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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #460 on: July 02, 2022, 08:48:51 PM »
It doesn't matter what I believe about your post.

Of course it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just curious as to where someone like you with your post history stands on the topic at hand.

You were talking a lot about personhood, victims, etc. So a natural clarifying question, which is kinda at the root of the entire debate on the topic, is when is something considered a "person"?

So, from a person with your POV, it's a curiosity to see where you stand. As in is a blastocyte a person and a potential victim if an abortion occurs at this stage, post-conception, pre-embryo?

Or is it only a person when the blastocyte becomes an embryo 3 weeks after conception?
Now that you finally agree, we can put this to rest.
[/quote]

I would say no, a blastocyte is not a person. So since you said we agree, I'm thinking that you too agree a blastocyte is not a person, therefore, if aborted, it is not a victim and is not murder and is not a crime. Thanks for clarifying & agreeing.

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #461 on: July 02, 2022, 09:50:46 PM »
I vote for changing the term "miscarriage" to "died of natural causes." To call it miscarriage is to pretend like they weren't a fully realized human with hopes and dreams and I just think that's sick. We don't say Jane Doe died of miscarriage at the age of 95!  >o<

https://newsthump.com/2022/05/28/republicans-finally-back-gun-control-after-school-shootings-repositioned-as-560-week-abortions/
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #462 on: July 02, 2022, 10:07:04 PM »
^ITT thread, AATW posts a source claiming abortion = murder.

Thanks, AATW!
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #463 on: July 02, 2022, 10:34:36 PM »
^ITT. A80 thinks that NewsThump is a serious news source.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #464 on: July 03, 2022, 01:14:36 AM »
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #465 on: July 03, 2022, 08:17:32 PM »
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3544588-10-year-old-girl-denied-abortion-in-ohio/

I guess she should have kept her legs closed? Right, GOP?
Obviously the 10 year old should have realized she was pregnant sooner so as not to miss the 6 week cutoff. /s tag just in case anyone can't tell again

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #466 on: July 04, 2022, 09:55:15 AM »
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3544588-10-year-old-girl-denied-abortion-in-ohio/

I guess she should have kept her legs closed? Right, GOP?

O.o
How the hell did that even happen?  Forgive me but I didn't think ovulation happened until age 12-13?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #467 on: July 04, 2022, 02:58:09 PM »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline BillO

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I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #469 on: July 06, 2022, 12:59:04 PM »
Liberal Nurses' Union has the solution to the abortion debacle.

https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/largest-nurses-union-calls-on-congress-to-legalize-abortion-up-until-birth/



Democrat Candidate for Arizona Governor also has the solution.

https://thefederalist.com/2022/04/11/democrat-candidate-for-arizona-governor-supports-abortion-until-birth/



A Richochet writer explains that the abortion ruling was a response to Democrat's extreme abotion-until-birth position:

https://ricochet.com/1280524/sometimes-its-better-to-leave-things-alone/

    You know, if the Democrats had been more willing to compromise on abortion, there might not have been a Dobbs ruling last week. The whole thing started when Mississippi passed a law saying “No more abortions after 15 weeks” (with exceptions for medical emergencies and abnormal fetuses). Abortions rights extremists (let’s face it, abortion up until the day of birth is an extreme position) sued. Had they left it alone, there would have been no case to overturn Roe v. Wade.

    For that matter, Democrats have had numerous chances to back down from their extreme “anytime, any point in pregnancy, for any reason” position on abortion. There have been bills in Congress to restrict late-term abortions to medical necessity — a perfectly reasonable position. Democrats refused to back down, even as they denied that late-term abortions ever took place for reasons other than medical necessity. It’s become a typical frame of argument for Democrats. “This thing isn’t happening, but it must continue.” They use the same argument to defend teaching racialist ideologies (CRT) in public schools.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 01:51:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #470 on: July 06, 2022, 01:18:00 PM »
Liberal Nurses' Union has the solution to the abortion debacle.

https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/largest-nurses-union-calls-on-congress-to-legalize-abortion-up-until-birth/



Yes, because there are healthcare situations where abortions will save a mother's life.  You really struggle with this concept.

EDIT: Here is the letter from the NNU.  They are claiming that "The basic tenets of ethical health care dictate that patients should enjoy autonomy, self-determination, and dignity over their bodies, their lives, and the health care they receive. " and that "The Women’s Health Protection Act establishes a statutory right for health professionals to provide abortion care without any medically unnecessary restrictions or limitations, and a statutory right of patients to receive that care." (emphasis my own).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 01:29:44 PM by Rama Set »
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #471 on: July 06, 2022, 01:26:53 PM »
Incorrect. Democrats want to remove that late term save-the-life-of-the mother abortion restriction and replace it with something vague like allowing abortions if the abortionist thinks the mother's "mental safety" is at risk. See what they were pushing in Virginia -

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47066307

    BBC - Virginia late-term abortion bill labelled 'infanticide'

    A bill that would have removed restrictions on late-term abortions in Virginia has led to a conservative outcry.

