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Messages - Astronomer

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1
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: How to explain Midnight sun/No sun?
« on: October 29, 2021, 03:43:44 PM »
How would you sail from Indonesia to Ecuador?

In a boat?

Sticking to the issue of the Bi-polar sun travel explaining the sun at the poles, it would.  However, it can't explain sun at the poles while still being consistent with the angle at which the sun appears away from the poles as the distance from the sun is dramatically different than the distance to the sun in a RE model which matches what is observed.

Gotta love geometry.

2
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: How to explain Midnight sun/No sun?
« on: October 28, 2021, 05:54:29 AM »
This midnight sun problem, along with the problem of stars moving in concentric circles around the celestial poles, debunks any flat earth map I’ve seen. North Pole centered, South Pole centered, it doesn’t matter. It’s physically impossible.

3
Flat Earth Community / Re: NexStar 8SE
« on: October 26, 2021, 08:09:20 PM »
Quote from: Astronomer
You misunderstand the difference between “a few minutes before drifting off the target star” and “maximum exposure time” before a star starts to blur in an image/the background becomes too bright for usable images.

You misunderstand the difference between providing an argument with appropriate sources and pulling something out of one's rear end. You have provided no sources for this, and therefore it is the later.

If the limitation is the camera exposure then on the MIT telescope why, exactly, is the limit for an unguided mount max exposure only up to 5 minutes, while the exposure for guided mount is listed as 60 minutes plus?

This is a catastrophe of an argument. But really, it is obvious that this argument is no mistake. You clearly just came here to make things up and lie to us.

Tom, I don’t need to cite the sources you yourself have already provided. Your citations only prove what I’m trying to say.

I’m going to say something that I should have made clear in my first response to you. When you’re talking about astrophotography, which your sources are, the “max exposure time” is the maximum time you can shoot before the start begins to visibly drift in frame, resulting in non ideal photographs. It does not mean that the stars or planets just fly out of frame within seconds or minutes, as you seem to imply.


http://www.pk3.org/Astro/index.htm?astrophoto_mount_errors.htm
As per your first source, and so there is no confusion -
“Telescope mounted on equatorial mount is rotating in opposite direction of Earth rotation, thus no trails should appear. The word SHOULD is used intentionally, because there are several factors which affect perfect tracking:
The mount should be perfectly aligned with Earth's polar axis. Any deviation of mount's polar axis from Earth's axis causes tracking errors.
Even quality machined mount parts like worms, worm gears, shafts are not absolutely perfect. The parts are machined in micrometer precision at best. We must realise that in astrophotography we require tracking precison up to arcseconds. That means, that e.g. teeth of teeth on perimeter of wheel with diameter of 8cm must be machined with accuracy of hundreeds of nanometers!
As mount's shaft rotates, any error in its surface and shape and also in worm and worm gear surfaces and shapes causes a periodic bump in tracking. The most observable is so called periodic error of the mount which is caused by inaccuracy of of worm. The period of this error takes one revolution of gear (usually 5-10 minutes for common mounts).
More expensive mounts has possibility to suppress this error by means of electronics - Periodic Error Correction (PEC). The principle of PEC is based on recording tracking corrections made by observer by star tracking during one period. This tracking corrections are then applied during normal mount use.
Atmospheric refraction causes that stars are not moving exactly according to their calculated trajectories.
Further effects - tripod, scope, focuser and other parts firmness, vibrations, thermal changes agffect the result tracking accuracy.”


https://starizona.com/blogs/tutorials/exposure-times
And for your second source, a blog, discussing exposure time -
“For deep sky imaging, suffice to say that longer is always better, at least until light pollution starts to overwhelm the image.”



Again, these sources, the ones you have provided, prove my claim. Being able to accurately track a body through the night sky depends on the mechanical precision of the equipment, which can never be prefect, and the accuracy of the alignment on the celestial poles.


https://web.mit.edu/wallace/instruments.html
Your third source, the MIT telescope.
It appears the professional telescope is accurate enough to track(for astrophotography purposes), unguided to compensate for inevitable mechanical inaccuracies, longer than most amateur setups can while guided. Not surprising.


