# The Flat Earth Society

## Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: jimster on February 25, 2021, 09:10:27 PM

Title: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on February 25, 2021, 09:10:27 PM
My roommate invited me to go scuba diving at Anacapa Island with him. He had a boat at Channel Islands, near Oxnard. Anacapa Island is about 20 miles offshore. As we motored out, the shoreline disappeared, but you could still see the hills behind Oxnard, which looked like they were sinking beneath the horizon, until just the peaks, then nothing. Looking forward, the top of the Anacapa first became visible, then lower and lower until we could see the shoreline. The reverse happened on the trip back, first seeing the tops of the hills inland behind Oxnard, then more and more became visible until we could see the shoreline. The air was crystal clear and the sea was calm.

I want to diagram what I saw from the side, where did the light rays travel?

Can anyone explain how and why the light rays work to make this happen on FE? I am trying to diagram how this would work at various distances on FE. How can I see things beyond Oxnard and not be able to see Oxnard? Why does it look like the peaks sink into the ocean? I can see the tops of the hills beyond Oxnard, but I can't see Oxnard. I can see miles across the water, so no wave or swell blocked my view.

/\
/   \
/      \
/        Oxnard______________________________boat____________

Please show how the light rays travel when I am about 5 miles from shore such that I can see the sea for miles and the tops of the hills behind appearing to be right on the surface, yet not see Oxnard.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on February 26, 2021, 02:09:04 AM
I will not attempt to best your ascii art, however I think I can help you understand.

There is a density gradient in our air that causes light to bend (convexly) towards the water as the light travels through it.

The light from the bottom of distant objects is diverted into the water first because of this (primarily/initially)
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: stack on February 26, 2021, 03:02:16 AM
I will not attempt to best your ascii art, however I think I can help you understand.

There is a density gradient in our air that causes light to bend (convexly) towards the water as the light travels through it.

The light from the bottom of distant objects is diverted into the water first because of this (primarily/initially)

At what distance is the light diverted from the bottom of objects? What calculation do you use to predict when an objects bottom goes missing due to diverted light?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 26, 2021, 10:09:35 AM
I will not attempt to best your ascii art, however I think I can help you understand.

There is a density gradient in our air that causes light to bend (convexly) towards the water as the light travels through it.

The light from the bottom of distant objects is diverted into the water first because of this (primarily/initially)
So, an issue I have with some FE reasoning is it seems to be a combination of claiming that the earth must be flat because ships don't really sink below the horizon (Rowbotham claimed that ships going below the horizon can be "restored" by optical magnification which is patently false) and claiming that there are optical effects which make it appear that things are sinking below the horizon when they are not.

The former is clearly not true - sure, sometimes small boats which are too small to be seen with the naked eye at a certain distance can be seen by optical magnification, but you can easily find footage and images of boats clearly sinking below the horizon zoomed in in such a way that clearly they can't be restored.

If the latter is true then your claim is basically that the earth is flat and any observations you make which fit better with a globe earth are simply optical effects. If so then how you do you determine the shape of the earth?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: SteelyBob on February 26, 2021, 11:46:13 AM
I will not attempt to best your ascii art, however I think I can help you understand.

There is a density gradient in our air that causes light to bend (convexly) towards the water as the light travels through it.

The light from the bottom of distant objects is diverted into the water first because of this (primarily/initially)

I think we can all agree that there's a density gradient in the air - air density reduces with increasing altitude.

If I'm, say 10 feet above the sea level, observing an object that's also 10 feet above the sea, then it seems we can all also agree that, contrary to Rowbotham as AATW points out, as I move further away from that object then it will progressively appear to dip lower and lower until such a time as it goes below the horizon.

I would say that's because the earth is curved. You're saying it's because the light from it curves down due to the 'density gradient'. But if I'm 10 feet above the water, and the object is also 10 feet above the water, then the air density in a straight line between us is constant, so why would the light curve?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 26, 2021, 01:42:39 PM
I think we can all agree that there's a density gradient in the air - air density reduces with increasing altitude.

I haven't heard specific claims to the contrary, but this would imply that if you go high enough you would reach (almost) empty Space. Space is disputed by some FE advocates, who insist that a dome is required to hold the atmosphere in (because there is no Gravity).
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: SteelyBob on February 26, 2021, 05:41:31 PM
I think we can all agree that there's a density gradient in the air - air density reduces with increasing altitude.

I haven't heard specific claims to the contrary, but this would imply that if you go high enough you would reach (almost) empty Space. Space is disputed by some FE advocates, who insist that a dome is required to hold the atmosphere in (because there is no Gravity).

Ah, they don't think gravity exists, but they do (mostly) think the earth is accelerating upwards at 1g, so the density gradient is consistent with that at least. Don't ask about the need for an enormous power source, or the absence of explanation for why and how the planets and stars accelerate at the same rate. Just go with it.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on February 26, 2021, 07:24:53 PM
Thank you Jack for the direct specific explanation. I do hope you read this and continue my exploration into making sense of this on FE.

