*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 1367
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2019, 02:36:57 PM »
In my question about airline flight times, I have suggested a very simple method to create a flat earth map, using flight times between cities. See this post:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15105.msg196360#msg196360

Can someone from the FE community do this and report back with the result?

Many people including myself have attempted to do exactly what you suggested.  In fact in this very thread.  The problem has been that the few FE'ers that respond derail the concept with claims of distances being unknown.  The infamous quote by Tom Bishop was that no one knows how far it is from New York to Paris.

I suggest you do what you are saying and lay out a map between major points and see what you come up with.  This will not produce accurate compass directions but will show the general layout.   Start with one point and draw a circle with the radius to the next point. Look for intersections of the circles as you add more points.

I have done it and it starts falling apart very quickly as distances increase.  The real breakdown comes with points in the southern hemisphere.
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2019, 04:54:27 PM »
In my question about airline flight times, I have suggested a very simple method to create a flat earth map, using flight times between cities. See this post:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15105.msg196360#msg196360

Can someone from the FE community do this and report back with the result?

Many people including myself have attempted to do exactly what you suggested.  In fact in this very thread.  The problem has been that the few FE'ers that respond derail the concept with claims of distances being unknown.  The infamous quote by Tom Bishop was that no one knows how far it is from New York to Paris.

I suggest you do what you are saying and lay out a map between major points and see what you come up with.  This will not produce accurate compass directions but will show the general layout.   Start with one point and draw a circle with the radius to the next point. Look for intersections of the circles as you add more points.

I have done it and it starts falling apart very quickly as distances increase.  The real breakdown comes with points in the southern hemisphere.


his topic has been discussed hundreds of times. The flat disk model is considerably weakened by known flight times/distances, known travel times/distances, known shipping times/distances. This is why I presented an alternate model in which the earth is represented as a flat plane and is much less weakened by these things. Generally the problem is that, when a flight time does not support a specific model for the person making the map, that flight does not count (it does not exist, it's a lie, it's inaccurate, etc.).



For supporters of the models that are severely weakened by this evidence and these observations I got all the rebuttals from a flight time superthread. (Pick any one of your rebuttals from the list below) Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0




-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615



-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996


-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441


-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359


-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369


-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410


-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411


-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 06:15:07 PM by iamcpc »

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2019, 07:45:30 PM »
What difference should that make? unless you think land distorts in real life the further away you are a static flat earth map is just as accurate.

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill




This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).


« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 08:00:42 PM by iamcpc »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2019, 10:15:12 PM »
What difference should that make? unless you think land distorts in real life the further away you are a static flat earth map is just as accurate.

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).

A couple problems with this.

- Omni-directional Treadmill: If you and I are both to meet in Tokyo, both departing from San Francisco at the same time, you flying East, me flying West - your omnidirectional treadmill would be moving one way, mine would be moving the opposite way. How does that work?

- Interactive Bing/Mapquest Model: Doing some more digging, interactivity does not solve any problems. According to Microsoft documentation regarding the scaling (interactivity) of their Bing map, even when zoomed in the map is still based upon WGS84 datum as defined: The WGS 84 datum surface is an oblate spheroid with equatorial radius a = 6378137 m at the equator and flattening f = 1/298.257223563.

From Microsoft:
"The latitude and longitude are assumed to be on the WGS 84 datum. Even though Bing Maps uses a spherical projection, it’s important to convert all geographic coordinates into a common datum, and WGS 84 was chosen to be that datum."

Same for Mapquest as it is powered by OpenStreetMaps, which is based upon WGS84 as well.


Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2019, 10:46:03 PM »

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).

A couple problems with this.

- Omni-directional Treadmill: If you and I are both to meet in Tokyo, both departing from San Francisco at the same time, you flying East, me flying West - your omnidirectional treadmill would be moving one way, mine would be moving the opposite way. How does that work?

I've already explained this and documented it in the thread linked. before. I'll link it again here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

- Interactive Bing/Mapquest Model: Doing some more digging, interactivity does not solve any problems. According to Microsoft documentation regarding the scaling (interactivity) of their Bing map, even when zoomed in the map is still based upon WGS84 datum as defined: The WGS 84 datum surface is an oblate spheroid with equatorial radius a = 6378137 m at the equator and flattening f = 1/298.257223563.

From Microsoft:
"The latitude and longitude are assumed to be on the WGS 84 datum. Even though Bing Maps uses a spherical projection, it’s important to convert all geographic coordinates into a common datum, and WGS 84 was chosen to be that datum."

Same for Mapquest as it is powered by OpenStreetMaps, which is based upon WGS84 as well.

Then you can stand up and proudly say "DOES NOT COUNT" to them as flat earth models. I don't share your view. Your "DOES NOT COUNT" quite frankly "DOES NOT COUNT" to me.

Why don't you find an interactive map, with an interactive scale, which you think does count.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 10:50:30 PM by iamcpc »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2019, 11:22:23 PM »

A static non interactive image has a definitive edge. I am of the belief that the earth does not have an edge. If you travel in a straight line in any direction you will arrive roughly back at the same place you started without teleporting. Kind of like if you were walking on an omnidirectional treadmill

This video outlines the problems with the flat disk model as well as the problems with a static non interactive non moving Bing/mapquest model (at about the 1:39 mark).

