[Munky]

Tom Bishop:

Based on your prior post, it appears that this is the Flat Earth model you are comfortable with As you will see below, the Distances are the same on this model as well. So the previous Math still applies. In this model the distance from Tokyo to Singapore is close to the same as the distance from LAX to Tokyo:



By the same math "Two times 11.36 (by your own admission of the time it takes to go from LAX to Japan) is 23.12 hours. Not accounting for taxi on the take off and landing as well as airtime. total trip should be 25 hours or more on a flat map model."

These flights do not work on the Flat Earth Model, yet they do on a Globe Model. how do you explain this?

[juner]

Thanks for taking the time to read the rules. I was simply telling you how the upper fora are moderated. You didn't receive any kind of warning. There really isn't any reason to discuss in this thread further. You are free to make a thread in Suggestions & Concerns if you feel the need to, but I think we've come to an understanding.

[Munky]

I am sure we have Junker. Do we have your permission to continue with the discussion now?

[juner]

Do we have your permission to continue with the discussion now?

Not that you need permission, but sure.

[rabinoz]

Yes, that's the bi-polar model. The bi-polar model is also featured in the Wiki, and in some of the Flat Earth Literature, not only by Sandokhan. The map is not official, and is subject to change, but that's the idea of it. Yes, I think it needs to be subject to enormous change!  See the image on the right. As it stands: How is an East to West circumnavigation possible on the equator? How is a North to South (then S back to N) circumnavigation possible on say Longitude 0°E? Australia is certainly nothing like the shape shown! It's worse than on the "UN" map. On this map Australia (see below) looks a big as the whole of Africa (or South America). I know we're a big country, but not that big! I do realise that the Bi-polar flat earth is still a "work-in-progress", but like the other map, I strongly suspect it's a bit like flogging that poor old dead-horse.  Tom, you might need to brush up on your "π = 4" theory here! Actually "π = 2" might be needed!  Just joking! That won't help here!

Bi-Polar map Flat Earth

Bi-polar map - Australia

Bi-polar map - Africa

[Wezzoid]

Yes, that's the bi-polar model. The bi-polar model is also featured in the Wiki, and in some of the Flat Earth Literature, not only by Sandokhan. The map is not official, and is subject to change, but that's the idea of it.

oh come on Tom stop being silly, the bipolar model was torn to shreds before. This figure-8 sun model is nonsense, otherwise somebody would have noticed the retrograde motions of the sun, and Australia would get as cold as Siberia. What kind of celestial gears allow people to see stars rotate about the pole star and the southern cross on this model? It's a mess. Frankly it looks like celestial roadkill.

[Tom Bishop]

• How is an East to West circumnavigation possible on the equator?

The compass will align with the magnetic fields coming from either the North or South Pole.

• How is a North to South (then S back to N) circumnavigation possible on say Longitude 0°E?

The compass doesn't actually work in the Arctic or Antarctic circles, as the field lines are vertical. You would have a lot of trouble making that route. Anything you attempt would have to be guessed at based on looking at celestial markers like the sun.

• Australia is certainly nothing like the shape shown! It's worse than on the "UN" map.

And how do you know what shape Australia takes?

• On this map Australia (see below) looks a big as the whole of Africa (or South America). I know we're a big country, but not that big!

And how do you know how big either continent is?

[Tom Bishop]

Yes, that's the bi-polar model. The bi-polar model is also featured in the Wiki, and in some of the Flat Earth Literature, not only by Sandokhan. The map is not official, and is subject to change, but that's the idea of it.

oh come on Tom stop being silly, the bipolar model was torn to shreds before. This figure-8 sun model is nonsense, otherwise somebody would have noticed the retrograde motions of the sun, and Australia would get as cold as Siberia. What kind of celestial gears allow people to see stars rotate about the pole star and the southern cross on this model? It's a mess. Frankly it looks like celestial roadkill.

The sun doesn't always follow straight lines in the sky. Sometimes it changes directions mid-stride.



