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Offline Tom Bishop

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Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« on: January 14, 2015, 11:21:53 PM »
I was thinking how we would go about fundraising for a big project like the one pongo posted on the other forum. He wants to organize a $4 Million Dollar expedition to Antarctica.

As one of my personal hobbies, I operate a small marketing company. We specialize in providing innovative ways for websites to collect micropayments for their content. The dream in the idea of micropayments has always been for content creators on the internet to collect a small sum of money (ie. $0.10, $0.25, or $1) in exchange for viewing or downloading their content. Unfortunately in practice this has never really worked out for two reasons:

    1. Banks almost universally charge a minimum transfer fee which does not lend well to very small transactions. Banks that charge a flat percentage are hard to find.

    2. People are not really willing to pay money for content. It's a turnoff on the web.

This is where my marketing company comes in. Instead of charging money, we provide a way for website owners to put a popup gateway on their links so that when a user visits a page or attempts to download a file they are given the option of either paying a small fee or completing a non-intrusive offer to access the material. This offer takes between 10 seconds and one minute to complete. Examples of offers are:

    - Provide your email address for a Free $10 KFC Gift Card
    - Complete a Back to School Survey
    - Enter to win a trip to Disneyworld
    - Register an account on a Clash of Kings web strategy game
    - Provide your zip code to receive a Free Box of Cheerios

We have hundreds of such offers in our database. The pop up would give users a choice to select which offer they are most interested in. They are usually given a choice of 7 to 10 offers to select from. In exchange for their time they receive the content and the hosting website gets the money (usually around $1 an offer, or even more). Users do not actually have to buy anything on the following pages of that offer for parent website to get paid. Payment is issued to the website as soon as the fields on the first page of the offer are filled out.

Now how can we use this tool for our benefit?

Using such a tool, we can provide an alternative way for users to donate towards science experiments and expeditions. Here are a few examples for how we could use something like this:

    - We can create a kickstarter-type page and ask for donations, with the option of completing a 10 second offer on the lowest tier. This would attract passerbies who might want to put in some sort of minimal effort in appreciation or curiosity, but don't want to contribute cash money.

    - We might integrate the code into the New Post button on a certain forum, in order to provide a barrier to, say, ask a question to the Flat Earthers. If we had a dollar for every question that got posted to us over the years, we would be rich. When making a post a pop up would come up and kindly explain that our time is valuable to us, the tasks take only seconds to complete, and that proceeds will go towards an expedition to Antarctica (or whatever the current project is).

    - A timer could be set so that once every 3 days visitors are asked to complete an offer for continued access to the forum. Although, some may take issue with this.

There might be other ideas we can use this with as well. I'm not necessarily saying that we should go for the $4 Million Dollar Antarctica trip, but that it might be a feasible way to raise money in general for the various projects we want to work on. Until we have funds a lot of these things are merely pipe dreams. The goal for using this tool would be to balance intrusiveness and fundraising.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 06:22:01 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 03:09:02 AM »
I have another idea for this, but this would require the participation of Daniel. But he said that we could help out with the main site.

The vast majority of the public comes to the Flat Earth Society, visits the main page of the site, and then leaves unsatisfied. Only fraction actually registers a forums account to grill us. On the front page of the website what if we had a feature "Ask a Flat Earther"? The user asks his or her question and is prompted to complete an offer with a message explaining that our time is valuable, that the offer can be completed quickly at no cost to them, and that proceeds go towards scientific experiments and expeditions. Once the offer is completed a chat window pops up and a live operator talks to them.

We hire out indian contractors who will, for 15 cents a question, do a search of the forum, a search of ENAG, or a search of the Wiki, and provides the public with their copy-pasted answer. We take the rest of the money from the offers completed and put it into a fund. The public gets their limitless questions answered, they get to talk to a Flat Earther, and everyone is happy. Meanwhile we work on the backend to keep making answers for questions through projects such as the new ENAG book.

Thus, via the power of curiosity and public attention, The Flat Earth Society is turned into a well funded research organization.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 05:24:05 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 03:29:43 AM »
I kind of like the last example I had with this technology. It would definitely take a load off our shoulders from answering the daily basic questions, allowing us to focus on the new and interesting. In addition it would provide us the funding we need. It also provides the public service of letting the masses know about Flat Earth Theory. We mainly would need to get Daniel on board.

For transparency, there would be a way to make the reporting statistics open to the public, so that the money is more visible to ensure that nothing nefarious is going on, showing that the amount we claim to earn matches the amount we claim to have in our research fund.

If the reorganization of the Zetetic Council goes through, our meetings with the official Flat Earth Society members could even lean more towards "what should we do with the money?" where everyone can vote on a plan, or suggest one of their own.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 06:11:59 AM by Tom Bishop »

Thork

Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 07:10:26 AM »
I'm guessing by the sheer volume of words and the fact that this is in FEG, that this isn't supposed to be a joke.

they get to talk to a Flat Earther
We hire out indian contractors
I think we can pop that idea in the bin, straight away. If we aren't honest about our methods, why would anyone think we are honest in our answers?


Honestly, I'm not really feeling this idea. What are we trying to achieve? Are YOU going to go to Antarctica? Personally its a bit cold and I'd struggle to get the time off work. Ignore the method of transaction, I don't know why you'd collect money for a grand experiment? What would it prove? That the earth is flat? What experiment would achieve that?


If we were going down the route of selling people's zip codes or e-mail addresses (trading personal information for monetary gain) and harassing people to interact or divulge interests and data, why wouldn't we just put ads on the site? Get click money? Or up the price of our T-shirts 50 cents? Or ask for $50 donations when we get requests for interviews?


In summary I think there are smarter and less intrusive ways to monetise, but I'd only be interested if TFES became an official charity and used its name and power to raise money for something I'd deem worthwhile. Sending you and Pongo to Antartica may be amusing, but its not a good use of funds. Sorry Tom.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 07:26:50 AM by Thork »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 08:01:00 AM »
they get to talk to a Flat Earther
We hire out indian contractors
I think we can pop that idea in the bin, straight away. If we aren't honest about our methods, why would anyone think we are honest in our answers?

I would be happy if a machine could copy and paste the answer, but an indian contractor would have to do. If I was personally sitting there in the chat room all day I would just be copy-pasting answers anyway. Does it really matter if we hire people to do it?

They get to see the answer that a Flat Earther made. "Ask a Flat Earther" is not false advertising. I don't see why it matters who is copy-pasting the answer.

Quote
Honestly, I'm not really feeling this idea. What are we trying to achieve? Are YOU going to go to Antarctica? Personally its a bit cold and I'd struggle to get the time off work. Ignore the method of transaction, I don't know why you'd collect money for a grand experiment? What would it prove? That the earth is flat? What experiment would achieve that?

As I said, this would just be a general fund-raising tactic. I don't care about Antarctica. But I am interested in funding large projects for the community to work on. The community would decide which direction we go by democratic vote.

Many thousands of people from all over the world come to the Flat Earth Society website brimming with questions and curiosity. How could this or that work. You know the questions are endless. They look at the main site and leave confused and disappointed, with none of their questions answered. It takes an especially interested person to find the forums, register an account, and fight for a flat earther to talk to. If we could somehow turn those questions into money it would be the perfect way to fund this society.

Quote
If we were going down the route of selling people's zip codes or e-mail addresses (trading personal information for monetary gain) and harassing people to interact or divulge interests and data, why wouldn't we just put ads on the site? Get click money? Or up the price of our T-shirts 50 cents? Or ask for $50 donations when we get requests for interviews?

Banner money is insignificant compared to forcing $1 or more out of every visitor with questions, as I described. The price you get from every banner view is often on the range of 10 cents per 1000 views in a pay per view model.