Oxnard is at sea level and the boat is at sea level. Air should be equally dense. Why did the light ray not travel straight to me? Where did it go?

I would expect density bending to be a gradual proportionate process, but the top of the peak was undistorted with a sharp cutoff. How can that be?

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: SteelyBob on March 08, 2021, 10:33:09 AM
I will not attempt to best your ascii art, however I think I can help you understand.

There is a density gradient in our air that causes light to bend (convexly) towards the water as the light travels through it.

The light from the bottom of distant objects is diverted into the water first because of this (primarily/initially)

Hello Jack. Still awaiting a reply to my question:

Quote
But if I'm 10 feet above the water, and the object is also 10 feet above the water, then the air density in a straight line between us is constant, so why would the light curve?

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on March 09, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
@aatw

Quote
If so then how you do you determine the shape of the earth?

Aye, that's the rub! You've got it - great question!

There is only one way to determine the shape of physical objects with certainty and it is not "look at shit"  [the sky, the boat, the horizon etc.] followed by declaration on what you are seeing.  No empirical science is conducted by simply looking (aside from the establishment of natural law, the sole caveat)
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on March 09, 2021, 07:11:13 PM
@peter

I do hope you will return, but I understand if you do not.  You may want to give the sister site a whirl (search the forums here for it) too.

I am one such "space skeptic/denier", and have concluded that not only is "space" complete fiction (and has its origins, indisputably, in that medium) but that it cannot exist in the reality we study.  It would violate many well established natural laws which have stood for centuries without contest.

The gradient is caused by weight (an intrinsic and inexorable property of all matter) and exists in every container of gas (great and small) for the same reason.  It is a popularly taught misconception that the gradient proves "there's vacuum up there!", and part of the stupidest mythology that mankind has ever concocted (and that is no small feat) - "the infinite sky vacuum".
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on March 09, 2021, 07:22:28 PM
@jimster & steelybob

Air should be equally dense. Why did the light ray not travel straight to me? Where did it go?

Great question(s)!  It went into the water due to interaction with matter on route, as I explained.

Here is a video that shows a demonstration of what is occurring.  We can discuss the why after that!

Quote
I would expect density bending to be a gradual proportionate process, but the top of the peak was undistorted with a sharp cutoff. How can that be?

Because the light is still reaching your eyes! The other reason is that when looking upward at an angle, you are looking through much less matter (the same is true in reverse, and is one of the chief reasons we can see farther from higher up)
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: SteelyBob on March 09, 2021, 07:41:46 PM
@jimster & steelybob

Air should be equally dense. Why did the light ray not travel straight to me? Where did it go?

Great question(s)!  It went into the water due to interaction with matter on route, as I explained.

Here is a video that shows a demonstration of what is occurring.  We can discuss the why after that!

Quote
I would expect density bending to be a gradual proportionate process, but the top of the peak was undistorted with a sharp cutoff. How can that be?

Because the light is still reaching your eyes! The other reason is that when looking upward at an angle, you are looking through much less matter (the same is true in reverse, and is one of the chief reasons we can see farther from higher up)

That entire point of that experiment is that the laser travels through a medium with varying refractive index. See here for a more detailed explanation:

https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/bouncing-light-beam (https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/bouncing-light-beam)

And yes, the experiment elegantly demonstrates atmospheric refraction. But the reason we get refraction is because the air has, as you say, a density gradient - if you draw a straight line through a curved air mass it encounters different densities at an angle, and so refraction happens. If the world was flat that wouldn’t happen - as per my previous comment, if you’re at 10 feet, and the thing you’re observing is at ten feet, the density is constant, regardless of the gradient in atmospheric pressure.

So, again, where in your model of what’s going on is there a gradient that could cause refraction?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Iceman on March 09, 2021, 08:42:48 PM
No empirical science is conducted by simply looking (aside from the establishment of natural law, the sole caveat)

What exactly are you trying to say here?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Elyn95 on March 09, 2021, 09:04:09 PM

That entire point of that experiment is that the laser travels through a medium with varying refractive index. See here for a more detailed explanation:

https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/bouncing-light-beam (https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/bouncing-light-beam)

And yes, the experiment elegantly demonstrates atmospheric refraction. But the reason we get refraction is because the air has, as you say, a density gradient - if you draw a straight line through a curved air mass it encounters different densities at an angle, and so refraction happens. If the world was flat that wouldn’t happen - as per my previous comment, if you’re at 10 feet, and the thing you’re observing is at ten feet, the density is constant, regardless of the gradient in atmospheric pressure.

So, again, where in your model of what’s going on is there a gradient that could cause refraction?
[/quote]

But in this experiment the line is not being drawn through a curved mass, the tank is flat and the line still curves? If he was shining it through a globe goldfish bowl then I would concede your point, but here the experiment seems to back up the hypothesis of the curvature of light through a flat densiity gradient.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on March 09, 2021, 09:29:28 PM
There is only one way to determine the shape of physical objects with certainty and it is not "look at shit"  [the sky, the boat, the horizon etc.] followed by declaration on what you are seeing.  No empirical science is conducted by simply looking (aside from the establishment of natural law, the sole caveat)

You tell us there is "only one way" then fail to specify the way.