A couple problems with this.

- Omni-directional Treadmill: If you and I are both to meet in Tokyo, both departing from San Francisco at the same time, you flying East, me flying West - your omnidirectional treadmill would be moving one way, mine would be moving the opposite way. How does that work?

I've already explained this and documented it in the thread linked. before. I'll link it again here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

Yes, you have explained and documented this before. And from that thread, your explanation and documentation mystified everyone else. But maybe we're just all daft. But essentially the same conceptual problems you have with the common FE AE map/model are the same problems you should have with an 'FE' Bing style map/model.

FE AE map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially in the southern hemisphere. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No
'FE' Bing style map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially when traveling east or west off the map. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No

- Interactive Bing/Mapquest Model: Doing some more digging, interactivity does not solve any problems. According to Microsoft documentation regarding the scaling (interactivity) of their Bing map, even when zoomed in the map is still based upon WGS84 datum as defined: The WGS 84 datum surface is an oblate spheroid with equatorial radius a = 6378137 m at the equator and flattening f = 1/298.257223563.

From Microsoft:
"The latitude and longitude are assumed to be on the WGS 84 datum. Even though Bing Maps uses a spherical projection, it’s important to convert all geographic coordinates into a common datum, and WGS 84 was chosen to be that datum."

Same for Mapquest as it is powered by OpenStreetMaps, which is based upon WGS84 as well.

Then you can stand up and proudly say "DOES NOT COUNT" to them as flat earth models. I don't share your view. Your "DOES NOT COUNT" quite frankly "DOES NOT COUNT" to me.

Why don't you find an interactive map, with an interactive scale, which you think does count.

I never uttered the words, "does not count". I'm just merely pointing out that "interactivity" or not doesn't matter because these interactive maps you've referenced are globe based regardless of whether you're zoomed in or not. If you don't like that fact, take it up with Microsoft.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2019, 11:54:12 PM »
Yes, you have explained and documented this before. And from that thread, your explanation and documentation mystified everyone else. But maybe we're just all daft. But essentially the same conceptual problems you have with the common FE AE map/model are the same problems you should have with an 'FE' Bing style map/model.

FE AE map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially in the southern hemisphere. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No
'FE' Bing style map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially when traveling east or west off the map. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No

You can't travel off of the bing map. I've sent screenshots to demonstrate how you can travel east and wind up where you started as well as travel west and wind up where you started without traveling off of the edge of anything.  The map is interactive.

If you look at a map of Texas and drive outside of the Texas border does the edge of the map represent the end of all existence? no it does not.

The same logic applies to a RE model. You can't take a flat 2d static image of a globe and demonstrate these kinds of flights. You can do it with a globe because the globe is interactive and can spin.



Refusing to accept an interactive map and FORCING the use of a static not interactive image to represent a planet which is not static is the same as me doing this to you:



Draw a line on this static image of the round earth model which demonstrates a flight from San Francisco to Tokyo:

One line in the unedited image below. If you can't draw such a line the earth can't possibly be a globe!!!


these interactive maps you've referenced are globe

Ok. I got it. You believe they are globe maps. I've known that for some time now.

I never uttered the words, "does not count".

 So you are saying that, even though you believe they are globe maps, they do count as FE maps?

Because if you are saying that these maps "DO NOT COUNT" as FE maps because you believe they are globe maps then my original statement stands
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:03:27 AM by iamcpc »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2019, 12:38:25 AM »
Yes, you have explained and documented this before. And from that thread, your explanation and documentation mystified everyone else. But maybe we're just all daft. But essentially the same conceptual problems you have with the common FE AE map/model are the same problems you should have with an 'FE' Bing style map/model.

FE AE map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially in the southern hemisphere. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No
'FE' Bing style map/model: Distances are all out of whack especially when traveling east or west off the map. Would it make a difference if it were 'interactive'? No

You can't travel off of the bing map. I've sent screenshots to demonstrate how you can travel east and wind up where you started as well as travel west and wind up where you started without traveling off of the edge of anything.  The map is interactive.

Hmmm, maybe I am just incapable of conveying what I think I am trying to convey. Entirely possible.

If you look at a map of Texas and drive outside of the Texas border does the edge of the map represent the end of all existence? no it does not.

We are not talking about a map of Texas, we are talking about a map of the world.

The same logic applies to a RE model. You can't take a flat 2d static image of a globe and demonstrate these kinds of flights. You can do it with a globe because the globe is interactive and can spin.

Refusing to accept an interactive map and FORCING the use of a static not interactive image to represent a planet which is not static is the same as me doing this to you:

Draw a line on this static image of the round earth model which demonstrates a flight from San Francisco to Tokyo:

One line in the unedited image below. If you can't draw such a line the earth can't possibly be a globe!!!