    The Democrat who sponsored the measure said it would allow abortions at any point in pregnancy up until the point of childbirth in certain cases.

    Critics said the bill, which failed on Monday to be voted out of subcommittee, would have allowed infanticide.

    ...

    Under current Virginia law, third-trimester abortions are only permitted if the risk to the mother's life is "substantial and irremediable" - language that Democrats wanted removed.

    The Democratic bill sought to allow for late-term abortions if the mother's physical or mental safety were at risk .

    The procedure would also have required sign-off by only one doctor, rather than the three required under existing law.

The law originally said that abortions were only permitted if the risk to the mother's life is "substantial and irremediable". The Democrats wanted to remove this, not add it, as you have erroneously stated.

The same type of vague laws were made in Illinois -

The Illinois law uses the same loopholes which allows for easy third trimester abortions with the same type of vague language seen in other laws.

https://www.chicagonow.com/dennis-byrnes-barbershop/2022/06/the-little-noticed-loophole-in-illinois-law-that-would-allow-abortions-up-to-the-moment-of-birth/

    Abortion in Illinois now is governed by The Reproductive Health Act that proclaims that the procedure is a “fundamental” right. Some reports note that the law supposedly bans abortion after the fetus reaches “viability.”

    Generally overlooked, however, is a provision in the law that says that some exceptions are allowed after viability. For example, the State Journal Register reported, “One can have an abortion in Illinois up to viability, considered to be 24 weeks after conception. After that period of time, an abortion can only be performed if the mother is in medical distress.”

    Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it? So, how does one define “medical distress?” When does the law allow an exception after viability?

    The Illinois law specifically lays out the exception:

    "If the health care professional determines that there is fetal viability, the health care professional may provide abortion care only if, in the professional judgment of the health care professional, the abortion is necessary to protect the life or health of the patient."

    Okay, so how does the law define “health?” Here’s the loophole:

    "'Health of the patient' means all factors that are relevant to the patient’s health and well-being, including, but not limited to, physical, emotional, psychological, and familial health and age."

    In other words, any abortion, even late-term ones, is legal in Illinois if the abortionist simply approves it. He can in his “judgment” conclude that an abortion is necessary for any poorly defined reason. “Health of the patient” includes not just physical health, but also “emotional, psychological and familial health and age.” What is the chance that abortionist would not grant that exception? How emotional does the patient have to be? What is “familial health?” All of these reasons are so subjective that they’re, in effect, an open door.

The text of the bill is here, and the above can be easily verified:

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs5.asp?ActID=3987&ChapterID=64




« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 01:30:56 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #472 on: July 06, 2022, 01:33:11 PM »
Incorrect.

Responding to what the NNU wants with what you think the Democrat legistlation implies legally is pretty dumb, Tom.  You will notice that the law does not absolve medical professionals from the responsibility of their medical ethics.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #473 on: July 06, 2022, 01:38:54 PM »
Incorrect.

Responding to what the NNU wants with what you think the Democrat legistlation implies legally is pretty dumb, Tom.  You will notice that the law does not absolve medical professionals from the responsibility of their medical ethics.

The BBC article clearly explained that the Democrats wanted the law to allow an abortion doctor to provide a late term abortion if they thought the mother's mental safety was at risk. The law originally only allowed for life-saving procedures. The Democrats sought to weaken, and not strengthen, the law. So you were blatantly wrong in what the Democrats wanted.

In fact, you have given no example showing that they only want late term abortions for life-saving situations. You have done nothing except spam falsities on this subject.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 01:46:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #474 on: July 06, 2022, 01:48:12 PM »
tom am i correct that you think the left supports late-term abortions because we just viscerally enjoy killing? are you of the opinion that we support it because we want the baby to develop as much as possible before we kill it because we take pleasure from the idea of killing a child?

be real with me here.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #475 on: July 06, 2022, 01:53:19 PM »
In fact, you have given no example showing that they only want late term abortions for life-saving situations.

I bolded the part where the NNU called for the right to abortions free of medically unnecessary restrictions, did you fail to read?

Quote
You have done nothing except spam falsities on this subject.

Nice try.  You actually sound exactly like Action69.  Maybe you two are alts or separated at birth?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #476 on: July 06, 2022, 02:05:18 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set
I bolded the part where the NNU called for the right to abortions free of medically unnecessary restrictions, did you fail to read?

