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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2017, 03:45:19 AM »
I don't see why we should have to disprove perspective rules which were never proven to occur.
You’ve got that backwards.  You don’t need to DISPROVE anything; you need to PROVE that perspective does what is required to make the sun appear to drop to the horizon, then get cut in half by the horizon, then get cut down to just the top sliver and finally go away.  Nobody on the RE side thinks that perspective is magic.

The sunset is emperically observed to occur. It is on the party claiming that the sun would operate on a special kind of continuous math to demonstrate that claim.

There is nothing special about continuous maths. That is the normal type of mathematics. If you think the sunset is an effect of some unusual noncontinuos math, then the burden of proof is on you.

Likewise, perspective changes size and speed, but never changes something from being  above to below. If you think it does, then it’s up to you to prove something that is out of the norm.

You can’t (with any credibility) say the sunset is due to perspective and refer to ancient scriptures which are clearly wrong and then not follow up with a proper explanation.

Our claim merely extends to "the sunset happens" and "the sun seems to travel constantly across the sky". Both of these are emperical conclusions and are unquestionable.

YOU are asserting that the sunset can't move constantly or get to the horizon based on certain continuous mathematical rules. It is up to YOU to demonstrate YOUR claims.


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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2017, 03:56:49 AM »
Well math works to describe everyday physical relationships and has for thousands of years. If you want proof it works, it does not get any simpler than that. As far as perspective working, all it requires is that light travels in a straight line. If you wish to say it does otherwise, that is up to you to prove.

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2017, 05:41:56 AM »
Sunset happens ! At last, something we agree on.  So, you’ve gone from sunset is caused by waves and whatnot, to it radiates in all directions (contrary to your Wiki) but you still can’t see it all the time despite it being well above the horizon all the time, according to basic trigonometry (or are you smarter than Pythagoras?) to sunset just happens, which proves the earth is flat.

There are so many holes and inconsistencies in your arguments, I don’t really know where to start.  So how about this.  On a round earth sunset is easily explained as you rotate from the lit side to the shadow side.  This is my proof that the world is round and spinning. 

According to you, the sun is following a circular track roughly 6000 miles in diameter.  Its 3000 miles high.  It radiates in all directions so I can still see it at its further point, albeit a bit dimmer than during the ‘day’.  It’s 26 degrees above the horizon, using basic trigonometry.  This is its furthest point and lowest declination.

This is my disproof that the sun can set on a flat earth.  Remember, I’m using your ‘facts’ and basic trig which traces its origins back to ancient Egypt.  I don’t want to get distracted into the validity of trigonometry as its fundamental in modern maths.  Here’s a history, just to avoid you using this as a distraction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trigonometry

So, demonstrate how the sun can set on a flat earth.  No referring me back to your other literature.  I want it in your words.

Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2017, 11:25:18 AM »
I don't see why we should have to disprove perspective rules which were never proven to occur. If you are claiming that perspective operates on continuous rules, that is on you to show.

Not sure if this was a response to me? As I said: my experiment doesn't rely on any pre-established 'rules'. In it you establish to your own satisfaction that circles only appear circular when viewed on-axis, or from a position where the off-axis distance is small compared to the distance away. Since star-trails appear circular, we must therefore be viewing them from a position where the off-axis distance is small compared to the distance of the star. That being the case, on a flat earth Polaris would be directly or almost directly overhead everywhere on earth. Which it isn't. Ergo the earth cannot be flat.

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2017, 04:19:53 PM »
I don't see why we should have to disprove perspective rules which were never proven to occur.
You’ve got that backwards.  You don’t need to DISPROVE anything; you need to PROVE that perspective does what is required to make the sun appear to drop to the horizon, then get cut in half by the horizon, then get cut down to just the top sliver and finally go away.  Nobody on the RE side thinks that perspective is magic.

The sunset is emperically observed to occur. It is on the party claiming that the sun would operate on a special kind of continuous math to demonstrate that claim.

There is nothing special about continuous maths. That is the normal type of mathematics. If you think the sunset is an effect of some unusual noncontinuos math, then the burden of proof is on you.

Likewise, perspective changes size and speed, but never changes something from being  above to below. If you think it does, then it’s up to you to prove something that is out of the norm.

You can’t (with any credibility) say the sunset is due to perspective and refer to ancient scriptures which are clearly wrong and then not follow up with a proper explanation.