In fact, the sun does not always move in a consistent pattern:



The above image is a capture of the sun over a period of 8 hours.

How is this change in direction explained in Round Earth Theory?

[Munky]

Tom you still have not responded to my post about the distances between LAX and Tokyo being equal to Tokyo and Singapore.

I eagerly await your response.

[Tom Bishop]

Tom Bishop:

Based on your prior post, it appears that this is the Flat Earth model you are comfortable with As you will see below, the Distances are the same on this model as well. So the previous Math still applies. In this model the distance from Tokyo to Singapore is close to the same as the distance from LAX to Tokyo:



By the same math "Two times 11.36 (by your own admission of the time it takes to go from LAX to Japan) is 23.12 hours. Not accounting for taxi on the take off and landing as well as airtime. total trip should be 25 hours or more on a flat map model."

These flights do not work on the Flat Earth Model, yet they do on a Globe Model. how do you explain this?

Your arrows are pointing to neither Los Angeles, Japan or Singapore.

If you make the adjustments, you would see that the LAX to Japan is notably longer than Japan to Singapore line.

[Munky]

My arrows are pointed correctly. Do you know where japan is on a regular map? or where Singapore is?

[Tom Bishop]

Nothing is correct about those lines. The line segments ar not ending at Los Angeles, they are not ending at Tokyo, and they are not ending at Singapore.

[rabinoz]

I apologise for the length of this but Tom Bishop posts so much naïve rubbish I have to answer it!

• How is an East to West circumnavigation possible on the equator?

The compass will align with the magnetic fields coming from either the North or South Pole.

Have you even looked at your map?  Just what happens when the aircraft drops off the earth following the equator when heading west from South America? For accurate navigation we would not use a magnetic compass! We can use Celestial Navigation, you know what ships and aircraft used before GPS. It's how Cook found his way around!
Celestial fixes are used to determine an accurate location, then a magnetic compass and log for dead reckoning while actually sailing. Do you really think the quite accurate surveys of the coasts of New Zealand, Australia by Cook were done by peering at a Magnetic Compass!  Star and sun fixes!

• How is a North to South (then S back to N) circumnavigation possible on say Longitude 0°E?

The compass doesn't actually work in the Arctic or Antarctic circles, as the field lines are vertical[/]. You would have a lot of trouble making that route. Anything you attempt would have to be guessed at based on looking at celestial markers like the sun.

The field lines are not vertical near the South Pole! The South Magnetic Pole is a long way from the South Pole! So if we know the declination we could even use a Magnetic Compass.  In any case:
How do you think Robert Peary located the North Pole? - sun sights!
How do you think Amundsen and Scott located the South Pole? - sun sights!
But the big issue is not navigation on your bi-polar map again you drop off the earth when you pass Antarctica, then head "North" past New Zealand![/] However do you get from there back over the "void" to the Arctic again? Maybe a bit of Aetheric Transportation, but not over a miniscule distance like on JRowe's "Dual Flat earth".

• Australia is certainly nothing like the shape shown! It's worse than on the "UN" map.

And how do you know what shape Australia takes?

Are you serious? How do I know what shape Australia takes? I have driven over most of it and while that does not tell the me shape, it DOES tell me the distances from East to West and from North to South, and they are NOTHING LIKE your map.
Besides, unlike you, I am quite prepared to believe the surveyors who have measured the country!
I suppose you are now going to tell that we cannot trust chains and theodiltes[/] to measure distances and angles?

• On this map Australia (see below) looks as big as the whole of Africa (or South America). I know we're a big country, but not that big!

And how do you know how big either continent is?
Perhaps you should go ahead and explore South America for us so we can make corrections.

Stop being utterly childish. Those countries have been quite adequately explored and surveyed to know their size and shape by now.

How do you know what shape these continents are?

If you are proposing a map with shapes and sizes so different from the accepted ones you really should have some solid evidence!