You tell us what way is not the way. You hint that something is required in addition to looking at stuff, but fail to specify what that something is.

Do you have anything to add?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: SteelyBob on March 09, 2021, 09:50:45 PM

That entire point of that experiment is that the laser travels through a medium with varying refractive index. See here for a more detailed explanation:

https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/bouncing-light-beam (https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/bouncing-light-beam)

And yes, the experiment elegantly demonstrates atmospheric refraction. But the reason we get refraction is because the air has, as you say, a density gradient - if you draw a straight line through a curved air mass it encounters different densities at an angle, and so refraction happens. If the world was flat that wouldn’t happen - as per my previous comment, if you’re at 10 feet, and the thing you’re observing is at ten feet, the density is constant, regardless of the gradient in atmospheric pressure.

So, again, where in your model of what’s going on is there a gradient that could cause refraction?

But in this experiment the line is not being drawn through a curved mass, the tank is flat and the line still curves? If he was shining it through a globe goldfish bowl then I would concede your point, but here the experiment seems to back up the hypothesis of the curvature of light through a flat densiity gradient.
[/quote]

One of my pet hates on this forum is when people don’t admit they are wrong, so I need to be honest with myself and admit that you’re dead right - my apologies. A poor example of the point I’m trying to make. Happy to stand corrected.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: scomato on March 10, 2021, 03:03:35 AM
Light can bend when it comes into contact with molecules that disrupt its linear path. This is how mirages work, with the rising action of hot air causing the light distortion. The light from above the road, that would have otherwise missed your eyes completely, are deflected upwards into your eyes creating the illusion.

Light also gets refracted when it passes through other changes in the air. Like in the exhaust of a jet engine.

Refraction of Light is also responsible for the awesome effect you get using the process of Schlieren Imaging, which uses the refractive variation in light to 'see' perturbations in air pressure and wind.

Light rays can also be bent on cosmic scales, "the graceful arcs at the center of this image from the Hubble Space Telescope are actually the distorted light of distant galaxies, twisted to form an "Einstein ring" by the gravitational influence of the closer galaxy cluster SDSS J0146-0929."

(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/ZuXqyzNXBSJv4Ja9vcBTp8-1024-80.jpg.webp)

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on March 10, 2021, 04:59:06 PM
@scomato

The last of your examples is wrong.  The rest are right!

The only thing that can alter lights path is direct interaction with matter.  "Gravitational lensing" is fiction with only clear experimental/scientific/demonstrative refutation (no support whatsoever).
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: scomato on March 10, 2021, 05:26:26 PM
@scomato

The last of your examples is wrong.  The rest are right!

The only thing that can alter lights path is direct interaction with matter.  "Gravitational lensing" is fiction with only clear experimental/scientific/demonstrative refutation (no support whatsoever).

Well, if we want to get pedantic about it, gravity doesn't alter Light's path through space, like interaction with matter does. Gravity warps the space that light is travelling through itself, as far as the photon is concerned it has never changed course. It is more akin to drawing a straight line on a piece of paper, and then bending the paper.

Can you kindly cite any work that clearly refutes gravitational lensing?

You are dead wrong with the claim that the only thing that can alter a light's path is interaction with matter. Experiments at LIGO (which is just a giant Michelson Interferometer, described below) proved the existence of gravitational waves that are constantly passing through the earth, like ocean waves rocking a boat at sea.

It is kind of an interesting round-circle, Michelson and Morley originally conducted their original experiment (which won them the 1907 Nobel Prize) to disprove the Aether theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment), and then over a hundred years later the same method was used to prove the existence of gravitational waves.

(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/g9S9gKUKAjRDcqdVj2jPUL-320-80.jpg)

This 'blip' that is simultaneously observed at both LIGO stations is the interference pattern caused by gravitational waves rocking through the planet. This is irrefutable proof of gravity's effect on light - but nobody has seriously argued against gravity effecting light since Newtonian physics.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/l4KhUjhoO6RC4UHhS/200_d.gif)

It is funny, because the proponents of the Aether Theory were kind of on the right track, sort of. But instead of an Aether what there actually is, is a gravitational background.

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 10, 2021, 06:21:52 PM
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on March 10, 2021, 06:28:17 PM
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Do you agree with him?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on April 29, 2021, 04:43:57 AM
None of the above explains this, I will try to express the issue again.

/\
/  \
/    \                                                     _____
/      \______________________________\     /

I saw the top of the mountain and I saw the ocean between the boat and the shore. Where did the light rays from the shoreline (between them) go? Presumably, they follow parallel paths and remain between the mountain top rays and the ocean rays.

How could light rays from above them and below them reach me, but not the rays from the shore? It ain't distance, the mountain is behind the shore. Sure looked like the mountain was descending below the water.

This is the exact way it would appear with RE, but we are to prefer the explanation that requires unknown forces that you can't explain or demonstrate?

