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Offline Lord Dave

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The Taliban Won
« on: August 14, 2021, 04:32:42 PM »
From NPR News
Here's Why Biden Is Sticking With The U.S. Exit From Afghanistan https://www.npr.org/2021/08/14/1027552833/heres-why-biden-is-sticking-with-the-u-s-exit-from-afghanistan?sc=18&f=1027552833

Long story short: 20 years of military support and money didn't do shit.  Afghanistan's own military is worthless, being overrun in less than a month.  Likely the whole government will collapse before September.

So the only real solution to dealing with the Taliban and their oppressive practices is genocide.  Pure and simple genocide.  Because 20 years of education, rebuilding, protection, and whatever else we did was worthless.  The moment we let our guard down, they swooped in.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2021, 06:13:23 PM »
I have to wonder at this point if maybe the people of Afghanistan actually prefer taliban rule. They don't seem to be particularly motivated to do much about it.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2021, 06:28:20 PM »
I have to wonder at this point if maybe the people of Afghanistan actually prefer taliban rule. They don't seem to be particularly motivated to do much about it.

That’s a pretty difficult thing to judge. Perhaps people with guns are making it difficult no matter their motivation.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2021, 07:07:17 PM »
I have to wonder at this point if maybe the people of Afghanistan actually prefer taliban rule. They don't seem to be particularly motivated to do much about it.

That’s a pretty difficult thing to judge. Perhaps people with guns are making it difficult no matter their motivation.

I think its a 50/50 mix.
Most of the women would prefer non-taliban rule.
most of the men, Taliban rule.

You can imagine why.

Reports say that young girls are being forcefully married off to taliban soliders.  So... yeah....
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2021, 07:41:11 PM »
America learned a lesson that Britain learned 50 years earlier. You can be the biggest baddest nation on earth with all the best weapons and all the money, but you can't hold back the tide.

The British controlled most of Africa. Those African nations all demanded their independence in the 1960s. They were better off being ruled by the British just as Afghans are better off under NATO control. By the 1980s the Africans had fucked everything up and were now begging Britain for money and support as famine after famine took hold. The Afghans will do the same. They'll rule their country, run it into the ground over the next 20 years and then be worse off than when they started.

Let them do it. Taliban, ISIS, call them whatever you like. They will be Afghans ruling Afghans and they will be independent ... and poor as hell. Its not our job to tell them how to live. We already showed them. If they are too stupid to copy that, they deserve what is coming.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2021, 08:05:14 PM »
I don't know if that's quite comparable.  Those African nations that demanded their independence probably didn't have a psychotic death cult waiting to take them over the instant Britain pulled out.

Also I believe the Afghan government wanted us to stay.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2021, 08:55:30 PM »
I don't know if that's quite comparable.  Those African nations that demanded their independence probably didn't have a psychotic death cult waiting to take them over the instant Britain pulled out.
No. they had military generals who wanted to squeeze every last penny out of the nation for themselves and fuck everyone else. I see little difference between an African warlord running a country and an Afghani warlord running a country.

Also I believe the Afghan government wanted us to stay.
I'll bet most Africans wanted the British to stay. We gave them roads, rail, fresh water supplies, made their farms productive, brought trade, goods, the rule of law. But we couldn't keep fighting everyone to stay in control and we gave most of the empire back.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2021, 09:33:15 PM »
Yeah... child marriages, killing infadels, removal of music on radio, damning women to servatude...

Its shit.  But the Taliban has the guns and the money so they roll into a privdance and demand they surrender, and said providence does. 

Also, having a whole country means they can basically conscript kids have them bomb the shit out of everyone who hurt them: America, France, Britian, Canada...
And just keep doing it over and over again until someone genocides their asses.  Or oil stops being used and they become too poor for guns.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2021, 09:55:51 PM »
Or oil stops being used and they become too poor for guns.
Afghanistan won't be making its money from oil.

Poppies is where it is at in Afghanistan.
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Offline stack

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2021, 12:15:09 AM »
I don't know if that's quite comparable.  Those African nations that demanded their independence probably didn't have a psychotic death cult waiting to take them over the instant Britain pulled out.
No. they had military generals who wanted to squeeze every last penny out of the nation for themselves and fuck everyone else. I see little difference between an African warlord running a country and an Afghani warlord running a country.

A more apt comparison would be the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan throughout the 80’s. After 10 years of carpet bombing the place, the Russians bailed leaving Afghanistan basically as they found it, one of the poorest nations on the planet.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2021, 04:41:03 AM »
Some painful lessons to be learned from this.

1.  We continue to be terrible at nation building. Bush senior knew this.  To bad his son didn't talk to him more.

2.  Our government has been lying about this, a lot.  We've been wondering for the last 19 years, why the hell are we still there if we won?  And every president since then has dodged the question.  And now we know why.  Because the Taliban will overrun the country faster than we can get our people out of there which will look really bad for whoever is in charge.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2021, 08:21:00 AM »
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2021, 08:31:09 AM »
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

They do when it makes terrorists who then comitt acts of violence in the US/NATO nations.
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2021, 08:46:58 AM »
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

They do when it makes terrorists who then comitt acts of violence in the US/NATO nations.

That's just a secondary concern (and a great excuse to go in) to the big homies at the top. A bomb in a mall here and there isn't going to really threaten national security.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2021, 09:02:10 AM »
We were there as an ingress into Russia/China's sphere of influence. We wanted Afghanistan to be an airport and radar station with some weapons testing on the side. China has been pen testing India for a long time now and Afghanistan was supposed to be our counter to that. Do you really think anyone in Washington gives a shit about a bunch of desert nomads, or even about ISIS or the Taliban? It's always been about the greater proxy wars currently engaged by the US/NATO against the commies.

They do when it makes terrorists who then comitt acts of violence in the US/NATO nations.

That's just a secondary concern (and a great excuse to go in) to the big homies at the top. A bomb in a mall here and there isn't going to really threaten national security.
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

And when public fear is high, they look to their elected leader to make them safe.  And if they don't, then they aren't going to be the leader anymore and we get Trump.
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2021, 09:19:50 AM »
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

Americans, at least, have never really been afraid of terrorism. When 9/11 happened everyone was just pissed off. Never mind that the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, all the sand people look the same so we may as well go to Afghanistan because it's strategically significant. In hindsight it was obviously a bad idea to go over there, but I can see why they did it. We could have lit up Iran and Pakistan if we wanted, had control of a huge swath of airspace in the Middle East, and had the closest possible base to India.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 09:27:13 AM by Fortuna »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2021, 10:19:14 AM »
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

Americans, at least, have never really been afraid of terrorism. When 9/11 happened everyone was just pissed off. Never mind that the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, all the sand people look the same so we may as well go to Afghanistan because it's strategically significant. In hindsight it was obviously a bad idea to go over there, but I can see why they did it. We could have lit up Iran and Pakistan if we wanted, had control of a huge swath of airspace in the Middle East, and had the closest possible base to India.

Fear leads to anger.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Offline crutonius

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2021, 02:38:05 PM »
Yes but thats not the issue.
Its public fear.  This is why you do terrorism.

Americans, at least, have never really been afraid of terrorism. When 9/11 happened everyone was just pissed off. Never mind that the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, all the sand people look the same so we may as well go to Afghanistan because it's strategically significant. In hindsight it was obviously a bad idea to go over there, but I can see why they did it. We could have lit up Iran and Pakistan if we wanted, had control of a huge swath of airspace in the Middle East, and had the closest possible base to India.

Fear leads to anger.

And anger leads to hate...

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The Taliban Won
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2021, 03:43:56 PM »
And the Taliban basically now owns the country.

The president is gone and they entered the capital.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.