Wrong again. Lifting unnecessary restrictions means lifting restrictions. The NNU letter issues support for the Woman's Health Protection Act. It says "We urge you to suspend the filibuster in order to pass the Women’s Health Protection Act"

https://www.frc.org/updatearticle/20220225/dems-abortion

"On February 28, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) will bring the Abortion on Demand Until Birth Act, otherwise known as the Women's Health Protection Act (WHPA, S. 1975), to a vote. This legislation codifies Roe v. Wade's precedent of legal abortion through the entirety of pregnancy. The bill passed the House in September and needs 60 votes in order to pass the Senate. If the bill does pass and is signed into law, it will become the first-ever piece of federal legislation legalizing the killing of an unborn child."

The bill was recently reintroduced. See this National Review article from June 15th - https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/06/congressional-democrats-reintroduce-a-radical-abortion-bill/

    Congressional Democrats Reintroduce a Radical Abortion Bill

    The ‘Women’s Health Protection Act’ would strike down nearly all state limits on abortion.

    Congressional Democrats have reintroduced a bill that would invalidate nearly all state-level restrictions on abortion, including existing laws placing limits on late-term abortions.

    The Women’s Health Protection Act, reintroduced last week in both the House and the Senate, would strike down any abortion law or regulation that isn’t applied to a “medically comparable procedure,” and the legislation leaves it up to abortion doctors to determine what counts as a medically comparable procedure.

    That means the federal legislation would strike down popular state laws establishing 24-hour waiting periods before an abortion is performed, informed-consent laws, bans on sex-selective abortions, and many health and safety regulations.

    The bill would also invalidate state limits on late-term abortions: If passed, the Women’s Health Protection Act will require states to permit abortion after an unborn child is viable (that is, old enough to survive outside the womb) if a single doctor asserts that an abortion is necessary to protect the mother’s “health.” The text of the bill explicitly instructs the courts to “liberally” interpret the legislation, and the bill “doesn’t distinguish” between physical and mental health, as its chief Senate sponsor Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut has said.

    Pennsylvania’s longstanding Abortion Control Act, which prohibits abortion after 24 weeks of pregnancy, would therefore run afoul of the Women’s Health Protection Act because the Pennsylvania law includes an exception for later abortions only when a serious physical-health issue exists, not mental-health issues. In 2013, notorious abortionist Kermit Gosnell was convicted under Pennsylvania’s Abortion Control Act for killing 21 infants in utero later than 24 weeks into pregnancy. (Gosnell was also convicted on three counts of murder for killing infants after they had been born.)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 02:18:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #477 on: July 06, 2022, 03:16:24 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set
I bolded the part where the NNU called for the right to abortions free of medically unnecessary restrictions, did you fail to read?

Wrong again. Lifting unnecessary restrictions means lifting restrictions.

I never said differently, you are really struggling here.

Quote
   The NNU letter issues support for the Woman's Health Protection Act. It says "We urge you to suspend the filibuster in order to pass the Women’s Health Protection Act"

Yes, because there are elements in the GOP who would have women carry potentially fatal pregnancies to term because they "care about life".  When you understand that elective third trimester aren't something that happen, then you are comfortable passing this law.  When you are solely concerned with politicizing a wedge issue, then you raise alarm bells about an infant genocide or some dumb shit.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #478 on: July 06, 2022, 05:19:41 PM »
So your tactic is now to defend late-term abortions by claiming that they rarely happen.

Murder is generally rare, but the rareness is irrelevant to whether murder should be illegal. Murder is murder. Wrong is wrong. The National Review article references an abortion provider who was arrested for giving late-term abortions, in violation of his state laws on late-term abortions.

"In 2013, notorious abortionist Kermit Gosnell was convicted under Pennsylvania’s Abortion Control Act for killing 21 infants in utero later than 24 weeks into pregnancy. (Gosnell was also convicted on three counts of murder for killing infants after they had been born.)"

So, it does happen. Whether is it one third trimester baby who is sawed apart, or thousands, wrong is wrong. There are people who want to terminate their late term baby for petty reasons, such as their relationship ending. Laws should be made against murder, no matter how rare. The fact is that Democrats continuously seek to loosen abortion laws and are in favor of legalizing late-term abortion.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 05:30:45 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #479 on: July 06, 2022, 05:30:57 PM »
Tom, you don't find any .... contradiction, say, between the FRC's mission statement and vision?

Vision Statement:
Family Research Council's vision is a prevailing culture in which all human life is valued, families flourish, and religious liberty thrives.
 
Mission of Organization:
Family Research Council's mission is to advance faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?