Tom Bishop, don't go away, that means you have no answer and the earth is round. You have to explain how the light rays disappear. Unknown forces? Conspiracy? Where are those light rays?

FE can't explain sharp cutoffs, everything in FE is gradual. No explanation for relatively quick transition of day to night, or the sharp cutoff of the sun as it rises and sets. FE has to do it with bending and distance, and those things are gradual. Explaining the sharp cutoffs requires light not to just bend, but to just disappear.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on April 29, 2021, 07:07:51 AM
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Is it agreed that Rowbottom asserted straight light rays?

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/1/1a/Experiment-2a.jpg)
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: fisherman on April 29, 2021, 05:05:43 PM
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Quote
Therefore according to Dr. Dowdye, all the supposed gravitational lensing that scientists see is in reality, light passing through not empty space or space-time bending, but passing through mass and the mass in space is bending the light

The mass in space bends spacetime.  You can't separate the two concepts. If light moving through mass (not even sure how that could work) is what bends it, by definition it is moving through bent space time. Wherever there is mass, there is a bend in space time.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: fisherman on April 29, 2021, 05:38:42 PM
Quote
I am one such "space skeptic/denier", and have concluded that not only is "space" complete fiction (and has its origins, indisputably, in that medium) but that it cannot exist in the reality we study.  It would violate many well established natural laws which have stood for centuries without contest.

Quote
I am one such "space skeptic/denier", and have concluded that not only is "space" complete fiction (and has its origins, indisputably, in that medium) but that it cannot exist in the reality we study.  It would violate many well established natural laws which have stood for centuries without contest.

Jack, if I understand your position correctly, you believe that space doesn’t exist independent of the matter that it is in.  If all matter disappeared, then space would cease to exist?  Is that correct?

If so, Einstein spent the better part of 10 years trying to prove exactly that.  He struggled for 10 years to come up with field equations that make all  laws of physics work exactly the way the we observe even if there was no matter in space and space ceased to exist. He failed.  IOW, in order for the laws of physics, specifically the inertial motion of bodies to behave as we observe, space must exist as a separate physical entity.

Einstein’s field equations confirm this.  Where are you equations that contradict his?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: RonJ on April 30, 2021, 02:24:30 AM
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/ (https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/)
How could you believe anything that Dr. Edward Dowdye says?  He used to work for NASA.  Additionally, if you watch the video, he says that the Sun is millions of miles away from the earth, not 3000, as stated in the Wiki.  So, is Dr. Dowdye correct or is he spouting more nonsense as is typical of NASA minions? If you wish to have people believe in FET you have to be consistent in each and every little thing.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on May 05, 2021, 11:36:33 AM
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Is it agreed that Rowbottom asserted straight light rays?

IMG above

It strikes me that we have better optics available than in Rowbottom's day, and that the Wiki and ENAG Workshop could be updated with improved versions which don't rely on line drawings as proof.

Unless some enterprising zetecist has already done this ... ?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Flex on May 05, 2021, 12:01:25 PM
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on May 05, 2021, 01:26:02 PM
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.

Yes, but we're merely talking about observation of things like flags, islands, lighthouses etc. that we can see.

And we could observe over land and rivers, not just oceans.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 05, 2021, 04:01:06 PM
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.
No it isn't. Unless you're on the water's edge and lying down. Or there are really big waves. A wave can only occlude as much of a distant object as its own height if the viewer height is the same height as the waves, which it will be if you're standing up unless there's a particularly choppy sea.

(https://i.ibb.co/2jq1N2B/Elephant.jpg)

And distant buildings are occluded when looking over large inland lakes too.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on May 06, 2021, 09:45:56 AM
And we could observe over land and rivers, not just oceans.

Like this - the view over the Forth Estuary in Scotland. Ignore the green annotations; they were for another discussion elsewhere

(https://i.imgur.com/GFSRrQQ.jpg)

The waves cannot be obscuring the tops of the bridge towers, for the tallest ones are 210m tall.
The waves cannot be obscuring the tops of the hills beyond. They are approx 400m tall.
The observer was at 210m elevation.

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: scomato on May 06, 2021, 02:30:13 PM
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.

Standing on one end of Lake Ontario you can see Toronto the other side. I believe this photo is taken from New York based on the angle.

Where did half the city go? Lake Ontario typically only has waves under 5 feet, up to 10-20 when it's stormy, so waves can't explain why the bottom half of the city skyline is missing from view.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2629/3934316614_c45f625870_o.jpg)

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 07, 2021, 03:10:49 PM
Just going to think out loud for a moment.

Been thinking about Scamato's horizon pic.  I know some of the thoughts of hidden horizon center around EA and bendy light so it got me thinking about how bendy light might actually work here.

We're all familiar with this image from the EA Wiki.

(https://i.imgur.com/mOPRvya.png)

What's postulated and attempted to quantify with the EA equation is that the bend of light becomes steeper the further you are from the earth's surface.  This got me to thinking how this would affect how the horizon is viewed as one travels vertically from a given position.  Wouldn't EA cause the effect that as person rises in elevation that the angle at which they view the horizon actually becomes steeper?  Wouldn't this then cause the horizon to actually appear nearer that person.

For example. Consider a person standing at 3PM at an elevation where they see the horizon at 6PM on the 6PM curve in the EA picture.  Now move the 6PM horizon curve to what would be 7PM and change the observers elevation to meet that curve.  Wouldn't the observer now see the horizon while looking at a more downward angle which would give the appearance that the horizon has moved closer to them.  Of course there would be the question of whether or not the effect would even be observable at the range of which an observer could actually see.

Just thinking about how it might work.

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on May 10, 2021, 06:27:15 PM
I was in a 16 foot open boat. Any wave that would block my vision would have sunk the boat. It's the Pacific ocean, pacific, from the latin pacifus, meaning peaceful. No wave blocked my vision. Southern CA, clear cloudless, no haze.

Also in the EA section of the wiki it says that scientists don't think light bends because they just never consider the possibility. This puzzles me, as I was taught reflection, refraction, and Einsteinian gravity bending, It seems they are open to the idea of bending. They even have experiments and equations, and consistency with other ways to measure.

It also talks about how a car can't continue straight because without constant corrections. Actually, on a flat surface with no crown on the road, my cars track straight. I suggest the author of the the wiki should get his car aligned, perhaps new tires. But it doesn't matter, because science does have the aforementioned "bumps in the road". They are known, measured, confirmed, and considered in the science and navigation.

WTF, there is a thin line between extending the model and proof by contradiction. That's why it's always "no one knows" and "no equations yet", etc. FE is allergic to details and consistency. It is a one layer system. RE poses question, FE has glib flawed answer, then pursuing it further goes nowhere. Change topic, get angry, say it has already been answered, that question is not allowed, or just don't respond. FE would do well in politics with these skills.

My original question still has not been answered and can be posed re the picture of sailboat and skyline posted above. I can see the water for miles, and the tops of the mountain/buildings. If I draw a side view diagram, the rays come up from the water and down from the building/mountain tops meet at my eye. What happened to the light rays between? No haze, no big waves.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 12, 2021, 04:58:54 PM
My original question still has not been answered and can be posed re the picture of sailboat and skyline posted above. I can see the water for miles, and the tops of the mountain/buildings. If I draw a side view diagram, the rays come up from the water and down from the building/mountain tops meet at my eye. What happened to the light rays between? No haze, no big waves.

I'm surprised no one invoked Bendy-Light in response to your question.  Here's what I believe would be the Bendy-Light explanation for what you see:

(https://i.imgur.com/z8omVEB.png)

On the left is the object being viewed.  Should have drawn it a little taller for clarity.  The red line shows what would be the height at which the object can start to be seen.  It travels to the green horizon line and then continues to the viewer (you).  Above the red line the object is visible.  The blue lines show how the image of the object would crash into the ground and thus disappear below the horizon.  The black lines show how the image of the water beyond the horizon would curve up above the viewer thus not being seen at the viewers elevation until you get to the horizon line at which time the water becomes visible.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 12, 2021, 05:29:57 PM

Here's another interesting circumstance of "Help me understand how light rays travel"

Here's an image of how the Sun would be positioned with respect to Melbourne, Australia based on the FE north monopole model.

(https://i.imgur.com/9xOXwmB.png)

The red circle is the Tropic of Cancer (June Solstice) the blue line is the Tropic of Capricorn (December Solstice).

'A' is the postition of the sun at sunrise in Melbourne on the December solstice based on the time and the 360 degree daily rotation of the sun.  If we leave the distance that light travels on the December solstice constant and try to determine what time sunrise would be on the June solstice we get position 'B'.  You will see that 'B' extends beyond the Tropic of Cancer even at the longest distance from Melbourne to the Tropic of Cancer.  This means, based on the distance that light can travel on the December solstice, that the Sun shouldn't set at the June solstice.  What actually occurs is that the sun rises at position 'C' in Melbourne at the June solstice.

So, what we need to understand is how the distance that light rays travel shortens between the December and June solstices.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: existoid on May 12, 2021, 05:50:07 PM

If we leave the distance that light travels on the December solstice constant and try to determine what time sunrise would be on the June solstice we get position 'B'.

Can you elaborate/show your work on this?  Not disagreeing, I just don't comprehend it.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: WTF_Seriously on May 12, 2021, 06:55:15 PM

If we leave the distance that light travels on the December solstice constant and try to determine what time sunrise would be on the June solstice we get position 'B'.

Can you elaborate/show your work on this?  Not disagreeing, I just don't comprehend it.

Sure.

Just to reiterate, position A is dictated by sunrise.  Based off of solar noon (where the sun would appear due north of Melbourne), you can go back to sunrise @ 15 degrees/hr. and position the sun on the Tropic of Capricorn.  This would give straight line distance that sunlight travels (M to A) when the sun rises on the December solstice at Melbourne.

If you now take M as the center of rotation, you can use M to A as the radius and rotate the sun toward the latitude of the Tropic of Cancer.  What is a little confusing is that B never instersects the Tropic of Cancer since the M to A line is too long.  Had the sun intersected the Tropic of Cancer somewhere, that would indicate the time at which the sun would become viewable at the June solstice in Melbourne based off the distance that it is able to travel on the December solstice .  Since the distance from M to B (M to B equals M to A) is so long going through the north pole, it would dictate that the sun would not set leading up to the June solstice.

Hope that clarifies it.

Edited to add:  B sits at approximately 19 degrees lattitude.  This would dictate that Melbourne should be in constant sunlight anytime the sun is north of 19 degrees latitude based on the analysis of the model.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on May 23, 2021, 05:27:20 PM
Still no answer on the original post. The light rays from the ocean around the boat reach my eyes, the rays from the top of the mountain reach my eyes. In my field of vision, Oxnard is between the two. Why did the rays from Oxnard not reach my eyes?

We returned at night, and there was one light that first appeared. More lights appeard under the first, and when we got close, the entire shore was lit up. The bright lights of the marine were not compressed, they were missing. Why did I not see the very bright lights of the marina and hotels all the way back? Why did I see one light, then more, and finally the lit up shoreline?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: scomato on May 23, 2021, 08:18:33 PM
Everyone likes to talk about how light works above the surface of the water, but I don't think I've ever seen someone bring up the behavior of light under the water.

One of the coolest things I've ever done is cenote diving in Mexico. The best part of the whole experience, is that you get spectacular sun rays through the cracks and crevices to the surface above.

This quite aptly disproves the diagram here (https://i.imgur.com/mOPRvya.png) and the possibility that light is refracted horizontally as it approaches the surface of the Earth. Which makes sense - the water level is kind of an arbitrary line, there's nothing special about it, and diving under water proves that light continues to travel in a straight line path regardless of whether you're above or below the water level.

(https://i.imgur.com/FW1ag34.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qVnHvKo.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CZPi6gJ.jpg)

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on August 29, 2021, 02:47:30 PM
Jack, if I understand your position correctly, you believe that space doesn’t exist independent of the matter that it is in.  If all matter disappeared, then space would cease to exist?  Is that correct?

Like the antagonist from the neverending story?

I have not considered your hypothetical before.  In my view, there is no possibility to do as you propose.  We cannot devoid any area completely of matter, no matter how hard we try.  Nequaquam vacuum.

As a proponent of aether, I have reason to suspect that even if you could create "perfect vacuum" devoid of all matter we recognize - it would still be full of aether (an ultrafine fluid).

My instinct is that if we could devoid an area of aether as well, that it would continue to exist.

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IOW, in order for the laws of physics, specifically the inertial motion of bodies to behave as we observe, space must exist as a separate physical entity.

This is a fundamental premise of all aetherists (and relativity, itself an aether theory)
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on August 29, 2021, 02:54:38 PM
Still no answer on the original post.

You mean, except mine - right?

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Why did the rays from Oxnard not reach my eyes?

They were diverted into the land/water by refraction.

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Why did I see one light, then more, and finally the lit up shoreline?

Because as you get closer to the light source, the amount of refraction (bending convexly towards the surface) lessens because it travels through less air to reach you.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on August 29, 2021, 05:04:41 PM
Refraction as known to conventional RE science is explained by light traveling through layers of air at different temperatures. Sometimes, as over a body of water, a cool, dense layer of air underlies a heated layer. An opposite phenomenon will then prevail, in which light rays will reach the eye that were originally directed above the line of sight. Thus, an object ordinarily out of view, like a boat below the horizon, will be apparently lifted into the sky. This phenomenon is called looming.

https://www.britannica.com/science/looming

Refraction through the atmosphere results in things appearing higher than they are, while I saw the mountain appear to sink into the sea. This is consistent with the air being denser, thus slowing the speed of light, at lower altitudes.

Ironically, this phenomenon is responsible for pictures of cities across lakes that shouldn't be visible per RE, yet they are. RE will tell you about temperatures on different days that make this happen or not. FE uses this as proof of FE. So on one FE post we have "you shouldn't see this, yet you do, so FE!", but here, you claim it as an explanation for what you don't see.

Two conclusions:

1. FE refraction works the opposite of RE refraction. RE has diagrams, explanations, experiments for refraction. FE does not.

2. FE uses the word "refraction" without detailed rigorous explanation to explain why the world that appears RE is actually FE. For FE, light bends however it needs to. Ref position of sun at sunset/sunrise, north star angle above the horizon equals latitude, etc.

Apologies if I failed to see your (wrong) explanation. There are so many off-topic, personal, and otherwise irrelevant posts I have trouble reading through the BS.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: ichoosereality on August 30, 2021, 01:37:38 AM
Everyone likes to talk about how light works above the surface of the water, but I don't think I've ever seen someone bring up the behavior of light under the water.

One of the coolest things I've ever done is cenote diving in Mexico. The best part of the whole experience, is that you get spectacular sun rays through the cracks and crevices to the surface above.
Cool dives!  Is that amazing water clarity the norm?

And of course you are correct about the path of light and refraction.  The refraction occurs at the boundary and the path is straight otherwise.  Our technology exploiting this (lenses) is obviously quite well developed.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on August 30, 2021, 09:42:16 PM
Refraction as known to conventional RE science

Lol, there is no "RE science" nor "FE science".  The shape of the entire world doesn't have much, if any, bearing on science.

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is explained by light traveling through layers of air at different temperatures.

That is one way it occurs, yes.  It is more accurate to say that refraction is caused by light traveling through varying densities of media (one possible cause of differing density is temperature)

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This phenomenon is called looming.

We aren't discussing looming (though it is well worth doing so).  We are discussing the "normal" refraction, convexly towards the surface, caused by the density gradient that normally exists in the air (even when the air has uniform temperature)

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Refraction through the atmosphere results in things appearing higher than they are, while I saw the mountain appear to sink into the sea. This is consistent with the air being denser, thus slowing the speed of light, at lower altitudes.

The air is indeed (typically) denser with lower altitude.  Looming is a pretty rare phenomenon - I'm talking about something that happens most of the time.  A straight ray (imagined, of course - there are no rays) traveling from a higher elevation to a lower one through a "normal" density gradient will be diverted convexly downwards towards the surface.  This is also what we see in reality, and the reason that the bottoms of distant things disappear first (the light from them is diverted, by the density gradient, into the surface and no longer reaches the distant observer first)

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Ironically, this phenomenon is responsible for pictures of cities across lakes that shouldn't be visible per RE, yet they are.

This isn't about looming.  That's a discussion unto itself!

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1. FE refraction works the opposite of RE refraction.

Nope! Refraction is pretty well understood and, like most everything else in science, does not have any dependency on the shape of the entire world.

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RE has diagrams, explanations, experiments for refraction. FE does not.

You need to get this nonsense out of your head.  There is only one science and it takes place on a flat earth either because it is, or because it just effectively is on the scale we live and practice science.

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2. FE uses the word "refraction" without detailed rigorous explanation to explain why the world that appears RE is actually FE. For FE, light bends however it needs to. Ref position of sun at sunset/sunrise, north star angle above the horizon equals latitude, etc.

I don't know who this "FE" is you keep prattling on about, but I understand and can rigorously explain refraction as well as why it is often mistaken for "sphericity".

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Apologies if I failed to see your (wrong) explanation. There are so many off-topic, personal, and otherwise irrelevant posts I have trouble reading through the BS.

You cannot objectively evaluate/study anything if your inherent bias is that it MUST be wrong.

You may benefit from going back over my posts in addition to responding to this one.
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on September 01, 2021, 06:47:27 PM
jack44556677 - Whatever you want to call it, there is a huge group of people doing what they call "science" most of which is "settled" (f=ma, periodic table, RE, etc). The same ideas, equations, experiments all consistent with each other, all over the world in schools, engineering labs, etc. It works, chemistry, physics, etc produces working gadgets, airplanes, computers, internet, including google earth and nav equipment and gps. All matches, all works, all based on RE. There is a part of this which is blurry or controversial at the edge of what is known (string theory, quantum, big bang, etc). But that is not what we are talking about here, the science of refraction is well known and not controversial, the are many refraction calculators available.

Then there is Bob Knodel, seeing 15 degrees per hour on his ring laser gyroscope and refusing to accept RE, attributing it to "unknown forces". In FE, some say gravity does not exist, in the FAQ it says light bends (due to unknown forces with unknown equations) to explain the problem that the north star angle above the horizon matches latitude, but if the earth is a flat disk, the angles don't meet in the same place, see the diagram in the FAQ.

I call the collection of settled proven consistent science believed by consensus RE science. I use the phrase FE science to describe whatever changes, exceptions, misunderstandings, etc used to explain the gap between observed reality (north star/sextant/latitude) and the mismatch to FE geometry.

You got me on temperature, it is density, but the point is the same, both contribute, lessen with altitude, and both bend the light down. Search astral navigation refraction and you will find warnings that if you shoot a star near the horizon it will appear higher than it really is. This makes no sense, as the mountain appeared to sink into the water.

Let's get to the heart of the OP. Here is a diagram of where I was with the earth surface flat:

/\
/  \
/     \                                               _o__
/        \_________________________\    /

Here is what I saw:

/ \                                                   _o__
/   \                     ________________\    /

Per your explanation, the real position of the mountain would be, minus the part I didn't see:

/\
/  \
_o__
________________\    /

Please draw the light rays to show how they travel. Bear in mind that your ray is just one of many, there are rays going lower and higher, all directions, some crash into the ocean and some reach the eye if no object blocks it. In RE what blocks it is the crest of the curved surface of the ocean. In what I call FE science, the light bends however it needs to and disappears entirely without equation, explanation, or experiment.

Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jack44556677 on September 01, 2021, 09:22:35 PM
Whatever you want to call it

I call it what it is, and you should too - science! There are many alternatives to science, but there is only one science.