I’ll say it again as you ignored it in my last reply. Time lapse photography of the night sky reveals concentric circles around the celestial pole, proving my point about EQ mounts while removing the problem of their inherent mechanical errors.
I’ll repeat that this is impossible on a flat plane with objects circling around overhead. The only place that would work is on the North Pole of a flat earth map, and that’s quite clearly not the case.

4
Flat Earth Community / Re: NexStar 8SE
« on: October 26, 2021, 06:07:41 AM »
You can get a decent scope for well under $600. Any cheap equatorial mounted scope will demolish the notion of a sun/moon/stars going in a circle above a flat plane.

Have you ever used an equatorial mounted scope? They only work for a few minutes before drifting off of the target star.

-----

$700 Equatorial Mount - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NY44782/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NY44782/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

"Question: When polar aligned north, can you use a ball head mount to rotate your camera 180* to capture the southern sky without trailing?

Answer: Hi Doyle, YES! Once the head is aligned, move your camera wherever and it will track the object for up to 5 minutes when using a wide-angle the lens. A telephoto (200mm) can only go about 2 minutes."

---

In this one, on a page called "Equatorial Mount Tracking Errors" the author shows stars which drift out of shot within a short amount of time on an EQ mount.

http://www.pk3.org/Astro/index.htm?astrophoto_mount_errors.htm

Quote
Equatorial Mount Tracking Errors

~

"Capture Selected Frames capture mode was selected with period 1 second (exact period was 1.11s)."


---

Other types of advanced EQ mount packages are computerized with multiple motorized axis' and have cameras for optical guide tracking and following of a target star, and are more reliable, but this isn't what you're referring to.

Unguided mounts can only track for short amounts of time:

https://starizona.com/blogs/tutorials/exposure-times



https://web.mit.edu/wallace/instruments.html



You misunderstand the difference between “a few minutes before drifting off the target star” and “maximum exposure time” before a star starts to blur in an image/the background becomes too bright for usable images.
Apart from these misunderstandings, a proper alignment, not just a rough alignment on the star Polaris, is extremely important. Also important is getting your latitude correct, very precisely. Likewise, gears and cogs can only be so accurate. Any slop or play will affect tracking.

Disregard all this, and take a time lapse photograph of the night sky. You will see each star makes a concentric circle in the night sky. This is impossible With overhead stars circling around a flat plane.

We are getting off topic. I hope OP  enjoys his new telescope. I suggest looking at Jupiter and it’s moons while it’s in the sky! Just after dark is probably the best time!

5
Flat Earth Community / Re: NexStar 8SE
« on: October 22, 2021, 06:13:35 AM »
You can get a decent scope for well under $600. Any cheap equatorial mounted scope will demolish the notion of a sun/moon/stars going in a circle above a flat plane.

6
Technology & Information / Re: T minus 5 minutes to launch
« on: May 30, 2020, 07:40:05 PM »
Qualifies as an investigation, but moved to the lower fora. Figures.

7
Technology & Information / T minus 5 minutes to launch
« on: May 30, 2020, 07:18:21 PM »
Space x launch in 5 minutes. Flat earthers tune in!

8
Flat Earth Theory / Re: International Space Station
« on: May 18, 2020, 12:59:54 AM »
Gravity will pull it to earth

It will try to.
Throw a stone horizontally and it will land some distance in front of you.
Fire a bullet and it will land much further from you.
If two people did those things at the same time then which would hit the ground first, the stone or the bullet?
It’s counter intuitive but they’d hit the ground at the same time (ignoring air resistance and assuming the bullet doesn’t go far enough that the earth’s curve is a significant factor.)
They hit at the same time because gravity pulls both of them to earth at the same rate, the bullet goes further because it is going faster and so can travel horizontally further in the time.

