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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #140 on: April 29, 2018, 06:34:30 PM »
But I'd really like to see the 5Ghz processor that goes down to 800Mhz.
Is the account of a confused father not enough for you? You heartless bastard.
No. Fuck him and his child. They probably got that number from CPU-Z not realising that isn't what the processor is actually doing.

Where is Rushy? I could have entered my bios and underclocked my PC in this time. How hard is a screenshot?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #141 on: April 29, 2018, 06:37:23 PM »
No. Fuck him and his child. They probably got that number from CPU-Z not realising that isn't what the processor is actually doing.
CPU-Z is de facto the industry standard for these measurements. You're really reaching here.

Where is Rushy? I could have entered my bios and underclocked my PC in this time. How hard is a screenshot?
Don't worry, he's been working hard with the BBC to produce a top-notch vidya for you.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 06:40:50 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2018, 06:39:06 PM »
Yeah, gonna need to see something in real time. Something with a graph. Not just a theoretical calculation with a bus speed and multiplier.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 06:41:05 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2018, 06:41:39 PM »
Yeah, gonna need to see something in real time.
You still haven't clarified what you mean by that. Do you want a video? A live stream with zappers for participants to answer questions? A visit to my house laced with sexual innuendos?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #144 on: April 29, 2018, 06:48:13 PM »


This video isn't really for Thork, but for everyone who isn't Thork to learn something about how a computer actually works.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #145 on: April 29, 2018, 07:01:17 PM »
So ... your PC isn't at 800Mhz.

Whilst your "idle cores" go to 800Mhz, your active cores are still nailed at 2.2Ghz+. Hence the reason you can't get a real time graph showing 800Mhz. Your PC is always at 2.2Ghz or more. 

So thanks for showing me I'm right. Cheers.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #146 on: April 29, 2018, 07:04:11 PM »
So ... your PC isn't at 800Mhz.

Whilst your "idle cores" go to 800Mhz, your active cores are still nailed at 2.2Ghz+. Hence the reason you can't get a real time graph showing 800Mhz. Your PC is always at 2.2Ghz or more. 

So thanks for showing me I'm right. Cheers.

*This is what Thork actually believes*

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #147 on: April 29, 2018, 07:04:16 PM »
So ... your PC isn't at 800Mhz.
What makes you think so? You wanted something that's not based on a theoretical calculation, and Rushy provided exactly that.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #148 on: April 29, 2018, 07:06:27 PM »
So ... your PC isn't at 800Mhz.
What makes you think so? You wanted something that's not based on a theoretical calculation, and Rushy provided exactly that.
No. I wanted something real world and not theoretical. I asked as much about 8 times.

So ... your PC isn't at 800Mhz.

Whilst your "idle cores" go to 800Mhz, your active cores are still nailed at 2.2Ghz+. Hence the reason you can't get a real time graph showing 800Mhz. Your PC is always at 2.2Ghz or more. 

So thanks for showing me I'm right. Cheers.

*This is what Thork actually believes*
Yup. Do you have trouble reading numbers from a screen?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #149 on: April 29, 2018, 07:09:25 PM »
No. I wanted something real world and not theoretical. I asked as much about 8 times.
Well, exactly. CPU-Z produces its numbers by querying the hardware. taskmgr uses weighted averages and simplified maths. You keep stating what you want and complaining that people aren't showing you what you explicitly don't want.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #150 on: April 29, 2018, 07:15:09 PM »
An easier way to look at it would be through what governs the clock. The clock is always a multiple of the bus speed (it's quite literally impossible for it to be anything else in current CPU architectures). When you see things like task manager outputting 3.27, 1.92, 2.25, etc. these are quite frankly impossible clock numbers. The clock isn't actually at any of these numbers, but rather this is just an average of the clock speeds over time. It also doesn't help that a modern CPU can have multiple clock speeds thanks to advanced core architecture. Core 0, 1, 2 might be at 800 MHz while Core 3 is at 5000 MHz. Task manager would think this translates to 1.8 GHz clockspeed for the entire processor, which is why you should never trust what it says. It's gibberish.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:16:50 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #151 on: April 29, 2018, 08:38:25 PM »
...

Where and how the fuck did we go from "A CPU's Energy Draw" to "Look I can underclock it to 800 mhz!"?  Did I skip a page?  I think I skipped a page.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #152 on: April 29, 2018, 08:54:39 PM »
...

Okay so...
Isn't the CPU downgrading strictly as a power save feature and people like me who turn that off don't see it downstep?  ( downloaded CPU-Z and checked)

And Thork's system is likely the same?  Not conserving power by downgrading the clock speed of some cores when idle?

Also: Clock mulipliers are a thing, right?  And they can be changed on the fly can't they?  So a CPU core could run at a multiplier of x1, which would be whatever the FSB speed is.  Yes?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #153 on: April 29, 2018, 10:43:28 PM »
...

Okay so...
Isn't the CPU downgrading strictly as a power save feature and people like me who turn that off don't see it downstep?  ( downloaded CPU-Z and checked)

And Thork's system is likely the same?  Not conserving power by downgrading the clock speed of some cores when idle?

Also: Clock mulipliers are a thing, right?  And they can be changed on the fly can't they?  So a CPU core could run at a multiplier of x1, which would be whatever the FSB speed is.  Yes?

Many modern cpus will downclock when they idle to conserve energy. I highly suggest you don't turn this feature off, as it makes an enormous difference in how much energy your computer is using while idling, or even while doing simple tasks. And yes, you could run a CPU with a x1 multiplier, though I imagine you'll get some undesirable performance issues if that happens.

This makes a big difference because every time the clock signal goes from low-to-high or high-to-low then it consumes energy. By downclocking, you're allowing the computer to save energy when you don't need high clocks to keep up with whatever you're doing. The processor doesn't really need to check its current state, say, at a rate of 3 GHz, when it really isn't doing anything that requires that kind of throughput.

For a more in-depth approach to all of this, you can read about clock-gating here: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/use-of-clock-gating-to-reduce-power-consumption/ (keep in mind this article is talking more about turning the clock on/off in embedded systems, not necessarily talking about clocks used by a x86 processor.)

The key takeaway from all of this is that a clock signal wastes energy, even when the circuit its governing isn't actually doing anything. The higher the clockrate, the more energy you waste.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 11:06:50 PM by Rushy »

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Offline xasop

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #154 on: April 29, 2018, 10:54:07 PM »
Isn't the CPU downgrading strictly as a power save feature and people like me who turn that off don't see it downstep?

Why would you turn that off? You don't need your CPU's full power 99% of the time, because most programs are very rarely CPU-bound. Operating systems are very good at increasing the clock rate when needed, so there's no (or negligible) performance impact. You're just wasting electricity, as Rushy says, and possibly also making your fan louder than it needs to be.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #155 on: April 29, 2018, 11:29:19 PM »
This thread is as good as Infinity War
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline junker

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #156 on: April 30, 2018, 12:43:19 AM »
This thread is as good as Infinity War

Not until half the people die

JohnAdams1145

Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #157 on: April 30, 2018, 06:23:26 AM »
Out of curiosity, Baby Thork, from what university did you get your degree? What engineering is it in? Software? Certainly not electrical.

You must certainly understand the conservation of energy, do you? There's nowhere in a computer that can store the energy that gets put in (say, 30A @ 12V = 360W = 360J/s). So it has to be released as heat. Even the vibrations and fan movement get converted to heat (otherwise the fans would move faster and the vibrations would get bigger over time).

Landauer's principle deals with entropy and how energy must be converted to heat to manipulate information. It also deals with energy amounts far smaller than are relevant.

I can also show you a CPU that downclocks from ~20 MHz to 1 Hz when I set it to do that. Just get me an FPGA and I'll program one in for you. No virtual memory, minimal I/O, no exceptions, and no context switching.



Now, as for your assertion that 1 joule of electricity is not equal to 1 joule of heat. This is false. There is nowhere in the computer that will store this joule. Any computer that didn't produce 1 joule of heat from the 1 joule of electricity would simply accumulate energy. Do you mean to tell me my laptop is a bomb? There is a set amount of energy that any computer can store before it must convert the rest to heat (or simply just draw less).

Of course, if I charge my phone from my computer, then obviously 1 watt of electricity in does not produce 1 watt of heat. But that's nitpicking and not touching on the fundamental misunderstanding you have of ... physics.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #158 on: April 30, 2018, 12:22:41 PM »
I'm not sure why you have a problem with this.

Some of the power goes to other components via PCIe and other i/o. Therefore it isn't going to be heat on the die, is it? The power was transferred elsewhere. Also there are other ways to dissipate energy, such as electromagentic force, kinetic energy etc.

Not all the power into a CPU ends up as heat on the die. Its very simple.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #159 on: April 30, 2018, 02:42:16 PM »
I'm not sure why you have a problem with this.

Some of the power goes to other components via PCIe and other i/o. Therefore it isn't going to be heat on the die, is it? The power was transferred elsewhere. Also there are other ways to dissipate energy, such as electromagentic force, kinetic energy etc.

Not all the power into a CPU ends up as heat on the die. Its very simple.

You're talking about heat, EM waves, and kinetic energy as if those things are actually different when they are actually all forms of heat. If heat isn't being dissipated by the CPU, then power isn't, either. I don't care what other components are consuming power on the board. The power consumed by the CPU equals its heat output. What you're telling us is the the CPU consumes 100W, only dissipating 60W? That's not possible. You're erroneously including the power consumption of other parts of the computer in the power consumption of the CPU. Basically this is exactly what your problem was when you posted those two pictures earlier and claimed they proved your point when they actually did the opposite.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 02:59:14 PM by Rushy »