[Particle Person]

unnatural: something that doesn't serve a bioligical function. Example: homosexuality.

It does, though. Homosexuals are perfectly able to satisfy their biological sexual urges with each other. I'm guessing you meant "something that doesn't result in procreation", in which case your definition is even more dumb, because using it would define the vast majority of the universe as unnatural.

[Vongeo]

Male nipples are unnatural.

Also, Vauxhalls analysis seems very western world privileged. If you live in a hole and get shit on everyday having a miserable life wouldn't be a psychological problem, it would be a fact.

[Ghost of V]

Male nipples are unnatural.

Also, Vauxhalls analysis seems very western world privileged. If you live in a hole and get shit on everyday having a miserable life wouldn't be a psychological problem, it would be a fact.

I realize this is a thing, and I support an individual's right to take their own life if their life is unbearable and full of misery. However, since I do live in the west, there really isn't that problem here and most people facing hardship have many options available to them. We have it much nicer than some other countries. I don't deny that we are incredibly privileged.

Many incredibly privileged people have taken their own lives in the west. I attribute most of these to psychological problems.

[Particle Person]

Every day I thank Jesus for placing me in The West, where misery has been all but eradicated by the many options available to us.

[Ghost of V]

Every day I thank Jesus for placing me in The West, where misery has been all but eradicated by the many options available to us.

Have four kids and get on welfare. Then tell me how bad your life is.

Made possible by Jesus.

[Particle Person]

Every day I thank Jesus for placing me in The West, where misery has been all but eradicated by the many options available to us.

Have four kids and get on welfare. Then tell me how bad your life is.

Made possible by Jesus.

I don't understand. Is it not possible to have four children and be on welfare in the West?

[Vongeo]

I think you are both sarcastically trying to argue the same point.

[spoon]

I've never seen so many coherent posts in a row by Vongeo.

[Vongeo]

My crown is dead, and my necromancer has moved graveyards.

[spoon]

That's more like it.

[Pete Svarrior]

To those of you who argue about the rationality of such a decision: I do personally agree that it's irrational. It's usually emotion-driven, sometimes fueled by instability, and rarely by a careful analysis of pros and cons. Of course, exceptions to that exist (and are probably more numerous than they get credit for), but it's a fair enough generalisation to make.

That said, western society currently claims to believe in a person's freedom to make their own decisions, rational or not. Because of that, I don't think we should focus on preventing suicide, but merely on ensuring that it doesn't screw with other people. Now, I'm fully aware that this approach has many fundamental flaws and couldn't be implemented as-is. If it were, we'd probably see chains of suicide, with one person discovering the other and, in the heat of the moment, also committing suicide. I certainly don't have all the answers here, but I do firmly believe that "it's irrational" is not a showstopper.

Many thanks to those who weighed in on the subject so far. While reading more (which, admittedly, is mostly restricted to shitty niche blogs, since the subject turns out to be somewhat taboo), I discovered a point of contention: suicide notes. Some argued that they should be thorough in explaining one's decision and trying to make sure that nobody's left with haunting questions and a feeling of self-blame; others suggested that such a note may be read by people long after one's death and bring back some haunting or traumatising memories. I'm not sure where I stand on that, but I think I'd be leaning towards the long and thorough note.

[Crudblud]

A thorough, detailed note also gives the person time to analyse their decision, and may actually work as a preventative measure.

[xasop]

I'm a fan of carbon monoxide poisoning myself

As am I. I love driving my car, and I can't think of a better way to go than to drive out to some remote location, hook up a hose to the exhaust and sit there serenely with the engine humming. I'd probably leave a note saying whoever wants the car can just take it; that way, I'm not burdening someone with disposing of my vehicle without some form of payment.

As for being responsible about the emotional side of things, I have never had many friends and I don't think it would be too difficult to make myself disappear mostly unnoticed, if I wanted to. I find it interesting that I'm actually more concerned about the practical ramifications of my suicide than emotional ones. In particular, I acknowledge that I make significant technical contributions, both in my day job and as part of running this place, and I consider that to be the primary value of my life.

Curious. I've never consciously acknowledged that before.

[Pete Svarrior]

I find it interesting that I'm actually more concerned about the practical ramifications of my suicide than emotional ones.

I'm concerned about both. I don't really separate them in my mind, so I don't think of one as more problematic than the other.

[Tau]

I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.

Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Nobody knows their own psychology worse than themselves. People with mental illness who are suicidal are not rational and are, with very few exceptions, in some way delusional.