What if you had a more powerful gun which shot the bullet faster? It would go further still. Now, if you imagine we live on a globe (I know, but humour me) then the ground would slope away from you. Let’s ignore hills and mountains. You should be able to see that if you shoot the bullet fast enough then the bullet would never land, it would fall but as it falls the ground slopes away. Get the speed right and it would go all the way around the earth (assuming it maintains a constant speed so ignoring air resistance). That is how orbit works.

Quote
Gravitational constant , oxymoronic name, changes with altitude according to the inverse square law and pulls to the centre of mass or so the theory goes.

Here you have quite succinctly shown you don’t understand English or science.
An oxymoron is two adjacent words which contradict one another. These do not.
The Gravitational constant is, as the name suggests, constant. The gravitational force the earth exerts in a body is not constant.

Quote
It 's a plane, balloon satellite, or whatever lighter than air craft they want to wow you with . It's a hologram maybe. It isn't what OP thinks it to be.

And where is your evidence for that?

The gravitational constant ,big G , is not constant . Do some research. Start here if you wish . Article from New Scientist. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24180-strength-of-gravity-shifts-and-this-time-its-serious/

There's loads more on tinterweb .

Watched the ISS plane fly over last night 11.40pm. Ridiculously bright for an object 250mls or so away . Apparently it's because the solar panels cover a big area and reflect sunlight. I always thought the point of solar panels was to absorb sunlight.

Are there orbital parameters for iss that allow for the alledged spin of the earth ? Surely it must be constantly accelerating ?

Earth travels around the sun , according to theory , at 66,600mph, devilish number that . Now that is 18.5 miles per second or 30kms .Iss travels at 7kms we are led to believe . How does it keep up ? How does it maintain its orbit? How do the geostationary satellites ,thousands of miles away , cope with earths motions ? There is no wonder it took a scifi writer to dream up such nonsense or nonscience.

There is no magic velocity ,in globe theory , that allows a satellite to orbit a planet , it either escapes or is pulled back to earth .
If there is ,where is the magic formula?

Dude, how do the satellites keep up with the earth? They’re moving at those speeds RELATIVE to the earth.
This is literally one of the first concepts you will learn in an introductory physics class.


Side note, someone please explain to me how to pull individual quotes from a person’s reply, so people don’t have to scroll through a text wall to see what I’m replying to.

9
Flat Earth Theory / International Space Station
« on: May 16, 2020, 03:42:20 AM »
With even a simple telescope, it's possible to see the international space station zoom through the sky, if only for a moment. The outline is very clear, and depending on the quality of the optics, atmospheric conditions, etc., quite a lot of detail can be made out.
This, on top of the fact that you can get the precise location of it at any given time, is pretty damning evidence for a flat earth.


How does the flat earth hypothesis explain the consistency of the ISS orbit and the easily obtained details when viewed through a telescope?
If not in orbit, it is propelled by a force other than gravity, and if so, what is this force? There needs to be at least three forces at work for it to rotate in a circle above the plane. And upward force to keep it suspended, and at a minimum two forces to move it in a circular fashion. Conventional fuel burning would need eventual refueling, which doesn't occur.

It cannot be a mere weather balloon as I've seen suggested by some FE'rs, and I don't think any explanation given by flat earth hypothesis will follow the Zetetic method, but I hope to be shown otherwise!

Also, the myriad other satellites need an explanation although it's usually harder to discern visual details on them, given their various respective sizes and distances from the earth.

10
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Zeteticism
« on: December 11, 2019, 06:43:28 PM »
Second, I wanted to ask some FE'rs who believe things like Universal Acceleration while claiming to follow the zetetic method, how do these beliefs not conflict with each other?

Has Zeteticism ever been criticized by some philosopher?

How is that related?

11
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Zeteticism
« on: December 11, 2019, 06:09:17 PM »
Tom... I thought I was being pedantic with my criticism of your flawed explanation of the scientific method.

Bottom line, and there are more that I'm forgetting... Please RE's, feel free to add to the list if anything comes to mind.

