[Action80]

Your point would be better made if you can explain why the Ukrainian government adopted a NAZI greeting/salute as offficial.

And yours would be better made if it had some evidence to support it. What, exactly, are you referring to?

Read the goddamn thread. Jesus.

Even the fucking US press corp was reporting on this shit a couple of years ago.

Like I wrote, a lot of goddamn NAZI apologists... Hillary would be so proud!

[Dr Van Nostrand]

Read the goddamn thread. Jesus.

Even the fucking US press corp was reporting on this shit a couple of years ago.

Like I wrote, a lot of goddamn NAZI apologists... Hillary would be so proud!

Dude, just be honest with yourself. You support Russian rolling across Europe to protect the world from 'Naxis.' Just like Trump. you recognize that Putin, 'has a lot of love.'

That makes you a pinko, commie sympathizer.

[Action80]

Read the goddamn thread. Jesus.

Even the fucking US press corp was reporting on this shit a couple of years ago.

Like I wrote, a lot of goddamn NAZI apologists... Hillary would be so proud!

Dude, just be honest with yourself. You support Russian rolling across Europe to protect the world from 'Naxis.' Just like Trump. you recognize that Putin, 'has a lot of love.'

That makes you a pinko, commie sympathizer.

Your goddamn program will not allow you to keep up with the changing narratives! Your fucking AI is busted!

CN, Kramer...CN.

That is where the Russia Gate bullshit belongs.

[SteelyBob]

Your point would be better made if you can explain why the Ukrainian government adopted a NAZI greeting/salute as offficial.

And yours would be better made if it had some evidence to support it. What, exactly, are you referring to?

Read the goddamn thread. Jesus.

Even the fucking US press corp was reporting on this shit a couple of years ago.

Like I wrote, a lot of goddamn NAZI apologists... Hillary would be so proud!

Oh, Jesus, you're actually claiming the 'Glory to Ukraine' things as evidence of Nazis. I thought you had something better.

You don't seem to understand nuance. It's possible to be critical of people, without necessarily forming a black/white view of them, or indeed an entire country. It's pretty clear, reading around the subject, that Ukraine has some very unpleasant, far right organisations kicking about. But you need to demonstrate - because you have totally failed thus far - that the actual government and wide society is nazi. The history of that greeting is complex - it's absolutely true that it was used during WWII by the far right in Ukraine, but then you also have to bear in mind that Ukrainian nationalism is 100% at odds with the Soviet / Russian ownership of their country - these people remember the holodomor. The Russians hate that slogan, not because it is nazi (it predates Hitler by many years) but because it goes to an independent Ukraine. It's very obvious that it has been adopted by the broader Ukrainian independence movement, and I'm struggling to see much evidence that they are nazi.

However, Dominique Arel, a professor at the University of Ottawa who specializes in Ukrainian studies, argues that citizens in the country today identify with groups such as the OUN and other nationalist movements more in the sense of resistance, such as opposition to Russian aggression, rather than because of an affinity for far-right politics or violence. "The OUN slogans – "Glory to Ukraine," "Glory to heroes" – now routinely chanted by the Ukrainian middle class, many of whom prefer to use Russian in daily life, are thus acquiring a whole new meaning," he said.
Furthermore, Zaitsev believes it is incorrect to link historic slogans such as "Glory to Ukraine" to modern fascism. "During the Euromaidan this slogan basically lost its particular connection to the OUN and became one of the symbols of the pro-European protests," he said, referring to the demonstrations in Kyiv’s Maidan Square in 2013 and 2014 that led to Yanukovych’s ouster. "I do not find any negative sense in this greeting and don't oppose the introduction of it in the army."

https://www.dw.com/en/new-glory-to-ukraine-army-chant-invokes-nationalist-past/a-45215538

Meanwhile, over in Russia...

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1501684628347887628/pu/vid/720x618/3IKwH3Qm5UMsDasC.mp4?tag=12

[Action80]

Your point would be better made if you can explain why the Ukrainian government adopted a NAZI greeting/salute as offficial.

And yours would be better made if it had some evidence to support it. What, exactly, are you referring to?

Read the goddamn thread. Jesus.

Even the fucking US press corp was reporting on this shit a couple of years ago.

Like I wrote, a lot of goddamn NAZI apologists... Hillary would be so proud!

Oh, Jesus, you're actually claiming the 'Glory to Ukraine' things as evidence of Nazis. I thought you had something better.

And I, as usual, KNEW that you had nothing better than to come back with a dismissal of it as if it is not NAZI.

The goddamn AZOV Battalion is NAZI. The goddamn Ukrainian government has adopted a NAZI greeting/salute as official.

You cannot keep up with busted fucking narrative from the rest of the fucking NAZI sympathizers in the DEMOCRATIC/NEOCON/RINO factions running things in DARPA/CIA/MILITARY wings of the US Government and your stuck on making stupid, pathetic dismissals of what your cancel culture asses/partners in crime were so worried about yesterday.

Here, look...I got some more bullshit NAZI apologists, who are cited in official-looking PAPERS!!! (Get it...LOL!!!) and claim to be experts...

Yeah, we know who you are, already.

[Pete Svarrior]

Which president are you talking about?

Perhaps "presidents" would have been more apt - Viktor Yushchenko and Viktor Yanukovych each played their role in fabricating this controversy.

I should have quoted what I'm responding to. My bad. I've edited my previous post, but here it is for clarity:

Nazism in Ukraine must be so miniscule that they officially named a prolific Nazi a national hero in 2010.

[AATW]

Which president are you talking about?

