The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on August 26, 2018, 06:12:14 PM
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For a good while in my life I did not believe that the idea of a supernatural God was even possible. However, I have since come to the conclusion that God is possible.
This conclusion was sparked from the following: Is it possible for an alien civilization to be as technologically advanced as to seem to have the powers of a God?
My answer is yes. The television series Star Trek, for example, portrays a universe with civilizations in stages of various technological developments. There are civilizations who have not yet reached the stars, there are civilizations who explore the stars, and then there are civilizations so far advanced that they can appear to manipulate matter with a thought.
If you believe that the portrayal of the Star Trek universe is possible, and that we are on a range of technological prowess which will culminate with us having God-like abilities, then the conclusion must be that God is possible.
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Go even farther:
If our universe is a simulation, God is the Admin. God could be a human 100 years in the future with access to computers capable of simulating at least part of a universe.
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That is the most atheist version of God I have ever encountered. 'God can only be aliens with technology'.
You are going down the Russian doll theory, where each universe is created by the people in the universe before. The bigger larger one that your universe resides in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKnpPCQyUec
But who makes the first universe and the first aliens? The Russian Doll on the outside. Technology is something that evolves. It doesn't just be. Only god can just be.
Your version also takes away all the things that a God is supposed to do. An initial creator. Someone with a plan for all of us. And someone we can connect to spiritually. All religions, all Gods ... there is a mechanism whereby man can communicate with the deity, via prayer or sacrifice or meditation. God comes from man's inner spirituality. It is his connection to the universe around him and makes sense of something that otherwise cannot be explained. God needs to be eternal, not only forever after but from the beginning too. And we can't just die. An afterlife is important. God gave us mortal bodies but immortal souls. you just stripped out the thing that makes us special. There is no point in a God in a wondrous heaven, if we never get to go. Everyone gets to go. The Vikings go to Valhalla, the Romans and Greeks visit the underworld and cross the river Styx to the Elysian fields. Christians and Muslims go to heaven, Buddists are reincarnated into a better life here on earth. Aliens are just going to let me die! God is about what is inside you, it has never been about what is outside of the universe. If God isn't personal, accessible and spiritual ... there isn't any point in God. Because otherwise God doesn't offer anything, other than the answer to a question that isn't that important anyway.
You are answering 'How are we here?'. Not 'why are we here?'.
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Tom, it sounds like you've just sort of started thinking along the lines of the ontological argument. That is, you believe God is possible because something very great exists. However, the problem is that you're defining a set of very powerful beings as God. These would be more like god(s) in the Greek/Roman sense. They're very powerful, but they're still really just people. A truly monotheistic styling of God can not exist inside the universe, that is, it's too great to actually fit along with us. God in this sense isn't merely a very powerful being or set of beings, but rather the ultimate being. Very powerful aliens wouldn't be God and they certainly wouldn't be supernatural.
It might be easiest, for example, to imagine God as the universe itself, not a separate entity. You could never become "more powerful than the universe" because this inherently makes no sense, and the universe is the most powerful thing we can conceive of, therefore the universe itself could very well be God. There could be some kind of unimaginably powerful being that exists outside or above the universe, but this no longer matters because it's just an argument about metaphysics at that point.
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That is the most atheist version of God I have ever encountered. 'God can only be aliens with technology'.
Most religions describe God as an alien with powers beyond comprehension. God is not of this earth. He created the earth. Therefore He is an alien by literal definition.
Your version also takes away all the things that a God is supposed to do. An initial creator. Someone with a plan for all of us.
Why can't an alien have a plan for you?
It might be easiest, for example, to imagine God as the universe itself, not a separate entity. You could never become "more powerful than the universe" because this inherently makes no sense, and the universe is the most powerful thing we can conceive of, therefore the universe itself could very well be God. There could be some kind of unimaginably powerful being that exists outside or above the universe, but this no longer matters because it's just an argument about metaphysics at that point.
What is the reasoning for it being impossible to be more powerful than the universe you live in? It is certainly possible on a video game server to be powerful enough with the admin commands to bring the entire server down, or for a nuclear weapon to obliterate the building it exists in.
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What is the reasoning for it being impossible to be more powerful than the universe you live in? It is certainly possible on a video game server to be powerful enough with the admin commands to bring the entire server down, or for a nuclear weapon to obliterate the building it exists in.
Our universe is existence itself. If something happens within our universe (or if our entire universe is suddenly destroyed) than that's still within the realm of "the universe". What happens elsewhere is irrelevant. Imagine that the server admin in your example goes to lunch and eats a sandwich. Does the server "know"? It does not. The only way for the server to know is for the admin to tell it "I just ate a sandwich". Anything that isn't directly applicable to the server doesn't exist because the admin has to directly interact with it. Therefore, powers outside the use case of the server don't exist from the server's standpoint. The admin's reality is not entirely in sync with the server's reality.
