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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2021, 05:29:02 PM »
The Irish Echo makes a solid case for scheduling a referendum right away. To quote their concluding statement:

The denial of a democratic vote of the people is the real threat to the GFA, not the posturing of illegal, criminal loyalist gangs which prey on their own communities. A date for a referendum needs to be set now, and a timetable established for adequate preparation and public discussion to take place beforehand.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2021, 06:02:36 PM »
What is your obsession with breaking up the United Kingdom? You want Northern Ireland to leave. You want Scotland to leave. I presume you'd like Wales to leave. Why are you so threatened by us?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2021, 06:08:05 PM »
What is your obsession with breaking up the United Kingdom? You want Northern Ireland to leave.
I want Northern Ireland to leave because, as someone with Irish heritage myself, I care about the welfare and economic development of Ireland. The British occupation in the north is not presently working in that interest.

You want Scotland to leave.
I have said no such thing.

I presume you'd like Wales to leave.
I cannot be held accountable to your presumptions.

Why are you so threatened by us?
I could equally well ask you the same thing. Always remember, you chose to leave the EU, we didn't push you out.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2021, 06:21:05 PM »
I want Northern Ireland to leave because, as someone with Irish heritage myself, I care about the welfare and economic development of Ireland.
The Northern Irish aren't Irish. They are British. They were asked if they wanted to be Irish and they voted to remain British anyway.

Always remember, you chose to leave the EU, we didn't push you out.
And again, we voted to leave the EU.

Why do you hate democracy so much?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2021, 06:37:15 PM »
The Northern Irish aren't Irish. They are British. They were asked if they wanted to be Irish and they voted to remain British anyway.
You know perfectly well that that is an oversimplification based on a half-century-old referendum that most of the Irish in Northern Ireland boycotted because it pre-dated the Good Friday Agreement. Why do you object to asking them again in light of the events of the past five decades?

Always remember, you chose to leave the EU, we didn't push you out.
And again, we voted to leave the EU.
Yes, that's what I said. So why are you so threatened by us?

Why do you hate democracy so much?
Are you really asking me that in a thread I created to advocate for a referendum?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2021, 08:53:54 AM »
Let's compare and contrast how the UK is treating Northern Ireland with how the EU treats the Republic.

Northern Irish farmers can no longer take their cattle to Britain for sale, because they can't bring them back if they don't find buyers.

The union’s deputy president David Brown gave evidence to the Stormont finance committee yesterday on the headaches caused by new rules which hamper the movement of goods (in this case animals) from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

He said for example that when it comes to pedigree cattle, many Ulster breeders traditionally travel to big Welsh, Scottish or English shows to exhibit livestock.

But the new rules mean “any animals coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland would have to have a six month residence period”.

Mr Brown (a cattle farmer from Fermanagh) explained exactly what this means on the ground.

At Stirling in Scotland in 2018, there were 109 bulls at the spring sale from 43 exhibitors.

In 2019, the number was 120, from 37 exhibitors.

In 2020 the sale was cancelled due to Covid.

But in 2021 the figure was four bulls, from three exhibitors.

Meanwhile, in Strasbourg...

The European Parliament approved over €1 billion in subsidies for Ireland to help manage the economic impact of Brexit on Wednesday.

Ireland is by far the biggest beneficiary of the so-called Brexit Adjustment Reserve, a pot of €5.34 billion set aside by the EU for the countries hardest hit by the disruption caused by the departure of the United Kingdom.

Fine Gael MEP for Midlands North West Colm Markey described the funds as “hugely welcome” and demonstrating “a high degree of EU solidarity with Ireland”.

The fund was approved with an overwhelming vote of 652 votes in favour versus 32 against.

When will the DUP realise they're better off with Brussels than with Westminster?
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2021, 10:33:59 PM »

I have nothing to add. One of the most sober and level-headed takes on this issue I've seen.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2022, 06:10:10 PM »
Wasn’t exactly sure where to put this, but a big day for Irish culture:

https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/irish-language-european-union
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2022, 06:21:02 PM »
Wasn’t exactly sure where to put this, but a big day for Irish culture:

https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/irish-language-european-union
Indeed. I mentioned this in another thread as well. I'm glad to see the language revival be making such strides, although there is obviously still a long way to go.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2022, 06:40:01 PM »
Wasn’t exactly sure where to put this, but a big day for Irish culture:

https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/irish-language-european-union
Indeed. I mentioned this in another thread as well. I'm glad to see the language revival be making such strides, although there is obviously still a long way to go.

