The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: CableDawg on March 09, 2016, 06:27:47 AM

Title: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 09, 2016, 06:27:47 AM
Most, if not all, FE supporters anchor their beliefs, theories and arguments in perception.

Are your beliefs, theories and arguments of all aspects of life anchored in perception or is perception limited to or specially reserved for FE theory?

For example, say you fall and break your arm.  You know it's broke because it hurts like hell and may be bent at a weird angle, there is no question of your perception.  When you go to the doctor's office he will take an x-ray of your arm and produce an image of your broken arm so that he knows exactly what he's dealing with.

The rub is that human beings are absolutely incapable of perceiving x-rays.  The image produced is a manipulation, by equipment, to produce a visible spectrum image.

Considering that the average person has absolutely no idea of the true machinations of the x-ray equipment and/or the processing equipment, do you believe these images without question or do you disregard them the same as all images of space travel or distant stars/galaxies, which you label, at minimum, as being manipulated in some fashion?  Since you can NOT see inside your arm and actually perceive the broken ends of the bone do you believe that the manipulated image is, in fact, a true representation of your arm?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Rounder on March 09, 2016, 01:51:38 PM
I get what you're trying for, but don't see it being very convincing.  The X-ray image of the broken bone lines up with the perception of events, it agrees with and supports the observation of a visible injury and the perception of pain.  In contrast, photos from space are outside the experience of most people, the curvature shown in those photos contradicts the local perception of apparant flatness.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 09, 2016, 03:38:40 PM
the curvature shown in those photos contradicts the local perception of apparant flatness.
And the predicted curvature of RET ;)
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 09, 2016, 03:55:18 PM
the curvature shown in those photos contradicts the local perception of apparant flatness.
And the predicted curvature of RET ;)

Exactly. There is no consistency in these "photographs" from space. The curvature changes wildly with no relation to the supposed altitude the photo is taken from.

But yeah, you can't see "x-rays," but you can see the result of them processed on film. I can't see or feel the effects of flying through space at 16,000 mph, while spinning on a curved axis at 1,000mph... and I don't even see any results directly related to these apparent motions.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: rabinoz on March 09, 2016, 10:51:55 PM
the curvature shown in those photos contradicts the local perception of apparant flatness.
And the predicted curvature of RET ;)

Exactly. There is no consistency in these "photographs" from space. The curvature changes wildly with no relation to the supposed altitude the photo is taken from.

But yeah, you can't see "x-rays," but you can see the result of them processed on film. I can't see or feel the effects of flying through space at 16,000 mph, while spinning on a curved axis at 1,000mph... and I don't even see any results directly related to these apparent motions.

::) How ever would you notice spinning once in about 24 hours or about 0.0007 rpm! You really must be a bit oversensitive!  ::)

Please explain just what you mean by "There is no consistency in these "photographs" from space."  From space, not just from high altitude aircraft and balloons. Show some examples of just what you mean.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Hoppy on March 10, 2016, 02:17:48 AM
Most, if not all, FE supporters anchor their beliefs, theories and arguments in perception.

Are your beliefs, theories and arguments of all aspects of life anchored in perception or is perception limited to or specially reserved for FE theory?

For example, say you fall and break your arm.  You know it's broke because it hurts like hell and may be bent at a weird angle, there is no question of your perception.  When you go to the doctor's office he will take an x-ray of your arm and produce an image of your broken arm so that he knows exactly what he's dealing with.

The rub is that human beings are absolutely incapable of perceiving x-rays.  The image produced is a manipulation, by equipment, to produce a visible spectrum image.

Considering that the average person has absolutely no idea of the true machinations of the x-ray equipment and/or the processing equipment, do you believe these images without question or do you disregard them the same as all images of space travel or distant stars/galaxies, which you label, at minimum, as being manipulated in some fashion?  Since you can NOT see inside your arm and actually perceive the broken ends of the bone do you believe that the manipulated image is, in fact, a true representation of your arm?
It doesn't sound like you trust your own senses. Your arm is bent where there is no joint and hurts like hell. You won't believe your arm is broken until a doctor shows you an x-ray.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Roundy on March 10, 2016, 04:08:48 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: BlueMoon on March 10, 2016, 04:26:57 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 10, 2016, 04:57:06 AM
I think I see what you were trying to argue OP, but it was really poorly executed.

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but I will try to make the argument I think you attempted.

