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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2018, 10:06:06 PM »
It seems that Tom Bishop has just one remaining exception with this experiment: the camera is not vertically centered.

Tom, if the camera is vertically centered and you can count the same number of pixels above and below the line would you accept this as a valid experiment and acknowledge the results?
If he says yes, then I'll just crop the photos so that the view line is always in the exact center.

I'd rather he understand why the camera pitch doesn't change the level alignment. I think, maybe, he's thinking in terms of points along a line, whereas this is a planar problem. I don't know.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2018, 10:13:44 PM »
It seems that Tom Bishop has just one remaining exception with this experiment: the camera is not vertically centered.

Tom, if the camera is vertically centered and you can count the same number of pixels above and below the line would you accept this as a valid experiment and acknowledge the results?
If he says yes, then I'll just crop the photos so that the view line is always in the exact center.

I'd rather he understand why the camera pitch doesn't change the level alignment. I think, maybe, he's thinking in terms of points along a line, whereas this is a planar problem. I don't know.

I doubt cropping will satisfy Tom's objections.

I like your idea of angling the camera up and down while still keeping the view of water leveled, this will necessarily raise and lower the camera height.  This will resolve an concerns about how it will affect the water level and horizon relationship.  In practice rather than in theory.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2018, 10:44:35 PM »
An illustration:



Most of the pictures are taken from very slightly below. No wonder the straight line path is empty space.

What is so difficult to see about this?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2018, 10:45:00 PM »
Here are two pics from the other day. Both are 1600x900.

This one does not have the water level line centered vertically within the frame.

This one is "centered" with the water level line splitting the frame.

They were taken sequentially. The only difference was zoom. I didn't even change the camera pitch.


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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2018, 10:48:04 PM »
An illustration:



Most of the pictures are taken from very slightly below. No wonder the straight line path is empty space.

What is so difficult to see about this?
That's not the correct conclusion to draw from your method of photo analysis. Counting pixels from the top and bottom of the photos to find a centerline does not tell you whether or not the camera was level with another object. It only tells you how the object was framed.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2018, 10:50:44 PM »
Here are two pics from the other day. Both are 1600x900.

This one does not have the water level line centered vertically within the frame.

This one is "centered" with the water level line splitting the frame.

They were taken sequentially. The only difference was zoom. I didn't even change the camera pitch.

First your argument is that "no altitude leveling is required! Why should I need to do that?" and also expressed arguments of the difficulty in doing that. You also then threaten to crop some photos.

Then your next post is of a picture you took in the past where it is centered exactly.

How convenient.

That's not the correct conclusion to draw from your method of photo analysis. Counting pixels from the top and bottom of the photos to find a centerline does not tell you whether or not the camera was level with another object. It only tells you how the object was framed.

I have been assuming that your camera is leveled exactly horizontally here. If the camera were fixed in a horizontal position the pixels need to match up in frame to ensure that the center of the lens was in line with the objects. You are right. I have been assuming that the camera was exactly horizontal. I was wrong to assume too much. If you are just tilting the camera willy nilly, there could be several issues with the leveling, enough that a pixel count is insufficient.

How am I supposed to know how much you are tilting your camera at and the altitude of the center of the lens?

Regardless, the illustration I have provided shows that this is a very sensitive experiment.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:05:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2018, 11:09:29 PM »
First your argument is that "no altitude leveling is required! Why should I need to do that?" …
You've attributed something to me in quotes. Where did I say this?

I think I communicated that altitude leveling IS required. Both the water levels and the camera MUST be level. No looking up at the water levels. No looking down at the water levels. They must be level.

What's not required if having the camera oriented perpendicular to that plane. I can tilt it down. But that's not looking down at the water levels. The camera is still at the same height. I can tilt up, but that's not looking up at the water levels. The camera is still at the same height as the water levels.


Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2018, 11:11:21 PM »
It is simply not necessary to take the pitch of the camera into account, as long as the picture taken includes the relevant parts, ie the horizon (and those pictures show a reasonable horizon for sure.)

Let’s use Toms current favourite, the Bishop Jellybeans If you line up the jellybeans, and look at floor level along them, they will all line up, and superimpose. Or are in Transit. That is his statement and i guess he will need to stick to that.

Now without moving your head (camera) from the plane of the jellybeans, (the floor) and glance up at a point a few degrees above the far jellybean. Do they come out of alignment? Of course not. Now do the same, moving your eyes only, (camera lens)  glance down slightly at as point a few degrees below the jellybeans. Are they still in alignment or transit? Of course they are.

All, you have done is tilt the camera lens (eye) on the axis of the plane, and altered the angle of the lens slightly, allowing you to focus slightly above or below the jellybeans. They are still in alignment or transit, they have not moved, and niether has what you see (apart from more of what is above or below the jellybeans)

There is no way in that experiment to get the water in the nearest tube to align with the water in the furthest tube AND align with the horizon, as the horizon is on a different plane.

You can always get the level of 2 elements to align, but never the 3.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:13:17 PM by Tontogary »

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2018, 11:15:29 PM »
…and also expressed arguments of the difficulty in doing that.
Tom.  You crisscross things I say all the time.

What I expressed difficulty in doing was getting the CUBE setup LEVEL.  And that was ONLY for the usage of its LINES OF PERSPECTIVE.

Somehow, you've taken that and conflated it with matching the level of the CAMERA with the level of the WATER in the TUBES.

Getting the cube level is hard, but it's immaterial to the water level measurement.
Getting the camera at the same height as the water level needs to be careful, but it's not hard.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #209 on: May 16, 2018, 11:18:51 PM »


Sure. I can agree with that. I have been assuming that your camera was horizontal. In that case, if you are just tilting it at your pleasure, then the number of pixels doesn't really mean much.

Clearly, this is a very sensitive experiment. Clearly, there is some question on whether the camera is exactly leveled. I moved the camera down by one pixel in my last illustration and it created a huge gap in the background.

If not pixels, since you are tilting the camera willy nilly, how can we know where things are positioned?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #210 on: May 16, 2018, 11:19:04 PM »
You also then threaten to crop some photos.

Then your next post is of a picture you took in the past where it is centered exactly.

A. I didn't crop the photo
B. Even if I did, it wouldn't matter.

I can "crop" the photo by aiming the camera or crop it in edit. The amount of space above and below vertical centerline is not an indicator of camera height.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #211 on: May 16, 2018, 11:26:08 PM »
I have been assuming that your camera is leveled exactly horizontally here. If the camera were fixed in a horizontal position the pixels need to match up in frame to ensure that the center of the lens was in line with the objects. You are right. I have been assuming that the camera was exactly horizontal. I was wrong to assume too much. If you are just tilting the camera willy nilly, there could be several issues with the leveling, enough that a pixel count is insufficient.

How am I supposed to know how much you are tilting your camera at and the altitude of the center of the lens?

Regardless, the illustration I have provided shows that this is a very sensitive experiment.
No, you haven't.

Why does the camera have to be horizontal for this experiment? Why do you need to know the tilt (pitch)?

You don't. It's a planar problem. Is the camera lens in the same plane as that of the water level? And does that match the plane of the horizon.

I don't have to have the camera horizontal in all planes, vertical through horizontal. Just the horizontal. (Not even the horizontal. I'm typing too furious. It's the camera's elevation that's of critical importance.) I can pitch, roll and yaw the camera, but as long as the height of the camera is at the same elevation as the water level and that plane is in the field of view, we've got a good setup.

Seeing the two water tubes' water level line up is the indicator the camera is at the same level plane. Counting pixels is above/below vertical centerline is nonsense.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:28:08 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #212 on: May 16, 2018, 11:31:40 PM »


Sure. I can agree with that. I have been assuming that your camera was horizontal. In that case, if you are just tilting it at your pleasure, then the number of pixels doesn't really mean much. 

Bobby: Precisely.

Clearly, this is a very sensitive experiment. Clearly, there is some question on whether the camera is exactly leveled. I moved the camera down by one pixel in my last illustration and it created a huge gap in the background.

Bobby: Wait! What?

If not pixels, since you are tilting the camera willy nilly, how can we know where things are positioned?

Look at the water level. That's what it's there for.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #213 on: May 16, 2018, 11:34:54 PM »
Look at the water level. That's what it's there for.

And how do we know whether the camera is not very slightly above or below the water level?

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #214 on: May 16, 2018, 11:37:50 PM »
I moved the camera down by one pixel in my last illustration and it created a huge gap in the background.
Strictly speaking, pixels only measure angles. And tilting the camera down wouldn't affect the alignment of the water columns in the image.

You're gonna run out of excuses eventually. This activity by Bobby has conclusively proved that the world is round.
Recommended reading: We Have No Idea by Jorge Cham and Daniel Whiteson

Turtle Town, a game made by my brothers and their friends, is now in private beta for the demo! Feedback so far has been mostly positive. Contact me if you would like to play.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #215 on: May 16, 2018, 11:40:16 PM »
I moved the camera down by one pixel in my last illustration and it created a huge gap in the background.
Strictly speaking, pixels only measure angles. And tilting the camera down wouldn't affect the alignment of the water columns in the image.

You're gonna run out of excuses eventually. This activity by Bobby has conclusively proved that the world is round.

Bobby has already posted a picture showing that slight modifications to the altitudes makes the horizon appear in line with the string that goes through the middle. This is a sensitive experiment. The slight altitudes and alignment in the foreground all matter very much. We need to see something that shows we can trust those altitudes and the alignment.

If we can't trust a pixel method, because bobby is tilting the camera willy nilly, how do we know whether the level is of the camera is the same at the water device?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:47:46 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #216 on: May 16, 2018, 11:56:50 PM »
Look at the water level. That's what it's there for.

And how do we know whether the camera is not very slightly above or below the water level?
If the water levels in the tubes line up, the camera can't be anywhere else.

How "slightly?" Do you want me to work out a camera height delta from a setback of 36" from the water tubes within which I can't really tell if they're aligned or not?

I mean, I will. And I can then also calculate AND demonstrate the impact that would have on the sighting against a horizon line.

I'm more than will to work that out and show you. I thought I did that with my photos, but I didn't record just how much I had to raise/lower the camera to make that happen. But if that's critical to you, I welcome that input.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #217 on: May 17, 2018, 12:00:43 AM »
This activity by Bobby has conclusively proved that the world is round.
Appreciate this, but if it's proved anything yet (which I think we're still in the preliminary stage, working out kinks and challenges), it's that the horizon is not always at eye level. Whether or not that kills flat earth, I don't know.

On the other hand, if the horizon was actually always rising to eye level, there's no way the earth surface could be convex. But since we're not seeing that, convexity survives. How flatness could explain a falling horizon with rise in elevation is another story.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #218 on: May 17, 2018, 12:00:55 AM »
I moved the camera down by one pixel in my last illustration and it created a huge gap in the background.
Strictly speaking, pixels only measure angles. And tilting the camera down wouldn't affect the alignment of the water columns in the image.

You're gonna run out of excuses eventually. This activity by Bobby has conclusively proved that the world is round.

Bobby has already posted a picture showing that slight modifications to the altitudes makes the horizon appear in line with the string that goes through the middle. This is a sensitive experiment. The slight altitudes and alignment in the foreground all matter very much. We need to see something that shows we can trust those altitudes and the alignment.

If we can't trust a pixel method, because bobby is tilting the camera willy nilly, how do we know whether the level is of the camera is the same at the water device?

I thought the tilting business was explained and accepted by you? So it is not relevant.

Or a dont you understand still about the tilt, pan and the difference between that and changing the plane (altitude) of the camera? And are trying to confuse the issue by mixing the plane of the camera (altitude) and tilt of the camera?

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #219 on: May 17, 2018, 12:01:50 AM »
Bobby has already posted a picture showing that slight modifications to the altitudes makes the horizon appear in line with the string that goes through the middle. This is a sensitive experiment. The slight altitudes and alignment in the foreground all matter very much. We need to see something that shows we can trust those altitudes and the alignment.
And the point was that it misaligns the columns.
Quote
If we can't trust a pixel method, because bobby is tilting the camera willy nilly, how do we know whether the level is of the camera is the same at the water device?
Gee, it's almost like there are TWO water columns for that exact purpose!
Recommended reading: We Have No Idea by Jorge Cham and Daniel Whiteson

Turtle Town, a game made by my brothers and their friends, is now in private beta for the demo! Feedback so far has been mostly positive. Contact me if you would like to play.