Canada is starting along the path of reviving some first nation’s languages. I hope it goes well, but we did so much to eradicate native speakers that it is a steep hill to climb.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2022, 07:15:59 PM »
Canada is starting along the path of reviving some first nation’s languages. I hope it goes well, but we did so much to eradicate native speakers that it is a steep hill to climb.
Yeah, that's an especially awkward case because modern political boundaries don't even approximate those of the first nations, so the cultures associated with those languages are also long dead. At least Irish national identity is still intact, even though they've lost a sixth of their land to a foreign aggressor.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2022, 07:27:13 PM »
Canada is starting along the path of reviving some first nation’s languages. I hope it goes well, but we did so much to eradicate native speakers that it is a steep hill to climb.
Yeah, that's an especially awkward case because modern political boundaries don't even approximate those of the first nations, so the cultures associated with those languages are also long dead. At least Irish national identity is still intact, even though they've lost a sixth of their land to a foreign aggressor.
You can't have lost land that you have never owned. Get a history book.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2022, 07:44:04 PM »
You can't have lost land that you have never owned. Get a history book.
I put it to you that it is you who should learn some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_invasion_of_Ireland
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2022, 07:55:57 PM »
You can't have lost land that you have never owned. Get a history book.
I put it to you that it is you who should learn some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_invasion_of_Ireland

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Normans
The Anglo-Normans were the medieval ruling class in England, composed mainly of a combination of ethnic Normans, French, Anglo-Saxons, Flemings and Bretons, following the Norman conquest.
Mmmm, these people sound like they are from the modern day EU, conquered us English and then pushed on to conquer the Irish. England has no charge to answer.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2022, 08:01:01 PM »
Mmmm, these people sound like they are from the modern day EU, conquered us English and then pushed on to conquer the Irish. England has no charge to answer.
So are you retracting your claim that the Irish never owned the land?
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2022, 08:11:22 PM »
Mmmm, these people sound like they are from the modern day EU, conquered us English and then pushed on to conquer the Irish. England has no charge to answer.
So are you retracting your claim that the Irish never owned the land?
Sure they did ... but then they were all killed by the Celts in about 500BC. After this time there were no Irish. Just a bunch of European colonialists claiming to be the rightful owners of the land they conquered.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2022, 08:14:30 PM »
Sure they did ... but then they were all killed by the Celts in about 500BC.
Source?
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Offline honk

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2022, 03:07:56 AM »
It's a pretty big stretch to say that "the Irish" refers to the prehistoric inhabitants of Ireland that we know very little about and not the Celts, who forged a distinctive national identity and culture and maintained it for thousands of years. It's true that the Celts weren't the first inhabitants of Ireland, but very few ethnic groups were the first inhabitants of the nations they now identify with. For example, Anglo-Saxons are usually seen as being quintessentially English, but they have far less historical claim to Britain than the Celts do to Ireland.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2022, 09:45:00 AM »
It's a pretty big stretch to say that "the Irish" refers to the prehistoric inhabitants of Ireland that we know very little about and not the Celts, who forged a distinctive national identity and culture and maintained it for thousands of years. It's true that the Celts weren't the first inhabitants of Ireland, but very few ethnic groups were the first inhabitants of the nations they now identify with. For example, Anglo-Saxons are usually seen as being quintessentially English, but they have far less historical claim to Britain than the Celts do to Ireland.

Precisely. It is equally a big stretch to claim that Northern Ireland belongs to the Irish, being as there were no Irish until their independence in 1922 ... we were all British. For them to claim independence in the South and suddenly also have the right to land in the North is an absurd claim. The people in the North (also British) decided to remain British via referendum and they live on the land they've always lived and their forefathers of thousands of years have lived. People in the South have no claim over the land of the North. Its not theirs. Never was theirs. Never belonged to their ancestors ... it belonged to the forefathers of those who now CURRENTLY live in Northern Ireland who choose to call themselves British.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Irish reunification
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2022, 03:25:36 PM »
It is equally a big stretch to claim that Northern Ireland belongs to the Irish, being as there were no Irish until their independence in 1922 ... we were all British.
This is like saying there were no French in Paris in the 1940s. Being occupied by a foreign power doesn't suddenly change your national identity.

For them to claim independence in the South and suddenly also have the right to land in the North is an absurd claim.
There was no border between North and South until two years after the declaration of independence. The South didn't declare independence — the entire island did. Then the British took some of it back.

The people in the North (also British)
Wrong.



People in the South have no claim over the land of the North.
That's probably why they aren't claiming it.

Its not theirs. Never was theirs. Never belonged to their ancestors ...
We've just been over this. You don't get to ignore things we covered yesterday just because they're inconvenient for you. Do better.
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