Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2022, 06:43:23 PM »
]None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Well, for a start that map doesn’t begin to represent known distances between places, so you need to explain how ships and airplanes get around so accurately without knowing how far they’re going. And secondly your basis for this assertion is a “book”, which has simply incorrect claims in it. I analysed one of the chapters in some detail earlier in this thread, here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19222.msg261564#msg261564

And you simply ignored it. It took me 5 minutes to find out his claim about the flight route was incorrect. If you look at the actual route the diversion makes sense. You can cherry pick some examples where the diversion looks like it could also make sense on an AE map, but since that’s a map you don’t accept…so what?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2022, 07:46:12 PM »
LORAN routes are still in use, for instance.

Funny, Loran routes utilize great circle navigation...

By the mid-1960s, units with some transistorization were becoming more common, and a chain was set up in Vietnam to support the United States' war efforts there. A number of commercial airline operators experimented with the system as well, using it for navigation on the great circle route between North America and Europe. However, inertial platforms ultimately became more common in this role.[27]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C
Funny, no they don't. They can write anything they want to support the narrative.

Who is "they"?

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2022, 08:00:29 PM »
You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman. 

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map.

None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

"In September 2015, only 0.15 percent of 464,946 scheduled flights were diverted, which equates to about 698 flights."

- Your wedding photographer presents 16 diverted flights over the course of 30+ years out of maybe, highly approximated, 252,000 diversions.
- The AE map is a globe projection
- Your wedding photographer believes airline tracking is fake, yet somehow thinks he can track flights on his own
- What does any of this have to do with the Bi-polar model/map?
- What's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2022, 08:37:13 PM »
]None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Well, for a start that map doesn’t begin to represent known distances between places, so you need to explain how ships and airplanes get around so accurately without knowing how far they’re going. And secondly your basis for this assertion is a “book”, which has simply incorrect claims in it. I analysed one of the chapters in some detail earlier in this thread, here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19222.msg261564#msg261564

And you simply ignored it. It took me 5 minutes to find out his claim about the flight route was incorrect. If you look at the actual route the diversion makes sense. You can cherry pick some examples where the diversion looks like it could also make sense on an AE map, but since that’s a map you don’t accept…so what?


Actually I was able to confirm that Google Maps shows the same route as he claims in the book. From Chapter 7:



From Google Maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/SFO/DXB/@48.0981751,-66.047636,3z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x808f778c55555555:0xa4f25c571acded3f!2m2!1d-122.3789554!2d37.6213129!1m5!1m1!1s0x3e5f5d0693260e69:0xe695d4007a48eee9!2m2!1d55.3656728!2d25.2531745



His point in that section of his book is that the flight routes illustrated on Google Maps are false:



The flights actually take a different route almost over the North Pole. The fact that the shortest Globe route is similar to the shortest AE Map route in this case is irrelevant to this point that Google Maps paths are false.

He spends the entire chapter attacking Google Maps. I chalk this up to a failure in reading comprehension on your part.

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

No Tom.

I posted a non-exhaustive list of factors considered when choosing where to divert.

That ‘book’ claims that because a flight diverted to airport A instead of airport B, when it clearly (in the author’ mind) should have gone to airport B, that this is evidence of flat earth. No. It’s merely evidence that the flight diverted to airport A.

So still no explanation for why it occurs. Convincing.

- Your wedding photographer presents 16 diverted flights over the course of 30+ years out of maybe, highly approximated, 252,000 diversions.

Throwing out figures with zero analysis. That proves it.  ::)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 08:59:07 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2022, 09:07:00 PM »
Throwing out figures with zero analysis. That proves it.  ::)

I've never said I have "proved" anything. Just pointing out that the analysis has been done: You've shown that 16 flights over the course of 30+ years out of a potential 200,000+ diverted flights have followed a path on a globe. That's what the AE is anyway, a globe projection.

And I'm not sure what the AE has to do with the Bi-polar, which is another Globe Projection, specifically the Lambert azimuthal equal-area projection.

So on the Bi-polar, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX?

Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2022, 09:13:50 PM »
Now we're getting somewhere. 

Your "Google Maps excerpt" isn't a flight plan; it's an illustration to dramatise the concept of a flight between Dubai and San Francisco.  Is that where you've been going wrong all along?  Do you also believe that the London Underground trains travel in straight lines and take 30 degree corners, like the map?  Unbelievable. 

Now try asking Google Map for the distance between Dubai and San Francisco, and it will draw a great circle for you, over the Arctic, close to Moscow as we have been saying.

Jeepers, can't believe that you and the wedding guy thought it was a flight plan.  Unbelievable. 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2022, 09:15:14 PM »
I've never said I have "proved" anything. Just pointing out that the analysis has been done: You've shown that 16 flights over the course of 30+ years out of a potential 200,000+ diverted flights have followed a path on a globe.

You have not shown that they follow the path on a globe at all. Also, diverted flights != emergency landings. Diverting because of bad weather would be different than needing to make an emergency stop.

The author is getting his information from the emergency landings that make it into news articles or discussions, which would still only be a fewer number of the emergency landings which are noteworthy, such as a woman giving birth.

Quote
So on the Bi-polar, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX?

It would depend on the particular map, clearly. You can perform analysis on your own.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 09:53:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2022, 09:18:00 PM »
Now we're getting somewhere. 

Your "Google Maps excerpt" isn't a flight plan; it's an illustration to dramatise the concept of a flight between Dubai and San Francisco.  Is that where you've been going wrong all along?  Do you also believe that the London Underground trains travel in straight lines and take 30 degree corners, like the map?  Unbelievable. 

Now try asking Google Map for the distance between Dubai and San Francisco, and it will draw a great circle for you, over the Arctic, close to Moscow as we have been saying.

Jeepers, can't believe that you and the wedding guy thought it was a flight plan.  Unbelievable.

The author's point is that the Google Maps flight paths are wrong in that chapter. You are posting that you did the calculations in other ways and verified that the Google Maps flight path is wrong. This is what was claimed by the author, that it's wrong.

I didn't claim that Google Maps was a flight plan. It's showing wrong routes, which is an important point in these discussions because people will often use Google Maps in their research.

Pretty embarrassing on your part that you assume that someone is talking about a "flight plan" and rant about it when that claim was not made, and remark "Unbelievable" to this fantasy scenario as if that claim was made. Pretty embarrassing on your part that you can't understand that the author is criticizing the accuracy of the Google Maps fight path, which you agree is wrong. I would suggest that you pay careful attention to what you read in the future.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 09:46:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2022, 10:11:39 PM »
I've never said I have "proved" anything. Just pointing out that the analysis has been done: You've shown that 16 flights over the course of 30+ years out of a potential 200,000+ diverted flights have followed a path on a globe.

You have not shown that they follow the path on a globe at all. Also, diverted flights != emergency landings. Diverting because of bad weather would be different than needing to make an emergency stop.

The author is getting his information from the emergency landings that make it into news articles, which would still only be a fewer number of the emergency landings which are noteworthy, such as a woman giving birth.

How often do commercial airline flights have to make emergency landings? According to John Cox, a retired airline captain that flew for US Airways, emergency landings happen more than many of us would like to think. In 45+ years of aviation, Cox says he made between 10 and 15 emergency landings (in case you’re wondering, no one was injured and no damage was reported to any of the aircraft in the emergency landings Cox had to perform).
https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/blog/2015/may/how-rare-are-emergency-landings-/

One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

Quote
So on the Bi-polar, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX?

It would depend on the particular map, clearly. You can perform analysis on your own.

The map in the wiki, obviously. I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?






Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2022, 10:17:43 PM »
Actually I was able to confirm that Google Maps shows the same route as he claims in the book. From Chapter 7
OK, fair enough. I just looked up the distance between the two cities, I guess Google Maps in that case shows the shortest route which is the route the planes actually take.

Quote
His point in that section of his book is that the flight routes illustrated on Google Maps are false:
OK. So what? He says:

Quote
How could [the emergency landing in Moscow] be possible if the earth is supposed to be a sphere and Google Maps presents us the exact flight route going eastward? Well, the answer to this question is that the earth is not a globe!

No, the actual answer to that question is the route Google Maps presents in this case is not the correct flight route. I can't sensibly talk about why that is, but if you look at the route those planes actually take, a stop in Moscow makes perfect sense.
He also says:

Quote
Google Maps flight paths do not match reality! It’s when emergency landings happen that we learn the true flight routes of these
flights. This problem is not only found in Google Maps. In fact, all flight tracker websites are connected with one master program which is created by NASA.

Which is bullshit.
"When emergency landings happen that we learn the true flight routes of these flights". What utter nonsense, it took me 5 minutes to find the route these flights take.
"all flight tracker websites are connected with one master program which is created by NASA."
He provides zero evidence for this. But because it backs up your narrative you lap it up.
It tales less than 5 minutes to find out that this is nonsense. The first flight tracker I found shows the route a recent flight between SFO and DXB took:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek226#2b45539e

It clearly shows that northern route which multiple other sources said that route takes.
And note the fact that this particular flight did NOT go near Moscow - obviously because of the ongoing situation they kept out of Russian airspace. So you can even correlate data from tracking sites like this with real world events to verify them.

Quote
He spends the entire chapter attacking Google Maps.
He does. And he's correct about the flight path. But he leaps to ridiculous conclusions. Again, I don't know why Google Maps' flight plan is inaccurate, but multiple other sources which are more dedicated to flight planning and live tracking sites show the paths these planes actually take and an emergency stop in Moscow makes perfect sense. Google Maps also correctly shows that northern route if you just do "measure distance" between the two cities. So, at best, all he's got is there's a bug in Google Maps. Multiple other sources show the correct flight path, live tracking sites back that up.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2022, 10:20:37 PM »
One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

My math is that you didn't bother to provide any assessment on where those emergency landings were and are simply assuming that they favor your preferred model.

Quote from: stack
The map in the wiki, obviously.

There are multiple maps and layouts for the Bi-Polar model in the wiki. I would suggest you review - https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model



Both of these have differences between the map you posted. It also clearly says on that page that there is no Bi-Polar map and that these are examples of a possible layout.

Quote from: stack
I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?





The fact that the emergency landing occurred in Alaska and not Hawaii still makes more sense on that particular map. If the route hugged the coasts of Asia and North America in the Pacific Ocean, it would make sense for an emergency landing in Alaska and not Hawaii.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 10:28:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2022, 10:24:40 PM »
One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

My math is that you didn't bother to provide any assessment on where those emergency landings were and simply assume that they favor your preferred model.

Quote
The map in the wiki, obviously.

There are multiple maps and layouts for the bi-polar model in the wiki. I would suggest you review - https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model



Both of these have differences between the map you posted. It also clearly says on that page that there is no Bi-Polar map and that these are examples of a possible layout.

Quote
I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?





The fact that the emergency landing occurred in Alaska and not Hawaii still makes more sense on that particular map. If the route hugged the coasts of Asia and North America in the Pacific Ocean, it would still make sense for an emergency landing in Alaska and not Hawaii.
What about the WGS84 model?

Offline Gonzo

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2022, 10:53:28 PM »


You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

No Tom.

I posted a non-exhaustive list of factors considered when choosing where to divert.

That ‘book’ claims that because a flight diverted to airport A instead of airport B, when it clearly (in the author’ mind) should have gone to airport B, that this is evidence of flat earth. No. It’s merely evidence that the flight diverted to airport A.

So still no explanation for why it occurs. Convincing.

An explanation for why what occurs?

Have a look at a sample of, for example, the routes taken by flight HAL50 from KHNL-KJFK. One can see the route varies quite a bit, sometimes coasting in near LA, other days over San Francisco, and sometimes even near Seattle. This would be down to many factors of course, but mainly the upper winds and any airspace restrictions and the need to avoid the resultant delays (a major factor in the flight planning of international flights is the difference in airspace route charges between nations (not a factor here, of course). A longer flight burning more fuel might work out less costly overall if it avoids flying through an expensive FIR (Flight Information Region)).

The 'book' claims in Chapter 15 that the aircraft should have landed in LA as that would be closer, the author not realising a) that flight routes vary over time, especially oceanic routes, and b) that the Great Circle route from KHNL to KJFK actually passes almost straight over San Francisco itself, rather than over LA as he claims.

It's incredible that some here seem to hold this 'book' up as evidence of anything other than the author's lack of understanding and knowledge of aviation.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 10:57:27 PM by Gonzo »

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Offline stack

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Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2022, 07:04:42 PM »
Melbourne to Dallas in 17 hours: Qantas announces latest ultra long-haul flight to US
The MEL-DFW direct route clocks in around the 17-hour mark, which will add it to the list of the world's longest flights. Tickets for the inaugural flight are on sale now.
Last week, Air New Zealand added a new route to the ultra long-haul club, announcing plans to launch direct flights between Auckland and New York City -- a first for the Kiwi airline. Flights leaving JFK for Auckland will clock in at 17 hours and 35 minutes.
Currently, the longest passenger flight in the world runs between Singapore and JFK on Singapore Airlines. It covers 9,534 miles and spends about 18 hours in the air.