The same logic doesn't apply because we are talking about 3D versus 2D.

these interactive maps you've referenced are globe

Ok. I got it. You believe they are globe maps. I've known that for some time now.

I never uttered the words, "does not count".

 So you are saying that, even though you believe they are globe maps, they do count as FE maps?

Because if you are saying that these maps "DO NOT COUNT" as FE maps because you believe they are globe maps then my original statement stands

Ask yourself what the question is that's being asked in the OP and why.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2019, 01:08:43 AM »
The same logic doesn't apply because we are talking about 3D versus 2D.

A quick glance around shows that i'm in a 3D room in a 3D state in a 3D country on a 3D planet so the same logic does apply.



Ask yourself what the question is that's being asked in the OP and why.

That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2019, 01:44:45 AM »
The same logic doesn't apply because we are talking about 3D versus 2D.

A quick glance around shows that i'm in a 3D room in a 3D state in a 3D country on a 3D planet so the same logic does apply.



Ask yourself what the question is that's being asked in the OP and why.

That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

You seem to be the only one who can answer their own questions. So ask yourself why this topic exists.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2019, 03:08:33 AM »


That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

You seem to be the only one who can answer their own questions. So ask yourself why this topic exists.


Was that a yes or a no?


I'll ask again because i'm not sure what the answer is.

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2019, 08:12:19 AM »


That does not answer my question. A simple yes or no would suffice. Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

You seem to be the only one who can answer their own questions. So ask yourself why this topic exists.


Was that a yes or a no?


I'll ask again because i'm not sure what the answer is.

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because you believe they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

My beliefs have never played a role in this discussion.

Offline reer

  • *
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2019, 09:57:40 AM »
@TomInAustin, @iamcpc

What you are saying is that none of the FEers care two hoots about reality. If they cannot build a flat map from the information which they claim is acceptable (flight times) then, in that case only, the data is wrong.

It's a game of half a dozen I lose, 6 you win. There is no fun left in  arguing in a case like that, so I'M OUTTA HERE.

*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 1367
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2019, 02:37:08 PM »
@TomInAustin, @iamcpc

What you are saying is that none of the FEers care two hoots about reality. If they cannot build a flat map from the information which they claim is acceptable (flight times) then, in that case only, the data is wrong.

It's a game of half a dozen I lose, 6 you win. There is no fun left in  arguing in a case like that, so I'M OUTTA HERE.

How is the data wrong?   Many companies gamble with huge amounts of money based on distance data.  Shipping, Airlines, Cruise Lines etc
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2019, 04:36:30 PM »
My beliefs have never played a role in this discussion.

Ok i'll try wording the question differently? I drew lots of lines on the maps for you. Now you're just trolling by REFUSING to answer a yes or no question.


I'll ask again because i'm not sure what the answer is.

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps




@TomInAustin, @iamcpc

What you are saying is that none of the FEers care two hoots about reality. If they cannot build a flat map from the information which they claim is acceptable (flight times) then, in that case only, the data is wrong.

It's a game of half a dozen I lose, 6 you win. There is no fun left in  arguing in a case like that, so I'M OUTTA HERE.

Flat maps have been built but none agreed upon.

For example on an infinite plane earth you can't map infinity
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 04:38:45 PM by iamcpc »

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 926
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2019, 06:45:55 PM »
I'll answer your question, if a map is literally based on a globe projection then it does not count as a 'flat earth' map. It is a 'flat' earth map but not a 'flat earth' map. It's a map of the globe. Maps just happen to be easier presented as flat, hence why there exists 'flat' maps of the globe. Bing is simply a map of the globe and the reason it loops infinitely is because it's a ball. Why would it loop if it were flat as the projection presents?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 832
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2019, 07:25:53 PM »
does not count

This is what i'm saying is lame. It's lame for someone to say a map does not count just like it's lame for someone to say a southern hemisphere flight does not count.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2019, 08:59:15 PM »
does not count

This is what i'm saying is lame. It's lame for someone to say a map does not count just like it's lame for someone to say a southern hemisphere flight does not count.

I'm not following. It's lame for Microsoft to state that their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances?

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 926
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2019, 09:16:18 PM »
iamcpc stop focusing on people telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps and concentrate on why people are telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps. you can disagree all you want but they're still globe maps, so by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

*

Offline kopfverderber

  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Atheist
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2019, 10:07:37 PM »
Hi all, I just read the whole thread and wanted to contribute to the discussion.

@iamcpc  If you travel on the earth in a straight line for long enough you will eventually arrive back to to the point from when you started. Many FE models are incompatible with this fact, but from what I understood you agree to this.

Most people will take this as proof that the earth is round, but you propose an alternative flat earth model where you can travel in a straight line and arrive at the starting point. In your model the earth is on an finite plane with no borders.  So we humans are confined to this finite plane that we cannot leave. Is that correct?

From my limited understanding this model of yours is not compatible with euclidean space. It would require space to be curved in way that the universe has the form of a extremely small manifold, but that's just my conjecture.

If we would be able to fly high enough would we also reach what is under our feet?

"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."