The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Thork on July 25, 2014, 03:50:15 PM
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So the USA decided to execute someone and it took a staggering 2 hours for them to die.
The execution should have taken 10 minutes, his lawyers said, but Wood, 55, gasped more than 600 times before he died.
It ended up taking almost 2 hours to 'humanly' kill him.
Now this wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't used the exact same drugs on someone earlier in the year and the result was
And in January in Ohio, Dennis McGuire appeared to gasp, snort and choke for 25 minutes after he was injected with a two-drug combination of midazolam and hydromorphone.
Now I don't want to go into why the USA is amongst all the other backward countries in having a death penalty because I have a number of questions.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Capital_punishment.PNG)
1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?
This whole fiasco is massively embarrassing for the USA. Not only do you still have a death sentence (might as well have stocks and ducking stools), but you also can't even manage to kill a person properly because your manufacturers are useless and your lawyers prevent you from doing anything properly.
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I'm actually with Thork on this. It's an embarrassment. There's no need for the death penalty. Unfortunately, those of us who realize this are only starting to have a voice vs. the plutocratic throwbacks who run the country.
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Out of curiosity, what do you see as wrong about a death penalty?
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1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
-Because the regulations are too expensive. They send it to other places with less strict regulations.
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
-It's a weird set of laws to appease the "don't kill people" crowd. First off, they don't want a human to directly kill the prisoner. Secondly, a bullet isn't 100% likely to kill someone. And third, if you CAN kill someone definitely with a bullet, it's messy. We like our undertakers to have less work to do.
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
-To appease the "don't kill them" crowd, the drugs are designed to be very peaceful. We don't actually care about animals and if they die of suffocation, we don't care. Humans, however, are different for some reason. The drugs do a combination of things that end up making the victim fall asleep then die. Or something like that.
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?
See above.
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If they're trying to appease the "don't kill crowd" then why don't we just stop killing people altogether? Its pathetic that they think chems are more humane than a point blank bullet to the brain. You're still killing people regardless.
Also, what makes cops so important that killing one nets you the death penalty while killing an average joe just lands you in prison for most of your life? Stop assigning more worth to certain people via laws. Our whole justice system is a corrupt double-standard.
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I would be fine with firing squad or guillotine as execution methods, but apparently we have to kill people with injections to feel "civilized."
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First off, they don't want a human to directly kill the prisoner.
Who administers the injection?
Secondly, a bullet isn't 100% likely to kill someone.
Point blank, its a lot more likely to kill someone than these injections, for which many do survive.
And third, if you CAN kill someone definitely with a bullet, it's messy. We like our undertakers to have less work to do.
Because there is no plastic sheeting in the united states.
If you don't know the answers, Dave, that's ok. You don't have to try to make up desperate versions.
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First off, they don't want a human to directly kill the prisoner.
Who administers the injection?
Whoops. It seems that most states stopped with the comouterized injections for fear of mechanical failure. Now they have a group of people who can't see the prisoner inject drugs. However its a blind injection and all but one inject into a bag. So at the end of the day, no one really knows who killed the prisoner.
Secondly, a bullet isn't 100% likely to kill someone.
Point blank, its a lot more likely to kill someone than these injections, for which many do survive.
Ummmm.... What? Only one man has survived a lethal injection. One. How do you get "many"?
And third, if you CAN kill someone definitely with a bullet, it's messy. We like our undertakers to have less work to do.
Because there is no plastic sheeting in the united states.
*sigh*
Not messy for the room, messy for the body. As in a gaping fucking hole in the head. Also, people watch them die. Its required by law to have witnesses. So yeah, watching someone have a bullet blow open their skull is not the best thing to see.
If you don't know the answers, Dave, that's ok. You don't have to try to make up desperate versions.
For the record, I figure CO poisoning would be best.
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1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?
For the same reason we managed to ruin a gas-can, which until recently used a simple spout and vent and poured liquid just fine, but is now an over-engineered piece of crap that is annoying to use, leaks, and doesn't pour as well as it used to.
Left-wingers.
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1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?
For the same reason we managed to ruin a gas-can, which until recently used a simple spout and vent and poured liquid just fine, but is now an over-engineered piece of crap that is annoying to use, leaks, and doesn't pour as well as it used to.
Left-wingers.
Wait... what?
What gas cans are YOU using? And why?
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I think he's talking about the model that requires you to hold down a lever on the nozzle to pour anything. They're pretty common and they are terrible.
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I think he's talking about the model that requires you to hold down a lever on the nozzle to pour anything. They're pretty common and they are terrible.
I've never seen those.
This is what I see as common:
http://www.zoro.com/g/00091544/k-G4288873?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQjwo82eBRCR1Yr2u-G-sK8BEiQAbrSjVEOlul530AaHIHgMLOQPPwirGpWC_YHbWFFtyOho5P0aApzy8P8HAQ#G4288864
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Wait... what?
