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Messages - TomFoolery

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41
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Gravity
« on: March 11, 2019, 03:08:18 PM »
This may be of some use to you;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force

Fascinating! The half-wave tide height in Hawaii today was about 62ppm!
Am I actually measuring the same force that causes the tides?

42
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Gravity
« on: March 11, 2019, 02:43:59 PM »
There's just too much internal consistency among FE claims for it to be all false, and REers are not investigating these things due to inherent bias.
Hey QED, just curious, what would you say were the two most strongly co-consistent FE claims among this sea of internal consistency?
I've been totally disappointed so far, and nobody can say I didn't give it a fair shake.

In other news, my pendulum gravity meter has been running for a number of hours.
Unfortunately it has a 50ppm disturbance tendencies from people walking around in the house.
But when everyone goes to bed it gets more stable -- usually reading within 1ppm between successive readings.
The swing rate is about 1.5hz.
It looks like there's a sinewave increase in gravity of roughly 40ppm over night?? I wonder if that's because the sun is under the world instead of above the world?
I need to get this in a stable place so it's not upset by house vibrations or temperature.
Fortunately the pendulum is inside a vacuum chamber so not affected by atmospheric pressure changes.

What do you think of that sine-wave like increase in gravity over night?


43
I gotta call this out:
...The light goes in two directions around the ring, and it mixes with itself, and if the laser ring gyro is rotating, the light going past the mixer in one direction is going faster than the light going the other direction....
Yeah, yeah, but you also gotta keep in mind the intended audience.
Quote
The rotation of the Earth doesn't need an RLG to measure it directly though, although RLG's are more sensitive. It can be measured to an acceptable accuracy using a ring interferometer
Interesting, I'll have to mess around with that. I did set up a ring interferometer with a laser diode, a beam splitter, and 3 mirrors. But it was small and didn't seem to detect rotation.

I'll have to try a bigger configuration which I can tilt up to match my latitude. Have you ever done this experiment?

44
Flat Earth Projects / Re: Attempting to actually measure gravity
« on: March 11, 2019, 05:38:17 AM »
Just an update, the apparatus I think is ready for utilization.
It's set up where I don't bump it's table as often, and it's running, gathering an average swing period of the pendulum.

It reports the period (with microsecond accuracy,) every period, and reports a sum time for 250 swings in 24ths of a microsecond.
(It takes about 250 swings to get near the 4 billion limit of an unsigned 32 bit integer.)

It's set up so there is a place under it where I can slip in my lead bricks to see if that changes the frequency.

It's been running for about 12 hours, and it does seem to still be affected when people walk around the house or open/shut the door.
However, the reading for 250-cycle averages is pretty stable, usually staying within a +/-10ppm region, although sometimes going outside that but within a +/-25ppm region.

My plans are to run it for a day without the lead weights under it then a day with, and see if I see a difference of significant digits.
If not then a week and a week.



45
I know you Northern Hemispherics seem to think nothing happens south of the equator. But down here be more than monsters strange things.
There's people over there?

46
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Theory: Formal Development (Part I)
« on: March 11, 2019, 04:52:14 AM »
How in your world, does the gyrocompass also bend around correctly to match your needs?
Modern gyrocompasses auto self correct to local magnetic field, or possibly GPS compass reading.
Old fashioned ones  had to manually be corrected every few minutes because their own drift was probably greater than the earth's rotation anyway.

47
I suppose it would be possible for there to be street lamps on the moon, thus casting shadows.

But if you look at the shadows they all point to a single light, a great distance from the moon.
That light can either be hitting from the side, or straight above, or hitting from the other side, but the shadows always go the same way on any given day so it's not like local light.

I think this is why Mark Sargent has taken the stance that the sun, moon, and stars are projected upon [the dome], by an ultra high definition system, using super LED technology, and a combination of 2D and 3D imaging..


But I'm even having doubts about that being a workable model.

Even if the sun was a projection on the dome, and it was projected to be over behind Alaska for the correct position in the sky to be seen from Australia, it would still be projected onto the dome at a point that was closer to Alaska during the Australian Equinox Sunset.

So we'd have to basically say that it was being holographically projected at a much much lower level.

48
Flat Earth Theory / Re: About the sun and the flat earth model
« on: March 10, 2019, 05:58:53 PM »
Quote
NASA story is that Antarctica is bigger than a dot, and in fact parts of it are as much as 1800 miles away from the geographic north pole

Every point of Antarctica is a lot more than 1800 miles from the north pole but obviously you meant the south pole. I am not sure how far away from the SP this camp on the Antarctic peninsula is but for there to be anything other than 24 hours daylight during the southern hemisphere summer it would need to be north of 66.5 degrees south.

Yeah, sorry, I woke up with a headache. Not thinking the swiftest.

Fixed my post.

Point remains though that someone camping on a peninsula would definitely not be in the 24 hour sun zone.

But even 22 hours of sunlight is a Major Problem for this Tom!

If the sun's circle of light was large enough to  provide 22 hours of sunlight on the Antarctic Peninsula, Alaska would never have darkness. ever.

49
Hi Tom!

I don’t understand the statement that the Earth would be giving off the light in all directions. You mean the light from the Moon? Assuredly not. The Earth’s composition is not uniform, hence the radiation of light from its surface would not be either.
Sorry QED, Yeah, I meant to type "moon's" not "earth's"! I have corrected it:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13663.msg186155#msg186155
Quote
Use the card to cast a shadow on the table. Now without moving the card, change the position of the phone from above the table to closer to the table’s surface. You can produce the same shadow with some experimentation.

It is my experience that folks have a rather poor understanding of how shadows work. One can observe this especially with Conspiracy theorists who question the moon landing photographs.

I'm trying to follow your card example, but I'm not sure  I have it right.
Are you saying hold the card flat above the table let's say 12 inches, then hold the phone light 24 inches above the table, above the card, and shining down?
The shadow should be approximately double the size of the card, right?

Then I move the phone closer to the table, without moving the card, right?
And you're saying the shadow won't change size? or just that it won't change shape?

And I still fail to see how this helps me understand how a self luminous moon would be casting shadows on itself.

50
Flat Earth Theory / Re: About the sun and the flat earth model
« on: March 10, 2019, 04:30:45 PM »
There are time lapse videos on you tube depicting 24 hours of sun, but those are deemed to be fake.

However, tourists can actually camp on the Antarctic Peninsula in summer where you get 21-22 hour days which should be sufficient to disprove those models:

Which is it?

NASA story is that Antarctica is bigger than a dot, and in fact parts of it are as much as 1800 miles away from the geographic north south pole.

So when you go camp on the Antarctic Peninsula, you may be thousands of miles away from the actual north pole, and as such, you would not get 24 hours of sun, but rather 21 to 22 hours.
You'd have to trek 1800 miles inland to get to the pole where you would theoretically get 24 hour sun. And few people want to do that.

EDIT: Fixed north->south

51
On the wiki document it says the sun rise at the equinox varies as much as “multiple sun diameters”

Multiple sun diameters? 4 suns would be 2 degrees. It reminds me of the man who sent his four sons to college and only two of them got degrees.

By my calculations, the sun should set 53 degrees north of due west during the longest day of summer in Australia.
The wiki must be wrong. It should be a hundred and six sun diameters.


52
Sorry tomfoolery didn't mean to steal your name will try to change it, thought it sounded good. Couldn't remember where I seen it.
No need to change your name! You got a great one. I think you're the 4th Tom I've seen here, so it's all cool.

I agree the sun is a problem for flat earth. The best solutions seem to be to somehow theoretically contort the earth into some duality of dimensions to where it's not actually flat but it's still not considered spherical.

53
It is obvious the moon does not emit it's own source of light. I'm not sure why this keeps getting raised in debates. You can use a camera/telescope to look closer at the moon to see it has craters with a light source casting shadows that match perfectly to a spheroid body with an external light source. Based on this alone it is obvious the moon isn't emitting it's own source of light.

Hi Chris!

I quite disagree. Observing shadows does not indicate whether the light is incident or originating from an object. It’s pretty easy to see this. Using the flashlight on your phone and an index card will suffice. Give it a try!

So I guess the typical glober stance is that the shadows on the moon itself prove that the light is not originating from the moon.
Specifically, if you look through a telescope, you can see mountains and craters on the moon, and it appears that the mountains and craters have shadows behind and in them, respectively.

They argue that this proves that the moon itself is no the source of light, otherwise the earth's moon's surface would be giving off the same light all around the mountains and inside the craters as well.

Can you explain how I would use my phone and an index card to emulate the moon's appearance as a light source?

54
Flat Earth Theory / Re: About the sun and the flat earth model
« on: March 10, 2019, 05:17:20 AM »
Hello, I've seen some pictures of a flat earth where the arctic is the middle and the sun going around it from above. But what about in the southern hemispheres summer (dec-feb) where parts of antarctica are in 24hr daylight? Do another 50 suns suddenly come into force? And do they only light up the outsides of the disc?

Many flat earthers say that Antarctica doesn't have 24 hours of sun.
There are time lapse videos on you tube depicting 24 hours of sun, but those are deemed to be fake.

55
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Theory: Formal Development (Part I)
« on: March 09, 2019, 11:49:17 PM »
Do I understand correctly here that the video is stating that people at different latitudes have different celestial equators?

Is that observed to be true?

(Linked to exact location)


I'm not sure I understood how his sun charts out its daily path in the video, just the yearly path.

56
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Distances on the Flat Earth Model
« on: March 08, 2019, 05:47:50 PM »
How does one calculate the distance between two points given their latitude and longitude on the AE/Gleason map and the Monopole map?

That's a little difficult because many FE'ers believe nobody knows the actual size of the flat earth.

Some take the 24k mile circumference of the globe model and unwrap that to say it's about 24,000 miles in diameter.
In that case just divide the 12k mile radius by the 15 degree lines or whatever latitude lines they have.
The equator is also about half way between the center and the outside edge.

57
Flat Earth Projects / Re: Attempting to actually measure gravity
« on: March 08, 2019, 11:47:25 AM »
Since I can't set up a vibration damped table setup, I decided to try the other idea.