About a year ago I was driving to Vegas and observed this:

Looking out the drivers window I saw what appeared to be a rather large lake between the mountains and road.

I have made that trip before remember not seeing water there, since it is also the same area I pull over to let my dog go her business and play some.

When I approached the exit for the small road I drive down I noticed the water did not seem to be getting closer but staying the same distance from me.  I exited and drove down a road that shortly before my senses told me should be covered in water, but it was not.  The whole area in fact was dry.

I can draw several conclusions from what I observed.

1. Water can evaporate extremely fast and do so at much lower temperatures than can be normally observed.

2. Water somehow can move relative to the observer. In this case it may have sunk below the surface.

3. Water can become undetectable to the human senses when approached in certain conditions.

4. It was a mirage explained already by science.

Well out of those choices I can say I have never observed water behaving the way in options 1-3. 

So at least for me I go with option 4, since I acknowledge my senses can deceive me at times. Well in this case it my senses were not really deceiving me and my perception told me I was observing a mirage. 

I can look out across the water right now it without taking anything else into account the world looks flat.  That is what my senses tell me and using the above observation as an example I realize my senses/perception may just not be revealing the whole truth.

When I observe the sun rise and set, lunar phases, when perched on the mast seeing things people on the deck can not see, tides, watching container ships, tankers and cruise liners rise and sink over the horizon, when I viewed the ISS through binoculars and made out the solar panels, seeing different stars sailing in different parts of the world, ocean currents that I notice going in different directions depending if I am north or south or the equator as I make crossings, etc.  Well that is my senses telling me the earth may just be a spinning globe.

Human senses are fallible and why they are not used as proof unless that is the only option. Senses IMHO can be used as supporting evidence for things like the shape of the Earth, but calculations, reproducible experiments and making reliable predictions is what proves the shape of the planet we live on.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Roundy on March 10, 2016, 05:32:33 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: BlueMoon on March 10, 2016, 06:30:25 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be driving uphill and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.
In that case, you are one of a rare breed of FEers, as apparently I am with REers.  Most FEers I have spoken with simply charge ahead with their beliefs, with no regard to whether or not they are actually correct.  It would seem many REers do the same. 


It's true, our immediate perception would suggest that the earth is flat.  There was a time when that was enough, when the heavens were simply a source of wonder and stories, and our business lay on the ground.  But today our perception has widened.  We now live in a world with satellites and GPS, where mankind has been to the moon and our machines have left the solar system.  We have reason to believe that there is more than meets the eye.  But rather than accept that their old perception has been phased out, most FEers will accuse pioneering organizations like NASA of deception and fraud, and dismiss our accomplishments in favor of their own perception.  And apparently, most REers will attack their own perceptions of FEers, and only end up reenforcing the FEers beliefs.  Both sides are guilty of this. 


On the other hand, I am in a position with access to vast amounts of third party evidence that the earth is round.  I am a member of the Space Hardware Club at my university, where we send up high-altitude balloons, participate in the ARISS program, and even have our own cubesat in orbit.  I'm qualified to advocate for NASA and RE in a way few others are. 
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Hoppy on March 12, 2016, 01:57:57 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be driving uphill and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.
In that case, you are one of a rare breed of FEers, as apparently I am with REers.  Most FEers I have spoken with simply charge ahead with their beliefs, with no regard to whether or not they are actually correct.  It would seem many REers do the same. 


It's true, our immediate perception would suggest that the earth is flat.  There was a time when that was enough, when the heavens were simply a source of wonder and stories, and our business lay on the ground.  But today our perception has widened.  We now live in a world with satellites and GPS, where mankind has been to the moon and our machines have left the solar system.  We have reason to believe that there is more than meets the eye.  But rather than accept that their old perception has been phased out, most FEers will accuse pioneering organizations like NASA of deception and fraud, and dismiss our accomplishments in favor of their own perception.  And apparently, most REers will attack their own perceptions of FEers, and only end up reenforcing the FEers beliefs.  Both sides are guilty of this. 


On the other hand, I am in a position with access to vast amounts of third party evidence that the earth is round.  I am a member of the Space Hardware Club at my university, where we send up high-altitude balloons, participate in the ARISS program, and even have our own cubesat in orbit.  I'm qualified to advocate for NASA and RE in a way few others are.
I saw a video of a night time high altitude balloon flight . It appeared to go so high as to see the sun far off. Have you seen the video? What is your opinion?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: BlueMoon on March 12, 2016, 03:36:37 AM
I saw a video of a night time high altitude balloon flight . It appeared to go so high as to see the sun far off. Have you seen the video? What is your opinion?
I haven't yet, but I'd like to.  Could you post the link? 
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 12, 2016, 10:58:24 AM
I get what you're trying for, but don't see it being very convincing.  The X-ray image of the broken bone lines up with the perception of events, it agrees with and supports the observation of a visible injury and the perception of pain.  In contrast, photos from space are outside the experience of most people, the curvature shown in those photos contradicts the local perception of apparant flatness.

It lines up with the fact that you have a pain in your arm.  Do you trust the manipulated photo to be truly representative of what the bones in your arm look like simply because you arm hurts?  Is the pain in your arm a direct representation of the way the bone is broken?

They really are the same thing.  You can see the stars in the night sky just as well as you can feel the pain in your arm.  You won't trust the photo of a star that you can see but you'll trust the photo of your broken bone that you can't see?

How is the manipulation of one set of scientific data acceptable yet the manipulation of another set of scientific data is not?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 12, 2016, 11:02:04 AM
Most, if not all, FE supporters anchor their beliefs, theories and arguments in perception.

Are your beliefs, theories and arguments of all aspects of life anchored in perception or is perception limited to or specially reserved for FE theory?

For example, say you fall and break your arm.  You know it's broke because it hurts like hell and may be bent at a weird angle, there is no question of your perception.  When you go to the doctor's office he will take an x-ray of your arm and produce an image of your broken arm so that he knows exactly what he's dealing with.

The rub is that human beings are absolutely incapable of perceiving x-rays.  The image produced is a manipulation, by equipment, to produce a visible spectrum image.

Considering that the average person has absolutely no idea of the true machinations of the x-ray equipment and/or the processing equipment, do you believe these images without question or do you disregard them the same as all images of space travel or distant stars/galaxies, which you label, at minimum, as being manipulated in some fashion?  Since you can NOT see inside your arm and actually perceive the broken ends of the bone do you believe that the manipulated image is, in fact, a true representation of your arm?
It doesn't sound like you trust your own senses. Your arm is bent where there is no joint and hurts like hell. You won't believe your arm is broken until a doctor shows you an x-ray.

Where did I say that I won't believe my arm is broken until a doctor shows me an x-ray?  Did you not see the part where I said it was for his use?  Did you misunderstand that part?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 12, 2016, 11:03:05 AM
the curvature shown in those photos contradicts the local perception of apparant flatness.
And the predicted curvature of RET ;)

Exactly. There is no consistency in these "photographs" from space. The curvature changes wildly with no relation to the supposed altitude the photo is taken from.

But yeah, you can't see "x-rays," but you can see the result of them processed on film. I can't see or feel the effects of flying through space at 16,000 mph, while spinning on a curved axis at 1,000mph... and I don't even see any results directly related to these apparent motions.

Can you not see the weather happening around you?  Weather is caused, in part, by earth's rotation.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 12, 2016, 11:04:13 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)

I'll ask you the same question I asked Hoppy.

Did you see the part where I said the x-ray was for the doctors use?  Did you misunderstand that part?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 12, 2016, 11:10:41 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.

So medicine is the only or one of the very few professions that proceeds by inquiry?

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 12, 2016, 05:57:28 PM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.

So medicine is the only or one of the very few professions that proceeds by inquiry?

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

And you would have us believe that NASA photographed a rock that looks exactly like a rodent on the surface of mars?

(http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/files/2013/06/Mars-rat.jpg)
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 12, 2016, 07:13:10 PM
Holy cow life on mars after all! Whats the source for that pic tom?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: BlueMoon on March 12, 2016, 09:21:15 PM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.

So medicine is the only or one of the very few professions that proceeds by inquiry?

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

And you would have us believe that NASA photographed a rock that looks exactly like a rodent on the surface of mars?

(http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/files/2013/06/Mars-rat.jpg)
Come on, that's obviously not a rodent.  Maybe if you squinted really hard at it, but otherwise, any normal person can see that it's just a rock.  Don't be stupid. 
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Roundy on March 13, 2016, 02:59:41 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)

I'll ask you the same question I asked Hoppy.

Did you see the part where I said the x-ray was for the doctors use?  Did you misunderstand that part?

I really don't see the relevance.  I was referring specifically to the standard RE battle-cry that trusting our senses is nothing short of mind-numbingly stupid, at least on a level of mental retardation with Forrest Gump, maybe even I Am Sam, because they are always lying to us.  I hope you understand better.

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

Well... no... actually we believe the moon landing was a hoax.  I thought like pretty much everybody understood that.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 13, 2016, 04:20:34 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)

I'll ask you the same question I asked Hoppy.

Did you see the part where I said the x-ray was for the doctors use?  Did you misunderstand that part?

I really don't see the relevance.  I was referring specifically to the standard RE battle-cry that trusting our senses is nothing short of mind-numbingly stupid, at least on a level of mental retardation with Forrest Gump, maybe even I Am Sam, because they are always lying to us.  I hope you understand better.

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

Well... no... actually we believe the moon landing was a hoax.  I thought like pretty much everybody understood that.

You don't see the relevance between what I said and how you and hoppy tried to twist it to fit what you believe?

Where did I say anything about going to the doctor to get confirmation of a broken arm?  Would you not go to the doctor if you had a broken arm to get it fixed or does your perception of a random person on the street telling you he is qualified to set the bone good enough for you to forego going to the doctor?

Title: Re: Perception
Post by: rabinoz on March 13, 2016, 04:32:43 AM
Well... no... actually we believe the moon landing was a hoax.  I thought like pretty much everybody understood that.

We know that very well! By definition any evidence
(1) that is against a flat earth is automatically a hoax (Satellite TV, GPS using satellites, etc)
(2) that seems to support a flat earth must be true, even if later proved false!

Yet there are so many things you cannot explain without using the weirdest of explanations.

Your sun must move in the most strange spiral "orbit" - no explanation as to howhow!
You somehow get phases of the moon by it wobbling up and down - no explanation as to the impossibility this actually causing the phases.
The sun and moon are observed to stay the same size as they appear to move across the sky - drag in magic perfectly compensating "atmospheric magnification".

All dragged in without a trace of evidence! Who needs evidence when "the earth looks flat"?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Roundy on March 13, 2016, 06:10:59 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)

I'll ask you the same question I asked Hoppy.

Did you see the part where I said the x-ray was for the doctors use?  Did you misunderstand that part?

I really don't see the relevance.  I was referring specifically to the standard RE battle-cry that trusting our senses is nothing short of mind-numbingly stupid, at least on a level of mental retardation with Forrest Gump, maybe even I Am Sam, because they are always lying to us.  I hope you understand better.

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

Well... no... actually we believe the moon landing was a hoax.  I thought like pretty much everybody understood that.

You don't see the relevance between what I said and how you and hoppy tried to twist it to fit what you believe?

Again, I was referring to what REers in general seem to believe.  Your post was kind of a springboard for the observation, but the observation was never meant to be based on or in response to anything you said.

Quote
Where did I say anything about going to the doctor to get confirmation of a broken arm?  Would you not go to the doctor if you had a broken arm to get it fixed or does your perception of a random person on the street telling you he is qualified to set the bone good enough for you to forego going to the doctor?

Now I think you're just being insulting for the sake of being insulting.  Why wouldn't I go to the doctor if I can plainly see it's broken?  I'm not qualified to fix it and obviously I'm not leaving it in the hands of a random stranger...
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 13, 2016, 07:22:09 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.

So medicine is the only or one of the very few professions that proceeds by inquiry?

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

And you would have us believe that NASA photographed a rock that looks exactly like a rodent on the surface of mars?

(http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/files/2013/06/Mars-rat.jpg)
Come on, that's obviously not a rodent.  Maybe if you squinted really hard at it, but otherwise, any normal person can see that it's just a rock.  Don't be stupid.

That's a fairly convincing rock. 10 out of 10 of the people I showed it to thought it was a rodent. It even has the black almond rodent eyes

(http://livrespensadores.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mars-rodent-orig-rover-composite1.jpg)
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 13, 2016, 07:56:25 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.

So medicine is the only or one of the very few professions that proceeds by inquiry?

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

And you would have us believe that NASA photographed a rock that looks exactly like a rodent on the surface of mars?

(http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/files/2013/06/Mars-rat.jpg)
Come on, that's obviously not a rodent.  Maybe if you squinted really hard at it, but otherwise, any normal person can see that it's just a rock.  Don't be stupid.

That's a fairly convincing rock. 10 out of 10 of the people I showed it to thought it was a rodent. It even has the black almond rodent eyes

(http://livrespensadores.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mars-rodent-orig-rover-composite1.jpg)


To me it looks like a rock that looks like a rodent.

What I would suggest is start looking at pictures of rodents to try to identify the type it is. 

See what rodents appear not to have legs or very short legs.

Which have blunt noses.

Which have no or very small ears that are not obvious.

Do you look at anything critically before making a claim?

I am not saying it is not a rodent I am not an expert.  I looked at the photo for about 30 seconds and noticed these things.

Did you think about taking the picture to someone like a veterinarian?  Maybe they could help narrow the search down a bit.

Would you like me to research it for you?  It will take some time since I will not make it a priority, but I can eventually get it done. 
A very brief investigation says maybe a hamster , but all the pictures I can find seem to have more prominent ears then what is in the photo. The nose on a hamster does not seem as blunt either.
Pictures of rats also show noses that are not more pointed and more prominent ears.

Do you see how something like this should be done by someone in your position?  Basically search for answers not just jump to a conclusion that supports your belief.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 13, 2016, 08:02:01 AM
It's likely a prairie dog.

(http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/kids/photos/animals/Mammals/H-P/prairie-dog-eating.jpg.adapt.945.1.jpg)
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 13, 2016, 09:15:12 AM
It's likely a prairie dog.

(http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/kids/photos/animals/Mammals/H-P/prairie-dog-eating.jpg.adapt.945.1.jpg)

That is good. Meets the criteria of blunt nose and the ears are not prominent.

There is the matter of the front legs.  Seems I can see a shadow under the entire prairie dog.  The only thing I can see that looks like a leg seems very, very short compared to the pictures I just looked at.  It also seems more like being part of the cheek than a leg.

So if a prairie dog which live in these areas:

(http://www.deltatech.com/rv/pd_map.jpg)

The location of where the photo could have been taken can be narrowed down.

I tried to rule out any of the species but could not since they all appear to have the same coloring among them and nose shapes.

If the photo was taken outside and not on a set I think it might have been taken in an arid area.

(http://cals.arizona.edu/OALS/soils/surveys/states.gif)

(http://www.codex99.com/cartography/images/national/land_use_1970_lg.jpg)

So looking at prairie dog ranges and arid areas with low vegetation maps it looks like maybe West Texas, New Mexico or Arizona.

Here is Texas:
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkBXzTdmdUhSRhJnt7qlGittD0FOVuNQyU4v9Ih1dekQDQ1_U3Jw)

Here is New Mexico:
(http://mccarthystravels.floatingworld.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Shiprock.jpg)

Here is Arizona:
(http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/779404/160954031/stock-photo-arizona-desert-landscape-160954031.jpg)

By the way I did this, because I got tired of seeing answer from FE's just basically saying because that is how it is.  I actually researched and came up with locations that if it is a prairie dog where the picture could have been taken.  I did not just say it looks like a rodent and 10 out of 10 people thought it was.

At least for me and I am sure others this is the kind of stuff we are talking about when we say evidence.  It showed locations where prairie dogs live, places that and/or had limited vegetation, and pictures of those states that both prairie dogs lived and somewhat matched what we can see in the photo. I did not research any further to see if prairie dogs live in the areas the photos I posted.
I also assumed a prairie dog did not end up on an indoor set.

I still think it is a picture of a rock that looks like a prairie dog with no front legs.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: BlueMoon on March 13, 2016, 01:05:53 PM
Are you aware of the concept of "pareidolia?"  It's when our brains look for and find patterns where none exist.  Some examples of pareidolia are: constellations, the man on the moon, faces on toast, and your "rodent" on Mars (as well as all your evidence of a moon hoax, but that's beside the point).  You may think the odds of finding a rock that looks like a prairie dog are pretty low.  But, of all the rocks from all the images taken by all the rovers, the odds of finding one that bears a passing resemblance to an earth creature is very high.  Hence why we have a rock that looks a little like a prairie dog from that angle if you squint. 
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 13, 2016, 06:24:16 PM
Are you aware of the concept of "pareidolia?"  It's when our brains look for and find patterns where none exist.  Some examples of pareidolia are: constellations, the man on the moon, faces on toast, and your "rodent" on Mars (as well as all your evidence of a moon hoax, but that's beside the point).  You may think the odds of finding a rock that looks like a prairie dog are pretty low.  But, of all the rocks from all the images taken by all the rovers, the odds of finding one that bears a passing resemblance to an earth creature is very high.  Hence why we have a rock that looks a little like a prairie dog from that angle if you squint.

You also must take note 10 out of 10 people believe the "rock" in the picture is a rodent.

So if it looks like a legless prairie dog, 10 out of 10 people say it is a rodent, and it is a picture from NASA then it must be a prairie dog or a animal that looks like one.

I really wish FE's would at least make the attempt I did to offer evidence.  I took the 10 minutes to do a little research to find out where prairie dogs live. I tried to determine the areas where the picture could have been taken by correlating where prairie dogs live and arid/low vegetation locations.  Of course I made assumptions and can not say how accurate the data I used is.

Really displays the level of thought and thoroughness that is put into experiments and making conclusions from observations that is made.  No wonder why I can find an experiment in the wiki offered as conclusive proof with a 10 mile error.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 13, 2016, 08:10:59 PM
There is the matter of the front legs.  Seems I can see a shadow under the entire prairie dog.  The only thing I can see that looks like a leg seems very, very short compared to the pictures I just looked at.  It also seems more like being part of the cheek than a leg.

Some species of Prairie Dog rodents have short legs.

(https://vettips.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/bs_prairie_dogs_162x118.jpg)

Quote
By the way I did this, because I got tired of seeing answer from FE's just basically saying because that is how it is.  I actually researched and came up with locations that if it is a prairie dog where the picture could have been taken.  I did not just say it looks like a rodent and 10 out of 10 people thought it was.

At least for me and I am sure others this is the kind of stuff we are talking about when we say evidence.  It showed locations where prairie dogs live, places that and/or had limited vegetation, and pictures of those states that both prairie dogs lived and somewhat matched what we can see in the photo. I did not research any further to see if prairie dogs live in the areas the photos I posted.
I also assumed a prairie dog did not end up on an indoor set.

A picture of what many agree looks like a rodent is evidence of a rodent. Try not to claim that I provided "no evidence". Observational and experiential evidence is absolutely valid  and meaningful evidence.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 13, 2016, 09:21:28 PM
There is the matter of the front legs.  Seems I can see a shadow under the entire prairie dog.  The only thing I can see that looks like a leg seems very, very short compared to the pictures I just looked at.  It also seems more like being part of the cheek than a leg.

Some species of Prairie Dog rodents have short legs.

(https://vettips.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/bs_prairie_dogs_162x118.jpg)

Quote
By the way I did this, because I got tired of seeing answer from FE's just basically saying because that is how it is.  I actually researched and came up with locations that if it is a prairie dog where the picture could have been taken.  I did not just say it looks like a rodent and 10 out of 10 people thought it was.

At least for me and I am sure others this is the kind of stuff we are talking about when we say evidence.  It showed locations where prairie dogs live, places that and/or had limited vegetation, and pictures of those states that both prairie dogs lived and somewhat matched what we can see in the photo. I did not research any further to see if prairie dogs live in the areas the photos I posted.
I also assumed a prairie dog did not end up on an indoor set.

A picture of what many agree looks like a rodent is evidence of a rodent. Try not to claim that I provided "no evidence". Observational and experiential evidence is absolutely valid  and meaningful evidence.

There are different methods to determine the value of evidence.

Lets look at the statement many agree it looks like a rodent.  I agree it looks like a rodent, I also believe it is a rock.  So you can tell people I agree it looks like a rodent or a rock using the previous statement.  It is why when surveys or polls are done they can be manipulated to get the results you want.

You can just ask people, "Does this look like a rodent?" or ask them, "Does this look like a rodent? If so do you believe it is a rodent?"

I can manipulate the results in my favor by asking questions in a more bias way.  "Does this rock look like a rodent?" "If so do you believe this rock is a rodent?"

I can manipulate by knowing the bias of the people being asked. "This is a picture taken on Mars by NASA, is it a rock or rodent?"  Depending on bias I will make the assumption people who believe NASA is not part of a conspiracy will say rock and people who believe the in the conspiracy will likely not definitively say it is a rock.

I can also try to remove bias and just show the picture and reveal as little evidence as I could of where it was taken.  I could even not ask about what appears to be a rodent and just have people tell me what they see in the picture.

As you can see you telling me that, "A picture of what many agree looks like a rodent is evidence of a rodent.", is not evidence. Unless you can verify bias was not introduced, by how the question was asked, the size and demographics of the survey group as examples and the the data made available for review.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 13, 2016, 09:46:23 PM
Woody, you're losing it bro lol... Adding hella qualifiers to get out of the fact even you think it looks like a prarie dog.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Rama Set on March 13, 2016, 10:03:16 PM
Observational and experiential evidence is absolutely valid  and meaningful evidence.

Says the guy who disqualifies observational and experiential evidence he doesn't agree with.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 14, 2016, 12:20:09 AM
Woody, you're losing it bro lol... Adding hella qualifiers to get out of the fact even you think it looks like a prarie dog.

Tom said 10 out of 10 people he showed the picture to thought it was a rodent.   He used it to support his argument that NASA photographed a rodent. I pointed out reasons why the evidence is not as strong as he think it is.
If he showed the picture to people with out saying where it was taken or who took it and ask them to tell him what they see in the picture. He would have a stronger argument, since that method would help insure bias was not skewing the results.

It is why the scientific method includes an attempt to remove all factors that would introduce bias.

His argument is already shows it's weakness since not everyone is saying it is a rodent.  Of course the views being expressed are biased as I pointed out in the post you responded to.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 14, 2016, 12:27:19 AM
Woody, you're losing it bro lol... Adding hella qualifiers to get out of the fact even you think it looks like a prarie dog.

Tom said 10 out of 10 people he showed the picture to thought it was a rodent.   He used it to support his argument that NASA photographed a rodent. I pointed out reasons why the evidence is not as strong as he think it is.
If he showed the picture to people with out saying where it was taken or who took it and ask them to tell him what they see in the picture. He would have a stronger argument, since that method would help insure bias was not skewing the results.

It is why the scientific method includes an attempt to remove all factors that would introduce bias.

His argument is already shows it's weakness since not everyone is saying it is a rodent.  Of course the views being expressed are biased as I pointed out in the post you responded to.

If anything, your research made it even more obvious it could've been a rodent, even going as far as showing us pictures of different environments in America, that they could've faked the Mars rover, New Mexico being the most likely candidate.
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 14, 2016, 01:38:55 AM
Woody, you're losing it bro lol... Adding hella qualifiers to get out of the fact even you think it looks like a prarie dog.

Tom said 10 out of 10 people he showed the picture to thought it was a rodent.   He used it to support his argument that NASA photographed a rodent. I pointed out reasons why the evidence is not as strong as he think it is.
If he showed the picture to people with out saying where it was taken or who took it and ask them to tell him what they see in the picture. He would have a stronger argument, since that method would help insure bias was not skewing the results.

It is why the scientific method includes an attempt to remove all factors that would introduce bias.

His argument is already shows it's weakness since not everyone is saying it is a rodent.  Of course the views being expressed are biased as I pointed out in the post you responded to.

If anything, your research made it even more obvious it could've been a rodent, even going as far as showing us pictures of different environments in America, that they could've faked the Mars rover, New Mexico being the most likely candidate.

That is why I did it.  Did I not make it clear I did it as an example as evidence?  I wanted to show the difference between what Tom considered evidence it was a rodent and what myself and maybe others here would consider evidence that supports it is rodent.  I tried to make a plausible argument that it was, instead of just saying it looks like a rodent and 10 out of 10 people think it is.

I set out to find evidence of the type of rodent it could be(Tom pointed out the prairie dogs which saved me some time), where prairie dogs lived, if it was in areas that the picture could be taken.  Then offered what I found to support the claim it was a prairie dog. 

If you agree I made valid points and made it more obvious it could be a rodent why not try it when asked something about the FE model?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 14, 2016, 04:11:32 AM
Hoppy has a point.  I imagine the typical REer isn't convinced something is wrong until the doctor has confirmed it for him with more evidence that something is wrong than the fact that his senses are telling him that he's in horrible pain and showing him that his arm is bent horribly wrong.  After all our senses lie to us all the time and simply can't be trusted.  ::)
On the contrary, we REers have no reason to distrust the establishment, and we understand that our perception rarely conflicts with reality, but hardly ever shows the whole story from our scale.  Why would you FEers believe the doctor?  He's pointing out that your arm is obviously broken, but he could be trying to get your money for his own purposes, and is probably indoctrinated by the government.   :P

