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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2022, 10:42:10 PM »

I am also not sure that there are that many flights between South America and Africa. I did find people discussing the route in 2018 and suggesting that flights don't exist.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-no-airplane-fly-directly-from-South-America-to-South-Africa-if-its-shorter-distance-and-cheaper/answer/Lachie-Smith-3?comment_id=79717141&comment_type=2



If you do put in some flight routes between countries into a flight tool, you get some pretty odd results:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Brazil/Liberia


It's worth noting that even the Fortaleza to Portugal route still makes zero sense on a map with the split in the Atlantic.

Actually those odd routes to Europe do make some sense on the Atlantic Split map.

Venezuela to Nigeria:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Venezuela/Nigeria



Curious. Why do Venezuelans have to go to Europe to go to countries near the African equator? If you click on the flight alternatives on the left hand menu, they all make odd flight detours through Europe.

On the Atlantic Split:


Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2022, 11:14:25 PM »
The thing I don't understand with the bi-polar model is the way the sun moves.
The monopole model does a fairly reasonable job of explaining the sun's movement - it doesn't make that much sense in terms of consistent angular size during the day and so on. And there's no explanation of how the sun would move in the path claimed - why does the radius of its orbit keep changing? How does it speed up or slow down so that the orbit is a consistent day length? And what causes that to flip every 6 months. And that's without getting in to what actually powers the sun and keeps it burning given how small and close it apparently is. But, overall, it sort of explains some things and it explains the 24 hour sun in the Arctic. But it doesn't explain the 24 hour sun in the Antarctic so the FE response is often to simply deny that occurs.

The bipolar model could explain it though, but it would mean the sun flipping every 6 months between orbiting the north pole to orbiting the south pole. Again, no explanation for how that would happen is given, but it could work in terms of explaining the 24 hour sun which has been observed at both poles. But then you get in to a load of other problems about how that would in any way match other observations of the sun's movement.

All in all the bi-polar creates far more problems than it solves.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2022, 11:25:19 PM »


Actually those odd routes to Europe do make some sense on the Atlantic Split map.


Hundreds of things make no sense whatsoever on that map. Not least the 12 hour flight from Addis to São Paulo that I showed you earlier. You briefly alleged that it wasn’t bookable, but that post seemed to disappear very quickly, so I’m assuming you realised that you can indeed book that flight, and watch it on flight radar.

So would you concede that the existence of that flight means that map simply cannot possibly be correct?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2022, 12:02:39 AM »
I don't see any reason to trust those flight radar sites or that the flights exist as claimed.

There is a book which analyzes the flight radar routes and shows data suggesting that they are false. This book argues for a Flat Earth Monopole model, but the point that the routes may not exist as claimed is pertinent.

From Chapter 17:

Quote
I brought up flight tracking websites in this chapter because the
flight that we will be covering here had an extremely unusual and weird
change of path when it had to make an emergency landing. As it was being
tracked live, viewers took screenshots and posted on a discussion group
whose Mick West, a globe earth advocate, is the admin.

According to FlightRadar24, Hawaiian Airlines flight HA51/HAL51
was flying south of Salt Lake City over Utah when it abruptly changed its
path towards the northwest to make an emergency landing in Seattle. The
flight was being tracked live and the flight path being presented on the
screen was in accord with the globe earth model and Google Maps. Suddenly
the plane made a 90° degrees turn to its right and headed towards Seattle
for an emergency landing. How could that even be possible?

Details of the flight follow: Hawaiian Airlines flight HA51/HAL51
Airbus A330-243, Mode-5 code A479B2, Serial Number 1310, AGE 5 years,
Ground Speed 437 kts, True Airspeed 474 kts, Indicated Airspeed 271 kts,
Mach 0.812 (622 mph), FIR/UIR Salt Lake City, Radar T-KSLC3, Latitude
42.5208, Longitude -114.2024. The date as it happened was on Jun 5th,
2017.

As in Chapter 15 with Hawaiian Airlines flight HA50 making an
emergency landing in the Northwest region of the United States and Chapter
16 where we covered Hawaiian Airlines flight HA37 also making an
emergency landing in Oakland, CA 31 Miles NE of San Francisco in the
Northwest region of the United States, I was no surprised in learning this
plane made an emergency landing in Seattle. Most likely, this airplane
wasn’t even at the place where the tracking software was showing it to be.
Not much can be found about this flight or why it went from south of
Utah to Seattle for an emergency landing. Nevertheless, we still have to
compare the path of this flight as shown on the screenshot with the
Gleason’s Flat Earth Map on the next page and see what conclusion we get:



[

As compared on page 87 Image 03, the flight path of Hawaiian
Airlines flight HA51/HAL51 on the Gleason’s Flat Earth Map is a straight
line from New York JFK to Honolulu HNL in Hawaii having Seattle EXACTLY
along its path. We conclude that this emergency landing in Seattle makes
more sense when we look at the flat earth map and makes no sense at all
when it is looked at on the globe earth model. The path of this flight on the
screenshot showing the plane making an abrupt right turn and heading
northwest towards Seattle leaves a trail of questions: Why didn’t this plane
land in Salt Lake City since it was flying south of Utah? ? How about Las
Vegas? Why didn’t this flight keep going until it reached Los Angeles or
San Diego? What is wrong with San Diego and Los Angeles that these flights
coming from the Northeast towards Hawaii in the Southwest always land in
the Northwest region of the United States? Same thing happens with flights
coming from Hawaii towards the United States end up making emergency
landings in the northwest region of the United States?

Look below the distance between Seattle and Salt Lake City:



Just a reminder to the reader that, according to the screenshot
Hawaiian Airlines flight HA51/HAL51 was flying at least 200 Miles south of
Salt Lake City.

There are more flights by Hawaiian Airlines making emergency
landings in the northwest region of the United States. As a matter of fact,
there are several! Hawaiian Airlines have been plagued with emergency
landings in the last few years and it has been picked up by the media and
there are a couple of articles written online talking about the struggles that
Hawaiian Airlines has been having with emergency landings lately.
In Illustration 17a we compared the path of Hawaiian Airlines flight
HA51/HAL51 on both, the screenshot from FlighRadar24 as posted on the
discussion forum and on the Gleason’s Flat Earth Map. We will now
compare the flight path of HA51/HAL51 on the globe earth model according
to Google Maps with the Gleason’s Flat Earth Map. Let’s place both flight
paths side by side and see which one makes more sense: The spinning globe
earth model or the flat earth geocentric and stationary model:


So no, I don't see any verifiable evidence that these systems are actually providing accurate data.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 12:38:10 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2022, 02:28:55 AM »
This really shows your confirmation bias Tom.  You accept that the tracking data is correct wrt showing the flight being diverted to Seattle, but not that it is correct about the flight path from NY up to the point of diversion of this, let alone the usual nonstop flight (not going straight over Seattle but taking the globe great circle route to HNL).  Further this was obviously not a critical emergency since for that they would have landed in Salt Lake.  This was a diversion.  For diversions the airport to divert to is up to the airline.  For example losing a generator is not an issue as there are several but starting a long pacific flight down a generator is not advisable.   There could be many reasons why they diverted to Seattle. Maybe the part they needed was there, or maybe they were going to change planes and a replacement plane was in Seattle.  Without knowing the details its impossible to say but there is nothing in this that casts doubt on the tracking data, unless you have come to that conclusion first.
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

Offline scomato

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2022, 03:00:30 AM »
So the Bipolar model at least acknowledges the existence of the Antarctic continent, I hope that puts to rest some of the sad arguments such as Amundsen-Scott base being fake.

But if Antarctica is a continent and not the ice wall, does the Bipolar model flat earth still have an ice wall perimeter?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2022, 03:03:40 AM »
This really shows your confirmation bias Tom.  You accept that the tracking data is correct wrt showing the flight being diverted to Seattle, but not that it is correct about the flight path from NY up to the point of diversion of this, let alone the usual nonstop flight (not going straight over Seattle but taking the globe great circle route to HNL).  Further this was obviously not a critical emergency since for that they would have landed in Salt Lake.  This was a diversion.  For diversions the airport to divert to is up to the airline.  For example losing a generator is not an issue as there are several but starting a long pacific flight down a generator is not advisable.   There could be many reasons why they diverted to Seattle. Maybe the part they needed was there, or maybe they were going to change planes and a replacement plane was in Seattle.  Without knowing the details its impossible to say but there is nothing in this that casts doubt on the tracking data, unless you have come to that conclusion first.

