[Tom Bishop]

A ten day old baby is hardly conscious

Bullshit.
What a stupid comparison.

It actually illustrates your fallacy quite well. Newborn babies are not that developed, and can't pass the tests for consciousness.

https://healthland.time.com/2013/04/26/babys-first-consciousness/

Finding the point at which babies’ reactions change from being purely reflexive to reflecting more intention is leading researches to focus on the first glimmers of conscious thought in infants as young as 5 months old.

“We can prove that the same neuromarkers of consciousness found in adults can be found in babies as early as five months of age,” says lead author Sid Kouider, a researcher at the École Normale Supérieure in Paris, of his new study on the earliest signs of conscious thought in infants that was published in Science.

It is obvious that if a ten day old infant is not conscious, killing it is still murder. Consciousness has nothing to do with it. If you kill a ten day old infant you are denying it a childhood and an adulthood and are are infringing on its path in life. It is plainly murder.

[Iceman]

Killing a ten old baby old baby is obviously murder. Good thing we don’t also refuse to give mothers and newborns the supports they need so that there aren’t unnecessarily high infant mortality rates! Oh wait, spongy old white dudes only care about the sanctity of every human life until it is ejected from a vagina, at which point each little bundle of joy is on its own.

Enjoy the upcoming state-to-state medical tourism, I guess 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Lord Dave]

A ten day old baby is hardly conscious

Bullshit.
What a stupid comparison.

It IS bullshit.
As a parent of two, I can assure you that a 10 day old baby is very conscious, has moods and preferences.  At 10 days, however, the parents are still trying to figure out said child's patterns, what works to sooth, what doesn't, etc...

[stack]

Looks like a bunch of those anti-abortion red States already have built-in abortion:



Maybe someone should be looking at the health and care of kids after they are born, probably asking too much.

[AATW]

It actually illustrates your fallacy quite well. Newborn babies are not that developed, and can't pass the tests for consciousness.

This started when you said:

Why should it really matter at what week the pregnancy is terminated? In each case it is a human life who wants to live.

Which is bullshit. A clump of cells is not a human life, it doesn't "want" anything. You don't believe a zygote is equivalent to a human life. No-one does when push comes to shove which is why even the harshest stances tend to prioritise the mother's life if there's the risk of them dying. And given that you've said elsewhere that kids who grow up to be gay or trans-gender should feel "unloved and ashamed" cut out the crap about how much you care about them.

[Pete Svarrior]

And given that you've said elsewhere that kids who grow up to be gay or trans-gender should feel "unloved and ashamed"

To be fair, he quite obviously misspoke there, which is why I chose not to bring it up in that conversation.

[AATW]

And given that you've said elsewhere that kids who grow up to be gay or trans-gender should feel "unloved and ashamed"

To be fair, he quite obviously misspoke there, which is why I chose not to bring it up in that conversation.

What?
You specifically asked him to clarify if that’s what he meant and he said “yes, certainly”

[Tom Bishop]

Which is bullshit. A clump of cells is not a human life, it doesn't "want" anything.

Actually, it does. It clearly wants to live and not die. This it why it absorbs nutrients, multiplies its cells, repairs itself, and seeks to not die.

You don't believe a zygote is equivalent to a human life.

Purpously killing a zygote is no different than purposely stepping on nest of turtle eggs. You colloquially killed a bunch of turtles when you did that. It doesn't really matter how mature they were. The were developing to hatch at some near future point. They would have become amazing and majestic sea turtles, but you stopped that by killing them. There is no justification there.

And given that you've said elsewhere that kids who grow up to be gay or trans-gender should feel "unloved and ashamed" cut out the crap about how much you care about them.

Wow, dishonest. It's not the teacher's job to comfort them and give advice. If you had quoted the full post you would have found that I said that it wasn't the teacher's job to correct a student's psychological problem or to impart comfort or advice about sexuality, as they are not licensed to do that. That's a matter for psychological services, not an unqualified teacher.

[garygreen]

see y'all this is what i mean about centering the debate on "when does a fetus become a person." that debate cannot be resolved because there is no intrinsic discontinuity between fetus and person.

what matters is the biological relationship between the two. a fetus is literally a parasite. it is physically connected to the mother, and — unlike nearly all other mammalian fetuses — it is in virtually complete control of the mother's body. it takes whatever nutrients and biological resources it wants to from the mother, at will. lmao it's not like, a fucking roommate or something.

Purpously killing a zygote is no different than purposely stepping on nest of turtle eggs. You colloquially killed a bunch of turtles when you did that. It doesn't really matter how mature they are. The were developing to hatch at some near future point. They would have become amazing and majestic sea turtles, but you stopped that by killing them. There is no justification there.

my brother in christ, if a sea turtle connects itself to your blood vessels and starts leeching vitamins and minerals and shit from your blood, you are absolutely justified in disconnecting it.

[markjo]

Which is bullshit. A clump of cells is not a human life, it doesn't "want" anything.

Actually, it does. It clearly wants to live and not die. This it why it absorbs nutrients, multiplies its cells, repairs itself, and seeks to not die.

The same could be said of a tape worm.

[Tom Bishop]

The same could be said of a tape worm.

Yes. And when someone kills a tapeworm they acknowledge that they killed a tapeworm and don't make 101 excuses about its age and status and stage of development to deny and justify what they did.

If you need a continuous line of excuses for why you are not a murderer... it's murder.

[honk]

If you need a continuous line of excuses for why you are not a murderer... it's murder.

Evidence of not being a murderer is actually evidence of being a murderer. Very Kafkaesque.

[rooster]

Do people murder tapeworms?

[Lord Dave]

Do people murder tapeworms?

Only when they lose enough weight.

[AATW]

Purpously killing a zygote is no different than purposely stepping on nest of turtle eggs. You colloquially killed a bunch of turtles when you did that.

And yet many vegetarians eat eggs.
Because they recognise that there is a difference between an egg and a living breathing animal. As do you, for all your continued bullshit about what a clump of cells “wants”. I note you haven’t responded to my thought experiment. Oh, and:

Tom, for the avoidance of doubt: do you propose that some children should feel unloved or ashamed for who they are?

For super-duper-extra avoidance of doubt: this is a yes/no question. We can work out the details afterwards. An answer that doesn't include a clear "yes" or a "no" will be considered a cop-out.

Yes, certainly.

For all your subsequent squirming, Pete asked you a clear yes or no question and that was your response.

[Tom Bishop]

And yet many vegetarians eat eggs.

Actually, they have a problem with eating fertilized eggs -

https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/can-eat-eggs-vegetarian-9307.html

Hens and other female fowl can lay both fertilized and unfertilized eggs. Some vegetarians have ethical issues with eating eggs because they believe that this destroys a developing animal. In reality, this is true only of fertilized eggs. In the commercial egg farming industry, egg-laying hens are kept separate from roosters at all times. This almost completely eliminates the possibility that the roosters will impregnate the hens. As such, almost all commercial eggs are unfertilized and purely vegetarian.

Small-scale and local farmers typically are not as strict about keeping hens and roosters separate. In general, the same is true of farmers who sell the eggs of other types of fowl. As such, you are more likely to eat fertilized eggs occasionally if you purchase from these producers. However, even large-scale commercial farmers cannot completely eliminate the possibility of a fertilized egg sometimes slipping through the cracks. With no way to avoid fertilized eggs entirely, you might want to consider eliminating eggs from your diet if you believe fertilized eggs to be non-vegetarian.

As do you, for all your continued bullshit about what a clump of cells “wants”.

Your problem seems to be not understanding that a biological organism can want something without meeting the human standards of consciousness or sentience.

All stages of living organisms need to eat. A zygote wants food, a fetus wants food, an infant wants food, a child wants food, and a teenager wants food. At what point does it actually "want" food? The answer is that they all want food, obviously. Non-human animals as well, "want" food.

For all your subsequent squirming, Pete asked you a clear yes or no question and that was your response.

The whole discussion was about teachers discussing sexuality with students. The answer is still yes to that, that it's not the teacher's job to to correct a student feeling unloved or ashamed for who they are. You shouldn't be talking to children about sexuality if you are unlicensed to help them with their psychological problem. The teacher can refer, but should avoid taking the role of a licensed counselor. I clearly said that in the post, but you can't just help yourself from REEEEEE'ing about UNLOVED STUDENTS.

[AATW]

And yet many vegetarians eat eggs.

Actually, let me just cherry pick something which I think fits my agenda.

You do you dude. The TL;DR is people have different standards. In fact, the link you provided says that. Do you even read the stuff you cherry pick from? Your link says:

Whether or not you can eat eggs depends largely on the type of vegetarian diet that you follow. Semi-vegetarian and pescetarian diets allow for the consumption of eggs, as well as some animal or fish meats

Some people don't eat animals but do eat fish. Vegans don't eat any animal produce because they believe (rightly, I guess) that animals still have to suffer to produce those things. Even those of us who are meat eaters would mostly be a bit squeamish about eating, say, dog. There is no definitive clear line in all this. You keep pretending you believe that a clump of cells is equivalent to a human life but you don't. Again, you haven't answered my thought experiment because you know it would expose you.

All stages of living organisms need to eat.

And then you randomly switch the language to "want"

And yes, you said lots of other things in the post. But Pete's question was clear and he asked for a clear "yes or no". Your answer was "yes, certainly". I picked you up on it multiple times in the thread and you never backtracked or clarified. You believe that children who feel a way you don't approve of should feel unloved and ashamed. And yet here you are pretending to care about a clump of cells.
Bullshit. No-one is buying it dude.

[Rushy]

Do you make exceptions for:

- Incest - Y/N
- Rape - Y/N
- Life threat to mother - Y/N

No to the first two. Yes to the last one, as it's human life vs human life.

- Morning-After Pills - Y/N
- IUDs - Y/N

IUDs, no, they prevent conception. Morning-after pills, yes.

Do people murder tapeworms?

If we're going to start comparing humans to parasites then I've got a very long list of humans that we can start aborting. They're all quite a bit past the 3rd trimester.

[Iceman]

Just to be safe, let’s lock up anyone who has a miscarriage. They might have done it on purpose. It’s the only way to make sure everyone is putting enough value on human life.
/s

[rooster]

Do people murder tapeworms?

If we're going to start comparing humans to parasites then I've got a very long list of humans that we can start aborting.

I wasn't aware humans could resemble a heavy period and flush down the toilet.