Viktor Yanukovych

I hope his friends call him "Weird Vik".

[Pete Svarrior]

Another point that may be worth highlighting - Bandera receiving an honour that was immediately revoked after it turned out to be a Bad Idea™ is realtively mild in comparison to Sir Oswald Moseley retaining his knighthood. I hope Tom is not in favour of carpet-bombing the UK due to this fact. After all, Britain is clearly rife with Nazis. Rife, I tells ya.

[SteelyBob]

Which president are you talking about?

Perhaps "presidents" would have been more apt - Viktor Yushchenko and Viktor Yanukovych each played their role in fabricating this controversy.

I should have quoted what I'm responding to. My bad. I've edited my previous post, but here it is for clarity:

Nazism in Ukraine must be so miniscule that they officially named a prolific Nazi a national hero in 2010.

Thanks. My admittedly limited understanding was that Yushchenko was the instigator, and his successor unwound the award. Was there more to it than that?

[Pete Svarrior]

Yushchenko is no saint, and he's miscalculated this massively, but the idea was originally one of Yanukovych's talking points. Yushchenko was hoping to appease the more extreme elements in the country to prevent Yanukovych from getting in power. Not enough to outdo the Russian propaganda machine, and it gave Yanukovych an "easy win" early on.

[SteelyBob]

Yushchenko is no saint, and he's miscalculated this massively, but the idea was originally one of Yanukovych's talking points. Yushchenko was hoping to appease the more extreme elements in the country to prevent Yanukovych from getting in power. Not enough to outdo the Russian propaganda machine, and it gave Yanukovych an "easy win" early on.

Ah. I don't get why Yanukovych would have used it originally - wouldn't that have played against his Russian backers?

[SteelyBob]

The goddamn AZOV Battalion is NAZI. The goddamn Ukrainian government has adopted a NAZI greeting/salute as official.

You've just re-stated your original point. You aren't offering anything new. Your use of all-caps also smacks of desperation.

When describing something as Nazi, it's important to explain why. Nazis wear socks, but that doesn't make wearing socks Nazi, because the majority of the population do so without it meaning anything about their fascist leanings. Many nazi themes and symbols predate fascism. The swastika, of course, predates Hitler, but it has become so associated with Nazi Germany that it is very hard to argue that its use today would be anything but Nazi. The 'glory to Ukraine' phrase is clearly far, far more nuanced than, say, a swastika. It has been used by a number of different organisations, in a number of different contexts. The main source of the 'it's Nazi' line is Russia, and Putin, and his army of useful idiots, whose ranks you appear to have joined.

You cannot keep up with busted fucking narrative from the rest of the fucking NAZI sympathizers in the DEMOCRATIC/NEOCON/RINO factions running things in DARPA/CIA/MILITARY wings of the US Government and your stuck on making stupid, pathetic dismissals of what your cancel culture asses/partners in crime were so worried about yesterday.

Here, look...I got some more bullshit NAZI apologists, who are cited in official-looking PAPERS!!! (Get it...LOL!!!) and claim to be experts...

Yeah, we know who you are, already.

All caps...lack of nuance...desperation...QED. Thanks.

[Pete Svarrior]

Ah. I don't get why Yanukovych would have used it originally - wouldn't that have played against his Russian backers?

He was already a puppet - he had no need to convince the Russians, just Ukrainians, and populism is a common theme in these sort of operations.

[Tom Bishop]

Nazism in Ukraine must be so miniscule that they officially named a prolific Nazi a national hero in 2010.

Ah, yes, a Russian puppet president (who was ousted several years later after doing More Bad Things) did a Bad Thing in Ukraine. Therefore, Russia is justified in doing Yet More Bad Things.

It occurs to me that, if we want to tackle Nazism in Ukraine, we'll have to go straight to the source.

Yes, it must be solely the work of an evil president who snuck in a Nazi as a national hero without support of anyone else. That must be it. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/05/20/312719066/hero-or-villain-historical-ukrainian-figure-symbolizes-todays-feud

[Iceman]

By that logic, the Finns are all Nazis, let’s bomb their hospitals.

[Pete Svarrior]

Yes, it must be solely the work of an evil president who snuck in a Nazi as a national hero without support of anyone else.

Yes, that's accurate. It's also why the deed was swiftly undone.

[SteelyBob]

To present the relationship between Bandera and the Nazis as black and white like that is, once again, both desperate and lacking in nuance. Bandera thought the Nazis would help him keep the Russians at bay, but by 1941 they were essentially enemies. He was even imprisoned by them.

As I said above, it is very similar to the IRA and the Nazis - they weren't necessarily aligned, just allies of convenience. As were, we should remember, the Soviets themselves, who viewed Hitler as a useful ally in the early stages of the war. Does that make them Nazis too?

[Tom Bishop]

Moar proof that only one person liked him in the entire country.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-01-01/thousands-of-far-right-ukrainians-honour-nazi-linked-nationalist-stepan-bandera-in-march-through-kyiv



https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/stepan-bandera-divisive-national-icon/

[SteelyBob]

Moar proof that only one person liked him in the entire country.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-01-01/thousands-of-far-right-ukrainians-honour-nazi-linked-nationalist-stepan-bandera-in-march-through-kyiv



https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/stepan-bandera-divisive-national-icon/

That’s a rally by a political party who polled around 2% of the vote at the last election. What’s your point? You can’t seriously be extrapolating that across the rest of the population?

[Tom Bishop]

That’s a rally by a political party who polled around 2% of the vote at the last election. What’s your point? You can’t seriously be extrapolating that across the rest of the population?

Muh denialism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera