gonna happen?

Holy crap.

#### scomato

• 118
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2021, 06:59:29 PM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/22/virgin-galactic-completes-third-spaceflight-of-vss-unity.html

Virgin Galactic just a few days ago took a plane to 293,000 feet, went as high as 44,000 feet before it was released by the parent plane.

It's going to be expensive at first, it will cost \$200,000 to fly this journey - but if they can scale and get costs down to the \$50,000 dollar range it will be perfectly feasible for any of us to experience flying up to ~300,000 feet. That makes 50,000 feet look like a chump.
LOL!

How long as this scam been peddled?

You actually believe this is gonna happen?

Holy crap.

What do you mean believe it's gonna happen? It already happened, this is like their third successful flight. As far as space programs go Virgin Galactic is an itty bitty baby, with no useful application beyond being an expensive roller coaster ride.

They just strapped a rocket booster to a glider, that barely dips it's toes into space, what's the conspiracy there? I'd love to hear your theory.

For people with so much disdain for corporations and governments, it's ironic how much flat earthers believe them to have godlike hyper competence that allows them to perpetuate a multigenerational hoax. The government couldn't even stop rioters from breaking into the White House. You would be disappointed to learn that NASA is just a bunch of underpaid nerds who care more about anime and video games than taking over the world.

#### jimster

• 167
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2021, 01:07:03 AM »
I said 50,000 feet to allow enough to angle see the stars, which would be right on the horizon at ground level. I should have said 40,000 feet, because on FE, no problem with the horizon. Does it give you a sense of triumph to have avoided the question of the simple geometry.

The question is, what happens to magnetic compass, gyrocompass, gps, and sighting north star and southern cross at 90 degrees from each side of the plane.

If you keep the north star at 90 degrees, what happens to the southern cross? Does it remain at 90 degrees, and how can this be on the FE map? How can the southern cross appear directly south of two planes traveling opposite directions?

Really, there is no good answer to how a gyroscope works on FE or where is the southern cross, is there? Just another one of those things FE can't explain yet, it would seem. I got no answer.

Try this one:

In the early evening Capetown SA, one can see the southern cross directly south. At the same moment it is predawn morning in Melbourne AUS and the southern cross is visible directly south. How can that be? What happens to a plane that takes off from Capetown and keeps the southern cross at 90 degrees to its left? WHich southern cross does it circle, or does the apparent position of the southern cross travel along the dome?

Are FEs aware when they answer these questions their mental process is to try to think up any possible explanation that allows FE and not to consider the plausibility of their answer? Seems to be all defense strategy, no consideration, and FEs always say we should be skeptical, except for FE.

Where on the FE map is the southern cross? How can it appear on different places on the dome at the same time?

#### SteelyBob

• 524
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2021, 06:14:49 AM »
I said 50,000 feet to allow enough to angle see the stars, which would be right on the horizon at ground level. I should have said 40,000 feet, because on FE, no problem with the horizon. Does it give you a sense of triumph to have avoided the question of the simple geometry.

The question is, what happens to magnetic compass, gyrocompass, gps, and sighting north star and southern cross at 90 degrees from each side of the plane.

If you keep the north star at 90 degrees, what happens to the southern cross? Does it remain at 90 degrees, and how can this be on the FE map? How can the southern cross appear directly south of two planes traveling opposite directions?

Really, there is no good answer to how a gyroscope works on FE or where is the southern cross, is there? Just another one of those things FE can't explain yet, it would seem. I got no answer.

Try this one:

In the early evening Capetown SA, one can see the southern cross directly south. At the same moment it is predawn morning in Melbourne AUS and the southern cross is visible directly south. How can that be? What happens to a plane that takes off from Capetown and keeps the southern cross at 90 degrees to its left? WHich southern cross does it circle, or does the apparent position of the southern cross travel along the dome?

Are FEs aware when they answer these questions their mental process is to try to think up any possible explanation that allows FE and not to consider the plausibility of their answer? Seems to be all defense strategy, no consideration, and FEs always say we should be skeptical, except for FE.

Where on the FE map is the southern cross? How can it appear on different places on the dome at the same time?

We've been round this buoy a few times now in other threads - see this one, for example: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18036.80. I pointed out that it is in fact dark at the same time in three continents, and then posed a similar question.

The FE debating tactic with this one seems to be a pick-and-mix of the following:

- "no it isn't". This is just a flat refusal to accept any evidence whatsoever with no counterpoint or engagement in debate offered
- pointing out that the southern cross isn't actually the true southern pole. Have a good straw man wrestle and point out that it is visible in the northern hemisphere and therefore call the entire astronomical body of knowledge into question.
- if Sigma Octantis, the closest thing to an actual southern pole star, is used instead of the southern cross, point out that it is too dim to be seen, ignoring the fact that it can be seen (it's just not that bright) with the naked eye, or indeed a scope, and, even if it is hard to see...it's still there.
- ignore the thread and hope it goes away
- throw in some vague possibility that the stars I'm seeing in Africa might be different to the stars you are seeing in Australia.
- under no circumstances discuss the possibility of observing a star, then driving or sailing a few hundred miles east or west and observing the same star continuously throughout on the same bearing
- maybe throw in some mag variation to confuse things

I think that about covers it.

#### Action80

• 1165
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2021, 10:36:34 AM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/22/virgin-galactic-completes-third-spaceflight-of-vss-unity.html

Virgin Galactic just a few days ago took a plane to 293,000 feet, went as high as 44,000 feet before it was released by the parent plane.

It's going to be expensive at first, it will cost \$200,000 to fly this journey - but if they can scale and get costs down to the \$50,000 dollar range it will be perfectly feasible for any of us to experience flying up to ~300,000 feet. That makes 50,000 feet look like a chump.
LOL!

How long as this scam been peddled?

You actually believe this is gonna happen?

Holy crap.

What do you mean believe it's gonna happen? It already happened, this is like their third successful flight. As far as space programs go Virgin Galactic is an itty bitty baby, with no useful application beyond being an expensive roller coaster ride.

They just strapped a rocket booster to a glider, that barely dips it's toes into space, what's the conspiracy there? I'd love to hear your theory.

For people with so much disdain for corporations and governments, it's ironic how much flat earthers believe them to have godlike hyper competence that allows them to perpetuate a multigenerational hoax. The government couldn't even stop rioters from breaking into the White House. You would be disappointed to learn that NASA is just a bunch of underpaid nerds who care more about anime and video games than taking over the world.
Oh, the flight took place with just regular folk?

Cool story bro.

#### Action80

• 1165
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2021, 10:39:33 AM »
I said 50,000 feet to allow enough to angle see the stars, which would be right on the horizon at ground level. I should have said 40,000 feet, because on FE, no problem with the horizon. Does it give you a sense of triumph to have avoided the question of the simple geometry.

The question is, what happens to magnetic compass, gyrocompass, gps, and sighting north star and southern cross at 90 degrees from each side of the plane.

If you keep the north star at 90 degrees, what happens to the southern cross? Does it remain at 90 degrees, and how can this be on the FE map? How can the southern cross appear directly south of two planes traveling opposite directions?

Really, there is no good answer to how a gyroscope works on FE or where is the southern cross, is there? Just another one of those things FE can't explain yet, it would seem. I got no answer.

Try this one:

In the early evening Capetown SA, one can see the southern cross directly south. At the same moment it is predawn morning in Melbourne AUS and the southern cross is visible directly south. How can that be? What happens to a plane that takes off from Capetown and keeps the southern cross at 90 degrees to its left? WHich southern cross does it circle, or does the apparent position of the southern cross travel along the dome?

Are FEs aware when they answer these questions their mental process is to try to think up any possible explanation that allows FE and not to consider the plausibility of their answer? Seems to be all defense strategy, no consideration, and FEs always say we should be skeptical, except for FE.

Where on the FE map is the southern cross? How can it appear on different places on the dome at the same time?
In other words, not testable.

Just like I wrote earlier.

Tell you what.

You go ahead, get a couple of cameras, rent a plane, get back to me with all the particulars, and then we will both go up and test out your BS together.

If the facts bear your position out, then I will pay for everything, no question.

#### Kokorikos

• 94
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2021, 04:52:50 AM »

In other words, not testable.

Just like I wrote earlier.

Tell you what.

You go ahead, get a couple of cameras, rent a plane, get back to me with all the particulars, and then we will both go up and test out your BS together.

If the facts bear your position out, then I will pay for everything, no question.

Even if it is not testable, if we had the resources to do this what does FE propose that we will see? Will the Southern Cross and the North Star remain at 90 degrees or not? If not what would we witness?

#### Action80

• 1165
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2021, 10:36:29 AM »

In other words, not testable.

Just like I wrote earlier.

Tell you what.

You go ahead, get a couple of cameras, rent a plane, get back to me with all the particulars, and then we will both go up and test out your BS together.

If the facts bear your position out, then I will pay for everything, no question.

Even if it is not testable, if we had the resources to do this what does FE propose that we will see? Will the Southern Cross and the North Star remain at 90 degrees or not? If not what would we witness?
How am I supposed to know what you or I would see?

I fail to see how any proposition the Southern Cross remains diametrically opposed to the North Star at a consistent 180 degrees could possibly be true.

#### Kokorikos

• 94
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2021, 04:18:50 PM »
Well RE predicts that both the Southern Cross and the North Star would be at 90 degrees to the direction of travel (at opposite sides of course).
If the proposed test is performed and the above is not observed then RE is debunked.

FE needs to come up with some falsifiable predictions of its own. If FE cannot come up with any predictions then how can we determine if it is true or not?

#### jimster

• 167
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2021, 02:50:37 AM »
Action80,

I don't think you want to understand the geometry, perhaps you are not an abstract thinker and can't understand the geometry, so let's go back to a simpler question.

Where is the southern cross when it appears directly south in both Capetown and Sydney at the same time?

Are you going to claim that the southern cross is not visible directlly to the south anywhere with clear sky in the southern hemisphere? We can never know because we can't go together? Would that even work? You could say I hypnotized you or projected a hologram, or, like the bishops with Galileo, just refuse to see.

None of that avoidance or denial impresses me, what would impress me is a coherent explanation of where the southern cross is on FE. RET has such an explanation, FET does not. You may come up with a string of words about not testable, but for the sane, non-cult real world, your attempts to win by refusing to believe something so well known and confirmed is not clever, it is pathetic.

The southern cross is visible directly south everywhere in the southern hemisphere. FE has no plausible explanation. You can say "bla bla bla

#### TomInAustin

• 1349
• Round Duh
##### Re: What happens when I fly west on the wiki map?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2021, 03:19:48 PM »
Suppose you are in an airplane flying at 50,000 feet at the equator on a clear night. The plane has a compass, a gyrocompass, gps, inertial navigation, and a device on each side for determining the direction of a star. You line up carefully so my direction is 270, the compass and gyrocompass say you are going west, and you sight on the north star out one side window and the southern cross from the other side at 90 degrees from your direction of travel (they will be visible just above the horizon). After 15 hours at 500 mph, 7500 mi west of your starting point.

Where will I be if:

I keep the southern cross at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
I keep the north star at 90 degrees and ignore everything else?
If the southern cross and north star and southern cross are both kept at 90 degrees?

We know the north star is directly over the north pole. Where is the southern cross? Is it directly south of my starting point?

Now let;s try 2 planes flying opposite directions, one at 90 (directly east), the other at 270 (directly west). Both planes will be able to keep the north star at 90 degrees, but what happens to the southern cross? can they both keep it at 90 degrees as they travel? At 15,000 miles distance between the planes, what will be the angles of the north star and southern cross?

A diagram of where the two planes are and where the southern cross is would be nice.

RET predicts that both planes can keep north star and southern cross at 90 degrees, compass, gyro, inertial, and gps will all match up. What does FET predict?
RET makes no predictions about planes flying at 50,000 feet.

No one here will ever be in a plane flying at 50,000 feet.

What is the matter with you?

Several private jets fly at 51k feet.  Citation X for example.
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?