The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 04:59:19 PM

Title: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 04:59:19 PM
In my experience with the Flat Earth Models, I've most frequently come across 3 models- Monopole North-Centered seems to be the most common, and then Monopole South-Centered and Bipolar crop up sometimes. This trifold nature presents a certain difficulty- many Round Earth arguments only address Monopole North-Centered. As such, argument for each model is used interchangeably. I think it would be valuable to address each of these one at a time.

I'm starting with Bipolar because it presents the most immediate problem. The wiki itself says "The continental layout is unknown and has yet to be fully researched due to ambiguities of jet streams, flight routing, and non-direct flights". Any single attempt at finding a hole in one continental layout can be addressed with another layout. So lets knock them out all at once.

All arguments will reference "splits". These are simply divisions in the bipolar model which are not present in the globe model. I'm coming at this from a Globe point of view because that's the predominant model, and thus the frame of reference the average person would expect.  For example, in this model,
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Altmap.png/250px-Altmap.png)
there is a "split" in the Pacific.

The first layout which can be discarded is any layout which splits populated landmasses. I don't expect this to be a point of contention- if there was a split through North America, people would notice. Even if there was a split through Siberia, people would notice, because of the Trans-Siberian Railroad.

The second layout which can be discarded is any split through the Atlantic Ocean. The Atlantic has been regularly traversed by ships since the late 15th to early 16th century, and trade routes are well documented. It also is the shortest route between North America and Europe, and is regularly traversed by planes and ships. This discards maps such as this:
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/b/b9/Atlantic_Split_Bi-Polar.jpg/250px-Atlantic_Split_Bi-Polar.jpg)

The third layout is the predominant one for bipolar models. This places the split somewhere in the Pacific ocean, and is most common likely due to the size of the Pacific Ocean. Because of the this, civilians do not traverse the Pacific ocean as often as they do the Atlantic. These images have the split in the Pacific ocean:
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Altmap.png/250px-Altmap.png)
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/7/7b/Sandokhan_map.png/250px-Sandokhan_map.png)

However, there are a multitude of problems with this configuration of the bipolar model.

First of all, there is yours truly. I have flown from Brisbane, Australia, to Dallas, Texas, probably 8 to 10 times. The flight took approximately 17 hours. After a while, Qantas stopped running the Brisbane to Dallas route, and since then I've taken the Brisbane to Los Angeles route. This is an extremely long flight in either of these, passing over either Asia, or Africa. I'm one of many who have flown from Australia to America.

Additonally, many other flights exist which cross the Pacific. These include Auckland to Santiago, Manila to Los Angeles, and Tokyo to Mexico City, to name but a few. https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-tokyo-nrt (https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-tokyo-nrt) allows anybody to see almost every flight route in existence, just by clicking on a departure airport. I'm aware of the Issues in Flight Analysis article- but that deals mainly with using flight time to analyze distance, not with the existence of a flight route that would pass off the edge of the earth in a certain model.

Finally there's the existence of shipping lanes. Living in America, many goods will come from China, and they are brought on cargo ships. The Pacific might see fewer civilian crossings than the Atlantic, but it sees a great deal of commercial traffic. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:135.9/centery:16.8/zoom:2 (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:135.9/centery:16.8/zoom:2) shows the amount of traffic crossing the Pacific at every latitude.

This discards splits in the Pacific. So what's left? Where could the split possibly be drawn other than the Pacific, Atlantic, or somewhere it bisects populated land?

Looking forwards to debating this.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 05:31:15 PM
The second layout which can be discarded is any split through the Atlantic Ocean. The Atlantic has been regularly traversed by ships since the late 15th to early 16th century, and trade routes are well documented. It also is the shortest route between North America and Europe, and is regularly traversed by planes and ships. This discards maps such as this:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/b/b9/Atlantic_Split_Bi-Polar.jpg/250px-Atlantic_Split_Bi-Polar.jpg)

See this thread: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=16645.0

There are Atlantic Ocean anomalies referenced there:

A testimonial of someone who sailed from Cape Verdes islands off of Africa (near the north western corner) to Brazil (north eastern corner), took 20 days:

https://www.yachtmollymawk.com/2011/11/atlantic-crossing-brazil/

Some interesting quotes:

Quote
The passage from the Cape Verdes across the Atlantic to the north-eastern corner of Brazil is pretty much the shortest ocean crossing that one can possibly make – it’s less than half the distance of the passage between the Canary Islands and the Caribbean – but although the miles are far fewer, weather conditions on this route are apt to be somewhat less favourable. Somehow or other you have to get through that infamous belt of calms which girdles the centre of the world. At best, things are slow; at worst you might sit around for days on end, “a painted ship upon a painted ocean”.

Quote
We dropped the main and furled the genny, but even under mizzen alone we were still travelling through the water at 7 knots. However, according to the GPS we were only actually making up at 2 knots…!

Bad Reputation

Apparently sailing along areas near the equator in the Atlantic Ocean has a bad reputation in maritime history, attributed to the odd "weather patterns":

https://archive.theoceanrace.com/en/news/10308_Seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-Doldrums.html

Quote
The infamous area around the Equator has frustrated and puzzled sailors for centuries

~

It has a bit of a reputation. In fact, a pretty bad one. The Doldrums holds a distinct place in maritime history, having developed a reputation as a potentially deadly zone which could strand ships for weeks on end, causing them to run out of food and drinking water. In those days, with supplies running low, and scurvy setting in, delerium, starvation and cabin fever could all set in – and getting through this mysterious patch of Atlantic Ocean quickly wasn’t just a matter of first or last place, but life and death.

If it has a bad reputation and is referred to as a "mysterious patch of Atlantic Ocean" in maritime history, I'm not sure that those assumptions about shipping from the 15th and 16th century really hold up.

I am also not sure that there are that many flights between South America and Africa. I did find people discussing the route in 2018 and suggesting that flights don't exist.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-no-airplane-fly-directly-from-South-America-to-South-Africa-if-its-shorter-distance-and-cheaper/answer/Lachie-Smith-3?comment_id=79717141&comment_type=2

(https://i.imgur.com/5fORMuv.png)

If you do put in some flight routes between countries into a flight tool, you get some pretty odd results:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Brazil/Liberia

(https://i.imgur.com/uuG2rQB.png)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 05:50:32 PM
The doldrums have an infamous reputation primarily for becalming ships- if you look at a map of trade winds, you can see that areas where trade winds intersect have little or no winds. You even included that in your quote "that infamous belt of calms"
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5d/0d/13/5d0d13d9f60f10d14c2cccb38b09cda0--arrow-show-the-arrow.jpg)

If you look just a little bit further than skin deep, you can see why the doldrums are dangerous- with sailing ships as the primary method of transportation, entering an area with very little wind was deadly. For example, if you check the NOAA website: https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/doldrums.html (https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/doldrums.html)

Now that ships with engines are primarily used, the doldrums have become much less of a threat and are just as frequently traveled as the many other routes between Africa and South America: https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:15.9/centery:-27.2/zoom:3 (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:15.9/centery:-27.2/zoom:3)

As for that GPS measurement- again, the answer to this is referenced in the blog post. The ship is traveling through the water at 7 knots- but with a back current. It's like a headwind in a plane, which is why their speed relative to the earth (on the GPS) is only 2 knots. The post explains this-
Quote
If you are only doing 5 knots through the water and are tacking along, zig-zagging your way down the coast, then a 2 knot current is a considerable hindrance; but it is not the end of the world.  However, as we drew closer to the coast it became clear that the current was actually flowing at far more than the rate advertised.

As for my shipping references from the 15th and 16th century- I was merely referring to the amount of time humans have been crossing the Atlantic regularly- since Christopher Columbus. I'm aware Vikings and Portuguese fishermen crossed it first. Since then, shipping activities have greatly intensified.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 05:52:39 PM
Quote from: jomples
The doldrums have an infamous reputation primarily for becalming ships- if you look at a map of trade winds, you can see that areas where trade winds intersect have little or no winds. You even included that in your quote "that infamous belt of calms"

Yes, and it contradicts the assumption that ships from the 15th and 16th centuries have traversed areas between Africa and South America without issue.

Quote from: jomples
Now that ships with engines are primarily used, the doldrums have become much less of a threat and are just as frequently traveled as the many other routes between Africa and South America: https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:15.9/centery:-27.2/zoom:3

You linked us to a Mercator map with multicolored ships on it, not any sort of ship logs or verification. You are posting a source which does not specifically state what is experienced and you are making sweeping assumptions of what is experienced.

You had originally wanted to talk about ships from the 15th and 16th century in your post, which you claimed debunked it, and now suddenly you want to talk about something else now, which we must now make a list of assumptions about in your favor.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 07:06:23 PM
I understand the source of confusion now. What I said in my post was:
The Atlantic has been regularly traversed by ships since the late 15th to early 16th century, and trade routes are well documented.
I never said that ships regularly traveled from Africa to Sourh America. That was you. However, the doldrums are a fairly thin area, and although that region was dangerous, other regions weren't.

Sorry for not saying what the source I linked was, I was relying on context. This: https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:41.0/centery:-17.3/zoom:2 (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:41.0/centery:-17.3/zoom:2) is marinetraffic.com, an opensource shiptracking site. It shows the realtime location of thousands of maritime vessels. I merely wanted to show you that shipping occurs throughout the Atlantic. It's actually pretty cool, you can find all sorts of things through the clusters of ships, like trade routes or what I assume to be military convoys: https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-20.9/centery:-29.2/zoom:11 (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-20.9/centery:-29.2/zoom:11). Take a look.

As far as actual trade routes- this map https://www.shipmap.org/ (https://www.shipmap.org/) shows individual ships as well, but moving a bit quicker.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 19, 2022, 07:10:47 PM
Jomple's "multicolored ships" are real, steel ships, with crews and commercial cargo on them; real things getting transported places.  Its a Mercator projection because that's what fits conveniently on a computer screen.  It obviously isn't to scale, because its a projection. 

I invite you to look again at Marine Traffic.  Lets take the container ship Hundai Jakarta.  (hint; its a green ship).  It is currently about 300km south east of its destination, the port of Santos, Sao Paolo, Brazil, where it anticipates arriving in the early hours of tomorrow (Brazil time), having transited the South Atlantic.  It left Kattupalli, Chennai, India at 18.06 local time on 26 Feb 2022.  Its current speed over ground is 13.6 kts on a course of 296 deg.  If that were its average speed, it would travel 326 NM per day, or 605 km per day.  I just measured the global distances for a typical great-circle journey down the east coast of India, around Sri Lanka, around the cape of Good Hope to Santos as slightly over 15000 km.  At 605 km per day that would give a voyage time of 24 days.  Actual voyage time seems to be around 22 days, which I think is pretty close, considering that we only did the math based on its current speed.  Someone like RonJ could probably advise us better. 

So; what have we got.  Real ship, actual speed, actual distance, voyage time seem to marry up.  Alternatives we could explore:

1.   Ship doesn't exist. 
2.   Ship did not leave India on the date stated. 
3.   The "Winds That Must Not Be Named".  (Note that the South Atlantic is actually bursting at the seams with red and green ships sailing both East and West.  Some wind). 
4.   Disc World; of course, for this to work, we would need know the distance on a flat map. 
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 07:17:53 PM
Quote from: jomples
I never said that ships regularly traveled from Africa to Sourh America. That was you.

In the first post when you discarded the model you said "The Atlantic has been regularly traversed by ships since the late 15th to early 16th century"

But you were not talking about ships traveling between Africa and South America. Okay.  ::)

Quote from: DuncanDoenitz
Real ship, actual speed, actual distance, voyage time seem to marry up

Really, where is this analysis?

You are making assumptions without demonstration.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 19, 2022, 07:32:39 PM
Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts. 
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 07:38:19 PM
Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 19, 2022, 08:02:08 PM
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths. 
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 19, 2022, 08:07:01 PM
Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

All of the log data is available if you have an account.

Hundai Jakarta (http://asset_type=voyage_timeline&columns=shipname,event,timestamp,event_content,area,area_local,speed,course,lat,lon,show_on_map&quicksearch|begins|HYUNDAI%20JAKARTA|quicksearch_vessel=463046&timestamp_between|range_date|timestamp_between=2022-03-15,2022-03-19)

(https://i.imgur.com/e4Mi2t6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sjs87gP.jpg)

Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 19, 2022, 08:21:59 PM

I am also not sure that there are that many flights between South America and Africa. I did find people discussing the route in 2018 and suggesting that flights don't exist.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-no-airplane-fly-directly-from-South-America-to-South-Africa-if-its-shorter-distance-and-cheaper/answer/Lachie-Smith-3?comment_id=79717141&comment_type=2

(https://i.imgur.com/5fORMuv.png)

If you do put in some flight routes between countries into a flight tool, you get some pretty odd results:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Brazil/Liberia

(https://i.imgur.com/uuG2rQB.png)

Ethiopian airlines does a regular flight to São Paulo. Takes about 12 hours. How many flights do you need to happen before you believe it to be possible?

 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/et506
 (https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/et506)


(Edited to fix quote error)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 19, 2022, 08:36:25 PM
I'm guessing that considering Monrovia has a population of 939,524 versus Addis Ababa, population 5,227,794, that airlines would have a direct to Sao Paulo out of Ethiopia rather than Liberia. In totality, Liberia's population is 5,000,000. Same as just the capital of Ethiopia. Ethiopia's total population, 120,000,000.

Here's the flight:

(https://i.imgur.com/GFHg7Oa.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 08:50:14 PM
Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

Tom- go into the mapping tool provided and click on one of the ships. If you hover your cursor over one near the coast and it has a name, it's within range of Coastal AIS and you can see some details about it. If it's out of range, then satellite tracking is used, and you have to pay for that. That's what Duncan's telling you to do.

Again, the reason I included MarineTraffic was to show the density of ships that are currently in the Atlantic. It's a live map, so either someone's faking ship location data, commercial vessels are taking some pretty wacky routes, or (my personal favorite) there's no giant split in the Atlantic.

You wanted to see ship routes, so I included https://www.shipmap.org/ (https://www.shipmap.org/), which has a timelapse of 2012 shipping routes. I'm still working on finding a repositorie of manifests.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 08:52:59 PM
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths.

So you just assumed a bunch of things and claimed it to be fact, and don't actually have data for us. I see.

Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

All of the log data is available if you have an account.

Hundai Jakarta (http://asset_type=voyage_timeline&columns=shipname,event,timestamp,event_content,area,area_local,speed,course,lat,lon,show_on_map&quicksearch|begins|HYUNDAI%20JAKARTA|quicksearch_vessel=463046&timestamp_between|range_date|timestamp_between=2022-03-15,2022-03-19)

(https://i.imgur.com/e4Mi2t6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sjs87gP.jpg)

A path across a few degrees proves this? Where are the full logs?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 09:04:08 PM
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths.

So you just assumed a bunch of things and claimed it to be fact, and don't actually have data for us. I see.

Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

All of the log data is available if you have an account.

Hundai Jakarta (http://asset_type=voyage_timeline&columns=shipname,event,timestamp,event_content,area,area_local,speed,course,lat,lon,show_on_map&quicksearch|begins|HYUNDAI%20JAKARTA|quicksearch_vessel=463046&timestamp_between|range_date|timestamp_between=2022-03-15,2022-03-19)

(https://i.imgur.com/e4Mi2t6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sjs87gP.jpg)

So a path across three degrees proves this? Where are the full logs?

I believe you have to pay to access the full datasets. I'm working on figuring out how to get logs.

[Edit: You do need to pay- but you can get a 7 day free trial, after which it's 1300 dollars a year. So probably cancel before then. If you sign up at all.]
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 19, 2022, 09:08:42 PM
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths.

So you just assumed a bunch of things and claimed it to be fact, and don't actually have data for us. I see.

Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

All of the log data is available if you have an account.

Hundai Jakarta (http://asset_type=voyage_timeline&columns=shipname,event,timestamp,event_content,area,area_local,speed,course,lat,lon,show_on_map&quicksearch|begins|HYUNDAI%20JAKARTA|quicksearch_vessel=463046&timestamp_between|range_date|timestamp_between=2022-03-15,2022-03-19)

(https://i.imgur.com/e4Mi2t6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sjs87gP.jpg)

A path across three degrees proves this? Where are the full logs?

I didn't say anything proves anything. You were asking about data. If your purchase a standard account, $50 or so, you can can see the logs for a ship's complete journey. I'm sure you're able to figure how to pay for an online service.

In short, the data is there, you just need to pay to access all of it. I'm not sure why I have to explain this to you.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 19, 2022, 09:12:43 PM
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths.

So you just assumed a bunch of things and claimed it to be fact, and don't actually have data for us. I see.

Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

All of the log data is available if you have an account.

Hundai Jakarta (http://asset_type=voyage_timeline&columns=shipname,event,timestamp,event_content,area,area_local,speed,course,lat,lon,show_on_map&quicksearch|begins|HYUNDAI%20JAKARTA|quicksearch_vessel=463046&timestamp_between|range_date|timestamp_between=2022-03-15,2022-03-19)

(https://i.imgur.com/e4Mi2t6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/sjs87gP.jpg)

A path across three degrees proves this? Where are the full logs?


You have me sunk, Tom.  I assumed that the ship exists, that it sailed from Chennai and will arrive in Sao Paolo tomorrow.  Naivety on my part. 

As a counter argument, how do you propose that the containers are getting to South America?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 10:37:35 PM
In other words you claim to know that you're right about the shipping data, but don't have the data and have been assuming that it exists in your favor.  ::)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: jomples on March 19, 2022, 10:38:19 PM

I am also not sure that there are that many flights between South America and Africa. I did find people discussing the route in 2018 and suggesting that flights don't exist.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-no-airplane-fly-directly-from-South-America-to-South-Africa-if-its-shorter-distance-and-cheaper/answer/Lachie-Smith-3?comment_id=79717141&comment_type=2

(https://i.imgur.com/5fORMuv.png)

If you do put in some flight routes between countries into a flight tool, you get some pretty odd results:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Brazil/Liberia

(https://i.imgur.com/uuG2rQB.png)
It's worth noting that even the Fortaleza to Portugal route still makes zero sense on a map with the split in the Atlantic.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 19, 2022, 10:42:10 PM

I am also not sure that there are that many flights between South America and Africa. I did find people discussing the route in 2018 and suggesting that flights don't exist.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-no-airplane-fly-directly-from-South-America-to-South-Africa-if-its-shorter-distance-and-cheaper/answer/Lachie-Smith-3?comment_id=79717141&comment_type=2

(https://i.imgur.com/5fORMuv.png)

If you do put in some flight routes between countries into a flight tool, you get some pretty odd results:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Brazil/Liberia

(https://i.imgur.com/uuG2rQB.png)
It's worth noting that even the Fortaleza to Portugal route still makes zero sense on a map with the split in the Atlantic.

Actually those odd routes to Europe do make some sense on the Atlantic Split map.

Venezuela to Nigeria:

https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Venezuela/Nigeria

(https://i.imgur.com/BVg4iRM.png)

Curious. Why do Venezuelans have to go to Europe to go to countries near the African equator? If you click on the flight alternatives on the left hand menu, they all make odd flight detours through Europe.

On the Atlantic Split:

(https://i.imgur.com/ffZa0UT.png)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 19, 2022, 11:14:25 PM
The thing I don't understand with the bi-polar model is the way the sun moves.
The monopole model does a fairly reasonable job of explaining the sun's movement - it doesn't make that much sense in terms of consistent angular size during the day and so on. And there's no explanation of how the sun would move in the path claimed - why does the radius of its orbit keep changing? How does it speed up or slow down so that the orbit is a consistent day length? And what causes that to flip every 6 months. And that's without getting in to what actually powers the sun and keeps it burning given how small and close it apparently is. But, overall, it sort of explains some things and it explains the 24 hour sun in the Arctic. But it doesn't explain the 24 hour sun in the Antarctic so the FE response is often to simply deny that occurs.

The bipolar model could explain it though, but it would mean the sun flipping every 6 months between orbiting the north pole to orbiting the south pole. Again, no explanation for how that would happen is given, but it could work in terms of explaining the 24 hour sun which has been observed at both poles. But then you get in to a load of other problems about how that would in any way match other observations of the sun's movement.

All in all the bi-polar creates far more problems than it solves.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 19, 2022, 11:25:19 PM


Actually those odd routes to Europe do make some sense on the Atlantic Split map.


Hundreds of things make no sense whatsoever on that map. Not least the 12 hour flight from Addis to São Paulo that I showed you earlier. You briefly alleged that it wasn’t bookable, but that post seemed to disappear very quickly, so I’m assuming you realised that you can indeed book that flight, and watch it on flight radar.

So would you concede that the existence of that flight means that map simply cannot possibly be correct?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2022, 12:02:39 AM
I don't see any reason to trust those flight radar sites or that the flights exist as claimed.

There is a book which analyzes the flight radar routes (https://www.flatearthresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/covered16emergencylandingsprovingflatearth-191007025918_compressed.pdf) and shows data suggesting that they are false. This book argues for a Flat Earth Monopole model, but the point that the routes may not exist as claimed is pertinent.

From Chapter 17:

Quote
I brought up flight tracking websites in this chapter because the
flight that we will be covering here had an extremely unusual and weird
change of path when it had to make an emergency landing. As it was being
tracked live, viewers took screenshots and posted on a discussion group
whose Mick West, a globe earth advocate, is the admin.

According to FlightRadar24, Hawaiian Airlines flight HA51/HAL51
was flying south of Salt Lake City over Utah when it abruptly changed its
path towards the northwest to make an emergency landing in Seattle. The
flight was being tracked live and the flight path being presented on the
screen was in accord with the globe earth model and Google Maps. Suddenly
the plane made a 90° degrees turn to its right and headed towards Seattle
for an emergency landing. How could that even be possible?

Details of the flight follow: Hawaiian Airlines flight HA51/HAL51
Airbus A330-243, Mode-5 code A479B2, Serial Number 1310, AGE 5 years,
Ground Speed 437 kts, True Airspeed 474 kts, Indicated Airspeed 271 kts,
Mach 0.812 (622 mph), FIR/UIR Salt Lake City, Radar T-KSLC3, Latitude
42.5208, Longitude -114.2024. The date as it happened was on Jun 5th,
2017.

As in Chapter 15 with Hawaiian Airlines flight HA50 making an
emergency landing in the Northwest region of the United States and Chapter
16 where we covered Hawaiian Airlines flight HA37 also making an
emergency landing in Oakland, CA 31 Miles NE of San Francisco in the
Northwest region of the United States, I was no surprised in learning this
plane made an emergency landing in Seattle. Most likely, this airplane
wasn’t even at the place where the tracking software was showing it to be.
Not much can be found about this flight or why it went from south of
Utah to Seattle for an emergency landing. Nevertheless, we still have to
compare the path of this flight as shown on the screenshot with the
Gleason’s Flat Earth Map on the next page and see what conclusion we get:

(https://i.imgur.com/rSRJk87.jpg)

[(https://i.imgur.com/wVUbte2.jpg)

As compared on page 87 Image 03, the flight path of Hawaiian
Airlines flight HA51/HAL51 on the Gleason’s Flat Earth Map is a straight
line from New York JFK to Honolulu HNL in Hawaii having Seattle EXACTLY
along its path. We conclude that this emergency landing in Seattle makes
more sense when we look at the flat earth map and makes no sense at all
when it is looked at on the globe earth model. The path of this flight on the
screenshot showing the plane making an abrupt right turn and heading
northwest towards Seattle leaves a trail of questions: Why didn’t this plane
land in Salt Lake City since it was flying south of Utah? ? How about Las
Vegas? Why didn’t this flight keep going until it reached Los Angeles or
San Diego? What is wrong with San Diego and Los Angeles that these flights
coming from the Northeast towards Hawaii in the Southwest always land in
the Northwest region of the United States? Same thing happens with flights
coming from Hawaii towards the United States end up making emergency
landings in the northwest region of the United States?

Look below the distance between Seattle and Salt Lake City:

(https://i.imgur.com/PtDMkB1.png)

Just a reminder to the reader that, according to the screenshot
Hawaiian Airlines flight HA51/HAL51 was flying at least 200 Miles south of
Salt Lake City.

There are more flights by Hawaiian Airlines making emergency
landings in the northwest region of the United States. As a matter of fact,
there are several! Hawaiian Airlines have been plagued with emergency
landings in the last few years and it has been picked up by the media and
there are a couple of articles written online talking about the struggles that
Hawaiian Airlines has been having with emergency landings lately.
In Illustration 17a we compared the path of Hawaiian Airlines flight
HA51/HAL51 on both, the screenshot from FlighRadar24 as posted on the
discussion forum and on the Gleason’s Flat Earth Map. We will now
compare the flight path of HA51/HAL51 on the globe earth model according
to Google Maps with the Gleason’s Flat Earth Map. Let’s place both flight
paths side by side and see which one makes more sense: The spinning globe
earth model or the flat earth geocentric and stationary model:

(https://i.imgur.com/V1srqIu.jpg)

So no, I don't see any verifiable evidence that these systems are actually providing accurate data.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: ichoosereality on March 20, 2022, 02:28:55 AM
This really shows your confirmation bias Tom.  You accept that the tracking data is correct wrt showing the flight being diverted to Seattle, but not that it is correct about the flight path from NY up to the point of diversion of this, let alone the usual nonstop flight (not going straight over Seattle but taking the globe great circle route to HNL).  Further this was obviously not a critical emergency since for that they would have landed in Salt Lake.  This was a diversion.  For diversions the airport to divert to is up to the airline.  For example losing a generator is not an issue as there are several but starting a long pacific flight down a generator is not advisable.   There could be many reasons why they diverted to Seattle. Maybe the part they needed was there, or maybe they were going to change planes and a replacement plane was in Seattle.  Without knowing the details its impossible to say but there is nothing in this that casts doubt on the tracking data, unless you have come to that conclusion first.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: scomato on March 20, 2022, 03:00:30 AM
So the Bipolar model at least acknowledges the existence of the Antarctic continent, I hope that puts to rest some of the sad arguments such as Amundsen-Scott base being fake.

But if Antarctica is a continent and not the ice wall, does the Bipolar model flat earth still have an ice wall perimeter?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2022, 03:03:40 AM
This really shows your confirmation bias Tom.  You accept that the tracking data is correct wrt showing the flight being diverted to Seattle, but not that it is correct about the flight path from NY up to the point of diversion of this, let alone the usual nonstop flight (not going straight over Seattle but taking the globe great circle route to HNL).  Further this was obviously not a critical emergency since for that they would have landed in Salt Lake.  This was a diversion.  For diversions the airport to divert to is up to the airline.  For example losing a generator is not an issue as there are several but starting a long pacific flight down a generator is not advisable.   There could be many reasons why they diverted to Seattle. Maybe the part they needed was there, or maybe they were going to change planes and a replacement plane was in Seattle.  Without knowing the details its impossible to say but there is nothing in this that casts doubt on the tracking data, unless you have come to that conclusion first.

Sure, you can speculate on lots of different explanations on what happened, but it remains an anomaly which happens to agree with the North Azimuthal projection. There are a lot of examples like that in the book. At some point it's a coincidence too many. The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

So the Bipolar model at least acknowledges the existence of the Antarctic continent, I hope that puts to rest some of the sad arguments such as Amundsen-Scott base being fake.

But if Antarctica is a continent and not the ice wall, does the Bipolar model flat earth still have an ice wall perimeter?

Presumably beyond the light of the Sun the water would naturally freeze.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 20, 2022, 04:57:08 AM
The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

In Chapter 2 of that guy's book you presented, he talks about the Taiwan to LAX flight. Somone was about to give birth when they were near Hawaii and they diverted to Alaska.

How does the bi-polar model account for the emergency diversion to Alaska?

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Altmap.png/250px-Altmap.png)

How would the anomaly work on the bi-polar model? As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: ichoosereality on March 20, 2022, 05:18:48 AM
Sure, you can speculate on lots of different explanations on what happened, but it remains an anomaly which happens to agree with the North Azimuthal projection.
How does it agree?  It does not show the path going direct from NYC to Seattle and most such flights show the expected great circle route as does the first part of the one you show.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 20, 2022, 06:08:27 AM
I don't see any reason to trust those flight radar sites or that the flights exist as claimed.

[quote removed for brevity]

So no, I don't see any verifiable evidence that these systems are actually providing accurate data.

Wow.

So what are you suggesting is happening on FR24 then? Do you, like the author of that book, subscribe to the view that NASA are somehow providing the data to FR24, and that they distort everything to make it look like aircraft are flying great when they are, in fact, flying over some version of FE?

Do have any idea how utterly preposterous that sounds? I note you edited out his NASA conspiracy bit…is that because it doesn’t align with your wiki claim that there is no FE/RE conspiracy, just a space travel one? Or do you actually agree it’s a NASA thing?

So many things…what do you suppose happens on that Ethiopian flight then? Does it take roughly 12 hours to cross over to Sao Paulo?

Do you even understand how FR24 works? It is based on the ADS-B signal from aircraft, which carries unencrypted navigation data along with other information. The critical point to hoist aboard is it is fairly short range - 100 miles or so, depending on altitude. To get a global picture FR24 relies on lots of ground stations. The really cool thing is that you can become one yourself - this website explains it pretty well: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/tracking-airplanes-how-flightradar24-works/8389/amp/ (https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/tracking-airplanes-how-flightradar24-works/8389/amp/)

The really important bit to note is that one of the main reasons for the system is to provide position information to ATC and other aircraft for safety purposes. If the data was wildly out, as you are suggesting, it would be extremely dangerous, as well as being very obvious to anybody flying an aircraft.

You are taking the word of a single person who draws NASA as a puppeteer controlling the flight information websites, but are rejecting a wealth of entirely consistent data from a global industry. Why?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 20, 2022, 08:54:33 AM
That ‘book’ on ‘16 Emergency Landings’ is written by someone who has no working knowledge of flight planning, nor of handling in-flight emergencies and the practical, political and financial decisions made during them.

When I have time I’ll go through it and explain why things most likely happened as they did.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: scomato on March 20, 2022, 03:41:05 PM

Presumably beyond the light of the Sun the water would naturally freeze.

Do you have any evidence for this new ice wall? At least the old Antarctic ice wall had photos of the Ross Ice Shelf as an attempt at proof.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 20, 2022, 04:07:46 PM
Just for the record, the guy who wrote the "16 Emergency Landings..." PDF that's been presented is Eddie Alencar. He has an FE channel on YT:

(https://i.imgur.com/65t8P0M.png)

He is a Wedding Photographer:

(https://i.imgur.com/UKtRuVf.jpg)

That's right, our expert presented here regarding all things on how airline emergency procedures, routes, etc., work or should work, in his mind, is a Wedding Photography. Solid commercial aeronautic credentials, no doubt.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2022, 04:22:31 PM
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2022, 04:38:18 PM
The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

In Chapter 2 of that guy's book you presented, he talks about the Taiwan to LAX flight. Somone was about to give birth when they were near Hawaii and they diverted to Alaska.

How does the bi-polar model account for the emergency diversion to Alaska?

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Altmap.png/250px-Altmap.png)

How would the anomaly work on the bi-polar model? As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

Did you bother to look where those locations are on that map? Even in that map it makes much more sense to land somewhere in the Arctic Circle than in Hawaii.

Do have any idea how utterly preposterous that sounds?

Argument by incredulity. That works.  ::)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 20, 2022, 04:53:42 PM
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)

One may not need aeronautics credentials, but a wedding photographer.  ::)

Seems like you have a thing for actual experts when it comes some things, but not others:

Well it's not possible to get those correlations; and Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.

Maybe you should post some counter-opinions from random unqualified people on the internet like stack, rama set, and aatw are assuredly trying to find. It's totally convincing to cite high school flunkies on mathematical questions.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 20, 2022, 04:56:09 PM
The Bi-Polar models share many of the same features in their Northern Hemiplanes as the standard Flat Earth North Azimuthal Monopole model, and many of the same anomalies listed would work in their favor.

In Chapter 2 of that guy's book you presented, he talks about the Taiwan to LAX flight. Somone was about to give birth when they were near Hawaii and they diverted to Alaska.

How does the bi-polar model account for the emergency diversion to Alaska?

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Altmap.png/250px-Altmap.png)

How would the anomaly work on the bi-polar model? As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?

Did you bother to look where those locations are on that map? Even in that map it makes much more sense to land somewhere in the Arctic Circle than in Hawaii.

You missed a question:

As well, perhaps more importantly, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 21, 2022, 05:53:07 AM
Interestingly, because of the Ukraine/Russia conflict, airlines are having to make massive route adjustments and even employ ETOPS ("Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards") in some cases because some go way up and over and near the north pole:

Polar express: How airlines are plotting a new route to Asia (https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/north-pole-air-route)

(https://i.imgur.com/zmum8Wt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3nGu4OX.jpg)

Finnair is giving put N.Pole crossing "certificates"...

(https://i.imgur.com/jBhnU8F.png)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 21, 2022, 10:42:31 AM
I don't see any reason to trust those flight radar sites or that the flights exist as claimed.

There is a book which analyzes the flight radar routes (https://www.flatearthresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/covered16emergencylandingsprovingflatearth-191007025918_compressed.pdf) and shows data suggesting that they are false. This book argues for a Flat Earth Monopole model, but the point that the routes may not exist as claimed is pertinent.

As a wise man once said:

Wiki articles have been debunked numerous times, but the level of evidence you require to accept that is impossible to meet. But evidence which you think backs up a FE you accept fairly unquestioningly.

Case in point. What have you done to look in to this? I had a quick look at that "book" and it was laughable. Chapter 7 caught my eye. It says:

Quote
On November 20, 2016 Emirates flight EK225 had to make an emergency landing due to the fact that someone fell sick during the flight. Russian news agency TASS reported in its website that, “The plane landed at Moscow’s Domodedovo at 16:33 Moscow time as a 70-year-old passenger, an Indian national, felt sick. She will be taken to hospital," the source said”.

It goes on to say:

Quote
I examined this flight in my video “Six Emergency Landings that prove the earth is Flat” where I drew lines on a globe to demonstrate flight paths going both ways, on an Eastern direction
and on a Western direction. Image 01 on the next page will present to the reader the route of this flight on a globe going on an easterly direction crossing the United States as it descends Latitude lines crossing the Atlantic Ocean on to fly over Portugal and Spain. As shown on Google Maps, EK225 keeps on flying over the Mediterranean Sea and then over Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia until it reaches Dubai.

But that is NOT the flight path that this route takes. It's trivial to find this out. The actual flight path goes north of Greenland:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE225
https://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/sfo-to-dxb/
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Emirates-flight-from-SFO-to-DXB-fly-over-off-Greenland-and-North-Pole-then-lands-in-Dubai

If you find the distance between the two cities on Google Maps, that's exactly the path you get:

(https://i.ibb.co/jyZ75JY/SFO-DXBPath.jpg)

Oh, and look where Moscow is - I've put a pin there. Seems like a pretty reasonable place to divert to. Did you bother to look in to any of this or did you just accept it because it confirms your agenda?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 21, 2022, 12:46:59 PM
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)

Correct, and even an Air Transport Pilot's Licence holder can probably point and shoot at a wedding, so I guess we are agreed that no one needs any particular skill to do anything.  (Thank God for the internet). 

Of course, in addition to a rudimentary knowledge of geometry, it would probably be an advantage to know which 3 dots have to be connected, what areas need to be avoided, and what other dots are available if one of the original dots gets deleted.   
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 21, 2022, 01:06:30 PM
There have been a few claims in this thread regarding flight tracking/ADS-B and in-flight diversions. Thought I’d collect some thoughts.

First, a short intro.

I’ve been an air traffic controller at London Heathrow for 23 years, In the last 14 years I’ve been working in our Operations department. As part of that I’ve worked on developing and introducing operational ATC ADS-B systems (including comparing accuracy to ATC radar data), analysed and worked with commercial flight trackers (one of my duties is to help respond to noise complaints and queries from local residents using FR24 etc)

A few notes on Flight trackers.

FR24 and other commercial trackers use various methods of determining position.

ADS-B – this is where the aircraft is effectively continually broadcasting a message, and part of that message is its own location.
    - Note that in some cases, particularly older aircraft, this ‘own location’ may not be derived from GNSS signals, and may even be determined by what we call DME/DME triangulation (DME – Distance Measuring Equipment – a ground-based radio beacon, often co-located with a VOR navigation aid).
    - You only need one antenna/receiver to pick up these signals and plot locations. You can buy these for less than $100 and FR24 and others will send you one for free if you then connect up and feed their network.
    - Some flight trackers have a commercial agreement with satellite-based ADS-B providers that feed ATC systems for over the ocean flying, away from ground-based ATC radar cover.

Some aircraft aren’t fitted with ADS-B, or can turn ADS-B broadcasts off. In this case, the aircraft’s transponder (sometimes called SSR – Secondary Surveillance Radar) will be used. This is the aircraft sending out signals in response to a pulse from a ground-based ATC radar. This response from the transponder does not include the aircraft’s position, but ATC radar will merge the information received with the Primary radar (energy being reflected back from the aircraft received at the same time as the transponder response) to provide location on ATC radar screens. Flight tracking apps (with one exception – I’ll come to later) don’t have access to this, so they use a multilateration system. Mode S transponder receivers again are pretty cheap to buy (or provided free as above), and FR24 et al use triangulation to provide position data on non-ADS-B aircraft.

The exception that I know if is an iPad-only app called ‘NATS Airspace Explorer’ which is a flight tracking app provided by NATS, the main ATC provider in the UK. It takes a feed from the actual ATC radar system (anywhere in UK airspace above about 1000ft apart from over mountains) rather than ADS-B. It’s what controllers are seeing on their screen in real time.

There are some aircraft that won’t show up on FR24 et al even if they are broadcasting ADS-B. Aircraft owners can apply to be on a list of suppressed aircraft, this is mainly done for commercial or security/govt. sensitivity reasons.

However, the website-based tracker ADSBExchange.com does not use any filtering. It’s a crowdsourced organization and those suppressed aircraft will show up if they are using ADS-B.

Accuracy of ADS-B.

As I said earlier, ADS-B information is now being used operationally in many countries, especially in the USA. I think now around 150 US airports use ADS-B info overlaid on their radar screens, and, as the ONLY source of position information over the world’s oceans out of ATC radar cover. Bearing in mind that you or I could buy an ADS-B receiver to feed flight trackers I’m not sure on what basis any government organisation could ‘interfere’ with that data

In-flight diversions

There was a comment earlier on the thread:
“Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.”

In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 21, 2022, 02:10:48 PM
Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!
What do you mean to communicate here:

"Bearing in mind that you or I could buy an ADS-B receiver to feed flight trackers I’m not sure on what basis any government organisation could ‘interfere’ with that data"
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 21, 2022, 02:28:21 PM
Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!
What do you mean to communicate here:

"Bearing in mind that you or I could buy an ADS-B receiver to feed flight trackers I’m not sure on what basis any government organisation could ‘interfere’ with that data"

I apologise, I thought it was pretty clear.

ADS-B receivers are abvailable to purchase, or receive free of charge in association with one of the many flight tracker wensites out there.

If you are really paranoid, you can plug them into your computer to build your own flight tracker (with limited horizon of around 100-150 miles). you receive the aircraft's transmissions and that shows you on your computer the location of the aircraft. You don't even need an internet connection. What opportunity are you seeing for anyone to interfere with the data in this case?

A large part of my job is verifying ADS-B data for accuracy (we compare it to ATC radar data to safety assure its use to provide separation between aircraft). If there were major issues with ADS-B accuracy it wouldn't be used.

(edit to remove an errant apostrophe)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 21, 2022, 04:48:20 PM
Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!
What do you mean to communicate here:

"Bearing in mind that you or I could buy an ADS-B receiver to feed flight trackers I’m not sure on what basis any government organisation could ‘interfere’ with that data"

I apologise, I thought it was pretty clear.

ADS-B receivers are abvailable to purchase, or receive free of charge in association with one of the many flight tracker wensites out there.

If you are really paranoid, you can plug them into your computer to build your own flight tracker (with limited horizon of around 100-150 miles). you receive the aircraft's transmissions and that shows you on your computer the location of the aircraft. You don't even need an internet connection. What opportunity are you seeing for anyone to interfere with the data in this case?

A large part of my job is verifying ADS-B data for accuracy (we compare it to ATC radar data to safety assure it's use to provide separation between aircraft). If there were major issues with ADS-B accuracy it wouldn't be used.
Which can be easily done with a £20 SDR receiver and some bent bits of wire for an aerial.  And some open source software.

The accuracy of ADS-B can be seen by comparing eg. FR24 with real time departure and arrival boards for airports.  Also by just seeing aircraft flying over and looking at eg. FR24 or a home based receiver to compare.

Those who doubt the accuracy of ADS data and flight routes should provide some evidence.  There is only one accepted model of the Earth - WGS84. 
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 24, 2022, 10:17:14 AM
Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!
What do you mean to communicate here:

"Bearing in mind that you or I could buy an ADS-B receiver to feed flight trackers I’m not sure on what basis any government organisation could ‘interfere’ with that data"

I apologise, I thought it was pretty clear.

ADS-B receivers are abvailable to purchase, or receive free of charge in association with one of the many flight tracker wensites out there.

If you are really paranoid, you can plug them into your computer to build your own flight tracker (with limited horizon of around 100-150 miles). you receive the aircraft's transmissions and that shows you on your computer the location of the aircraft. You don't even need an internet connection. What opportunity are you seeing for anyone to interfere with the data in this case?

A large part of my job is verifying ADS-B data for accuracy (we compare it to ATC radar data to safety assure its use to provide separation between aircraft). If there were major issues with ADS-B accuracy it wouldn't be used.

(edit to remove an errant apostrophe)
So, the fact I can buy my own equipment means "the gubment," cannot or would not interfere with its operation?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 24, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
So, the fact I can buy my own equipment means "the gubment," cannot or would not interfere with its operation?
If anybody tried to interfere with ADS-B out signals, it would be abundantly obvious that they had done so.

At the professional level, any air or ground system that tracks aircraft would immediately spot the mismatch between radar and ADS signals.

For amateurs, if you’re watching traffic at your local airfield, for example, and it’s not where it says on your screen, then again, it would be very obvious there’s a problem.

Furthermore, it would be enormously difficult, if not impossible, to fake the flight path of a real aircraft. If you tinker with the actual aircraft, then ATC would spot the mismatch straight away. Moreover, the aircraft would be deviating from its filed flight plan, which is a major problem. If you didn’t do that, and just tried to broadcast the fake signal to ground stations, then you’d have to make sure you successfully jammed all of the receiving ground stations, whilst all the time making sure the footprint of the broadcast matched the rough broadcast range of the actual aircraft.

And you’d have to do that all the time, for every flight whose ‘true’ flight path you wished to mask. That’s a monumental task. You’d need an army of people to do that, none of whom would be allowed to talk about it.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 24, 2022, 12:42:33 PM
Correct.

It's literally part of my job to verify ADS-B data, and investigate mismatches between that and ATC radar-derived position data.

We rely on ADS-B data over the ocean to ensure aircraft maintain the required separation. There would be TCAS alerts going off all over the place if aircraft weren't where their ADS-B position claimed them to be on the scale you suggest.

And again, you can buy your own receiver and verify this yourself. Get a friend to do the same and you could even triangulate the broadcasts yourself to provide another level of verification. Can you explain how you think a government could interfere with this.

Action80, many airlines and engine manufacturers track their own aircraft/engines as they fly, often through technologies other than ADS-B. Do you think they have the correct position or is that being interfered with too? Do you think flight crews know their true position? I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here. What makes you think this interference going on? Genuine question.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 24, 2022, 02:53:40 PM
So, the fact I can buy my own equipment means "the gubment," cannot or would not interfere with its operation?
If anybody tried to interfere with ADS-B out signals, it would be abundantly obvious that they had done so.

At the professional level, any air or ground system that tracks aircraft would immediately spot the mismatch between radar and ADS signals.

For amateurs, if you’re watching traffic at your local airfield, for example, and it’s not where it says on your screen, then again, it would be very obvious there’s a problem.

Furthermore, it would be enormously difficult, if not impossible, to fake the flight path of a real aircraft. If you tinker with the actual aircraft, then ATC would spot the mismatch straight away. Moreover, the aircraft would be deviating from its filed flight plan, which is a major problem. If you didn’t do that, and just tried to broadcast the fake signal to ground stations, then you’d have to make sure you successfully jammed all of the receiving ground stations, whilst all the time making sure the footprint of the broadcast matched the rough broadcast range of the actual aircraft.

And you’d have to do that all the time, for every flight whose ‘true’ flight path you wished to mask. That’s a monumental task. You’d need an army of people to do that, none of whom would be allowed to talk about it.
Oh, yes, I am sure all the statements you make are absolutely necessary to support the concept, but other than you typing them out feverishly here on this forum in your daily, for pay capacity, what evidence do you have that it would be a "monumental task, requiring an army..."

None.

You are blowing smoke.

Gubment interferes with all kinds of data, all the goddamn time.

I have no idea who you're trying to zoom with this pablum you are typing out, but it ain't working.

They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 24, 2022, 02:55:16 PM
Correct.

It's literally part of my job to verify ADS-B data, and investigate mismatches between that and ATC radar-derived position data.

We rely on ADS-B data over the ocean to ensure aircraft maintain the required separation. There would be TCAS alerts going off all over the place if aircraft weren't where their ADS-B position claimed them to be on the scale you suggest.

And again, you can buy your own receiver and verify this yourself. Get a friend to do the same and you could even triangulate the broadcasts yourself to provide another level of verification. Can you explain how you think a government could interfere with this.

Action80, many airlines and engine manufacturers track their own aircraft/engines as they fly, often through technologies other than ADS-B. Do you think they have the correct position or is that being interfered with too? Do you think flight crews know their true position? I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here. What makes you think this interference going on? Genuine question.
I am not making a claim interference is going on.

You made the claim interference could not go on.

I say that claim is ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 24, 2022, 04:03:39 PM
Buy your own equipment, or get it for free, and verify ADS-B for yourself. Anyone can do it. Simple.

Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 24, 2022, 05:36:49 PM
Oh, yes, I am sure all the statements you make are absolutely necessary to support the concept, but other than you typing them out feverishly here on this forum in your daily, for pay capacity, what evidence do you have that it would be a "monumental task, requiring an army..."

None.

You are blowing smoke.

Gubment interferes with all kinds of data, all the goddamn time.

I have no idea who you're trying to zoom with this pablum you are typing out, but it ain't working.

They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.

I'm deeply flattered that you're accusing me of being a shill.

I'm not 100% clear what you mean by your last sentence there, but I think you're saying that, because there isn't complete data for oversea flights, the government is therefore capable of faking all the flights? Is that right? Because it makes no sense whatsoever. There's a very good reason why there isn't global coverage for FR24, and it's because the data goes direct from the aircraft to the ground stations, and hence has a limited range (I'll let you ponder why that may be...hint: it depends on the altitude of the aircraft), so if there aren't any ground stations, you won't get coverage. You can try to bake that into your conspiracy all you like, but it's an easily verifiable fact. Just buy your own gear and have a play. It's super simple - just a TV aerial and a usb stick, and you can just watch the raw data if you're really keen, or run it through some software, like FR24's, and watch it all on a map.

You've asked 'what evidence' for the number of people required to do the fakery. Well, I don't think 'evidence' is the right word, as I'm being asked to prove something that isn't happening, but I can certainly expand a bit on the reason, if you are indeed genuinely interested. It comes down to how much effort is required really. Lets' see:

- first up, let's make some assumptions. So the world is flat, and for reasons unknown, all the governments of the world are conspiring to suppress the information, and one way of doing that is to pretend that, instead of the direct FE route for all passenger flights, aircraft are actually following a RE track, based on the fake RE model of the planet. It would help enormously if you could tell me which FE map you're going for, and how far it is between the various continents, cities etc. No need to do all of them, of course. Just some examples, like the Addis - Sao Paulo route we were discussing earlier with Tom, who seems to have gone very quiet on the subject.