Our claim merely extends to "the sunset happens" and "the sun seems to travel constantly across the sky". Both of these are emperical conclusions and are unquestionable.

YOU are asserting that the sunset can't move constantly or get to the horizon based on certain continuous mathematical rules. It is up to YOU to demonstrate YOUR claims.

I didn't say EITHER of those things.   I said that those things can't happen IF THE EARTH IS FLAT.    They are perfectly possible - and EASILY demonstrated using math and basic physics in the Round Earth.

All I have to do (and I've done it repeatedly) is to show that sunsets can't work in the Flat Earth and that the flat earth hypothesis fails to describe how sunsets happen, how the sun doesn't get smaller at sunset, how clouds are lit from below at sunset, how the timing and direction of sunsets would be different than they really are...MANY other things.

If those provable claims cannot be shown to be false - then your batshit crazy flat earth hypothesis is disproven.

Where is YOUR proof?    You can't even explain how the photons get from the sun to my eye at sunset...which is really the most basic thing.   You keep throwing up nonsense about Zeno's paradox and continuous versus descrete math and saying completely stupid things like that diagrams can't represent reality.

These are all signs of a desperate man who has run out of real arguments and is now scraping the bottom of the barrel hoping for some dregs of ideas that can discount the tsunami of disproofs that have been presented here over the last 4 months.

You've lost Tom.

Even your own people have stopped backing you up.   When was the last time a Flat Earther actually agreed with you?
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2017, 06:02:23 PM »
Well math works to describe everyday physical relationships and has for thousands of years. If you want proof it works, it does not get any simpler than that. As far as perspective working, all it requires is that light travels in a straight line. If you wish to say it does otherwise, that is up to you to prove.

The Ancient Greek continuous math only works to describe physical relationships if you round the variables and the results -- that is, if you assume a discrete universe.

It has not been shown what kind of math perspective adheres to, and so we should not assume hypothetical concepts such as such as "this math shows that things should be an infinite distance away at the horizon." It must first be shown that the perspective lines operate on a continuous rule set before such a conclusion can be made.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 06:47:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2017, 06:55:38 PM »
Sunset happens ! At last, something we agree on.  So, you’ve gone from sunset is caused by waves and whatnot, to it radiates in all directions (contrary to your Wiki) but you still can’t see it all the time despite it being well above the horizon all the time, according to basic trigonometry (or are you smarter than Pythagoras?) to sunset just happens, which proves the earth is flat.

You have a lot wrong there. Those are all part of the same explanation, and you are interpreting the Wiki wrongly.

Also, no one said anything about it proving the earth is flat.

Quote
There are so many holes and inconsistencies in your arguments, I don’t really know where to start.  So how about this.  On a round earth sunset is easily explained as you rotate from the lit side to the shadow side.  This is my proof that the world is round and spinning. 

According to you, the sun is following a circular track roughly 6000 miles in diameter.  Its 3000 miles high.  It radiates in all directions so I can still see it at its further point, albeit a bit dimmer than during the ‘day’.  It’s 26 degrees above the horizon, using basic trigonometry.  This is its furthest point and lowest declination.

This is my disproof that the sun can set on a flat earth.  Remember, I’m using your ‘facts’ and basic trig which traces its origins back to ancient Egypt.  I don’t want to get distracted into the validity of trigonometry as its fundamental in modern maths.  Here’s a history, just to avoid you using this as a distraction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trigonometry

You are assuming that perspective operates on the basic rules of trigonometry. Trigonometry and Geometry assume a lot of things about the nature of infinity and has a continuous nature that has not really been demonstrated to translate to the real world.

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So, demonstrate how the sun can set on a flat earth.  No referring me back to your other literature.  I want it in your words.

I have given you my words. We observe that the sunset happens, therefore it does. That is a direct demonstration that the sunset happens.

Your response is that "according to this model, the sunset cannot happen"

Our response is "before we consider this, please show that this model is accurate"

The conversation usually ends there. The empiricist held an unquestionable truth, while his opponent fought with a questionable hypothesis. Who won and who lost?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 07:13:01 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2017, 07:05:39 PM »
Tom, YOU are the one who wants perspective to do something different to the sun and moon than it does for everything else in human experience.  That means YOU have to show that it does.