That said, western society currently claims to believe in a person's freedom to make their own decisions, rational or not. Because of that, I don't think we should focus on preventing suicide, but merely on ensuring that it doesn't screw with other people. Now, I'm fully aware that this approach has many fundamental flaws and couldn't be implemented as-is. If it were, we'd probably see chains of suicide, with one person discovering the other and, in the heat of the moment, also committing suicide. I certainly don't have all the answers here, but I do firmly believe that "it's irrational" is not a showstopper.

Well, let's think about it in terms of consent. It's generally accepted that if someone is drunk, underage, or otherwise incapacitated they can't consent to sex. I see suicide the same way. You have the right to a consenting death, but you have to be able to rationally consent.

My rule of thumb for deciding whether or not suicide is acceptable is to think about whether it would be moral to help the person commit suicide. If they aren't in the right state of mind, it would be incredibly messed up to kill them if they asked. Thus, there's clearly something wrong with them dying in the first place. If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be messed up for you to help them.

_____

I think the most responsible way to commit suicide would involve some kind of a visit to a psychotherapist about it, at the very least.

[Particle Person]

I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.

Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Nobody knows their own psychology worse than themselves. People with mental illness who are suicidal are not rational and are, with very few exceptions, in some way delusional.

Is that a claim that can be cited, or are you just creating generalizations out of personal experiences? Even if most suicidal people are delusional, I will still defend their right to make their own decision regarding their life.

[Rama Set]

I don't know. I do know that suicidal thought are generally a symptom of something else, and that the something else usually also has the result of making people non-rational. People with depression, for example, are not rational and cannot responsibly commit suicide (I say this mainly due to experience). I think there are valid reasons to kill yourself, and I'm totally in favor of euthanasia in hospice care and stuff like that, but outside of those cases I think there's an argument to be made that if you want to commit suicide you are probably not a rational person and therefore cannot consent to your own death.

Nobody should ever decide for somebody else whether or not they are sufficiently lucid to consent to their own death. Nobody knows their own psychology better than themselves.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. Nobody knows their own psychology worse than themselves. People with mental illness who are suicidal are not rational and are, with very few exceptions, in some way delusional.

Is that a claim that can be cited, or are you just creating generalizations out of personal experiences? Even if most suicidal people are delusional, I will still defend their right to make their own decision regarding their life.

It is pretty well substantiated that people's awareness of their own psychological factors is low and people's ability to recall their emotional states accurately is also terrible.

On self-diagnosis:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/debunking-myths-the-mind/201005/the-dangers-self-diagnosis

On emotional memory:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2852439/

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I attempted to take my own life in 2005 with a shit-ton of tylenol pm tablets (100 to be precise). They wouldn't stay in my stomach. I ended up in hospital for five days, and the nut hut for 25 more.

That began a mental odyssey that resulted in 9 more trips to and from the nut hut over the course of the next 4 and a half years, for a grand total of 11 times (I had been in one time before the tylenol as well). Finally, the 11th time, they put me in the Iowa State Mental Hospital at Cherokee for 8 weeks. It was here that I finally got my brain straightened out, got put on some medication that was worth a shit, and got back on the road to living a full life.

Don't get me wrong, I still have my troubles. Anyone with mental illness does. Asberger's Syndrome and Bipolar Disorder can be damned hard to live with. But its a damned sight better than being dead, I'll tell you that.

I don't believe doctors should be allowed to help kill people. What ever happened to "I shall do no harm"? If someone wants to off themselves, that is their personal business, but putting the doctor into the position of becoming a killer is simply indicative of an unconscionable lack of morals. And any doctor who is willing to do it also has few morals, professionally or personally.

Committing suicide is a selfish act. Not taking heroic measures is one thing, but deliberately doing something you know will end your life before its natural termination makes you god of yourself, and denies the Creator of his rightful place in determining the time of one's birth and death.

Of course, most people on this site are atheists, that last paragraph will mean little to most of you. But that is where it is. To deny the Creator of all his rights over you is to be the ultimate in arrogance.

[Pete Svarrior]

Can we please try to stay on topic? This thread is not about whether or not suicide is right, or whether or not it should be committed. The topic is: given that a person is committing suicide, what could they do to diminish the impact of it?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Short of trying to make it look like you died some other way, I don't think you CAN diminish it. I mean, seriously, how do you show your loved ones that you weren't a selfish bastard? That is what suicide is, is the height of selfishness. By committing the act, you prove to all who care about you that you care only about yourself.