We wouldn't be selling people's data. We never have their data. The companies running the offers might. But getting your information tracked somewhere that you are interested in a aerospace engineering degree from a quick "Back to School" survey you did is simply the price you need to pay if you want personalized attention..

Quote
In summary I think there are smarter and less intrusive ways to monetise, but I'd only be interested if TFES became an official charity and used its name and power to raise money for something I'd deem worthwhile. Sending you and Pongo to Antartica may be amusing, but its not a good use of funds. Sorry Tom.

If you have a better way of funding the society I would like to hear it. I can tell you straight away that banner ads can't even pay for hosting, raising t-shirt prices by 50 cents won't provide any significant funds, and reputable news organizations don't pay for interviews.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 08:24:37 AM by Tom Bishop »

Thork

Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 10:06:05 AM »
The main problem I have with this idea, Tom ... is why are we fundraising?

You just said
I don't care about Antarctica.

What do you care about? Raising money for the sake of it seems a little odd. What do you hope to gain? I can only assume you hope to get media coverage with a similar story to "hollow earth seeks to find entrance". If its purely raising our profile, I'm sure we can do that another way for similar effect without shaking down all our visitors for loose change.

If you'd said "We must redo the Bedford level experiment properly" I could at least understand that you had a specific purpose and motive. To fix a specific problem. But "I want to raise funds for something" suggests you are looking to add a process without an end goal.

As I've said before, if TFES became a registered charity and revenue went to a good cause - say a children's hospital or education materials for disadvantaged or disabled kids, I'd give you all the help my time allowed. But I can't get excited about a never ending fund to send a balloon into the stratosphere or buy a virgin galactic ticket.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 02:22:14 PM »
As I said, this would just be a general fund-raising tactic. I don't care about Antarctica. But I am interested in funding large projects for the community to work on. The community would decide which direction we go by democratic vote.
Tom, why fund large projects when there are so many small experiments that can be done for free?  For example, there have been several attempts go get the community to record the time and position of sunrise and sunset on the days of the equinox that have died due to lack of interest on the part of FE'ers.  Why try to fund a large research project when such a trivial one can't be organized for free?  I contend that apathy is a greater hurdle to FET research than lack of funding.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2015, 03:19:04 PM »
I think the OP vastly overestimates the general interest and curiosity in TFES.  If I had been solicited for money (either directly or indirectly) when I arrived, I just would have left and never returned.  I was curious about FET, but not that curious.  I probably would have further assumed that FET wasn't a real thing, but just some sort of weird clickbait scheme.

Even having been here for a bit, I would probably leave if I had to deal with a bunch of popups or solicitations or whatever.  Not that my presence here matters to anything or anyone; I just think others would probably do the same.

My attempt to be constructive: I don't think anyone will want to contribute to a sort of FET general fund; but, I do think you could probably drum up some donations from people like me if you were to plan a detailed experiment and submit it to the community like a grant proposal.  The key word here is "detailed."  Taking the BLE as an example, maybe you could submit a proposal on the boards for a modern update.  Describe the equipment that will be used, your methodology, etc.  Like any experiment, every detail need to be subjected to scrutiny.

I know that none of you are ever going to chart Antarctica, so I obviously would never donate to that.  And I wouldn't donate to a general operating fund to be spent by whomever on whatever.  But I might throw a few bucks at a well-planned experiment.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2015, 04:39:30 PM »
I would have to say that I would have to bow out of the society as a whole were this to happen.  I'm not at all comfortable supporting a group that resorts to the lowest common denominator methods of internet marketing.    The whole idea makes me sick to my stomach.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2015, 07:43:17 PM »
I am absolutely opposed to task based financing. I don't want this society to be a spam-producing, sketchy clickbait site. Regardless of whether or not that's how you see it, Tom, that's how visitors would see it if we had an offer wall on the site.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2015, 08:40:17 PM »
I am absolutely opposed to task based financing. I don't want this society to be a spam-producing, sketchy clickbait site. Regardless of whether or not that's how you see it, Tom, that's how visitors would see it if we had an offer wall on the site.