The rest of us all agree that perspective does TWO things: it makes receding above-ground objects (birds, airplanes, clouds, etc) appear lower in the sky, AND it makes them appear smaller, at the same time and by the same ratio.  You (by your perpetual reference to ENaG) seem to think that for ONLY the sun and moon, perspective can make them appear lower in the sky but preserve their apparent size.  That’s on you to prove. 

“Look at them, they appear to rise and set, the same size as when they’re at zenith, therefore it happens” is not proof.  That’s the same category of “proof” as a magician claiming he ACTUALLY caught between his teeth the bullet ACTUALLY fired from the pistol.  We all know that’s an illusion.  Just like the earth being flat is an illusion, although not a human-devised, attempt-to-deceive illusion.  It’s a matter of sheer size and scale.  On the round earth, we are ever so very slightly closer to the noonday sun then we are to the rising or setting sun, multiples with lots of zeros after the decimal place.  This is not enough different to see a change in apparent size.  On a flat earth, however, we are whole number multiples closer, which would have a huge impact on the apparent size in the sky of the sun. 
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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2017, 07:14:15 PM »
It must first be shown that the perspective lines operate on continuous rules before such a conclusion can be made.

Tom, there is zero evidence that perspective is anything but continuous. I've pointed out repeatedly that any discontinuous nature of the universe is at such a small scale that it plays no role in our daily world. Second, this discrete nature has never been proven in a lab as the sizes we are talking about are FAR smaller than anything we can detect. Given that it can't be proven in a lab and is only theoretical, you can go ahead and stop using it because you NEVER accept any evidence from the RE side that isn't lab provable.
Size of an atom ~ 0.0000000001 meters
Planck's length = 0.000000000000000000000000000000000016 meters

We both know why you're playing this non-continuous universe thing. Linear perspective destroys your notion of how the sun sets. if there is not curve or warping of space, the sun can't set on a flat Earth.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2017, 07:21:46 PM »
Tom, YOU are the one who wants perspective to do something different to the sun and moon than it does for everything else in human experience.  That means YOU have to show that it does.

If you can show us where we can see the hidden pockets of infinity in the perspective lines I will be willing to concede that it is a concept rooted in human experience.

As it is right now, when we see the perspective lines touch you tell us that it is an illusion and quote some math for us. Your argument isn't really based on "human experience".

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“Look at them, they appear to rise and set, the same size as when they’re at zenith, therefore it happens” is not proof.

Actually, it is proof that it happens.

You assume we should be so very concerned with coming up with the math necessary to make that happen. You think we should strive to come up with hypothesis, when we do not really believe that things should be explained or decided on based on a hypothesis. Unless the entire ruleset of such a mathematical model can be discovered empirically, you will not see us put forward the type of disgusting hypothetical models you approximate in.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 07:38:41 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2017, 07:47:02 PM »
As it is right now, when we see the perspective lines touch you tell us that it is an illusion and quote some math for us. Your argument isn't really based on "human experience".

Please provide proof that "perspective lines" touch. I've been around awhile - never seen it in the real world.

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Unless the entire ruleset of such a mathematical model can be discovered empirically, you will not see us put forward the type of disgusting hypothetical models you approximate in.

And yet your entire theory falls on it's face without the imaginary, completely hypothetical, and totally unempirical force that magically accelerates the Earth at a steady rate. Your double-standards are astonishing.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline gizmo910

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2017, 08:28:35 PM »
Just curious Tom, how do you empirically prove the Earth continues beyond the horizon?
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Offline 3DGeek

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2017, 08:39:55 PM »
Tom, YOU are the one who wants perspective to do something different to the sun and moon than it does for everything else in human experience.  That means YOU have to show that it does.

If you can show us where we can see the hidden pockets of infinity in the perspective lines I will be willing to concede that it is a concept rooted in human experience.



The argument doesn't depend on any infinities - the diagram uses simple finite numbers.  I could make a scale model of it very easily.

What is wrong with this diagram?   It simply shows where the photons MUST be travelling.  We agree that they go in a straight line.  We agree that there are sunsets.   But if we agree that there are sunsets and that light travels in straight lines - then the only thing wrong with this diagram is that it shows the earth as being flat and the sun being within a few thousand miles away instead of a few million.

The diagram doesn't assume a continuous or discrete universe - it just shows where the photons travel.

Why won't you address this?   Are you scared to?   Does it destroy your world-view?   It damned well should.

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As it is right now, when we see the perspective lines touch you tell us that it is an illusion and quote some math for us. Your argument isn't really based on "human experience".

Sure it is!   There is the sun - it's behind that tree that's on the horizon.   This is only the case because the world isn't flat.

Quote
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“Look at them, they appear to rise and set, the same size as when they’re at zenith, therefore it happens” is not proof.

Actually, it is proof that it happens.

Indeed it is Tom.  There are sunsets and sunrises (and moonsets and moonrises and Vega-sets and Vega-rises).   But if light travels in straight lines - then the world simply cannot be flat with the sun at finite distance.

Perspective really has nothing to do with it - that's something YOU brought up in a desperate effort to fix your broken cosmology.

You can't fix it...you just can't.

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You assume we should be so very concerned with coming up with the math necessary to make that happen. You think we should strive to come up with hypothesis, when we do not really believe that things should be explained or decided on based on a hypothesis. Unless the entire ruleset of such a mathematical model can be discovered empirically, you will not see us put forward the type of disgusting hypothetical models you approximate in.

We don't need math - the diagram is 100% convincing without math.   But math works with it too.  So do simple words talking about how those photons travel along that straight path.

We can confirm this with simple experiments - that clouds are lit from below around sunset.

You simply cannot explain these things - and the reason why is obvious.   The world is round Tom...ROUND.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2017, 08:48:16 PM »
Tom, YOU are the one who wants perspective to do something different to the sun and moon than it does for everything else in human experience.  That means YOU have to show that it does.

If you can show us where we can see the hidden pockets of infinity in the perspective lines I will be willing to concede that it is a concept rooted in human experience.



The argument doesn't depend on any infinities - the diagram uses simple finite numbers.  I could make a scale model of it very easily.

What is wrong with this diagram?   It simply shows where the photons MUST be travelling.  We agree that they go in a straight line.  We agree that there are sunsets.   But if we agree that there are sunsets and that light travels in straight lines - then the only thing wrong with this diagram is that it shows the earth as being flat and the sun being within a few thousand miles away instead of a few million.

The diagram doesn't assume a continuous or discrete universe - it just shows where the photons travel.

Why won't you address this?   Are you scared to?   Does it destroy your world-view?   It damned well should.

I have addressed your diagram on numerous occasions. The sun will see the observer at its horizon, at 90 degrees, and that is where it will send its light. Its light is not being cast downwards. The target is forwards -- just as during sunset when we see the sun forwards.

The physics in your scene are entirely wrong. You are using a model in which it is impossible for a horizon to exist. It is impossible for railroad tracks to touch a horizon in that model. Railroad tracks touch the horizon at a finite distance away, not an infinite distance away.

The path the photons travel is STRAIGHT. The observer sees the sun at the horizon and, from the sun's perspective, the sun sees the observer at its horizon. Therefore the photons leave at a 90 degree angle from zenith and arrive at a 90 degree angle from zenith.



At sunset we see the sun at 90 degrees and the sun also sees us at 90 degrees. A laser pointer held by the observer or by the sun would be pointed at 90 degrees to hit the target.

The model you have provided is untested over long distances, makes several assumptions about perspective and infinity which have not been proven, and are contradictory to empirical reality. Your model of an infinite-distant and impossible-to-reach horizon is entirely theoretical and based on an ancient concept of a continuous universe. There is nothing to say that your model would hold up in reality.

Our experience is that the distance to the horizon is finite, that the perspective lines intersect a finite distance away. Rail road tracks travel a finite distance before meeting the horizon -- not an infinite distance as predicted by your model. Your Flat Earth model must follow reality; not make a series questionable assumptions about the nature of reality and perspective which have never been observed.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 08:55:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2017, 09:07:59 PM »
You assume we should be so very concerned with coming up with the math necessary to make that happen. You think we should strive to come up with hypothesis, when we do not really believe that things should be explained or decided on based on a hypothesis. Unless the entire ruleset of such a mathematical model can be discovered empirically, you will not see us put forward the type of disgusting hypothetical models you approximate in.

What are you taking about? You have put forth several hypotheses, among them:
- that angular velocity depends on the distance to the observer (Cessna vs Boeing, why the sun's angular velocity is constant)
- that objects past a certain distance are unobservable due to perspective lines or non continuous universe or something (why the sun sets)
- that rate of change of angular size of objects tends to zero with increasing distance (why the sun's apparent size doesn't change)
- ... Or that bright lights get bigger apparent size with distance
- That you can tell what beach you are looking at across the bay from Pacific Grove
- that parallel lines meet at or before infinity

So why do you lean on hypotheses so much if they are disgusting?