-Aether,
-Universal acceleration,
-Ice wall,
-Rotation of the "celestial spheres" and "luminous elements" above the plane of a flat earth,
-The dome,
-The map(s) of flat earth,
-The very claim itself that the earth is flat,

Each of these fly in the face of zeteticism. Each claim that FE's need to explain the natural phenomenon that we can observe with our own eyes, is in direct contradiction of the zetetic method.
Most FE'rs in the fora are proponents of at least one of these hypotheses, and they're unknowingly using the scientific method. However, the difference between the FE community and the scientific community at large is actual experimentation to prove their hypotheses either correct or incorrect.

12
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Zeteticism
« on: December 09, 2019, 07:12:57 AM »
If you follow the Scientific Method as it is written you will get half-truths and fallacies. The Scientific Method has us coming up with a hypothesis and then performing an experiment around that hypothesis to prove it to be true or false. If it is true, and the experiment comes out in your favor, the next step is to declare yourself to be correct, communicate your results, and it ends there.

However, this is not sufficient. As an example consider Aristotle's theory of spontaneous generation which mankind accepted as true for upwards of 2000 years. If you perform an experiment and put out a piece of meat and find that it eventually rots and flies and maggots develop on it, you would be prone to believe that the prevailing theory of spontaneous generation is true.

We see that a single experiment to confirm a hypothesis is not enough, and deeper and basic investigation is necessary to validate the underlying hypothesis. The Zetetic philosophy is conceived as a method of inquiry, where tests are tried and investigation is performed, not to corroborate any particular theory, but where all theories are discarded and the goal is to uncover basic truths about nature, with experience itself as the guiding force.

Many inventors and researchers already perform a Zetetic form of inquiry without knowing it. When Folding@Home systematically tests many different protein folding combinations across a distributed network to see what works and what does not, the Zetetic method is applied. When the Wright Brothers wrote that they had discarded scientific theories and began from experiment to experience, and that only then could they invent the airplane, they were performing the Zetetic method. Knowledge does not come from the 'logically sound' theories and models of man that are built up in academia, but from experience and nature.

Because others have already explained your misconceptions about the scientific method better than I could on my best day, I’ll leave it at that.

I do want to ask though, do you seriously think the Wright brothers didn’t form a hypothesis? I’m skeptical of your claim, as it doesn’t have a source, but even if it’s correct, they knew to make wings, they must have understood the basic concept of lift, so even if they didn’t realize it, that is a hypothesis. They tested it, and it worked.

Also, are you deliberately trying to derail topics? I’ve seen you do it in other threads, but maybe you aren’t trying to do it, or don’t realize you’re doing it.
This post had nothing to do with the validity of the scientific method, yet you dedicated the whole post to pointing out what you think are it’s flaws.

My point is, ironically, that many people who claim to follow Zeteticism might be unknowingly following the scientific method, contradicting your claim to the contrary.
Universal acceleration is a blinding example. The whole idea that the world is flat is a presumption in itself. It’s a contradiction to zeteticism.

Tom, I know you like the zetetic method, but I’m not sure your positions on FE hypotheses like UA.
How about it, what do you think?

13
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 07, 2019, 08:00:18 AM »
Yeah, I was a registered republican in the initial days of Bush Jr. It was a long process, but I don't see myself voting red again in the near future. It has rapidly became a cult of personality since 2016. Anything he does is tolerated, and in most cases they praise it. Many even believe he has been sent by god. Very troubling attitudes.

14
Flat Earth Theory / Zeteticism
« on: December 07, 2019, 07:53:38 AM »
From the wiki,
"Zeteticism differs from the usual scientific method in that using zeteticism one bases his conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved. A zetetic forms the question then immediately sets to work making observations and performing experiments to answer that question, rather than speculating on what the answer might be then testing that out."

First of all, I'd like to be slightly pedantic and point out that, in the scientific method, one doesn't initially form a theory. The first step is a hypothesis, I think that might be the term you intended.

Second, I wanted to ask some FE'rs who believe things like Universal Acceleration while claiming to follow the zetetic method, how do these beliefs not conflict with each other?

15
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why is the earth the only flat planet?
« on: December 07, 2019, 07:36:23 AM »
If the Earth is flat, why? How was it created? Why aren't other planets flat?

Also, how is the Earth flat if you can clearly see the Fresnel effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_equations) on the earth (edges of round-ish objects being shiny)
from this image:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/photography/photos/000/061/6125.ngsversion.1467942189618.adapt.1900.1.jpg

Since no flat earthers have answered, I'll try.
Most FE'rs claim that all images from space depicting a globe earth are faked.
Most FE'rs I've spoken with claim that the earth and the other planets that we can visibly observe to rotate on an axis aren't in the same category objects. As in earth isn't a planet.

16
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 05, 2019, 04:28:28 PM »
The whole "quid pro quo" thing was just a diversion tactic, as usual, by Trump. What amazes me is how many people buy into it.
There needn't be any quid pro quo for what he did to be unethical or even illegal. He asked a foreign power to "investigate" a political rival. Coincidentally the frontrunner and one who beats him in all the polls.
Add in the fact that he said "but let me ask you a favor though" in response to the military aid int the transcript, then proceeded to withhold said aid until after the whistleblower made the report, and you have even more damning evidence.

The Republican attitude on this reeks. It's disturbing. Go back and look at how people like Lindsey Graham treated Clinton for lying about a BJ, and compare it with how they're treating this.
I sense some severe hypocrisy if this ever happens again in the future... Kinda like the national deficit hypocrisy.
A VERY slippery slope, if Republicans follow through with this line of thinking.

17
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why is the earth the only flat planet?
« on: December 05, 2019, 04:10:44 PM »
Telescopes? I mean anyone can watch the planets rotate in the course of a single night.

18
Flat Earth Theory / Re: On The Subject of Gravity
« on: July 27, 2019, 07:12:19 PM »
Let us not forget that variations measured in the earth’s gravitational field utterly debunks UA.

Debatable. I have three pages on this:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Variations_in_Gravity
https://wiki.tfes.org/Weight_Variation_by_Latitude
https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry

Borderline Gish Gallop.

First link doesn't relate to the topic at all.

As far as your second link. Are you trying to tell me air pressure affects the weight of a dense substance as much as .5%?
Water has a density of roughly 1000kg/m cubed.
Air has a density roughly, at sea level, of 1.2kg/m cubed.
Using our equations, this means that a human with a density roughly equivalent to water, would weigh around .12% more in a vacuum than in the atmosphere. So for a 200lb person, a difference of 1/4 pound. That's the difference from a vacuum to our atmosphere, NOT the natural variations in atmosphere due to temperature of which your speak.
A complete vacuum.
This difference is even higher when considering a metal weight, take steel (8,000kg/m3) or copper (9,000kg/m3) or even gold (19,000kg/m3). It's more likely when performing this experiment you would use a metal such as this. Easier to remain consistent.
Steel in a vacuum would weigh 1/1000th more than it would in the atmosphere. For a 200lb weight of steel, a difference of .03 lbs. Again, in a VACUUM.

This explanation does NOT account for the known ~.5% variations in weight for a given mass ANYWHERE on the earth. At any altitude, at any latitude.
This is an experiment anyone with the ability to purchase plane tickets or take a long, long drive can do.

19
Flat Earth Theory / Re: On The Subject of Gravity
« on: July 26, 2019, 05:47:35 PM »
Let us not forget that variations measured in the earth’s gravitational field utterly debunks UA.

20
Flat Earth Theory / Re: On the Subject of Constellations
« on: July 23, 2019, 05:20:37 PM »
Pete, are you an advocate of Zeteticism?

From the wiki:

“Zeteticism differs from the usual scientific method in that using zeteticism one bases his conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved. A zetetic forms the question then immediately sets to work making observations and performing experiments to answer that question, rather than speculating on what the answer might be then testing that out.”

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