Sure, you can speculate on lots of different explanations on what happened, but it remains an anomaly which happens to agree with the North Azimuthal projection. There are a lot of examples like that in the book. At some point it's a coincidence too many. The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

So the Bipolar model at least acknowledges the existence of the Antarctic continent, I hope that puts to rest some of the sad arguments such as Amundsen-Scott base being fake.

But if Antarctica is a continent and not the ice wall, does the Bipolar model flat earth still have an ice wall perimeter?

Presumably beyond the light of the Sun the water would naturally freeze.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 03:58:17 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2022, 04:57:08 AM »
The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

In Chapter 2 of that guy's book you presented, he talks about the Taiwan to LAX flight. Somone was about to give birth when they were near Hawaii and they diverted to Alaska.

How does the bi-polar model account for the emergency diversion to Alaska?



How would the anomaly work on the bi-polar model? As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2022, 05:18:48 AM »
Sure, you can speculate on lots of different explanations on what happened, but it remains an anomaly which happens to agree with the North Azimuthal projection.
How does it agree?  It does not show the path going direct from NYC to Seattle and most such flights show the expected great circle route as does the first part of the one you show.
If "bendy light" were real the spot shape and power output of large solid-state lasers would vary depending on their orientation relative to the surface of the earth, but this is not observed thus bendy light is not real.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2022, 06:08:27 AM »
I don't see any reason to trust those flight radar sites or that the flights exist as claimed.

[quote removed for brevity]

So no, I don't see any verifiable evidence that these systems are actually providing accurate data.

Wow.

So what are you suggesting is happening on FR24 then? Do you, like the author of that book, subscribe to the view that NASA are somehow providing the data to FR24, and that they distort everything to make it look like aircraft are flying great when they are, in fact, flying over some version of FE?

Do have any idea how utterly preposterous that sounds? I note you edited out his NASA conspiracy bit…is that because it doesn’t align with your wiki claim that there is no FE/RE conspiracy, just a space travel one? Or do you actually agree it’s a NASA thing?

So many things…what do you suppose happens on that Ethiopian flight then? Does it take roughly 12 hours to cross over to Sao Paulo?

Do you even understand how FR24 works? It is based on the ADS-B signal from aircraft, which carries unencrypted navigation data along with other information. The critical point to hoist aboard is it is fairly short range - 100 miles or so, depending on altitude. To get a global picture FR24 relies on lots of ground stations. The really cool thing is that you can become one yourself - this website explains it pretty well: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/tracking-airplanes-how-flightradar24-works/8389/amp/

The really important bit to note is that one of the main reasons for the system is to provide position information to ATC and other aircraft for safety purposes. If the data was wildly out, as you are suggesting, it would be extremely dangerous, as well as being very obvious to anybody flying an aircraft.

You are taking the word of a single person who draws NASA as a puppeteer controlling the flight information websites, but are rejecting a wealth of entirely consistent data from a global industry. Why?

Offline Gonzo

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2022, 08:54:33 AM »
That ‘book’ on ‘16 Emergency Landings’ is written by someone who has no working knowledge of flight planning, nor of handling in-flight emergencies and the practical, political and financial decisions made during them.

When I have time I’ll go through it and explain why things most likely happened as they did.

Offline scomato

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2022, 03:41:05 PM »

Presumably beyond the light of the Sun the water would naturally freeze.

Do you have any evidence for this new ice wall? At least the old Antarctic ice wall had photos of the Ross Ice Shelf as an attempt at proof.

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2022, 04:07:46 PM »
Just for the record, the guy who wrote the "16 Emergency Landings..." PDF that's been presented is Eddie Alencar. He has an FE channel on YT:



He is a Wedding Photographer:



That's right, our expert presented here regarding all things on how airline emergency procedures, routes, etc., work or should work, in his mind, is a Wedding Photography. Solid commercial aeronautic credentials, no doubt.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2022, 04:22:31 PM »
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2022, 04:38:18 PM »
The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

In Chapter 2 of that guy's book you presented, he talks about the Taiwan to LAX flight. Somone was about to give birth when they were near Hawaii and they diverted to Alaska.

How does the bi-polar model account for the emergency diversion to Alaska?



How would the anomaly work on the bi-polar model? As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

Did you bother to look where those locations are on that map? Even in that map it makes much more sense to land somewhere in the Arctic Circle than in Hawaii.

Do have any idea how utterly preposterous that sounds?

Argument by incredulity. That works.  ::)

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2022, 04:53:42 PM »
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)

One may not need aeronautics credentials, but a wedding photographer.  ::)

Seems like you have a thing for actual experts when it comes some things, but not others:

Well it's not possible to get those correlations; and Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.

Maybe you should post some counter-opinions from random unqualified people on the internet like stack, rama set, and aatw are assuredly trying to find. It's totally convincing to cite high school flunkies on mathematical questions.

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2022, 04:56:09 PM »
The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

In Chapter 2 of that guy's book you presented, he talks about the Taiwan to LAX flight. Somone was about to give birth when they were near Hawaii and they diverted to Alaska.

How does the bi-polar model account for the emergency diversion to Alaska?



How would the anomaly work on the bi-polar model? As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

Did you bother to look where those locations are on that map? Even in that map it makes much more sense to land somewhere in the Arctic Circle than in Hawaii.

You missed a question:

As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2022, 05:53:07 AM »
Interestingly, because of the Ukraine/Russia conflict, airlines are having to make massive route adjustments and even employ ETOPS ("Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards") in some cases because some go way up and over and near the north pole:

Polar express: How airlines are plotting a new route to Asia




Finnair is giving put N.Pole crossing "certificates"...


Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2022, 10:42:31 AM »
I don't see any reason to trust those flight radar sites or that the flights exist as claimed.

There is a book which analyzes the flight radar routes and shows data suggesting that they are false. This book argues for a Flat Earth Monopole model, but the point that the routes may not exist as claimed is pertinent.

As a wise man once said:

Wiki articles have been debunked numerous times, but the level of evidence you require to accept that is impossible to meet. But evidence which you think backs up a FE you accept fairly unquestioningly.

Case in point. What have you done to look in to this? I had a quick look at that "book" and it was laughable. Chapter 7 caught my eye. It says:

Quote
On November 20, 2016 Emirates flight EK225 had to make an emergency landing due to the fact that someone fell sick during the flight. Russian news agency TASS reported in its website that, “The plane landed at Moscow’s Domodedovo at 16:33 Moscow time as a 70-year-old passenger, an Indian national, felt sick. She will be taken to hospital," the source said”.

It goes on to say:

Quote
I examined this flight in my video “Six Emergency Landings that prove the earth is Flat” where I drew lines on a globe to demonstrate flight paths going both ways, on an Eastern direction
and on a Western direction. Image 01 on the next page will present to the reader the route of this flight on a globe going on an easterly direction crossing the United States as it descends Latitude lines crossing the Atlantic Ocean on to fly over Portugal and Spain. As shown on Google Maps, EK225 keeps on flying over the Mediterranean Sea and then over Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia until it reaches Dubai.

But that is NOT the flight path that this route takes. It's trivial to find this out. The actual flight path goes north of Greenland:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE225
https://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/sfo-to-dxb/
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Emirates-flight-from-SFO-to-DXB-fly-over-off-Greenland-and-North-Pole-then-lands-in-Dubai

If you find the distance between the two cities on Google Maps, that's exactly the path you get:



Oh, and look where Moscow is - I've put a pin there. Seems like a pretty reasonable place to divert to. Did you bother to look in to any of this or did you just accept it because it confirms your agenda?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2022, 12:46:59 PM »
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)

Correct, and even an Air Transport Pilot's Licence holder can probably point and shoot at a wedding, so I guess we are agreed that no one needs any particular skill to do anything.  (Thank God for the internet). 

Of course, in addition to a rudimentary knowledge of geometry, it would probably be an advantage to know which 3 dots have to be connected, what areas need to be avoided, and what other dots are available if one of the original dots gets deleted.   
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 12:51:06 PM by DuncanDoenitz »