EDIT: typo
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:32:36 PM by douglips »

Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2017, 09:13:41 PM »
Who writes ' The sun will see the observer at its horizon, at 90 degrees, and that is where it will send its light. Its light is not being cast downwards'?  Complete rubbish.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2017, 09:38:00 PM »
Who writes ' The sun will see the observer at its horizon, at 90 degrees, and that is where it will send its light. Its light is not being cast downwards'?  Complete rubbish.

At sunset when the sun is at your eye level horizon, are you looking upwards or forwards? You are looking forwards, right? That is the reasoning for why the sun is casting its light forwards to reach the target from its perspective.

Under the traditional model, if the sun sent its light forward, it would totally miss the observer, but that model has not been demonstrated to reflect reality, and is contradictory to the fact that we are not looking upwards when the sun is at the horizon.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:44:46 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2017, 09:41:53 PM »
I have addressed your diagram on numerous occasions. The sun will see the observer at its horizon, at 90 degrees, and that is where it will send its light. Its light is not being cast downwards. The target is forwards -- just as during sunset when we see the sun forwards.

No - what I've just quoted above is a nonsense paragraph.

"The sun will see the observer at it's horizon"...if the Earth is flat and the sun is 3000 miles up - it doesn't HAVE a horizon.  It's rays could reach every part of the Earth were it not for your "flashlight" effect.

"...and that is where it will send it's light."...the sun isn't a sentient being...how does it know where to "send it's light"?!?

"Its light is not being cast downwards."...of course it does!  When it's sunrise for me - it's noon for someone else - and the sun must be shining light downwards.

"The target is forwards -- just as during sunset when we see the sun forwards." - where is "Forwards" for a ball that's 3,000 miles above the surface?  Do you mean "horizontally"?

These sentences may mean something to you - but honestly they read like random babble to me.

Let's break down that post you've copied from a previous thread:

The physics in your scene are entirely wrong. You are using a model in which it is impossible for a horizon to exist. It is impossible for railroad tracks to touch a horizon in that model. Railroad tracks touch the horizon at a finite distance away, not an infinite distance away.

We're not talking about infinite distances or railroad tracks...we're asking WHERE DO THE PHOTONS ACTUALLY TRAVEL TO GET FROM THE SUN TO MY EYE.   Where is that photon from one moment to the next?  (If we imagine a discrete universe) or What is the path travelled by the photon?  (If we imagine a continuous universe).

That is a mind-numbingly simple question...so why won't you answer it?

Just tell us...do they follow the blue line or the pink line or some other line?

Quote
The path the photons travel is STRAIGHT.

OK - then it's the blue line - that's a straight line from where the sun is physically located to my eye - we lay out a virtual straight-edged ruler from the sun to my eye and that's where the photons go...that is the blue line - and it obviously completely misses the tree at the horizon.  If the tree is 6 miles away - then the light ray crosses it at an altitude of 3 miles and cannot be BLOCKED by the tree.  So if everything works the way you claim - then there can be no sunrises or sunsets.   

But clearly there ARE sunrises and sunsets - so there must be something wrong with your idea of where the sun physically is and/or your idea of the shape of the Earth.  Hence the earth is not flat.   QED.

But then you say:

Quote
The observer sees the sun at the horizon and, from the sun's perspective, the sun sees the observer at its horizon. Therefore the photons leave at a 90 degree angle from zenith and arrive at a 90 degree angle from zenith.

So you don't tell me the complete path of the light here - just how it starts out (horizontally) and how it ends up (horizontally) - but you carefully avoid saying where it goes between the start and finish.

If they leave the sun "horizontally" (which I think is what you're saying here) - then the photons will travel along at the same altitude above the earth and never reach the ground.   They can't arrive at my eye horizontally or they'd have to travel on curved path or take a 3,000 mile dog-leg someplace.

So then you give us this diagram:



In the top half, we have a man who is clearly about 3,000 miles tall looking at a sun that is burning a damned great hole in the ground about 6,000 miles away.

This is CLEARLY not a diagram about the real path of actual photons in the situation we're describing - it's like a photograph taken of the scene from the point of view of the man - drawn sideways and with a very weird scale...I have no clue what this is telling us.

The bottom half of the diagram - where (for some weird reason) you've tilted the Earth to the right - isn't correct either.   In the real world geometry, the sun's rays make a steeper angle to the ground than the rays of light from the top leaves of the tree.   So this diagram represents some kind of "wishful thinking" on your part.  But also, the sun's rays aren't leaving the sun at 90 degrees to it's zenith (you mean "horizontally" - right?)...clearly the rays are sloping downwards...which contradicts what you just told us in words.

Also, suppose we wait a minute or two until the sun is halfway below the horizon and the rays of light are passing by the base of the tree instead of through the leaves?  How does your diagram look then?

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At sunset we see the sun at 90 degrees and the sun also sees us at 90 degrees. A laser pointer held by the observer or by the sun would be pointed at 90 degrees to hit the target.

Yes - this is what should happen - and in RET (where the ground curves downwards and the sun is 93 million miles away) - that's exactly what would happen.  But with your Flat Earth hypothesis, that can't happen - the sun is still 3,000 miles above the ground and a horizontal ray will just stay at the same height above the ground and passes over my head at an altitude of 3,000 miles...so that doesn't work.

Quote
The model you have provided is untested over long distances, makes several assumptions about perspective and infinity which have not been proven, and are contradictory to empirical reality. Your model of an infinite-distant and impossible-to-reach horizon is entirely theoretical and based on an ancient concept of a continuous universe. There is nothing to say that your model would hold up in reality.

Well, light travels in straight lines - over all distances - right?   My diagram makes no reference whatever to either perspective of infinities.   All of the numbers are nice simple, finite values - and we're not talking about images being formed or anything complicated like that - just about where the photons physically travel to reach my eyeball.

You just told us that they leave the sun travelling horizontally - and arrive at my eyes travelling horizontally - but you fail to explain how the ray descends through 3,000 miles while travelling horizontally and in a straight line.

This is where your ideas fail.

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Our experience is that the distance to the horizon is finite, that the perspective lines intersect a finite distance away. Rail road tracks travel a finite distance before meeting the horizon -- not an infinite distance as predicted by your model. Your Flat Earth model must follow reality; not make a series questionable assumptions about the nature of reality and perspective which have never been observed.

We disagree about that - but I'm not talking about pictures of things - so perspective is simply not relevant.   I'm just asking how the suns rays can travel in a straight line from 3,000 miles up - past a tree at zero altitude and into my eye at zero altitude without curving or taking a dog-leg.

This is NOT a difficult question - and if you believe in FET - you need to come up with an answer or we've conclusively proven that the flat earth cannot exist.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2017, 09:44:50 PM »
Who writes ' The sun will see the observer at its horizon, at 90 degrees, and that is where it will send its light. Its light is not being cast downwards'?  Complete rubbish.

At sunset when the sun is at your eye level horizon, are you looking upwards or forwards? The answer is that you are looking forwards; and that is the reasoning for why the sun is casting its light forwards to reach the observer from its perspective.
Assuming I am on the coast looking west over the sea I will be looking down slightly at the horizon.

Saying casting its light forward to reach the observer is the most odd way of describing the sun.  Why to you persist is this quaint way of writing which nobody else uses.Is it to confuse on purpose?

Your use of the words we and our imply more then yourself, we know it is just you.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 09:46:41 PM by inquisitive »

Rama Set

Re: What is and isn't proof
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2017, 11:33:35 PM »
Well math works to describe everyday physical relationships and has for thousands of years. If you want proof it works, it does not get any simpler than that. As far as perspective working, all it requires is that light travels in a straight line. If you wish to say it does otherwise, that is up to you to prove.

The Ancient Greek continuous math only works to describe physical relationships if you round the variables and the results -- that is, if you assume a discrete universe.

Continuous math is a thing you made up. It doesn’t mean anything. Also, how do you know the need to round isn’t due to imprecise rulers rather than the math?  What is your evidence that it is the math that is the problem and not humans?  Have you done any controlled experiments? What was your set up? Who has verified these results?

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It has not been shown what kind of math perspective adheres to, and so we should not assume hypothetical concepts such as such as "this math shows that things should be an infinite distance away at the horizon." It must first be shown that the perspective lines operate on a continuous rule set before such a conclusion can be made.

First off, the world doesn’t adhere to math. Math is a tool we use to quantify the world. Second, it can be shown from everyday experience that our interpretation of perspective on earth works. I did work on optics and perspective in grade 11.