Absolutely.  This kind of crap gives any site a terrible reputation very quickly.

Thork

Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 08:48:31 PM »
sick to my stomach.
spam-producing, sketchy clickbait
This kind of crap


I operate a small marketing company. We specialize in providing innovative ways for websites to collect micropayments for their content.


Well this got awkward. How about we just agree the society probably isn't ready for this kind of evolution and leave it there? I think this is when a thread should be locked.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2015, 09:05:58 PM »
No need for awkwardness, it's the reality of internet marketing.   I work in internet marketing.  I'm also in school so I won't have to do it forever, because it's rife with crap like this and I hate every second.  I'm not going to hold Tom personally responsible (it's a living, I do it too), but I do reserve the right to call sketchy clickbait marketing tactics sketchy when I see them.  Doesn't mean I think any less of Tom.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 09:08:14 PM by Tintagel »

Saddam Hussein

Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2015, 09:30:31 PM »
I am going to bravely jump on the bandwagon here and also express my disagreement with this.  We don't need to try to make money off of FET.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 02:30:21 AM »
The main problem I have with this idea, Tom ... is why are we fundraising?

There are a lot of ideas going around that require money. The projects we work on would be decided democratically.

Quote
I don't care about Antarctica.

What do you care about? Raising money for the sake of it seems a little odd.

No it does not seem odd. The goal of any organization, non-profit or otherwise, should be to raise money and remain liquid.

If this society is ever to achieve its goals it needs capital. Research needs compensation. Expeditions to foreign lands require cash. Experiments need dollars. Simply getting an article peer reviewed and distributed requires investment.

Do you think that real scientific organizations all operate on zero budgets and their scientists all work for free?

Quote
What do you hope to gain? I can only assume you hope to get media coverage with a similar story to "hollow earth seeks to find entrance". If its purely raising our profile, I'm sure we can do that another way for similar effect without shaking down all our visitors for loose change.

I am asking for ideas for how capital can be raised without becoming unattractive. So far I have seen put downs and zero effort.

Quote
If you'd said "We must redo the Bedford level experiment properly" I could at least understand that you had a specific purpose and motive. To fix a specific problem. But "I want to raise funds for something" suggests you are looking to add a process without an end goal.

If a redo of the Belford Canal experiment is what you would like to campaign for you would need to get the entire community on your side. My side right now is "lets figure out how to raise capital to do the interesting things we want to do".

Quote
As I've said before, if TFES became a registered charity and revenue went to a good cause - say a children's hospital or education materials for disadvantaged or disabled kids, I'd give you all the help my time allowed. But I can't get excited about a never ending fund to send a balloon into the stratosphere or buy a virgin galactic ticket.

Why would we raise funds and give it to children for education materials? We already pay our taxes to people to do that. This is the Flat Earth Society. We should be raising funds to further Flat Earth research.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 02:50:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 02:40:43 AM »
I would have to say that I would have to bow out of the society as a whole were this to happen.  I'm not at all comfortable supporting a group that resorts to the lowest common denominator methods of internet marketing.    The whole idea makes me sick to my stomach.

Here is another idea:

Instead of using low tier offers which are geared towards a general audience (ie, enter your zip code for a free box of Cheerios) we can take the time to pick out offers relevant to science and technology. It will be more time consuming to find these offers, and they sometimes need approval before running, but they exist. Right now Smithsonian Magazine is offering to pay $9 for signups for their 2 issue free trial. Users will receive 2 issues of their magazine and then have the option of signing up with Smithsonian for more.

We would get users to sign up with something like this:

Quote
Download Earth Not a Globe 2015 Expanded Edition and
Get 2 Free Issues of Smithsonian Magazine


« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 02:48:38 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 03:27:12 AM »
Do you think that real scientific organizations all operate on zero budgets and their scientists all work for free?
Tom, how many times have you dismissed "real scientific organizations" because the "real scientists" were paid to produce the results that their employers wanted.  Is this what you really want for TFES?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2015, 04:04:37 AM »
I would have to say that I would have to bow out of the society as a whole were this to happen.  I'm not at all comfortable supporting a group that resorts to the lowest common denominator methods of internet marketing.    The whole idea makes me sick to my stomach.