- now we need a mechanism. We've got to somehow simultaneously broadcast the wrong location for all of our aircraft on the ADS-B frequency, whilst at the same time making sure they don't hit each other...I guess we transmit a real and a fake signal? So we have to get all the avionics designers to build in a FE map and a RE map and make sure they transmit both. So all the avionics people are in on it...and what do we do about the pilots? Are they in on it too? Because if we're gonna fake it, we either need to bring them in on the scam or somehow convince them that all their great circle training (a key part of the ATPL exam) is actually real...but what happens if they look ou the front of the cockpit and see that they're flying over Seattle when they should be over LA according to RE? Best we bring them in on the conspiracy. All of them.

- or do we somehow broadcast some satellite (are we allowed those? I do see them wizzing by in the night sky, or are those just projections?) signal down that fakes the position of all the aircraft, at the right time, and with the right simulated range based on their altitude? So we'll need a team of people to monitor all the flights, globally, and make sure their planned and real positions are faked, in real time, just perfectly to align with our nefarious RE model. And every time a flight diverts, anywhere on the planet, we'll need to update the system quickly to make sure the mask doesn't slip. We'd have got away with too, if it wasn't for that pesky author and his book that this bloke quoted on some wiki.

- that would still give us a problem with the pilots, though, wouldn't it? Because they're all planning and flying great circles. So they must be in on it. Or not looking out the window.

Or you tell me? How would it all work? Who would be in on the conspiracy?


Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 24, 2022, 06:15:31 PM
Oh, yes, I am sure all the statements you make are absolutely necessary to support the concept, but other than you typing them out feverishly here on this forum in your daily, for pay capacity, what evidence do you have that it would be a "monumental task, requiring an army..."

None.

You are blowing smoke.

Gubment interferes with all kinds of data, all the goddamn time.

I have no idea who you're trying to zoom with this pablum you are typing out, but it ain't working.

They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.

I'm deeply flattered that you're accusing me of being a shill.

I'm not 100% clear what you mean by your last sentence there, but I think you're saying that, because there isn't complete data for oversea flights, the government is therefore capable of faking all the flights? Is that right? Because it makes no sense whatsoever. There's a very good reason why there isn't global coverage for FR24, and it's because the data goes direct from the aircraft to the ground stations, and hence has a limited range (I'll let you ponder why that may be...hint: it depends on the altitude of the aircraft), so if there aren't any ground stations, you won't get coverage. You can try to bake that into your conspiracy all you like, but it's an easily verifiable fact. Just buy your own gear and have a play. It's super simple - just a TV aerial and a usb stick, and you can just watch the raw data if you're really keen, or run it through some software, like FR24's, and watch it all on a map.
So, I am correct here.

You've asked 'what evidence' for the number of people required to do the fakery. Well, I don't think 'evidence' is the right word, as I'm being asked to prove something that isn't happening...
Look buddy, forgetting the rest of your smoke, as that is all it is...

You made a claim.

As a reminder, you stated words, "It would be a monumental task, requiring an army..."

I am asking you for evidence to support that claim.

Either you have it or you don't.

Relatively easy to say "Here you go," or "Yeah, I got busted on that one."
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 24, 2022, 06:52:17 PM


I'm deeply flattered that you're accusing me of being a shill.

I'm not 100% clear what you mean by your last sentence there, but I think you're saying that, because there isn't complete data for oversea flights, the government is therefore capable of faking all the flights? Is that right? Because it makes no sense whatsoever. There's a very good reason why there isn't global coverage for FR24, and it's because the data goes direct from the aircraft to the ground stations, and hence has a limited range (I'll let you ponder why that may be...hint: it depends on the altitude of the aircraft), so if there aren't any ground stations, you won't get coverage. You can try to bake that into your conspiracy all you like, but it's an easily verifiable fact. Just buy your own gear and have a play. It's super simple - just a TV aerial and a usb stick, and you can just watch the raw data if you're really keen, or run it through some software, like FR24's, and watch it all on a map.
So, I am correct here.

No, you are not. You haven't made any sense at all, and you've misunderstood or are ignoring everything I said. Are you going to try and engage on the ground coverage issue? Or just hurl shill insults around?

You've asked 'what evidence' for the number of people required to do the fakery. Well, I don't think 'evidence' is the right word, as I'm being asked to prove something that isn't happening...
Look buddy, forgetting the rest of your smoke, as that is all it is...

You made a claim.

As a reminder, you stated words, "It would be a monumental task, requiring an army..."

I am asking you for evidence to support that claim.

Either you have it or you don't.

Relatively easy to say "Here you go," or "Yeah, I got busted on that one."


Again, I explained myself clearly, and you've completely ignored it. You can't 'evidence' a hypothetical. It's perfectly reasonable for you ask for justification, and I've done just that - I provided a reason for my statement, which you've culled off your quote of my comment and failed to engage with, presumably because you either don't understand it, or don't have the metal capacity to coherently engage with it.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 24, 2022, 08:33:50 PM
The position data transmitted by ADS-B is the location received by a global navigation satellite system (GNSS) receiver on the aircraft.  We know that GNSS is accurate and repeatable. 

There are 4 systems in operation from Russia, Japan, Europe and the US and no reason to doubt them.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 25, 2022, 08:49:43 AM
You've asked 'what evidence' for the number of people required to do the fakery. Well, I don't think 'evidence' is the right word, as I'm being asked to prove something that isn't happening...
Look buddy, forgetting the rest of your smoke, as that is all it is...

You made a claim.

As a reminder, you stated words, "It would be a monumental task, requiring an army..."

I am asking you for evidence to support that claim.

Either you have it or you don't.

Relatively easy to say "Here you go," or "Yeah, I got busted on that one."

Here you go:

(https://i.imgur.com/zEi67kd.png)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 25, 2022, 11:34:52 AM


I'm deeply flattered that you're accusing me of being a shill.

I'm not 100% clear what you mean by your last sentence there, but I think you're saying that, because there isn't complete data for oversea flights, the government is therefore capable of faking all the flights? Is that right? Because it makes no sense whatsoever. There's a very good reason why there isn't global coverage for FR24, and it's because the data goes direct from the aircraft to the ground stations, and hence has a limited range (I'll let you ponder why that may be...hint: it depends on the altitude of the aircraft), so if there aren't any ground stations, you won't get coverage. You can try to bake that into your conspiracy all you like, but it's an easily verifiable fact. Just buy your own gear and have a play. It's super simple - just a TV aerial and a usb stick, and you can just watch the raw data if you're really keen, or run it through some software, like FR24's, and watch it all on a map.
So, I am correct here.

No, you are not. You haven't made any sense at all, and you've misunderstood or are ignoring everything I said. Are you going to try and engage on the ground coverage issue? Or just hurl shill insults around?
Yeah, I am correct.

In this case, there's no such data to begin with.
You've asked 'what evidence' for the number of people required to do the fakery. Well, I don't think 'evidence' is the right word, as I'm being asked to prove something that isn't happening...
Look buddy, forgetting the rest of your smoke, as that is all it is...

You made a claim.

As a reminder, you stated words, "It would be a monumental task, requiring an army..."

I am asking you for evidence to support that claim.

Either you have it or you don't.

Relatively easy to say "Here you go," or "Yeah, I got busted on that one."
Again, I explained myself clearly, and you've completely ignored it. You can't 'evidence' a hypothetical. It's perfectly reasonable for you ask for justification, and I've done just that - I provided a reason for my statement, which you've culled off your quote of my comment and failed to engage with, presumably because you either don't understand it, or don't have the metal capacity to coherently engage with it.
If you are not going to justify your claim, other than with, "Listen, buddy, I'm an expert, and experts are welcomed here on a flat earth forum, so pay attention to what I write!", I think the discussion is rather useless. You are no expert in this discussion at all or anything else for that matter.

You have no evidence whatsoever to justify your claim that it would be a "MONUMENTAL TASK, REQUIRING AN ARMY!!!" for a government to tamper with flight recording data.

But even if it would be a monumental task or did require an army, existing armies are primarily in the service of...wait for it...government and do accomplish quite a lot of monumental things.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 25, 2022, 11:42:41 AM

In this case, there's no such data to begin with.


Can you explain what you mean here, please? What data are you saying doesn't exist?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 25, 2022, 11:58:04 AM

In this case, there's no such data to begin with.


Can you explain what you mean here, please? What data are you saying doesn't exist?
Read Steely Bob's post.

He says there is no data.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 25, 2022, 12:05:24 PM
Does it stem from this?

Quote
They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 25, 2022, 02:10:32 PM
Does it stem from this?

Quote
They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.
Which was confirmed by SteelyBob.

No real-time data.

Which means there are no real-time flights taking place at the time where real-time data is not posted.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 25, 2022, 02:21:06 PM
Read this:

https://www.icao.int/NACC/Documents/Meetings/2013/ANIWG01/ANIWG01P04.pdf (https://www.icao.int/NACC/Documents/Meetings/2013/ANIWG01/ANIWG01P04.pdf)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 25, 2022, 02:25:31 PM
Does it stem from this?

Quote
They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.
Which was confirmed by SteelyBob.

No real-time data.

Which means there are no real-time flights taking place at the time where real-time data is not posted.
However:

Aireon LLC is a joint venture between NAV CANADA and Iridium to finance, develop, deploy and operate a global solution for tracking and monitoring aircraft anywhere in the world by using spacebased ADS-B receivers
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 25, 2022, 03:41:23 PM
Quite.

The fact that FR24 doesn't present ADS-B location data there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means they've made a commercial decision not to pay for it.