Try to describe something that can happen to the universe without it interacting with the universe. Such a description inherently doesn't make sense, and therefore something greater than our universe, but does not interact with it, isn't a part of our existence.
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Well who created the aliens, who was the inital being or matter that self-existed to create them?
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That is the most atheist version of God I have ever encountered. 'God can only be aliens with technology'.
Most religions describe God as an alien with powers beyond comprehension. God is not of this earth. He created the earth. Therefore He is an alien by literal definition.
No. An alien by definition in the sense you're talking about is "a hypothetical or fictional being from another world."
God - the Judeo/Christian God anyway - is the creator, not a creation.
He is outside time and space.
As for whether a God is possible, I don't know how we would determine that it isn't.
Science may develop to the point where we don't "need" a creator to explain things, we're not far off that now, but science is dealing with "how", religion deals with "why".
I have no idea how you would definitively show that God either definitively exists or that a God is not possible.
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What would you call an alien that doesn't have a planet, and lives in a nebula that is outside of our time and space?
Look at the definition of "extra-terrestrial."
ex·tra·ter·res·tri·al
adjective
1.
of or from outside the earth or its atmosphere.
"searches for extraterrestrial intelligence"
God is literally an ET. That doesn't imply anything bad or immoral, but that's exactly what he is described as.
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Tom is right, extra just means "more" and terrestrial refers to Earth. Anything from a place "more than Earth" is an extraterrestrial being.
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What would you call an alien that doesn't have a planet, and lives in a nebula that is outside of our time and space?
Look at the definition of "extra-terrestrial."
ex·tra·ter·res·tri·al
adjective
1.
of or from outside the earth or its atmosphere.
"searches for extraterrestrial intelligence"
God is literally an ET. That doesn't imply anything bad or immoral, but that's exactly what he is described as.
You moved the goal posts. That is the first time in the entire thread you used the word extra-terrestrial and then decided to claim that is what you said all along.
But you didn't . You opened with 'alien civilization[sic]'.
And if you are going down the route of dictionary definitions
civilization
noun
1. an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
2. those people or nations that have reached such a state.
3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group:
This suggests a level of attainment. Civilizations and advanced technologies by definition are things you gradually attain over time through improvement.
Alien ≠ Extra-terrestrial. Alien just means 'foreign to you'. A Mexican could be an illegal alien. I could pitch to you an alien concept. Neither are extra-terrestrial.
You are looking as far as you can for God, when God is as close as can be. God is not about what is outside of the universe. God is about what is inside you. That is what spirituality is.
spiritual
of or relating to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature:
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You win this one, Thork.
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???
It is never about winning in the middle fora. It is about exchanging ideas.
I feel God must exist, and He must exist because we exist. And people need God. No civilisation has become anything without a God of sorts. There are no atheist civilisations that rose up anywhere on the planet at any point in history. And that is because religion sets all the ground rules of co-operation. Don't kill other people, don't steal, don't be hurting people unnecessarily ... order from anarchy. And you enforce this by telling people they will face some kind of afterlife retribution if they don't comply (all gods are omnipotent - coincidence?) ... because it is difficult to watch everyone all the time if they live say in a jungle. But if they think God watches them, they behave better. Those with a readiness to accept religion (to comply) survive, and those who don't will be labelled heretics or whatever and killed by everyone else ... because they are doing wicked things. So I'd conclude a predilection towards religion is probably innate in humans.
And then that makes me think, should I believe in God? Its a choice? Am I happier with or without a God? I'm not talking about a rigid religion, I'm talking about being spiritual. And I like the idea that the universe was created. A fluke makes everything you do seem so irrelevant. I like that we are the most important things in the universe and that Gods and Angels or whatever ... we are in their image. Because being on a tiny dot like a grain of sand again for the blink of an eye makes anything do you not important.
And so I don't think anyone can actually be truly atheist ... because you'd kill yourself. Because there is no point in any of the effort you put into anything if you truly believe it is all a fluke and we are meaningless. Even the most ardent atheist must think there is some point to their existence, even if they won't admit it. Because true atheism is absolute nihilism. People do value each other, they value love, they value their lives. They don't think they are worthless. And I think that comes from evolution. Once you are smart enough to think outside of instinct, you need a reason to bother.
Atheism doesn't bring comfort, or happiness, or well-being, or a sense of self-worth. I don't believe in God because it is the correct answer. I believe in God because it is the answer that makes me happy ... and the answer that must be most compatible with my biology. Spirituality is hardwired into people. It is probably a survival instinct (preventing suicide for example). And sometimes being happy is better than being right.
So back to your OP, I don't see what aliens would bring to a religion, because they would create us for their own ends and they wouldn't care about the actions of any particular individual. We would no longer be important ... just a disposable science experiment. So even if it was the 'right' answer, it isn't the 'best' answer.
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And so I don't think anyone can actually be truly atheist ... because you'd kill yourself. Because there is no point in any of the effort you put into anything if you truly believe it is all a fluke and we are meaningless. Even the most ardent atheist must think there is some point to their existence, even if they won't admit it. Because true atheism is absolute nihilism. People do value each other, they value love, they value their lives. They don't think they are worthless. And I think that comes from evolution. Once you are smart enough to think outside of instinct, you need a reason to bother.
you say the existence of god gives your life meaning. cool, let's assume there's a god. so what's the meaning?
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???
It is never about winning in the middle fora. It is about exchanging ideas.
I feel God must exist, and He must exist because we exist. And people need God. No civilisation has become anything without a God of sorts. There are no atheist civilisations that rose up anywhere on the planet at any point in history. And that is because religion sets all the ground rules of co-operation. Don't kill other people, don't steal, don't be hurting people unnecessarily ... order from anarchy. And you enforce this by telling people they will face some kind of afterlife retribution if they don't comply (all gods are omnipotent - coincidence?) ... because it is difficult to watch everyone all the time if they live say in a jungle. But if they think God watches them, they behave better. Those with a readiness to accept religion (to comply) survive, and those who don't will be labelled heretics or whatever and killed by everyone else ... because they are doing wicked things. So I'd conclude a predilection towards religion is probably innate in humans.
And then that makes me think, should I believe in God? Its a choice? Am I happier with or without a God? I'm not talking about a rigid religion, I'm talking about being spiritual. And I like the idea that the universe was created. A fluke makes everything you do seem so irrelevant. I like that we are the most important things in the universe and that Gods and Angels or whatever ... we are in their image. Because being on a tiny dot like a grain of sand again for the blink of an eye makes anything do you not important.
And so I don't think anyone can actually be truly atheist ... because you'd kill yourself. Because there is no point in any of the effort you put into anything if you truly believe it is all a fluke and we are meaningless. Even the most ardent atheist must think there is some point to their existence, even if they won't admit it. Because true atheism is absolute nihilism. People do value each other, they value love, they value their lives. They don't think they are worthless. And I think that comes from evolution. Once you are smart enough to think outside of instinct, you need a reason to bother.
Atheism doesn't bring comfort, or happiness, or well-being, or a sense of self-worth. I don't believe in God because it is the correct answer. I believe in God because it is the answer that makes me happy ... and the answer that must be most compatible with my biology. Spirituality is hardwired into people. It is probably a survival instinct (preventing suicide for example). And sometimes being happy is better than being right.
So back to your OP, I don't see what aliens would bring to a religion, because they would create us for their own ends and they wouldn't care about the actions of any particular individual. We would no longer be important ... just a disposable science experiment. So even if it was the 'right' answer, it isn't the 'best' answer.
I appreciate your comments. I have a few questions:
"I feel God must exist, and He must exist because we exist."
Why? Why does the existence of humans imply an existence of God?
"I believe in God because it is the answer that makes me happy ..."
I want to believe things that are true, or most likely true. I think that if I believe as many true things as possible and not believe as many false things as possible, then the decisions I make will align best with reality. Hence, the intention of my decisions will have a better chance of matching the outcome, on average. What do you think is the benefit to believing things based on present happiness?
"And so I don't think anyone can actually be truly atheist ... because you'd kill yourself."
I think you may be confusing atheism with nihilism. I am an atheist, and I do not think about killing myself at all. It may be that we are using different definitions of what an atheist is. My definition:
An atheist is someone who rejects the God claim.
From my understanding, there are four options:
Gnostic theist: you believe in god, and claim knowledge of this belief.
Agnostic theist: you believe in god, but do not claim knowledge in that belief (hence faith is required...most Christian religions fall into this category).
Gnostic atheist: you do not believe in god, and claim knowledge of this belief. In other words, you believe evidence exists which disproves god (some call this anti-theism, or strong atheism).
Agnostic atheist: you do not believe in god, but do not claim knowledge in that belief.
I am an agnostic atheist. The last one. So wait....how can I NOT believe in God but also not have knowledge of this? Well, we call this the null hypothesis. When it comes to existence, the null hypothesis is: things (by default) do not exist until we can prove their existence. This includes: bigfoot, the lock ness monster, the flying spaghetti monster, universe-creating pixies, dragons, etc.
In my view, the only rational position is to assume things do not exist until proven otherwise. Imagine what kind of world we would live in if we assumed anything exists until disproved. It would be chaos.
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There are different Civilisations unknown to the knowledge of this Man on this small piece of earth. All what you Imagine already exists.
There are GODS with special powers and you too can become GOD if you practice towards it in this life to have the birth of GOD in the next life.
Gods, Devils, humans, animals, trees etc exist . GODHOOD is possible to every human.
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There are different Civilisations unknown to the knowledge of this Man on this small piece of earth. All what you Imagine already exists.
There are GODS with special powers and you too can become GOD if you practice towards it in this life to have the birth of GOD in the next life.
Gods, Devils, humans, animals, trees etc exist . GODHOOD is possible to every human.
[Citation needed].
There is no evidence of other civilisations. I can imagine a purple donkey overload that steals the teeth of children but that doesn't already exist.
Which GODS, what special powers and if you start to think you are GOD, its time to go to your GP. Not start acting out your fantasy.
GODHOOD is exactly that and by definition, is not possible to mortal men.
If I could pull out my eyes and chuck them at my monitor in disgust without repercussions like blindness, I'd have done that in protest at your last post.
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You should check out the Raelian believers. You get God and aliens all in one.
Rael dot org
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Here's another question.
Is no god possible?
I would claim that we need some form of a creator.
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Go even farther:
If our universe is a simulation, God is the Admin. God could be a human 100 years in the future with access to computers capable of simulating at least part of a universe.
Many scientists have "discovered" that the fact that we live in a simulation is most certainly not true, because numbers like pi that are infinite and other arguments.
Math can be simulated very easily. So unless we can measure a circle's curve infinitely small (which is impossible) then how can we test it?
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Romans 01:21 (http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43#p43) .. for even though they knew God .. they did not honor him as God or give thanks ..
but they became futile in their speculations .. and their foolish heart was darkened
01:22 .. professing to be wise .. they became fools
01:23 .. and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals
and crawling creatures ....... [ aliens ?? ]
01:24 .. therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity .. so that their bodies would be dishonored among them
01:25 .. for they exchanged the truth of God for a lie .. and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator .. who is blessed forever . . . amen
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attributing deity to anything and everything BUT the one who is worthy - the one and only God of all creation
(http://dadmansabode.com/BREAKING-NEWS-400XXb.jpg) (http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3478#p3478)
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Romans 01:21 (http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43#p43) .. for even though they knew God .. they did not honor him as God or give thanks ..
but they became futile in their speculations .. and their foolish heart was darkened
01:22 .. professing to be wise .. they became fools
01:23 .. and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals
and crawling creatures ....... [ aliens ?? ]
01:24 .. therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity .. so that their bodies would be dishonored among them
01:25 .. for they exchanged the truth of God for a lie .. and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator .. who is blessed forever . . . amen
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attributing deity to anything and everything BUT the one who is worthy - the one and only God of all creation
(http://dadmansabode.com/BREAKING-NEWS-400XXb.jpg) (http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3478#p3478)
2 Corinthians 13:5 English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
Is it wrong to question God's existence? I think God encourages it.
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With more and more physicists now entertaining the simulation theory, it seems theists and atheists are slowly coming together in the conclusion that we were created in some sense. The only question that remains is the specific circumstance of our creation, and where on the scale of power our progenitor lies. The creator of our simulation would certainly appear to be supernatural to us, and would possess infinite power over our own universe, if the simulation theory ends up being true.
Certainly, if you consider the idea of an infinite multiverse, and that the most powerful possible being exists within it, then that being would probably be a literal god to us. But I also don’t think it would care in the slightest what we do, whether we go to church on Sundays, or even consider us at all.
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It's sad that Science and Spirituality are enemies. They should not be.
Thr grass sprouts and grows up and makes it's own food from sunlight... man if that aint a fucking miracle what is?
Your daughter has your nose and when she sits and thinks looks just like you...
Wtf? You can't see the miracle in those things? I feel sorry for you.
There is a power greater than we. There must be. All that is... is. Where did it all come from?
If You believe in evolution or creationism or simulation... who or what started it all?
Man there has to be a creator. How can there not be? Everything is so perfect... and you scream accident?
An apple tree doesnt give oranges. The sea breeds fish... these are fucking miracles.
How can you look at the world and only see mechanical operations?
Who robbed you of your spirit? I pity he who says there is no God/Intelligence greater than man or some supposed alien...
Your poor empty soul
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An apple tree doesnt give oranges. The sea breeds fish... these are fucking miracles. There must be. How can there not be? General hysterical incredulity.
No, that’d be an orange tree, fish breed in the sea, with other fish, kinda like you’d expect, I mean don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of wonder, marvelling at sunsets, spider webs and the interconnectedness of nature, it’s just that gods apparent heirs to all this, those that have been given dominion over the fishes of the sea and all (according to one old collection of myths) have made such a spectacular mess of things.
If the science bit is right and we condense the age of the earth down to a day, then we arrived as a species 4-2 seconds (depending) before midnight (God, “Oh shit I forgot the humans!”), in the split second before the chimes we have trashed the place.
I hope there isn’t a god, if there is, he/she is a dick.
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An apple tree doesnt give oranges. The sea breeds fish... these are fucking miracles. There must be. How can there not be? General hysterical incredulity.
No, that’d be an orange tree, fish breed in the sea, with other fish, kinda like you’d expect, I mean don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of wonder, marvelling at sunsets, spider webs and the interconnectedness of nature, it’s just that gods apparent heirs to all this, those that have been given dominion over the fishes of the sea and all (according to one old collection of myths) have made such a spectacular mess of things.
If the science bit is right and we condense the age of the earth down to a day, then we arrived as a species 4-2 seconds (depending) before midnight (God, “Oh shit I forgot the humans!”), in the split second before the chimes we have trashed the place.
I hope there isn’t a god, if there is, he/she is a dick.
^This person thinks they are better than other people. He'd never trash the planet. He isn't one of the terrible humans. He has the right to judge them all because he is above all that. And look at his ability to look through space and time and understand the human psyche. He's so much more intelligent than regular people. Other people only believe in God because they aren't as smart as him.
Welcome to the progressive ... politics individually tailored for the narcissist.
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This person uses personal attacks and denigration to hide the fact he has no answers, other than, I really want there to be something otherwise the universe is too big and I don’t matter, which more than anyone else here, he doesn’t.
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This person uses personal attacks and denigration to hide the fact he has no answers, other than, I really want there to be something otherwise the universe is too big and I don’t matter, which more than anyone else here, he doesn’t.
Of course I have no answers. But neither do you, you ridiculous peacock. You think you can work out the meaning of life with a calculator and a bunch of bearded men with sandals?
The universe isn't too big. I don't care about any of the bits that I can never visit. There is nothing but cold rocks and boiling stars anyway. I'm happy in this little bit of it.
Maybe I don't matter to you. But I matter to someone. And that's enough for me. A sense of belonging that means I don't have to keep turning my eyes to the heavens wondering if life might be better elsewhere.
I'm interconnected and invested in my life right here, right now. I don't think I'm worthless. That the earth should burn. That everything is pointless. That humanity is a disease. I haven't imprisoned myself in my own personal hell.
I hope there isn’t a god
Because you'd rather be worthless than wrong. The progressive, ladies and gentleman.
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Let me walk you through this;
The analogy of how long we have been around (the 4 or so seconds) was in relation to the age of the earth, if you extrapolate that to the universe, and then state that a god put us here for such a fleeting moment (seeing as how quickly, in that time we have destroyed Eden and accordingly are liable to last), for a reason(?). Then that is something I will call bollocks on all day.
The personal hell bit;
Your inability to comprehend that an atheist can exist without killing themselves or being morbidly depressed, is just that, your failure.
Personally, I’m having a great time and intend to do so until such time as I cease to exist, most likely for the rest of eternity, c`est la vie. It certainly doesn’t stop me valuing people or wanting the very best for my children and the earth.
Atheism isn’t meant to “make me happy” or “give me self-worth”, it’s a position I take from the world around me.
My self-worth and genuine happiness, starts and ends with me. I don’t have to manufacture “a reason to bother”, it’s just there, blindingly evident.
You accuse me of rather being worthless than wrong, whilst earlier admitting you’d rather be happy than right, well I see myself as happy and right, you take your pick.
Your philosophy seems to be built on having to compromise truth in favour of finding a meaning and building your happiness on that, to paraphrase you, The regressive, ladies and gentlemen.
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How is it that only progressive’s are atheist/agnostic again?
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Let me walk you through this;
The analogy of how long we have been around (the 4 or so seconds) was in relation to the age of the earth, if you extrapolate that to the universe, and then state that a god put us here for such a fleeting moment (seeing as how quickly, in that time we have destroyed Eden and accordingly are liable to last), for a reason(?). Then that is something I will call bollocks on all day.
Where do you get this stupid idea that we have destroyed the earth? It is still here. Its fine. Its better than fine, it is habitable. We need to change the earth to make our lives better. We need to dig up minerals and elements to make batteries for example. At the end of that, we have something better. A thing that does a thing.
Maybe we need to mine stone for asphalt or dig clay for bricks. At the end of that we have transport links and homes. That is not destroying the earth. It is making earth capable of supporting more people. An improvement. The alternative is living in caves.
The personal hell bit;
Your inability to comprehend that an atheist can exist without killing themselves or being morbidly depressed, is just that, your failure.
Personally, I’m having a great time and intend to do so until such time as I cease to exist, most likely for the rest of eternity, c`est la vie. It certainly doesn’t stop me valuing people or wanting the very best for my children and the earth.
You seem deeply unhappy. The earth is being destroyed. People are evil and stupid. Humans abuse fish by fishing them. Meat is murder. blah blah blah. It is a list of leftist tropes. That's why I picked you up on it. You were not talking about God. You were espousing leftist ideology. And because you all believe all the same things (abortion good, capital punishment bad, feminism good, meritocracy bad, affirmative action good, using a car bad, using an anal dildo good etc) you all have literally no independent ideas of your own, much like the Borg. Leftists don't believe in God. That's the reason you don't. That's it. If they did and along with racist, misogynist and homophobe, people on Twitter also screamed Heretic, you'd believe in God and would be every bit as pious about that as you undoubtedly are about carbon emissions.
Atheism isn’t meant to “make me happy” or “give me self-worth”, it’s a position I take from the world around me.
No. Its a position you take from being a leftist. Leftism is built around individualism. Narcissism. And to that end, you are the most important person on earth. All leftists are. They are selfish self-absorbed twats. There can't be a God, because he didn't choose you to rule everyone else. Your life is very ordinary. And Christianity is about loving each other, not casting the first stone, family values, personal responsibility ... things that tell you that you aren't the centre of the universe. All leftists are atheists. Not all atheists are leftists.
well I see myself as happy and right, you take your pick.
Of course you do. Leftists are never wrong. They never compromise. They never change their mind. They are ideologues. Resistance is futile once the Borg have you.
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Leftism is built around individualism.
hmm
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Okay, I've finished laughing. The Earths fine, really, and I don't believe in god because of leftist indoctrination,the borg, Dildos (?), illuminating.
The question is are you stupid enough to actually believe the bollocks you've written?
I notice that apart from spouting pretty much the whole of the book of Dave and trying to wind me up, you didn't answer the central point, that god, after experimenting with bacteria for millennia and giving the dinosaurs 165 million years of reign, then and only then, it brings us up out of the mud allows us to play with countless pantheons of other gods before revealing himself to a few tribes, an eye-blink ago in the scheme of things.
Oh, but you did, I'm just following the herd, only free thinkers like you or Nigel, Billy Graham, Ian Paisley et al. Are capable of loving their children.
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Why do we put ourselves above all of God's other creatures? How is it that we are ruining the Earth when we are as much a natural part of the Earth as any living thing? We're no different from an ant building an anthill or a beaver building a dam; we reshape the Earth to make our lives easier. To suggest that what we're doing isn't part of the natural order of things is to ascribe a mystical, supernatural quality to our existence, which is something a self-professed atheist would generally be wise not to do as it comes off as hypocritical.
We haven't "trashed" the Earth. We've changed it, same as any other living thing. It will still be here after we're gone.
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Why do we put ourselves above all of God's other creatures?
Because we invented religion (maybe not God, but religion). Dogs didn't. If a dog had written the Gospel according to Fido, maybe the dogs would have been made in God's image, but as it is, God and angel's look like men. And we are above all creatures because we are above all creatures. Top of the food chain. The undisputed champions of earth. Want to take me on, Mr Rhinoceros? I have a rocket launcher. No other animal comes close to us in terms of power or achievements.
How is it that we are ruining the Earth when we are as much a natural part of the Earth as any living thing?
Citation needed. Define ruining? Making more habitable is ruining? Sure, we move stuff around and make things, but everything we use is already here. How can you ruin the earth with the earth? That's ridiculous. Sure, we make a road. It helps us. Makes life better. You can argue that grasshoppers can no longer raise baby grasshoppers there because they prefer grass to asphalt, but its not ruining the earth. Its just making it better for us and worse for grasshoppers. Well lions make life better for lions and worse for wildebeest. Again, pecking order, food chain.
We're no different from an ant building an anthill or a beaver building a dam; we reshape the Earth to make our lives easier. To suggest that what we're doing isn't part of the natural order of things is to ascribe a mystical, supernatural quality to our existence, which is something a self-professed atheist would generally be wise not to do as it comes off as hypocritical.
Oh, we agree.
We haven't "trashed" the Earth. We've changed it, same as any other living thing. It will still be here after we're gone.
We agree again.
Baby Thork and Roundy have joined forces. Come at us, wretched leftists! >o<
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Thork: Leftists think they are better than everyone and that is terrible.
Also Thork: I am better than leftists and that makes me good.
Also...
mfw Thork doesn't realize Roundy is a leftist.
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It’s an undeniable fact that if an ecosystem has, either by introduction (cane toads, Japanese knotweed, rats on islands) or annihilation (see the desk top macho-man and his rocket launchers) an unbalance in predation of a member(S) of that ecosystem, then it becomes liable to, if not collapse, then to a major change to its detriment.
It is also true that the forces of competition will eventually redress that balance in some way, however in the short term that unchecked growth will reduce diversity, cause extinction and unravel bionetworks that have grown along side each other in competition and mutual benefit for millennia.
I do not put humanity as any better than the other creatures other than in one respect, that of our cognitive abilities, we have outgrown our predators to such an extent that we are now free to breed unconstrained, unfortunately the afore mentioned mental superiority doesn’t always come wedded to self-awareness (see Thork and his triumphalist crowing), because there is a debt to be paid for unrestricted growth and consumption, the reliance on our fabled ability to adapt ignores the evidence of collapsed civilisations that precede us, and just how much we are bumping against the physical constraints of an overpopulated earth. When that debt is finally called, good luck with calling on your gods.
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Well the answer to the 'over populated' argument is to not have any children.
So in your house, new rabid libtards will not be created. In my house, god-fearing patriots will be churned out. In other words, it is the ultimate test of ideology as to who has the best vision of the future ... and your stupid ideas will die with you.
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Except I've got three totally indoctrinated offspring whereas I doubt very much if you have figured how to yet.
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Except I've got three totally indoctrinated offspring whereas I doubt very much if you have figured how to yet.
A three step solution to climate change.
1) Hush now Jeremy. Go to sleep under the water.
2) Greta, my little girl. Stop screaming, the fire on you is helping the planet.
3) Fidel my youngest, stop wriggling under the soil. I'm composting you. Don't fight it. Daddy knows best. Remember when I told you about the dying polar bears. That is all your fault. You must help them. Lie still.
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Very christian.
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Very christian.
Christians expect God to intervene just before Abraham thrusts a knife into Isaac. I expect no such mercy for the children of the Glenlivet family. >:(
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Luckily they’re all dyed in the organic wool, atheists, even though a nutty relative tried to get my oldest christened on the QT (really), his birthday is in late October so his parties used to be Halloween themed, to which one of his friends wasn’t allowed as his father was pastor in some backward sect of Christianity, it’s amazing that the dark ages are alive and kicking in your neighbours heads.
Edit; By putting “some backward sect of Christianity” I do not wish you to think that I think, that all Christian or other Abrahamic, far eastern or otherwise designated faiths are less than backward, it’s just some are more so than others. Sorry for any confusion.
Edit2; Dyed for died, doh!
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Why do we put ourselves above all of God's other creatures?
We didn’t put ourselves in that position.
Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
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Citation needed. Define ruining? Making more habitable is ruining? Sure, we move stuff around and make things, but everything we use is already here. How can you ruin the earth with the earth? That's ridiculous. Sure, we make a road. It helps us. Makes life better. You can argue that grasshoppers can no longer raise baby grasshoppers there because they prefer grass to asphalt, but its not ruining the earth. Its just making it better for us and worse for grasshoppers. Well lions make life better for lions and worse for wildebeest. Again, pecking order, food chain.
"How can you ruin the earth with earth?"
Do I have to point out the obvious stupidity of this question?
How do you survive in a world that is poisoned by radioactive particles caused by a nuclear holocaust, for instance?
"It's OK that we must wear radiation suits to survive and frogs grow 4 eyes because by destroying our enemies with nukes we've made the world..... better? ... No, the earth isn't ruined, per se, we just cannot live in it.
@toddler, I think you should go back to "baby" status.... you clearly have not grown up.
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I have held baby status for 2 and a half years. I cannot call myself a baby anymore. Like an Orwellian pig, I now walk on my hind legs.
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For a good while in my life I did not believe that the idea of a supernatural God was even possible. However, I have since come to the conclusion that God is possible.
This conclusion was sparked from the following: Is it possible for an alien civilization to be as technologically advanced as to seem to have the powers of a God?
My answer is yes. The television series Star Trek, for example, portrays a universe with civilizations in stages of various technological developments. There are civilizations who have not yet reached the stars, there are civilizations who explore the stars, and then there are civilizations so far advanced that they can appear to manipulate matter with a thought.
If you believe that the portrayal of the Star Trek universe is possible, and that we are on a range of technological prowess which will culminate with us having God-like abilities, then the conclusion must be that God is possible.
I agree.
The question that came to next (I’ve thought along these lines also) is that how would we distinguish between an advanced being and a God?
Maybe the distinction is not useful generally, but for me it is. Cause an advanced being need not necessarily be omniscient and omnipotent. But traditionally, God is considered to have these qualities.
So the question boils down to: could we somehow distinguish between an advanced being and a God? If not, then I must conclude that we could end up worshipping an evil advanced being.
These ideas trouble me...
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So the question boils down to: could we somehow distinguish between an advanced being and a God? If not, then I must conclude that we could end up worshipping an evil advanced being.
These ideas trouble me...
The really big question is, "What's this being's name?" Whether it's Yaweh, Allah, Vishnu, Xenu or whatever will determine who's going to Hell.
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Whether it's Yaweh, Allah, Vishnu, Xenu or whatever will determine who's going to Hell.
You have a lot to learn about interfaith dialogue. While it is true that some denominations of religion propose a "believe or get fucked" approach, most of the "big" ones largely agree on the lines of "there is one god/pantheon and names don't matter - be a good person and don't be a cynical atheist and you're cool"
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most of the "big" ones largely agree on the lines of "there is one god/pantheon and names don't matter - be a good person and don't be a cynical atheist and you're cool"
Mmm...not really.
Christianity basically says that no-one is good and just being what we'd think of as a "good person" isn't really going to cut it.
That's where Jebus comes to the rescue, but then yes it does come down to belief.
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You have a lot to learn about interfaith dialogue. While it is true that some denominations of religion propose a "believe or get fucked" approach, most of the "big" ones largely agree on the lines of "there is one god/pantheon and names don't matter - be a good person and don't be a cynical atheist and you're cool"
That's what I want to believe but the Christians I know don't buy it. They say that hippy-dippy pantheist propaganda is a lie Satan tells to capture our soul. The Christian posters on this forum warn us regularly that Satan is everywhere.
The fact is that before you can believe in the salvation of Jesus, you have to first believe in the damnation of humanity. It is a foundation of their faith that all people except Christians will burn in Hell unless you pledge fealty or send money. If I say that about Jews or Muslims, it's hate speech, their hate extends to all people.
I'm sure a Christian will come along to say they're all about love even while they condemn us to Hell for eternity.
Over the course of my life, I've studied up on many of the world's religions but none of them met my spiritual needs. So I made up my own religion and let me tell you, my religion kicks ass. We have love, parties, girls and I'm the Pope. It's pretty sweet.
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Whether it's Yaweh, Allah, Vishnu, Xenu or whatever will determine who's going to Hell.
You have a lot to learn about interfaith dialogue. While it is true that some denominations of religion propose a "believe or get fucked" approach, most of the "big" ones largely agree on the lines of "there is one god/pantheon and names don't matter - be a good person and don't be a cynical atheist and you're cool"
I agree. Most of the dominant religions are based on love and acceptance, and acknowledge a vast agreement of core concepts across the different belief systems. Placing religions into a “going to hell” framework ignores the whole purpose they share: for folks to respect each other, care for each other, and work with each other to make things better.
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I'm sure a Christian will come along to say they're all about love even while they condemn us to Hell for eternity.
It is about love, God's love. It's not us that condemns you to anything.
The teaching in Scripture is pretty clear on this, we are all doomed and we don't have the ability to save ourselves.
Luckily, John 3:16.
We aren't saved by our own actions. That's the USP of Christianity actually. Other religions demand you earn yourselves enough spiritual brownie points to get into paradise.
Christianity recognises that you cannot.
Which doesn't mean you can just do what you like and then do the "presto chango deathbed confession", the teachings about how to live are equally clear.
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I really enjoyed reading "The God Delusion" - Richard Dawkins
Basically, if memory serves correctly, his stance is very much evolutionarily based (yes he's an atheist), with the main points being that God was created by people (rather than the other way around) as a coping/control mechanism.
We as people have evolved to need a higher being to put 'faith' in. Historically this was beneficial for societies to survive - a common purpose, common goals, etc. Now-a-days, it is likened to insanity.
In America, and many advanced countries, we no longer need to put faith in a god to be harmonious, to be moral and ethical - to not destroy each other.
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Good question. Yet lets ask the question in a different way.
"Is there any known thing that exists that is observable and quantifiable which is patently inexplicable?"
As an extreme example, what if you dumped out a bucket of 5,000 marbles accidentally and when they came to rest they formed a perfect smiley face along with your name and birthday spelled out!
Such an example will expose a persons convenient disinterest in the difference between accidental, incidental, coincidental, anecdotal, improbable, implausible and impossible.
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Good question. Yet lets ask the question in a different way.
"Is there any known thing that exists that is observable and quantifiable which is patently inexplicable?"
As an extreme example, what if you dumped out a bucket of 5,000 marbles accidentally and when they came to rest they formed a perfect smiley face along with your name and birthday spelled out!
Such an example will expose a persons convenient disinterest in the difference between accidental, incidental, coincidental, anecdotal, improbable, implausible and impossible.
If you have, let's say, one million sets of marbles, with 5,000 in each: then you dump them out in their sets, I'd bet willing to bet you'd see at least one smiley face in there somewhere. It might take another billion or so to get your birthday and name right.... when possibilities are endless, anything is possible.
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Go even farther:
If our universe is a simulation, God is the Admin. God could be a human 100 years in the future with access to computers capable of simulating at least part of a universe.
Oh god, I hope it's not run on a Windows machine, or maybe it is and that explains 2020?