I have a small tungsten weight suspended in a vacuum on two fishline strings.

There's a phototransistor taped to one side of the jar, and a small laser diode with the lens removed which is taped to the other side of the jar.

The weight casts a swinging shadow on the phototransistor.

A Microchip measures the average time and swing count and stuff from the phototransistor.
It also sends little pulses at zero crossing to the coils which are taped on the jar to keep the weight swinging.

It also has a small magnet on it so the electromagnet coils (air core) can act upon it.

The idea is to get an average swing rate over one or more days, then put the lead blocks under it, and repeat the measurement, and see if I can't derive the actual force being caused by the lead weights.

The reasoning being that since the force is very weak, I can let this thing run for a long time to increase my signal to noise ratio and my accuracy.
Since my CPU has a resolution of about 1/24000000th of a second, if I average for a day that brings my granularity up to one part in 2 trillion.
That ought to be enough to resolve the gravitational differences to at least a couple significant digits.

But we'll see.



58
Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« on: March 08, 2019, 07:39:45 AM »
All very interesting.

Some of the "gotchas" on these gyro tests is that they can be slightly imbalanced to induce a drift of any rate desired.
The only way to know if you have them really balanced is to see if they have drift, then invert them and operate them upside down, or spin the weight the other way, and see if they drift the same way or the other way.
In other words, you could "balance" them out so they had no drift, even if the earth was rotating by setting an artificial drift rate that compensated.
In fact I had an old timer aircraft gyroscope repair guy tell me a decade ago how he'd ask the small plane customer what their latitude was and when they sent him gyro compasses to calibrate, he'd adjust the little weights inside to get a drift that would counter the earth's rotate at that latitude to minimize the drift for the area the small plane usually flew.

So when I see a video of a gyro humming away with no drift, all balanced out with tape and putty and whatever, it's really cool, but we have no way of knowing if it was balanced in such a way to eliminate the drift at whatever latitude it is, in which case possible earth rotation would have been masked.

Ideally, the gyro would be balanced out with no drift while the axle was pointing at the north star, and the test would be done at near 45 degrees N or S latitude.
Then the thing could be rotated 180 degrees on a level surface without adjusting anything else, and then the axle would be 90 degrees off from the north star, and if the earth was rotating, then suddenly a drift would be seen.

I was playing around with an old vacuum driven gyrocompass  I have but could not get it very stable because the air jet on the weight creates various forces which cause drift which depends on exact RPM and air pressure.

I may have to use an electric one -- or maybe just a large free spinning wheel in a vacuum -- spin it up with compressed air then cap the jar and draw a vacuum to reduce air friction.

59
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Gravity
« on: March 08, 2019, 12:44:56 AM »

Hi Tom,

I'm a former REer and scientist who, after using confirmation bias to support my views for years (and acting like a real jerk on this website BTW), have come around (pun not intended) to FE claims. There's just too much internal consistency among FE claims for it to be all false, and REers are not investigating these things due to inherent bias.

I'm delighted to see your efforts to build a Cavendish experiment. One idea that might be helpful is to use a laser interferometer to produce precise measurements of the deflections. If that is too $$$, you could just affix a laser and point it at a screen set on the other side of the room. Slap a coordinate system on the screen, and you should be able to mark the movements. If done with care, you should be able to measure an oscillation. Calibration would then enable a measurement of G -- at least that's the RE interpretation.

Anyway, this might help decrease uncertainties to provide robust data for further analysis. If we are to find the error in Newtonian gravitation, a careful study of discrepancies will probably be needed, which will require many sig figs that are tricky to get.

Thanks for the tips!

I actually have been able to build a laser interferometer for another approach, but I found that the thing is so extremely sensitive that the vibration level never settles from like the weather or moving in the house.
See my videos here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13892.0

I need to do it again on concrete floor which will have to wait a month or two. I may have to actually do it on a granite slab or other heavy block up on rubber mounts just to eliminate the vibration of the ground.

With Cavendish experiment, the biggest problem I was unable to solve was the torsional properties of the fishline. It seemed to drastically change twist bias when the room temperature changed.

Right now I have a little weight hanging in vacuum jar on two fishline strings, I may build a micro controller to measure the period of the swing using a laser diode and photo detector, and average the swing period over a few minutes.

If I can measure the exact period of the swing then measure it again with 23 pounds of lead right beneath, maybe I'll be able to get the difference swing frequency, and then calculate the force.

60
Here is an experiment using the interferometer pointing up: the same CORIOLIS EFFECT formula was used.

http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Sagnac/SagnacEarth.html

What still needs to be derived is the GLOBAL SAGNAC beat frequency formula for the ring laser gyroscope, a task which is more difficult than the derivation of the GLOBAL SAGNAC EFFECT formula.

That's a really cool experiment. Thanks!

In fact, I would definitely like to try it when I have a budget to get a spool of fiber optic and the like.

So that article seems to indicate that the rotation being measured does have an orientation. He described it as being aligned with a globe earth's orientation.

But on a flat earth, how would the orientation be?

vertical in the center, horizontal at equator, and vertical but opposite direction around the edge?

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