We FEers have no reason to distrust the establishment either.  I'm not sure where you're going with this.  I don't know how many times REers have told me I'm foolish to believe the Earth is flat just because I perceive it to be flat.  If pressed they often go to great lengths to demonstrate to me that my senses are always lying to me and can never be trusted.  They pull out obvious optical illusions, sets of boxes and vases that look like people and cars that appear to be going uphill while in neutral and all kinds of wacky shit.  I find it a wonder that REers are able to believe anything at all, considering that our senses are really our only way of interacting with the world around us, yet they seem to be believe they can't be trusted for anything.

I don't see where "the establishment" has anything to do with it.  In fact, as I've explained previously, medicine is one of the rare arts that puts practical zeteticism into use on a consistent basis and if anything its practitioners' adherence to a discipline so strongly anti-NASA suggests that they are more friend than foe.  I'm really just not sure I agree that NASA is part of "the establishment".  Their influence has weakened a great deal over the years.  Maybe at one time... but honestly, they are more like a novelty at this point than anything else (like a "Weird Al" song, or fake dog poo), and even at that they have gotten stale.

So medicine is the only or one of the very few professions that proceeds by inquiry?

You would have us believe that NASA simply crammed a cylinder full of explosive stuff, threw a couple of guys on top of it and aimed it at the moon hoping for the best?

And you would have us believe that NASA photographed a rock that looks exactly like a rodent on the surface of mars?

(http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/files/2013/06/Mars-rat.jpg)
Come on, that's obviously not a rodent.  Maybe if you squinted really hard at it, but otherwise, any normal person can see that it's just a rock.  Don't be stupid.

That's a fairly convincing rock. 10 out of 10 of the people I showed it to thought it was a rodent. It even has the black almond rodent eyes

(http://livrespensadores.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mars-rodent-orig-rover-composite1.jpg)

From your enlarged picture, follow the diagonal from the top right corner.  What type of fish do you believe that is?  What type of fish can live on land with your rodent?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 14, 2016, 04:12:37 AM
It's likely a prairie dog.

(http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/kids/photos/animals/Mammals/H-P/prairie-dog-eating.jpg.adapt.945.1.jpg)

Where's your source information?  How do we know that this is a true picture of a prairie dog?
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 14, 2016, 12:16:15 PM
I don't see a fish anywhere Dawg... and are you on that level now? Asking for a source of information on whether that was a prairie dog? I understand you're frustrated for whatever reason with probably some of the exchanges you've had here, but looks like you're being extra petty now lol
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: BlueMoon on March 14, 2016, 01:56:05 PM
Here's what the rock is probably shaped like.  The "eye" is most likely the shadow of a small rock behind it. 
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: geckothegeek on March 14, 2016, 05:38:48 PM
Notice there are also many small "black dot" shaped pebbles or rocks all over the ground that look like the "eyes" of the "animal."

Here is another one. Look just to the right of ""the animal. There is one with some of those "black dots" that looks like the face of a dog to me. LOL. All it takes is a bit of imagination !
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on March 14, 2016, 06:10:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVyVVi6_WB4

I guess those particular rocks must've crawled away
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: Woody on March 14, 2016, 07:00:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVyVVi6_WB4

I guess those particular rocks must've crawled away

(http://livrespensadores.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mars-rodent-orig-rover-composite1.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Y8lBJlP.jpg)

I very quick comparison tells me more than the "prairie dog" moved and rocks change their appearance.

I already showed where prairie dogs lived and possible locations where the picture was taken on Earth.  I will leave it to someone else to analyze the pictures and then present supporting evidence that it is a prairie dog.   
Title: Re: Perception
Post by: CableDawg on March 15, 2016, 04:55:08 AM
I don't see a fish anywhere Dawg... and are you on that level now? Asking for a source of information on whether that was a prairie dog? I understand you're frustrated for whatever reason with probably some of the exchanges you've had here, but looks like you're being extra petty now lol

So you openly acknowledge the pettiness of FE supporters demanding this, that or other documentation?

As far as frustration.  No.  I'm not frustrated at all.  But I do realize that FE supporters, at least in this part of the forum, are either unwilling or unable to interact on any basis other than low and petty.  I've got no problem interacting on a mature level but I'm not going to waste all of my time and energy to that end.