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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2018, 06:24:40 AM »
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

Therein lies the crux of the matter.  Those flights exist.  I myself flew back and forth from Los Angeles to Melbourne twice this year over the Pacific. We never flew over land. The flight lasted 14 hours heading SW and returning NE. I know we were flying those directions as we were chasing the setting sun and then nearing Australia with the rising sun chasing us.  That map is impossible, indefensible, it has more problems then the other flat earth maps.  You still have never had an answer for the path of moon and sun or how a near moon and sun have the same phases for the entire world to see.  How does the sun travel twice as far along the Tropic of Capricorn then Tropic of Cancer yet its velocity remains the same?  How does the verifiable ISS or whatever it is fly above us at incredible verifiable speeds in its serpentine path only possible on a globe?  The issues of the stars above us are even less explained on the bipolar map as the latitudes on the bipolar map don’t work with star navigation.  The list goes on and on.  At some point, blind faith to Rowbotham’s book isn’t enough and your flat earth has to answer real world observations.

What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.

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Offline stack

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2018, 06:49:01 AM »
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seems to the only options in a flight drom Hololulu to Brisbane on this map

What map? No one has studied the matter.

You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.

Therein lies the crux of the matter.  Those flights exist.  I myself flew back and forth from Los Angeles to Melbourne twice this year over the Pacific. We never flew over land. The flight lasted 14 hours heading SW and returning NE. I know we were flying those directions as we were chasing the setting sun and then nearing Australia with the rising sun chasing us.  That map is impossible, indefensible, it has more problems then the other flat earth maps.  You still have never had an answer for the path of moon and sun or how a near moon and sun have the same phases for the entire world to see.  How does the sun travel twice as far along the Tropic of Capricorn then Tropic of Cancer yet its velocity remains the same?  How does the verifiable ISS or whatever it is fly above us at incredible verifiable speeds in its serpentine path only possible on a globe?  The issues of the stars above us are even less explained on the bipolar map as the latitudes on the bipolar map don’t work with star navigation.  The list goes on and on.  At some point, blind faith to Rowbotham’s book isn’t enough and your flat earth has to answer real world observations.

What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.

Correct, there is no map. Apparently, there is no bipolar model either. There's basically nothing to criticize. What semblance of a notion it may be doesn't know where the land masses are, can't predict nor pattern humanity's everyday observations of the sun, or moon for that matter, with any specificity. Not even loosely. So yeah, it's hard to successfully criticize a model that doesn't exist.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2018, 06:58:07 AM »
What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.
Well, that's obviously nonsense.
Clearly there are pretty much an infinite number of possible flat earth maps so it is impossible to assess every one.
What you CAN do, and has been done, is show that from the known distance between various places there is no possible way to construct a flat earth map. I believe this is reductio ad absurdum, assume a flat earth, try and construct a map from known distances between places and plot them on a flat plane. If you find you can't (and you do find that, I've seen the results of people trying to do so) then you must conclude that the earth cannot be flat.

Or you could instead just claim crazy things like no-one knows the distance from New York to Paris, the entire global transport and good industry don't know how far places are apart or how fast their various modes of transport go.  :D
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Curiosity File

Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2018, 07:00:30 AM »
There's a number of phenomena that shows the angle of raise or set of sun and moon that can be observed by the naked eye.
One that was mentioned here was the sun setting below the clouds casting a shadow or sun light on the bottom of the clouds along with a picture of Mt Rainier i believe it was where the sun hit the mountain and cast a shadow dozens of miles to the east across the bottom of the clouds. I've witnessed this phenomena myself in many different places throughout the Pacific coast mountain range where I live. I also travel a lot. I've seen this in the Cascades and Sierra Nevada mountains also.

Here's something to think about. My brothers wife is a stewardess for commercial airlines and has traveled all around the world for the past 30 years. She has described chasing the sun and observed the sun from above the clouds descend below the clouds as it sets. Then upon descent to land seeing the sun once the plane descended below the clouds before it dipped below the horizon.

I leave my house in the evening high above the cloud layer and watch the sun vanish below the clouds. Within 6 to 8 miles I descend 2,500 to 3,000 feet in elevation in less than 15 minutes which puts me below the cloud layer and brings the sun back into view. I see it above then below the clouds.

I also can see the bottom of aircraft being illuminated by the sun after the sun has dipped below the vanishing point of the horizon at dusk.

There are picture of Contrails casting shadows on the clouds above them from the sun shining underneath them from the angle of sun set. I've also witnessed this phenomena my self. 

We can only conclude that the sun dips below the elevation of clouds and aircraft in order for us to physically witness these events.       

       
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 07:05:34 AM by Curiosity File »

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2018, 07:37:38 AM »
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seem to the only options in a flight from Honolulu to Brisbane on this map.

What map? No one has studied the matter.
What do you mean with "No one has studied the matter"?
Aircraft flights across the Pacific Ocean are very commonplace yet "No one has studied the matter" of how these might fit with your suggested continental layouts. That seems a serious deficiency.

But you ask "What map?" Your map! The one that you have so often claimed as the official continental layout of the Zetetic Society.
Your own Wiki gives these two and it makes little difference which you close:

The Bi-polar Model reflects the work of many Zeteticists
who diverged from Rowbotham's work
         

Preferred variant of the Bi-polar map of Flat Earth
proponent sandokhan

And if the earth is not a Globe there must be an "edge" where Globe is "cut" to form the flat earth representation, be it at the South Pole or in some other location.
The earth has been "circumnavigated" in virtually every direction including:
  • under "person power" alone, within a few degrees of the equator,
  • via both poles by sea and land and by air and
  • as in the Vendée Globe races circumnavigating the earth including circling Antarctica.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
You will need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment.
Why would I "need to study every possible continental combination, and address every possibility from jet streams to magnetic declination, to provide a valid assessment"?

Then why would "magnetic declination" even be relevant? Aircraft these days use Inertial Navigation Systems integrated with the GNSS for absolute positioning.
And while they still have gyro stabilised magnetic compasses these take little part in long-distance navigation and are mainly used locally.

I have a perfectly good "map" of the earth and all of these air routes fit onto "my map" quite well - of course, it only "works" when wrapped around a Globe.

Offline JCM

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2018, 12:55:32 PM »

What map are you talking about? There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model. No map has been studied. Until you have assessed every single possibility you have not successfully criticized anything.

You just used the bipolar map to defend the sunset angle question regarding the traditional flat earth map. It literally took 2 seconds to point out it has much bigger problems, there is no way to puzzle piece those continents around to make that work.  The next argument may as well be an spherical hollow Earth with the Sun in the middle notion hasn’t been fleshed out either to someone’s satisfaction despite its obvious ridiculousness. 


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2018, 01:24:50 PM »
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seem to the only options in a flight from Honolulu to Brisbane on this map.

What map? No one has studied the matter.
What do you mean with "No one has studied the matter"?
Aircraft flights across the Pacific Ocean are very commonplace yet "No one has studied the matter" of how these might fit with your suggested continental layouts. That seems a serious deficiency.

But you ask "What map?" Your map! The one that you have so often claimed as the official continental layout of the Zetetic Society.

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

You can ask Sandokan what he believes on this topic, if he is asserting a model or a map, but I have never claimed that there was a map, and neither have the Zetetic societies. The particular illustration is an example only, posted by someone long ago.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2018, 02:32:02 PM »

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

If it's a model and there is no map, then what is the evidence for this declarative statement?

... when it is summer for the Southern Hemiplane. The sun is traveling around the South Pole at that time. Looking Westwards, not only is the sun left of the equator, the sun is also curving around the South Pole.

How can we test that? What observation does the model predict that we can check?

I'm proposing that a no flat earth MODEL will produce consistent predictions of the sunset trajectory, but when I show you examples of the flaws, you blame it on the map. So, if the model is beyond the reach of verification or falsification due to lack of a map, what good is it? What makes it anything more than whimsy?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2018, 02:48:17 PM »
I have an idea. Map or no map, we know for certain what locations are south of the Tropic of Capricorn and north of the Tropic of Cancer, correct? And which locations are between the Tropics too. We may not know their relative distances and angles from each other is what I'm hearing. But latitudes values aren't in question.  Or are they?

I think we can work the bipolar model without a map to test it against this sunrise/set trajectory observation if the above is agreed upon.


----

Edit: I can't find a TFES wiki page on the Bi-polar model. The only mention of a bi-polar flat earth model I could find is on the Flat Earth Maps page.

On the Circumnavigation page, it says "The Flat Earth is laid out like a North-Azimuthal projection. The North Pole is at the center while Antarctica is at the rim. The continents are spread out around the North Pole." And a representative image of the monopole map is shown.

There is no bipolar map. There is a bipolar model.

Where is this model outlined?

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

HAD a bi-polar model?
Can you help me out, Tom, and cite the source that is what TFES wiki model currently considers the preferred model?

Edit: I think I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes


And Sandokahn's "FAQ" from 2010
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 08:21:48 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2018, 01:37:39 AM »
Edit: I think I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes


The dome on that thing would have an interesting shape  ::)
Where does Earth Not a Globe say that all beliefs contrary to the Scriptures are necessarily wrong?  ???

Curiosity File

Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2018, 03:12:38 AM »
Edit: I think I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes


The dome on that thing would have an interesting shape  ::)

Also is there a bridge over or a tunnel through the ice wall where the two halves of the bi-pole flat earth connect?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2018, 03:43:18 AM »
Quote from: Rabinoz
These seem to the only options in a flight from Honolulu to Brisbane on this map.

What map? No one has studied the matter.
What do you mean with "No one has studied the matter"?
Aircraft flights across the Pacific Ocean are very commonplace yet "No one has studied the matter" of how these might fit with your suggested continental layouts. That seems a serious deficiency.

But you ask "What map?" Your map! The one that you have so often claimed as the official continental layout of the Zetetic Society.

The Zetetic societies had a Bi-Polar model. If you read the literature it is illustrated as two circles sitting on top of each other. There is no map.

I have made sure to specify "model," not "map".

A model near enough to defines the continental layout or at least severely constrains it.

And Zetetes did publish a basic layout as Bobby Shaft posts in:
I found it. On pg 30 of "The Sea-Earth Globe" by Zetetes
Once you've gone that far you have to have a boundary (Ice-Wall or whatever) around part of the earth.

This defines an uncrossable line, yet as I claimed before expeditions, circumnavigations, commercial air routes and ocean yacht race have been over almost any boundary you might define.

Rowbotham's North Pole centred model was very smartly chosen for his day because Antarctica was unexplored and there were no crossings of the boundary he created but now even that has been disproven.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2018, 06:07:32 PM »
The dome on that thing would have an interesting shape  ::)

The dome. That's another piece of ambiguity in the theory, or model, or whatever we call it. Is a dome part of it or not? The publication from which that diagram came refers to a dome and the effects of its aetherial flow in order to explain certain visual phenomena of sun rise and sun set that needs explaining in this particular bi-polar "model."

But I was watching a conversation take place here in another topic in which the stance of TFES is that there is no dome. This is not consensus, of course, and there are FE proponents here who do hold to a dome in their own flat earth models (i.e. Sandokahn, for one), but a celestial dome doesn't appear in the TFES wiki.

So in seems to stand to reason that the bi-polar model espoused by that publication with that diagram is a dome-based model. What's needed here is a no-dome bi-polar model, and it will need to formulate its own explanations for certain sun observations.


Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2018, 04:25:35 PM »
wave is answer.
Sun's motion is wave.

Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2018, 11:35:02 PM »
Distance to the sun is about 6,700km.
I'll show you the video later.
Video is comfortable for me because of the language barrier.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2018, 11:40:43 PM »
Will it have anything to do with explaining the rise/descent angles of the sun?

I ask because I don't understand the connection of your previous video posted above to the topic at hand.

 

Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2018, 06:40:20 AM »
Will it have anything to do with explaining the rise/descent angles of the sun?

I ask because I don't understand the connection of your previous video posted above to the topic at hand.
Of course. wave principle appears as phenomena, like sun and moon, etc.
Angles of the sun is also.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2018, 02:46:20 PM »
Of course. wave principle appears as phenomena, like sun and moon, etc.
Angles of the sun is also.

The explanation still eludes me. It's probably a language barrier, so I look forward to the video.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Angle of Sunrise/Sunset
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2018, 03:30:09 PM »
I would point out that there is no bi-polar map. There is only a bi-polar model. Literally zero work has gone into creating one. That is just a sample that someone had found. The orientation of the continents and nature of the magnetic field lines is a matter yet to be studied.

I disagree. I have personally travled around North America, South America, and Europe. I have verified that our assumptions about the locations of some of the continents are correct, known, and accurate.

Do you honestly not know that if you drive south from Texas you will get to South America?

Europe is North of Africa.
Europe is West of Asia.
China is on the eastern part of Asia.
Japan is an Island off the east coast of Asia.