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All matches, all works, all based on RE.

You aren't grasping what I'm saying.  None of it is based on an RE.  Science takes place on a flat earth either because the earth is flat or because it merely effectively is on the scale we live and practice all science.

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But that is not what we are talking about here, the science of refraction is well known and not controversial, the are many refraction calculators available.

We are currently not discussing "blurry" science, but we often are in this topic. Gravitation is a very common topic, and almost nothing in science is "blurrier".

I agree that refraction is reasonably well understood, and like all the other science - doesn't depend on the shape of the world.

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Then there is Bob Knodel

Don't watch netflix entertainment and mistake it for research.  Just general advice.

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attributing it to "unknown forces"

This perspective makes more sense if you understand the history of physics, not that bob would know that.

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In FE, some say gravity does not exist

Many do, but that isn't what they mean.  They mean GRAVITATION doesn't exist.  No one denies the 2 millennia old natural law of gravity.

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I call the collection of settled proven consistent science believed by consensus RE science.

I recognize that, which is why I am trying to explain to you why you shouldn't continue to.  Consensus is a very dirty word in science, and the cohesive consistency you believe exists (because of miseducation to that effect) is an illusion.  There is no "RE science", there is just science and it belongs to all!

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I use the phrase FE science to describe whatever changes, exceptions, misunderstandings, etc used to explain the gap between observed reality (north star/sextant/latitude) and the mismatch to FE geometry.

I can appreciate that, however it (fe science) is more correctly and effectively conveyed as alternative interpretations.  The belief in the shape of the world of the person who holds them is irrelevant, from a scientific perspective.

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This makes no sense, as the mountain appeared to sink into the water.

I promise you it does, and better yet I can help you demonstrate it for yourself!  The "trick" you are missing is that the angle the light enters (and travels through) the density gradient is important! The density gradient only ever causes the light to divert downwards.  If the light enters horizontally or towards the ground, it will appear lower than it ought (or won't reach you at all anymore).  If light enters the gradient towards the sky, it will again be bent downwards - sometimes being interpreted/seen as being "above" "where it should be".

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Here is what I saw:

/ \                                                   _o__
/   \                     ________________\    /

Yes, exactly as I described.

Just draw half a rainbow (more or less the actual path light travels through the air) from the top of the mountain to your head on the ship.  The mountaintop ray reaches your eye, and each ray below it curves slightly more convexly than the last one.  The reason for that is the density gradient.  It is also the reason you can continue to see the peak so much longer - there is physically less matter on that linear path to you (the observer) than for any of the subsequent steeper angles.

Please let me know if you still aren't understanding.

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In what I call FE science, the light bends however it needs to and disappears entirely without equation, explanation, or experiment.

Perhaps I can convince you to use the word "conception".  That's what I frequently use, and that is explicitly what you are talking about.  There aren't 2 (or more) science, there are 2 (and more) conceptions of what the shape of the world is (generally regardless of/irrelevant to science)
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: Tumeni on September 01, 2021, 10:21:54 PM
"Just draw half a rainbow (more or less the actual path light travels through the air) from the top of the mountain to your head on the ship."

... but the other guy asked you to DRAW it, not describe what to draw...

Can you draw it on a piece of paper, and scan it, or draw it in a drawing program or app?
Title: Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
Post by: jimster on September 04, 2021, 05:35:15 PM
Rays bounce off objects in all directions, that's why you can see objects from every angle.  Some of the rays do bounce at a low angle or bend slightly and hit the ocean. If the ocean were flat calm, you would see this as a reflection. But rays do not bounce in one single direction, they bounce in all directions. That's why you can see mountain across a flat calm lake at the same time you see its reflection. One ray reflected down and off the lake, while another went straight to your eye.

So if there is a ray that bends down and hits the ocean, there was also a ray that bounced slightly higher such that this one ends up hitting your eye.

/\
/  \

X                                      _o__
_____________\     /

Tell me the angle of refraction and I will draw a curve at that angle from X to my eye. There is an unblocked path from everywhere down to the shoreline through the path of refraction. Refraction doesn't make things disappear, it makes them look higher than they really are. Like the pics I posted about looming.

You can draw an unblccked path to my eye through the curve of refraction to any point on the mountain down to the shoreline. I should be able to see the entire mountain if the earth is flat.

Simple example, a man looking at X. Here I show a ray that bounces down and hits the ground, yet X is still visible!

X            O
\           /|\
\           /\

Now suppose refraction is bending the light down at 45 degrees after it bounces of X. Has X become invisible? No, because light is bouncing off X in all directions, including 45 degrees up, where the refraction would bend it right into your eye.

_
/    \
X        O
\      /|\
\      /\

But because your mind interprets as though light rays travel straight, you would see this:

X
\
\
\
O
/|\
/\

See "looming". Search "atmospheric refraction". Refraction causes the entire scene to seem higher than it is. It does not make part of it invisible.

You see things if they are not blocked. On FE, nothing blocks it. On RE, the crest of the curved ocean surface blocks it.