What gas cans are YOU using? And why?
Google 'EPA gas can spouts', also I try not to use them. I was cussing plenty when I used a 5 gallon can to fill my quad (which almost takes three hands for that size when it's full), only to have the flexible part (which is loosely attached to the valve assembly) get caught in the opening as I tilted back when the tank was full, fall off into the tank, and sink to the bottom. Luckily had a mechanical grabber that allowed me to fish it out.
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It is strange that it's not more similar to how we kill pets. Sure, sometimes pets have seizures and don't die well but I think it's still faster than 25 min or 2 hours.
When my dog was put down they put him to sleep first and then after the final shot he died in a matter of seconds. It was completely peaceful. As long as the quantities are scaled up, why is it so much easier to kill a dog than a person?
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Wait... what?
What gas cans are YOU using? And why?
Google 'EPA gas can spouts', also I try not to use them. I was cussing plenty when I used a 5 gallon can to fill my quad (which almost takes three hands for that size when it's full), only to have the flexible part (which is loosely attached to the valve assembly) get caught in the opening as I tilted back when the tank was full, fall off into the tank, and sink to the bottom. Luckily had a mechanical grabber that allowed me to fish it out.
Oooohhh. I thought those were just some new version that no one cared about. Didn't realize they were EPA required to be the standard now.
Well, good thing I don't need one.
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It is strange that it's not more similar to how we kill pets. Sure, sometimes pets have seizures and don't die well but I think it's still faster than 25 min or 2 hours.
When my dog was put down they put him to sleep first and then after the final shot he died in a matter of seconds. It was completely peaceful. As long as the quantities are scaled up, why is it so much easier to kill a dog than a person?
Precisely. They kill horses and cattle that way when hey need to be put down.
Dave, can you take your 'gas-can' talk to CN?
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1. Acquire EPA gas can
2. Use boxcutter to make slit in top
3. ?? ? ??
4. Profit. Use duck tape to seal slit for later use
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This might be why firing squad isn't used in the US, though why they aim for the heart instead of the brain is beyond me. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods#firing
Firing Squad
Firing squad still remains a method of execution in Utah if chosen by an inmate before lethal injection became the sole means of execution. The most recent execution by this method was that of John Albert Taylor. By his own choosing, Taylor was executed by firing squad in Utah on January 26, 1996. For execution by this method, the inmate is typically bound to a chair with leather straps across his waist and head, in front of an oval-shaped canvas wall. The chair is surrounded by sandbags to absorb the inmate's blood. A black hood is pulled over the inmate's head. A doctor locates the inmate's heart with a stethoscope and pins a circular white cloth target over it. Standing in an enclosure 20 feet away, five shooters are armed with .30 caliber rifles loaded with single rounds. One of the shooters is given blank rounds. Each of the shooters aims his rifle through a slot in the canvas and fires at the inmate. (Weisberg, 1991) The prisoner dies as a result of blood loss caused by rupture of the heart or a large blood vessel, or tearing of the lungs. The person shot loses consciousness when shock causes a fall in the supply of blood to the brain. If the shooters miss the heart, by accident or intention, the prisoner bleeds to death slowly. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991)
I think I've also heard and argument that the inmate feels the bullet strike them for a split second even if shot in the head, and the pain it causes makes it inhumane.
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I administer midazolam. It's a prn for epileptic seizures.
Tying them to a stake and letting the sea drown them would be more humane. There are better ways than ineffective injections.
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Like don't execute people. It's been shown pretty conclusively that it is an utterly ineffective method of punishment.
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Like don't execute people. It's been shown pretty conclusively that it is an utterly ineffective method of punishment.
??? They never commit a crime ever again. I'm not sure there is any other punishment that is quite so effective.
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Like don't execute people. It's been shown pretty conclusively that it is an utterly ineffective method of punishment.
??? They never commit a crime ever again. I'm not sure there is any other punishment that is quite so effective.
If you are only concerned about one person (it's you so obviously) sure. If you are concerned about society as a whole you are wrong.
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I believe that Death Penalty should remain a badass handgun to kill monsters with, not a justice device.
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If you are only concerned about one person (it's you so obviously) sure. If you are concerned about society as a whole you are wrong.
Keeping a person in prison or attempting to rehabilitate is a greater burden on society than killing them. You don't have to clothe, feed, and give healthcare to a corpse.
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If you are only concerned about one person (it's you so obviously) sure. If you are concerned about society as a whole you are wrong.
Keeping a person in prison or attempting to rehabilitate is a greater burden on society than killing them. You don't have to clothe, feed, and give healthcare to a corpse.
There is a couple problems with this:
-You are ignoring the lengthly appeal process.
-Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
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If you are only concerned about one person (it's you so obviously) sure. If you are concerned about society as a whole you are wrong.
Keeping a person in prison or attempting to rehabilitate is a greater burden on society than killing them. You don't have to clothe, feed, and give healthcare to a corpse.
I don't see the problem here. It's more of a symptom of our society and how we handle money with the upperclass. It's not the criminals fault that they need water/food/clothing to live, it's our country's fault for being so shitty with money that we feel we're hard pressed to actually take care of prisoners.
Legalizing a few drugs and not throwing petty users in prison might be a good start. Prisons should be reserved for real criminals.
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Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
When you murder someone, you are opting out of society. You cannot expect the same society that you are out harming, to rush to your aid with dollars and a lifetime of care. You are given a death sentence, because society doesn't want you any more.
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There is a couple problems with this:
-You are ignoring the lengthly appeal process.
I'm not ignoring it and I certainly don't endorse it. A court system should not be so entrenched is bureaucratic tomfoolery. Even with the appeals process, the death penalty is typically cheaper than a life without parole sentence. Furthermore, I think it is morally objectionable to sentence a person to waste years of their life in a cell compared to outright shooting them in the head.
-Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
Is it? How do you measure your worth, then? Because I'm betting whoever you work for measures it in money.
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>trying to measure "worth" or anything objectively
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>trying to measure "worth" or anything objectively
Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.
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Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
When you murder someone, you are opting out of society. You cannot expect the same society that you are out harming, to rush to your aid with dollars and a lifetime of care. You are given a death sentence, because society doesn't want you any more.
You are once again, and not surprisingly, focused merely on the individual. On a case by case basis, you are perhaps right, but as a punishment that might change behavior in a group (society), it is proven to be ineffective, and therefore propagates the economic burden that others criticize
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There is a couple problems with this:
-You are ignoring the lengthly appeal process.
I'm not ignoring it and I certainly don't endorse it. A court system should not be so entrenched is bureaucratic tomfoolery. Even with the appeals process, the death penalty is typically cheaper than a life without parole sentence. Furthermore, I think it is morally objectionable to sentence a person to waste years of their life in a cell compared to outright shooting them in the head.
Agreed, but it is nevertheless part of the cost of a death sentence.
-Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
Is it? How do you measure your worth, then? Because I'm betting whoever you work for measures it in money.
My job is not the sole measure of my role in society.
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Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
When you murder someone, you are opting out of society. You cannot expect the same society that you are out harming, to rush to your aid with dollars and a lifetime of care. You are given a death sentence, because society doesn't want you any more.
You are once again, and not surprisingly, focused merely on the individual. On a case by case basis, you are perhaps right, but as a punishment that might change behavior in a group (society), it is proven to be ineffective, and therefore propagates the economic burden that others criticize
Nobody claimed that the death penalty was a deterrent. ???
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Society is more than dollars n bitcoins
When you murder someone, you are opting out of society. You cannot expect the same society that you are out harming, to rush to your aid with dollars and a lifetime of care. You are given a death sentence, because society doesn't want you any more.
You are once again, and not surprisingly, focused merely on the individual. On a case by case basis, you are perhaps right, but as a punishment that might change behavior in a group (society), it is proven to be ineffective, and therefore propagates the economic burden that others criticize
Nobody claimed that the death penalty was a deterrent. ???
That's good because it's not.
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Yeah this didn't make sense. Why is it hard to kill people. Give them a sedative and a big dose ofa drug that makes you die. ???
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My job is not the sole measure of my role in society.
It is, actually, unless you're already rich. Your impact on society is limited to how much wealth flows through you. Anything you do, hobbies, charity, etc. require that you have wealth.
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My job is not the sole measure of my role in society.
It is, actually, unless you're already rich. Your impact on society is limited to how much wealth flows through you. Anything you do, hobbies, charity, etc. require that you have wealth.
Incorrect on every front.
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Put them to sleep with anesthesia then suffocate them with a plastic sheet. simple.
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Put them to sleep with anesthesia then suffocate them with a plastic sheet. simple.
You sound like you have some experience.
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Put them to sleep with anesthesia then suffocate them with a plastic sheet. simple.
You sound like you have some experience.
irrelevant.
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Put them to sleep with anesthesia then suffocate them with a plastic sheet. simple.
You sound like you have some experience.
irrelevant.
Not to your victims.
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My victims do not have the capability to hold interest in anything, therefore nothing is relevant to their interests.
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You are once again, and not surprisingly, focused merely on the individual. On a case by case basis, you are perhaps right, but as a punishment that might change behavior in a group (society), it is proven to be ineffective, and therefore propagates the economic burden that others criticize
Nobody claimed that the death penalty was a deterrent. ???
That's good because it's not.
That's right. But it makes no sense to bring that point up unless someone is claiming that it is a deterrent. It's a counter-argument, not an argument providing positive evidence in and of itself.