I see the data as part of my job, certainly from flights over the N. Atlantic.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 25, 2022, 04:15:41 PM
Quite.

The fact that FR24 doesn't present ADS-B location data there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means they've made a commercial decision not to pay for it.

I see the data as part of my job, certainly from flights over the N. Atlantic.
Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: SteelyBob on March 25, 2022, 06:43:54 PM
Quite.

The fact that FR24 doesn't present ADS-B location data there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means they've made a commercial decision not to pay for it.

I see the data as part of my job, certainly from flights over the N. Atlantic.
Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.

Do you know what a transponder is?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 25, 2022, 08:02:23 PM
Quite.

The fact that FR24 doesn't present ADS-B location data there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means they've made a commercial decision not to pay for it.

I see the data as part of my job, certainly from flights over the N. Atlantic.
Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.
How does GPS work in a flat earth model and received by aircraft far from land?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 25, 2022, 09:38:07 PM
Do you know what a transponder is?
Yes.
How does GPS work in a flat earth model and received by aircraft far from land?
It may not be present at all, as no significant changes to routes commonly used for hundreds of years have occurred.

LORAN routes are still in use, for instance.

There are certainly satellites at high altitudes overhead, but they are not really necessary for terrestrial navigation.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 25, 2022, 10:31:19 PM

Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.

Can you explain how you think ground-based transponders would interfere with or plot false tracks of aircraft over the ocean? Where's the evidence for them performing the same functions (same functions as what? Transponders in aircraft?

Oh no, I have access to global data, perhaps I wasn't clear. It's just not my direct job. I've been working with ADS-B for over ten years. I actually represent my country on European and global working groups on the subject. A group of us was discussing ADS-B accuracy in the SE Pacific only last week on an MS Teams call.

It's so tempting to sit in ignorance and say 'I don't know, therefore I can claim it's all made up/fake/government interference', isn't it?

As for 'some internet jockey', yeah not really. My name is Adam Spink, you can find me pretty easily on Twitter or Instagram. You know where I work. I've even written a few blog posts for my employer at NATS.aero/blog. I use the same forum username on the Professional Pilot Rumour Network (mainly sticking the the ATC Issues forum) where you'll find my posts, and the Flyer Magazine General Aviation forum, where my username is GonzoEGLL. Nice to meet you.

Quote
No significant changes to routes commonly used for hundreds of years have occurred

Sorry, you'll definitely have to expand on this one.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 26, 2022, 01:18:15 AM
LORAN routes are still in use, for instance.

Funny, Loran routes utilize great circle navigation...

By the mid-1960s, units with some transistorization were becoming more common, and a chain was set up in Vietnam to support the United States' war efforts there. A number of commercial airline operators experimented with the system as well, using it for navigation on the great circle route between North America and Europe. However, inertial platforms ultimately became more common in this role.[27]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Iceman on March 26, 2022, 01:19:48 AM
no significant changes to routes commonly used for hundreds of years have occurred.

In a discussion about air travel, you’re talking about routes used for hundreds of years?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 26, 2022, 11:51:36 AM
In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 26, 2022, 12:08:07 PM
In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Please provide a link to an/the agreed Flat Earth Azimuthal map to discuss.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 26, 2022, 12:42:14 PM
In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman. 

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map. 
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 26, 2022, 12:54:48 PM
You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman. 

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map.

None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 26, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman. 

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map.

None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Please provide a link to a agreed Flat Earth Azimuthal map so we can check.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Iceman on March 26, 2022, 02:06:09 PM
Ah yes, the ol’ I don’t believe in the globe because a few things line up with this map which I also don’t believe in argument.

The best defense of the bi-polar model is…the monopole map?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 26, 2022, 04:17:50 PM
In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

No Tom.

I posted a non-exhaustive list of factors considered when choosing where to divert.

That ‘book’ claims that because a flight diverted to airport A instead of airport B, when it clearly (in the author’ mind) should have gone to airport B, that this is evidence of flat earth. No. It’s merely evidence that the flight diverted to airport A.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 26, 2022, 04:58:12 PM

Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.

Can you explain how you think ground-based transponders would interfere with or plot false tracks of aircraft over the ocean?
I never said transponders are interfering with or plotting false tracking for aircraft. I'm not even going to entertain your obvious troll.

I don't care what your name is, I don't care where you are from, and I don't believe a single word you typed here on this thread.

I'm done responding to you.

Sorry, you'll definitely have to expand on this one.
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Action80 on March 26, 2022, 05:01:34 PM
LORAN routes are still in use, for instance.

Funny, Loran routes utilize great circle navigation...

By the mid-1960s, units with some transistorization were becoming more common, and a chain was set up in Vietnam to support the United States' war efforts there. A number of commercial airline operators experimented with the system as well, using it for navigation on the great circle route between North America and Europe. However, inertial platforms ultimately became more common in this role.[27]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C
Funny, no they don't. They can write anything they want to support the narrative.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 26, 2022, 06:17:33 PM

Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.

Can you explain how you think ground-based transponders would interfere with or plot false tracks of aircraft over the ocean?
I never said transponders are interfering with or plotting false tracking for aircraft. I'm not even going to entertain your obvious troll.

I don't care what your name is, I don't care where you are from, and I don't believe a single word you typed here on this thread.

I'm done responding to you.

Sorry, you'll definitely have to expand on this one.


Ok, I must be mistaken then. In your view, what are these ground based transponders doing?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 26, 2022, 06:43:23 PM
]None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Well, for a start that map doesn’t begin to represent known distances between places, so you need to explain how ships and airplanes get around so accurately without knowing how far they’re going. And secondly your basis for this assertion is a “book”, which has simply incorrect claims in it. I analysed one of the chapters in some detail earlier in this thread, here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19222.msg261564#msg261564

And you simply ignored it. It took me 5 minutes to find out his claim about the flight route was incorrect. If you look at the actual route the diversion makes sense. You can cherry pick some examples where the diversion looks like it could also make sense on an AE map, but since that’s a map you don’t accept…so what?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 26, 2022, 07:46:12 PM
LORAN routes are still in use, for instance.

Funny, Loran routes utilize great circle navigation...

By the mid-1960s, units with some transistorization were becoming more common, and a chain was set up in Vietnam to support the United States' war efforts there. A number of commercial airline operators experimented with the system as well, using it for navigation on the great circle route between North America and Europe. However, inertial platforms ultimately became more common in this role.[27]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C
Funny, no they don't. They can write anything they want to support the narrative.

Who is "they"?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 26, 2022, 08:00:29 PM
You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman. 

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map.

None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

"In September 2015, only 0.15 percent of 464,946 scheduled flights were diverted (https://www.bustle.com/articles/124628-are-planes-diverted-often-the-air-france-flights-werent-the-only-ones-rerouted), which equates to about 698 flights."

- Your wedding photographer presents 16 diverted flights over the course of 30+ years out of maybe, highly approximated, 252,000 diversions.
- The AE map is a globe projection
- Your wedding photographer believes airline tracking is fake, yet somehow thinks he can track flights on his own
- What does any of this have to do with the Bi-polar model/map?
- What's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX on the bi-polar model?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 26, 2022, 08:37:13 PM
]None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Well, for a start that map doesn’t begin to represent known distances between places, so you need to explain how ships and airplanes get around so accurately without knowing how far they’re going. And secondly your basis for this assertion is a “book”, which has simply incorrect claims in it. I analysed one of the chapters in some detail earlier in this thread, here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19222.msg261564#msg261564

And you simply ignored it. It took me 5 minutes to find out his claim about the flight route was incorrect. If you look at the actual route the diversion makes sense. You can cherry pick some examples where the diversion looks like it could also make sense on an AE map, but since that’s a map you don’t accept…so what?


Actually I was able to confirm that Google Maps shows the same route as he claims in the book. From Chapter 7:

(https://i.imgur.com/Hi7jQse.png)

From Google Maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/SFO/DXB/@48.0981751,-66.047636,3z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x808f778c55555555:0xa4f25c571acded3f!2m2!1d-122.3789554!2d37.6213129!1m5!1m1!1s0x3e5f5d0693260e69:0xe695d4007a48eee9!2m2!1d55.3656728!2d25.2531745

(https://i.imgur.com/qHKg4iQ.png)

His point in that section of his book is that the flight routes illustrated on Google Maps are false:

(https://i.imgur.com/CSwMAVj.png)

The flights actually take a different route almost over the North Pole. The fact that the shortest Globe route is similar to the shortest AE Map route in this case is irrelevant to this point that Google Maps paths are false.

He spends the entire chapter attacking Google Maps. I chalk this up to a failure in reading comprehension on your part.

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

No Tom.

I posted a non-exhaustive list of factors considered when choosing where to divert.

That ‘book’ claims that because a flight diverted to airport A instead of airport B, when it clearly (in the author’ mind) should have gone to airport B, that this is evidence of flat earth. No. It’s merely evidence that the flight diverted to airport A.

So still no explanation for why it occurs. Convincing.

- Your wedding photographer presents 16 diverted flights over the course of 30+ years out of maybe, highly approximated, 252,000 diversions.

Throwing out figures with zero analysis. That proves it.  ::)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 26, 2022, 09:07:00 PM
Throwing out figures with zero analysis. That proves it.  ::)

I've never said I have "proved" anything. Just pointing out that the analysis has been done: You've shown that 16 flights over the course of 30+ years out of a potential 200,000+ diverted flights have followed a path on a globe. That's what the AE is anyway, a globe projection.

And I'm not sure what the AE has to do with the Bi-polar, which is another Globe Projection, specifically the Lambert azimuthal equal-area projection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert_azimuthal_equal-area_projection).

So on the Bi-polar, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on March 26, 2022, 09:13:50 PM
Now we're getting somewhere. 

Your "Google Maps excerpt" isn't a flight plan; it's an illustration to dramatise the concept of a flight between Dubai and San Francisco.  Is that where you've been going wrong all along?  Do you also believe that the London Underground trains travel in straight lines and take 30 degree corners, like the map?  Unbelievable. 

Now try asking Google Map for the distance between Dubai and San Francisco, and it will draw a great circle for you, over the Arctic, close to Moscow as we have been saying.

Jeepers, can't believe that you and the wedding guy thought it was a flight plan.  Unbelievable. 
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 26, 2022, 09:15:14 PM
I've never said I have "proved" anything. Just pointing out that the analysis has been done: You've shown that 16 flights over the course of 30+ years out of a potential 200,000+ diverted flights have followed a path on a globe.

You have not shown that they follow the path on a globe at all. Also, diverted flights != emergency landings. Diverting because of bad weather would be different than needing to make an emergency stop.

The author is getting his information from the emergency landings that make it into news articles or discussions, which would still only be a fewer number of the emergency landings which are noteworthy, such as a woman giving birth.

Quote
So on the Bi-polar, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX?

It would depend on the particular map, clearly. You can perform analysis on your own.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 26, 2022, 09:18:00 PM
Now we're getting somewhere. 

Your "Google Maps excerpt" isn't a flight plan; it's an illustration to dramatise the concept of a flight between Dubai and San Francisco.  Is that where you've been going wrong all along?  Do you also believe that the London Underground trains travel in straight lines and take 30 degree corners, like the map?  Unbelievable. 

Now try asking Google Map for the distance between Dubai and San Francisco, and it will draw a great circle for you, over the Arctic, close to Moscow as we have been saying.

Jeepers, can't believe that you and the wedding guy thought it was a flight plan.  Unbelievable.

The author's point is that the Google Maps flight paths are wrong in that chapter. You are posting that you did the calculations in other ways and verified that the Google Maps flight path is wrong. This is what was claimed by the author, that it's wrong.

I didn't claim that Google Maps was a flight plan. It's showing wrong routes, which is an important point in these discussions because people will often use Google Maps in their research.

Pretty embarrassing on your part that you assume that someone is talking about a "flight plan" and rant about it when that claim was not made, and remark "Unbelievable" to this fantasy scenario as if that claim was made. Pretty embarrassing on your part that you can't understand that the author is criticizing the accuracy of the Google Maps fight path, which you agree is wrong. I would suggest that you pay careful attention to what you read in the future.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 26, 2022, 10:11:39 PM
I've never said I have "proved" anything. Just pointing out that the analysis has been done: You've shown that 16 flights over the course of 30+ years out of a potential 200,000+ diverted flights have followed a path on a globe.

You have not shown that they follow the path on a globe at all. Also, diverted flights != emergency landings. Diverting because of bad weather would be different than needing to make an emergency stop.

The author is getting his information from the emergency landings that make it into news articles, which would still only be a fewer number of the emergency landings which are noteworthy, such as a woman giving birth.

How often do commercial airline flights have to make emergency landings? According to John Cox, a retired airline captain that flew for US Airways, emergency landings happen more than many of us would like to think. In 45+ years of aviation, Cox says he made between 10 and 15 emergency landings (in case you’re wondering, no one was injured and no damage was reported to any of the aircraft in the emergency landings Cox had to perform).
https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/blog/2015/may/how-rare-are-emergency-landings-/

One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

Quote
So on the Bi-polar, what's the flight path from Taiwan to LAX?

It would depend on the particular map, clearly. You can perform analysis on your own.

The map in the wiki, obviously. I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?

(https://i.imgur.com/JOGr1wx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/YmC2Y7D.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ypNxCkp.png)
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 26, 2022, 10:17:43 PM
Actually I was able to confirm that Google Maps shows the same route as he claims in the book. From Chapter 7
OK, fair enough. I just looked up the distance between the two cities, I guess Google Maps in that case shows the shortest route which is the route the planes actually take.

Quote
His point in that section of his book is that the flight routes illustrated on Google Maps are false:
OK. So what? He says:

Quote
How could [the emergency landing in Moscow] be possible if the earth is supposed to be a sphere and Google Maps presents us the exact flight route going eastward? Well, the answer to this question is that the earth is not a globe!

No, the actual answer to that question is the route Google Maps presents in this case is not the correct flight route. I can't sensibly talk about why that is, but if you look at the route those planes actually take, a stop in Moscow makes perfect sense.
He also says:

Quote
Google Maps flight paths do not match reality! It’s when emergency landings happen that we learn the true flight routes of these
flights. This problem is not only found in Google Maps. In fact, all flight tracker websites are connected with one master program which is created by NASA.

Which is bullshit.
"When emergency landings happen that we learn the true flight routes of these flights". What utter nonsense, it took me 5 minutes to find the route these flights take.
"all flight tracker websites are connected with one master program which is created by NASA."
He provides zero evidence for this. But because it backs up your narrative you lap it up.
It tales less than 5 minutes to find out that this is nonsense. The first flight tracker I found shows the route a recent flight between SFO and DXB took:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek226#2b45539e

It clearly shows that northern route which multiple other sources said that route takes.
And note the fact that this particular flight did NOT go near Moscow - obviously because of the ongoing situation they kept out of Russian airspace. So you can even correlate data from tracking sites like this with real world events to verify them.

Quote
He spends the entire chapter attacking Google Maps.
He does. And he's correct about the flight path. But he leaps to ridiculous conclusions. Again, I don't know why Google Maps' flight plan is inaccurate, but multiple other sources which are more dedicated to flight planning and live tracking sites show the paths these planes actually take and an emergency stop in Moscow makes perfect sense. Google Maps also correctly shows that northern route if you just do "measure distance" between the two cities. So, at best, all he's got is there's a bug in Google Maps. Multiple other sources show the correct flight path, live tracking sites back that up.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 26, 2022, 10:20:37 PM
One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

My math is that you didn't bother to provide any assessment on where those emergency landings were and are simply assuming that they favor your preferred model.

Quote from: stack
The map in the wiki, obviously.

There are multiple maps and layouts for the Bi-Polar model in the wiki. I would suggest you review - https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

(https://i.imgur.com/OWXOMPu.png) (https://i.imgur.com/5ULHqTZ.jpg)

Both of these have differences between the map you posted. It also clearly says on that page that there is no Bi-Polar map and that these are examples of a possible layout.

Quote from: stack
I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?

(https://i.imgur.com/JOGr1wx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/YmC2Y7D.jpg)

The fact that the emergency landing occurred in Alaska and not Hawaii still makes more sense on that particular map. If the route hugged the coasts of Asia and North America in the Pacific Ocean, it would make sense for an emergency landing in Alaska and not Hawaii.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: inquisitive on March 26, 2022, 10:24:40 PM
One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

My math is that you didn't bother to provide any assessment on where those emergency landings were and simply assume that they favor your preferred model.

Quote
The map in the wiki, obviously.

There are multiple maps and layouts for the bi-polar model in the wiki. I would suggest you review - https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

(https://i.imgur.com/OWXOMPu.png) (https://i.imgur.com/5ULHqTZ.jpg)

Both of these have differences between the map you posted. It also clearly says on that page that there is no Bi-Polar map and that these are examples of a possible layout.

Quote
I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?

(https://i.imgur.com/JOGr1wx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/YmC2Y7D.jpg)

The fact that the emergency landing occurred in Alaska and not Hawaii still makes more sense on that particular map. If the route hugged the coasts of Asia and North America in the Pacific Ocean, it would still make sense for an emergency landing in Alaska and not Hawaii.
What about the WGS84 model?
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: Gonzo on March 26, 2022, 10:53:28 PM


You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.

No Tom.

I posted a non-exhaustive list of factors considered when choosing where to divert.

That ‘book’ claims that because a flight diverted to airport A instead of airport B, when it clearly (in the author’ mind) should have gone to airport B, that this is evidence of flat earth. No. It’s merely evidence that the flight diverted to airport A.

So still no explanation for why it occurs. Convincing.

An explanation for why what occurs?

Have a look at a sample of, for example, the routes taken by flight HAL50 from KHNL-KJFK. One can see the route varies quite a bit, sometimes coasting in near LA, other days over San Francisco, and sometimes even near Seattle. This would be down to many factors of course, but mainly the upper winds and any airspace restrictions and the need to avoid the resultant delays (a major factor in the flight planning of international flights is the difference in airspace route charges between nations (not a factor here, of course). A longer flight burning more fuel might work out less costly overall if it avoids flying through an expensive FIR (Flight Information Region)).

The 'book' claims in Chapter 15 that the aircraft should have landed in LA as that would be closer, the author not realising a) that flight routes vary over time, especially oceanic routes, and b) that the Great Circle route from KHNL to KJFK actually passes almost straight over San Francisco itself, rather than over LA as he claims.

It's incredible that some here seem to hold this 'book' up as evidence of anything other than the author's lack of understanding and knowledge of aviation.
Title: Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
Post by: stack on March 28, 2022, 07:04:42 PM
Melbourne to Dallas in 17 hours: Qantas announces latest ultra long-haul flight to US (https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/qantas-dallas-melbourne-ultra-long-haul-flight/index.html)
The MEL-DFW direct route clocks in around the 17-hour mark, which will add it to the list of the world's longest flights. Tickets for the inaugural flight are on sale now.
Last week, Air New Zealand added a new route to the ultra long-haul club, announcing plans to launch direct flights between Auckland and New York City -- a first for the Kiwi airline. Flights leaving JFK for Auckland will clock in at 17 hours and 35 minutes.
Currently, the longest passenger flight in the world runs between Singapore and JFK on Singapore Airlines. It covers 9,534 miles and spends about 18 hours in the air.


(https://i.imgur.com/dnMQy9R.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/uYKf0Z8.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/p2i5PiA.jpg)