You simply do not have any evidence that this data is significantly in error.

From what I can see all the Zetetic method amounts to is looking out your window and deciding that the earth is flat, then

bending everything else to fit that one observation!

[juner]

For accurate navigation we would not use a magnetic compass! We can use Celestial Navigation,

This must be why airline pilots and ship captains use such a method in the present... 

[Rayzor]

How is this change in direction explained in Round Earth Theory?

That pattern can be observed when you are far enough North  ( or South ) to see the sun following the horizon,    it was a solagraph taken with a pinhole camera pointed south.    So it would be a very wide FOV.

More detail can be found here ...  http://paulinewoolleyartist.blogspot.com.au/search/label/PIN%20HOLE%20PHOTOGRAPHY

[Tom Bishop]

How is this change in direction explained in Round Earth Theory?

That pattern can be observed when you are far enough North  ( or South ) to see the sun following the horizon,    it was a solagraph taken with a pinhole camera pointed south.    So it would be a very wide FOV.

More detail can be found here ...  http://paulinewoolleyartist.blogspot.com.au/search/label/PIN%20HOLE%20PHOTOGRAPHY

So you admit that the sun changes direction in the sky mid day in your model?

Here's another one:

[rabinoz]

For accurate navigation we would not use a magnetic compass! We can use Celestial Navigation,

This must be why airline pilots and ship captains use such a method in the present...   

I did say that celestial fixes are made to determine an accurate location, even in aircraft, take a look at:
https://timeandnavigation.si.edu/navigating-air/challenges/overcoming-challenges/celestial-navigation
Lindbergh used celestial fixes, why would he do such a difficult thing while flying solo if it was not necessary!

The magnetic compass along with a ground speed estimate is used to fly the plane or sail the ship, with accurate fixes by other means.

Modern aircraft and ships of course have GPS and other navigation methods available.

Almost all large ships and now many smaller boats use the Marine Gyro-compass, which finds true north using the earth's rotation. The marine type Gyro-compass cannot be used in aircraft because of their much higher speed.

Yes magnetic compasses are often used for navigation, but they can never accurately give the heading or location!

But you ignore the vital point, on the Bi-Polar map you seem to fall off the earth circumnavigating along the equator or along latitude lines 0° and then 180°.

[Wezzoid]

oh come on Tom stop being silly, the bipolar model was torn to shreds before. This figure-8 sun model is nonsense, otherwise somebody would have noticed the retrograde motions of the sun, and Australia would get as cold as Siberia. What kind of celestial gears allow people to see stars rotate about the pole star and the southern cross on this model? It's a mess. Frankly it looks like celestial roadkill.

The sun doesn't always follow straight lines in the sky. Sometimes it changes directions mid-stride.



In fact, the sun does not always move in a consistent pattern:



The above image is a capture of the sun over a period of 8 hours.

How is this change in direction explained in Round Earth Theory?

There is no change in direction, you simply don't understand solargraphy. The distorted path on solargraphs is due to the photographic 'plate' being curved at the back of the pinhole camera. See http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Educational/Solargraphy/Solargraphy.htm

Apart from that, what you've shown does not demonstrate retrograde motion or in any way support this daft fig-8 path.

Also you made no attempt to address my points about star motions and impossible winter temperatures. Do you need me to restate what I said or can you scroll up?

[Sputnik]

Inventing extra theories - such as giant mirrors and mechanical structures directing the movement of the cosmos - is a tell tale sign that something is amiss.

Truth has an elegance, an efficiency, a simplicity. Efficiency is evident in nature where ever one looks.

[Sputnik]

Using pictures of the path of the sun is not proof. If it was, then pictures of the round Earth would also be proof.

Anything you can posit as being wrong with a picture of a round Earth or moon or sun can just as well be applied to pictures of irregular trajectories of the sun.

Further, there is no reason to believe one way or the other that that is actually a picture of the path of the sun.

You'll have to do better than that.