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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2018, 02:12:25 PM »
TDP Watts isn't power consumption. It is a heat guide as in one watt = one joule per second. Pete made the same conflation earlier. A 65W processor is not using 65W from the wall, it is throwing out 65W of heat. TDP. Thermal Power design.

Where the hell do you think that heat comes from? Never heard of the Law of Conservation of Energy?
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2018, 02:17:22 PM »
TDP Watts isn't power consumption. It is a heat guide as in one watt = one joule per second. Pete made the same conflation earlier. A 65W processor is not using 65W from the wall, it is throwing out 65W of heat. TDP. Thermal Power design.

No one here cares about how much is coming out of the wall, Thork. That just depends on your PSU efficiency and has nothing to do with your CPU.

Also, TDP is your power consumption. If the CPU is using 65W, it's outputting 65W of heat. There's no getting around that.

Agreed but when you do something like gaming, you are usually knocking close to the limit with a good GPU. CPU bottle necking is a thing on low resolutions with fast GPUs. A gtx 1080 running a game at 1080p will probably push enough frames to overwhelm most 65W TDP processors.

...Okay? What consumer is buying a GTX 1080 and then running a 1080p monitor? Not a very smart one.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 02:19:07 PM by Rushy »

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2018, 02:26:57 PM »
TDP Watts isn't power consumption. It is a heat guide as in one watt = one joule per second. Pete made the same conflation earlier. A 65W processor is not using 65W from the wall, it is throwing out 65W of heat. TDP. Thermal Power design.

Where the hell do you think that heat comes from? Never heard of the Law of Conservation of Energy?
???

The 65W TDP rating isn't watts= voltage x amps as Rushy asserted. 65W CPUs can pull way more power than that. 65W as in joules per second is what is thrown out as heat. And that is why after market fans are rated for the TDP of the processor. Got a 95W TDP fan, will dissipate 95W of heat thrown off a CPU. There are losses, some energy is dissipated in noise, vibration and some in useful work. That 65W is the shit left over. Like when you drive your car and only about 30% of the power from the gasoline gets to the wheels. The rest is lost to entropy via mechanical resistance, a warm engine, noise etc etc.

No one here cares about how much is coming out of the wall, Thork. That just depends on your PSU efficiency and has nothing to do with your CPU.

Also, TDP is your power consumption. If the CPU is using 65W, it's outputting 65W of heat. There's no getting around that.
Oh, Intel invented perpetual motion did they? A lossless machine? ffs.

...Okay? What consumer is buying a GTX 1080 and then running a 1080p monitor? Not a very smart one.
But by the same token, my RX580 is going to give my Ryzen 1400 a good workout. It'll throw a lot of frames but the system isn't going to give me 4k gaming, despite the screen being 4k.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2018, 02:35:33 PM »
The 65W TDP rating isn't watts= voltage x amps as Rushy asserted. 65W CPUs can pull way more power than that. 65W as in joules per second is what is thrown out as heat.

... it's the same unit. It just gets converted from electrical energy to thermal energy.

There are losses, some energy is dissipated in noise, vibration and some in useful work. That 65W is the shit left over. Like when you drive your car and only about 30% of the power from the gasoline gets to the wheels. The rest is lost to entropy via mechanical resistance, a warm engine, noise etc etc.

Ah yes, vibrating CPUs are always a problem for me as well.

Oh, Intel invented perpetual motion did they? A lossless machine? ffs.

Are you suggesting that heat is the useful product of a CPU? Because I fail to see how a CPU that produces 65W of heat is "lossless" otherwise.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2018, 02:36:52 PM »
The 65W TDP rating isn't watts= voltage x amps as Rushy asserted. 65W CPUs can pull way more power than that. 65W as in joules per second is what is thrown out as heat. And that is why after market fans are rated for the TDP of the processor. Got a 95W TDP fan, will dissipate 95W of heat thrown off a CPU. There are losses, some energy is dissipated in noise, vibration and some in useful work. That 65W is the shit left over. Like when you drive your car and only about 30% of the power from the gasoline gets to the wheels. The rest is lost to entropy via mechanical resistance, a warm engine, noise etc etc.

CPUs can pull more than their TDP, but it's unusual unless you're overclocking the CPU. At stock, the power usage of the processor at full tilt will be somewhere around their TDP. Usually lower, because the TDP is supposed to represent a theoretical maximum of heat dissipation.

For example:


I also don't see how that suddenly invalidates Watts = Voltage * Amperes...

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2018, 02:38:34 PM »


Take the i7 6700. It is a 65W TDP processor.

At idle it uses 71W. At load it uses 132 watts. Where does 65W come into that? The 65W TDP is the THERMAL POWER DESIGN ... how much heat it'll kick out at its 95 degree throttling limit on a CPU die that size. Its the waste. 132 watts goes in, 65 watts is expelled as heat at that design limit. You need a fan that will deal with 65W of expelled heat. No less. If you have a 45W TDP fan, its going to throttle below its advertised boost clocks and not perform as you expected.

Watts = joules per second.

65W is the max output waste in heat. Not the volts x amps the CPU needs to run.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 02:43:46 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2018, 02:42:44 PM »
132 watts goes in, 65 watts is expelled as heat at that design limit.

And where does the rest go? Does your CPU serenade you by vibrating out last year's Eurovision tunes like a 67W speaker?
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2018, 02:44:24 PM »
>Full system power draw
>Full system
>FULL SYSTEM

Thork this is the turning point where you either tell me you're trolling or you should really just stop. The graph you just posted is the output of the ENTIRE COMPUTER not the CPU.

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2018, 02:47:07 PM »
132 watts goes in, 65 watts is expelled as heat at that design limit.

And where does the rest go? Does your CPU serenade you by vibrating out last year's Eurovision tunes like a 67W speaker?

I already explained. Useful work ... moving switches, moving air and other damper issues, vibration, noise, ... you can't expect to put in 132W of energy, use every last watt and get that all out perfectly as heat. Machines don't convert energy that efficiently. Otherwise homes would be heated by CPUs.

>Full system power draw
>Full system
>FULL SYSTEM

Thork this is the turning point where you either tell me you're trolling or you should really just stop. The graph you just posted is the output of the ENTIRE COMPUTER not the CPU.
Don't be a muppet. A GPU can pull 300W. i7 computers don't pull just 132W at full load. You know that. That's why your PC hasn't got a 150W power supply.
Those charts are CPU only.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 02:49:28 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2018, 02:48:44 PM »
Thork I highly suggest you actually read the commentary regarding that picture on the website you pulled it from.

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2018, 02:50:20 PM »


Maybe you should. Same page. And here is the GPU draw.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2018, 02:53:04 PM »
I already explained. Useful work ... moving switches, moving air and other damper issues, vibration, noise, ... you can't expect to put in 132W of energy, use every last watt and get that all out perfectly as heat. Machines don't convert energy that efficiently. Otherwise homes would be heated by CPUs.

Heat is the waste product. CPUs do negligible amounts of useful work. Their job is to flip bits in memory, which uses almost no energy by itself, but produces a huge amount of waste heat as a byproduct.

CPUs aren't 100% efficient, they are (almost) 100% inefficient.

As for the other forms of waste you mentioned, have you ever heard your CPU producing tens of watts of noise or vibration?
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2018, 03:00:25 PM »
Yeah, no. Just google it. I can't explain it any simpler.

Maybe this guy explaining it will help?



TDP ... the shit heat expelled ... not the power draw.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2018, 03:20:47 PM »
Yeah, no. Just google it. I can't explain it any simpler.

The reason you can't explain it any simpler is that it's bullshit.

Maybe this guy explaining it will help?

This guy seems to be just as confused as you are. He's also talking about power draw "from the wall", which is not individual component power usage because of inefficiencies in the PSU.

You still haven't explained where the extra energy goes. If your point had any substance, you would be able to do that. Stop waving your hands and saying "useful work" and "my CPU is a vibrator" and explain, specifically, what form the extra energy takes.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2018, 03:23:11 PM »
Both me and the guy in the video explain where the energy goes. Stop being obtuse.

Losses. Entropy. You can't convert 100% of electrical energy into 100% heat energy. Especially in something not designed to turn energy into heat. A CPU is designed so you can use it to troll the hell out of me on this forum from a far off land. >:(
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2018, 03:24:20 PM »
Just a quick snide remark for Thork: Rushy and I are saying exactly the same thing, we're just approaching it from different angles. Telling me to read his take on what I already described differently is unlikely to change my mind.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2018, 03:28:01 PM »
Losses. Entropy.

Neither of these is a specific form of energy. Heat is a specific form of energy which falls into both of these categories. Try again.

You can't convert 100% of electrical energy into 100% heat energy.

There is a question of quantity here which you're conveniently ignoring. It's not as if you're saying that a CPU with 65W TDP is consuming 66W of power. You're saying it consumes twice as much power.

Stop using vague, hand-wavey "explanations" and tell me where the extra 67W of energy ends up.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2018, 03:36:27 PM »
Oh for fuck's sake, not another Thork thread where he says stupid things about technology and tricks everyone into responding for weeks.
Good game. Thanks for playing.  ::)

None of these are hard concepts. You can use google. you could learn. You'd ratehr tell me I'm wrong ... only I'm not.

Next week we should discuss why Intel CPUs are better at games than AMD, even though the IPC is very comparable for productivity. Explaining the difference between mesh, infinity fabric and ringbus will take me weeks at the rate you lot learn.

Losses. Entropy.

Neither of these is a specific form of energy. Heat is a specific form of energy which falls into both of these categories. Try again.

You can't convert 100% of electrical energy into 100% heat energy.

There is a question of quantity here which you're conveniently ignoring. It's not as if you're saying that a CPU with 65W TDP is consuming 66W of power. You're saying it consumes twice as much power.

Stop using vague, hand-wavey "explanations" and tell me where the extra 67W of energy ends up.
Well, some of the power is passed on to other components. CPU needs to talk to the ram? Needs to send electrical signals to it. Wants to talk to the GPU? More signals needed. Motherboard, resistors, signals to drives and other chips.
Some is lost to electro-magnetic radiation.
Some is noise, you can hear a CPU.
Some is vibration. If a CPU operates at 4GHz ... that's a lot of very shallow amplitude but high frequency oscillation. Imperceptible to you as a human, but guzzling power all the same.
Electrostatic losses when not all power sent to capacitors/transistors reaches them.
These days even quantum tunneling is a loss. Not all your electrons do the thing they were sent to do.
Working around broken transistors. Your CPU isn't perfect. Lots of the bits are broken and it has to reroute around this. This is to do with yields and the silicon lottery - that's a conversation for another day ... but another inefficiency all the same.

There are loads. A CPU isn't just made to generate heat. In fact it is designed to limit the heat as much as possible as heat will be the limiting factor on performance for that CPU. Otherwise you could just push it to 50GHz.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 03:46:55 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2018, 03:55:53 PM »
Well, some of the power is passed on to other components. CPU needs to talk to the ram? Needs to send electrical signals to it. Wants to talk to the GPU? More signals needed. Motherboard, resistors, signals to drives and other chips.

This is negligible, since the purpose of these signals is to transmit information and not power, so there isn't a lot of current involved. But more importantly, this will just be turned into waste heat when it reaches those components anyway, so it makes no difference to the total heat the system generates.

Some is lost to electro-magnetic radiation.

Which is a form of heat, albeit not one that needs to be extracted by a cooling system.

Some is noise, you can hear a CPU.

Not over a 10W speaker. Also negligible.

Some is vibration. If a CPU operates at 4GHz ... that's a lot of very shallow amplitude but high frequency oscillation. Imperceptible to you as a human, but guzzling power all the same.

4 GHz waves cannot permeate effectively in air. A 4 GHz sound wave in air has a wavelength of about 80 nm, which is short enough that it spans about 20 nitrogen molecules. You're playing pool with molecules at this point. This means the vibrations are never going to leave the computer, and therefore do not qualify as a form of loss.

Guess what happens to vibrations when they impart energy but don't travel very far as waves. Go on, you can think about this one for a bit.


Electrostatic losses when not all power send to capacitors/transistors reaches them.

Another form of heat...

These days even quantum tunneling is a loss. Not all your electrons do the thing they were sent to do.

"These days"? Are you aware that quantum tunneling didn't just spawn into existence when it was discovered?

Nevertheless, this is both negligible and irrelevant, since electrons are matter and not energy.

There are loads. A CPU isn't just made to generate heat.

Actually, that is literally what a CPU is designed to do. It's an entropy machine.

Are you familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics? It states that the total entropy of a closed system must always increase. Now consider what a computer is supposed to do. The job of a computer is to take disorganised data -- with high entropy -- and turn it into a form that can be easily accessed by humans -- with low entropy.

Now we have a problem. To do its job, a computer needs to reduce the total entropy in its memory banks. Since the entropy in a closed system cannot decrease, this means that the computer cannot be a closed system, and it must generate more entropy than it removes. The more entropy it generates, the better it performs.

This is the technical reason for the common sense correlation between higher TDP and better performance. When it comes to computers, better performance is more waste heat.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 03:58:47 PM by Parsifal »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2018, 03:59:28 PM »
Good game. Thanks for playing.  ::)
From IRC:

<&Parsifal> sexdroid: I have an engineering degree so I assumed it would be easy to understand
<@sexdroid> Yes
<@sexdroid> I regret losing my restraint in that thread
<@sexdroid> I got thoroughly Thork'd
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