Here is another idea:

Instead of using low tier offers which are geared towards a general audience (ie, enter your zip code for a free box of Cheerios) we can take the time to pick out offers relevant to science and technology. It will be more time consuming to find these offers, and they sometimes need approval before running, but they exist. Right now Smithsonian Magazine is offering to pay $9 for signups for their 2 issue free trial. Users will receive 2 issues of their magazine and then have the option of signing up with Smithsonian for more.

We would get users to sign up with something like this:



Still a no, in my case.  It's backhanded and sleazy, the sort of thing I'd expect to find on a less-than-reputable website, and this kind of campaign really doesn't sit well with me.  I know it's your company and all, and I mean no offense, that's just the way I feel about it.  I'm not interested in being associated with a website with these practices at all.

I think the T-Shirts and the book(s) are much more in the direction we need to look for fundraising efforts, and I concur that registering as a nonprofit and supporting charitable organizations would be good for us.  I don't oppose ideas for fundraising in general, but this one, scientific focus or no, is just not something I'd recommend for any website who doesn't want to appear shady, and it's not something I can participate in at all.  I do this crap at work because I have to, and my employer graciously works around my school schedule.  Outside of that context, I want nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:21:08 AM by Tintagel »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2015, 06:03:11 AM »
Do you think that real scientific organizations all operate on zero budgets and their scientists all work for free?
Tom, how many times have you dismissed "real scientific organizations" because the "real scientists" were paid to produce the results that their employers wanted.  Is this what you really want for TFES?

We are already accused of faking research. If we had an actual budget we would get more and better quality research. Isn't that what you have been asking for since you got here?

Still a no, in my case.  It's backhanded and sleazy, the sort of thing I'd expect to find on a less-than-reputable website, and this kind of campaign really doesn't sit well with me.  I know it's your company and all, and I mean no offense, that's just the way I feel about it.  I'm not interested in being associated with a website with these practices at all.

I think the T-Shirts and the book(s) are much more in the direction we need to look for fundraising efforts, and I concur that registering as a nonprofit and supporting charitable organizations would be good for us.  I don't oppose ideas for fundraising in general, but this one, scientific focus or no, is just not something I'd recommend for any website who doesn't want to appear shady, and it's not something I can participate in at all.  I do this crap at work because I have to, and my employer graciously works around my school schedule.  Outside of that context, I want nothing to do with it.

How is offering two issues of Smithsonian Magazine with the copy of the new Earth Not a Globe book sleazy or backhanded? That's the least offensive form of advertising I can imagine. We would certainly get more interest than if we were to sell the book outright. We would be basically giving the book away for free, as well as a popular science magazine.

I would be more offended if I went to a Hollow Earth site and they were trying to push their books on me for profit, withholding research about a Hollow Earth unless I pay them money. My idea is a less sleazy way to fund-raise. The research is being given out for free. You want us to withhold research from the public unless we get paid in cash. That's terrible.

A disclaimer can be made that the "Smithsonian Magazine is partnered with the Flat Earth Society to bring you this offer." Anyone with an IQ above room temperature could figure out that money is somehow exchanging hands. It's not really that backhanded.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 06:17:30 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline xasop

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Re: Fundraising Idea: Task-Based Micro Payments
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2015, 07:26:48 AM »
As the person who runs this forum, let me state for the record that there will never be any revenue raised from it in any form. This forum is and always will remain free of charge, free of advertising and free of any solicitation of financial contribution (direct or indirect) for anyone to use, provided that they post within the rules.

Naturally, Daniel's website (which will remain the host of the Society homepage post-reunification) is under his remit, but I would be very surprised if he is any more amiable to this idea than I am.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol