Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #840 on: October 11, 2014, 07:05:40 PM »
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Maybe this will help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

It doesn't, please explane

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #841 on: October 11, 2014, 07:05:59 PM »
No.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #842 on: October 11, 2014, 07:19:23 PM »
The existence of time is completely dependent on observation. If an entity does not exist that can observe a passage of time (e.g. retain some form of memory or recording of the past) then the past effectively does not exist. This is true unless you can provably show a passage of time without observation. You would need experimental evidence of a chronoton or some other form of "time particle." Otherwise, time really doesn't exist, only the present exists. The future or past is an invention of the human mind.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 07:20:57 PM by Irushwithscvs »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #843 on: October 11, 2014, 07:20:53 PM »
The question of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?", is reminiscent of the issue of the minyan in Judaism. To have a full quorum for prayer, there must be 10 adult males in the Orthodox tradition, or 10 adult persons (men or women) in the Conservative tradition. If there are less, the service is shortened drastically.

I have often wondered at this. It seems to me that, even if there is only one Jew praying, what about the countless Angels singing glory to God as well, with whom (notice I did not say TO WHOM) we pray? Why aren't they counted? Note that the Reform do NOT count the Minyan. The service is the same if there are 2 Jews or 50 Jews.

So back to the tree. Of course it makes a noise. Even if you aren't there, SOMETHING is. Another human, or a fox, or a rodent, or SOMETHING is there! It wouldn't break in a vacuum. And even if it did, the Angels would be there to hear it.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #844 on: October 11, 2014, 07:21:43 PM »
The existence of time is completely dependent on observation. If an entity does not exist that can observe a passage of time (e.g. retain some form of memory or recording of the past) then the past effectively does not exist.

It's impossible to tell whether you're being ironic or not.

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #845 on: October 11, 2014, 07:25:55 PM »
Time is hypothesized to be the 4th dimension. I think scientists came to this conclusion because of time dilation. So it's something. Maybe it's just a byproduct of mass? The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however. That's not going to change. Like Rushy said, unless you can prove that there are time particles or some other such thing then I don't understand the point you're trying to make, Blanko.

And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 07:27:29 PM by Vauxhall »

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #846 on: October 11, 2014, 07:37:41 PM »
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #847 on: October 11, 2014, 07:39:47 PM »
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

I personally agree, but that is still debatable.

Sorry for my poor word choice.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #848 on: October 11, 2014, 07:42:07 PM »
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

I personally agree, but that is still debatable.

Sorry for my poor word choice.

It's as debatable as saying that your observations are incorrect and that time doesn't exist at all, period. After all, you couldn't possibly prove otherwise :^)

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #849 on: October 11, 2014, 07:43:18 PM »
Exactly.

Time hurts my head.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #850 on: October 11, 2014, 07:43:34 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #851 on: October 11, 2014, 07:44:02 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

What about creation science?

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #852 on: October 11, 2014, 07:47:55 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

What about creation science?

No such thing. Creation myth is more accurate.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #853 on: October 11, 2014, 07:52:17 PM »
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Prove it. Prove to me that time is a literal, concrete object that exists regardless of observation.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #854 on: October 11, 2014, 07:59:42 PM »
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Prove it. Prove to me that time is a literal, concrete object that exists regardless of observation.

Nobody made that claim.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #855 on: October 11, 2014, 08:02:49 PM »
Nobody made that claim.

Except that Blanko is claiming that time would still exist if no one was there to see it while simultaneously saying it is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas don't exist outside of the human mind, which is why they are abstract in the first place. So yes, Blanko did make that claim.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #856 on: October 11, 2014, 08:10:40 PM »
Nobody made that claim.

Except that Blanko is claiming that time would still exist if no one was there to see it while simultaneously saying it is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas don't exist outside of the human mind, which is why they are abstract in the first place. So yes, Blanko did make that claim.

Please show me where Blanko or anybody else made the claim that time is an object.

Furthermore, "time" is just an abstraction of a real phenomenon. Matter and energy can change without being observed, and time is just that: the movement of energy and matter.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #857 on: October 11, 2014, 08:15:23 PM »
Fuck off and take it to the other thread.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #858 on: October 12, 2014, 10:35:17 AM »
QUOTE from Vaux: "And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels."

Why can't I cite Angels? The Talmud, and the Qur'an both cite Angels and Djinn. Angels are made of Light, and Djinn are made of Smokeless Fire.  Humans are made of Dust (sometimes translated as Clay).

Your refusal to accept either Djinn or Angels does not speak for their non-existence, but rather, for your own ignorance of their existence. Judaism and Islam acknowledge belief in both. Christianity at least acknowledges belief in Angels and rebellious Angels (Demons), as does Islam. Judaism doesn't accept that idea, hence the lack of belief in Hell. Other religions also cite belief in Angels. Among them are Mormonism, Zoroastrianism, various forms of Hinduism, Yazidis, and other related groups in Iraq and surrounding countries.

The fundamental fact is that a good 90% of the world is theistic. Even the Buddhist world, at least in its Tibetan form, is theistic. To deny the existence of God, to espouse open atheism, is to be a small minority. Although I don't dispute your right to do so, I certainly don't believe that the onus is on me to prove my case. The Ontological Argument has already done that.

I don't accept "Creation Science" any more than Richard Dawkins does. Frankly, I consider it a load of crap. Even assuming I accepted a literal interpretation of Genesis (and I am not so sure that I do), the text never claimed to be a frigging science book. Those who take it as such have their head stuck in their ass, in my own opinion.

But to stop me from mentioning Angels and Djinn just because you yourself do not believe in them is simply absurd. What if a Djinn decided to make its presence known, as they are sometimes known to do?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #859 on: October 12, 2014, 03:27:40 PM »
QUOTE from Vaux: "And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels."

Why can't I cite Angels? The Talmud, and the Qur'an both cite Angels and Djinn. Angels are made of Light, and Djinn are made of Smokeless Fire.  Humans are made of Dust (sometimes translated as Clay).

Your refusal to accept either Djinn or Angels does not speak for their non-existence, but rather, for your own ignorance of their existence. Judaism and Islam acknowledge belief in both. Christianity at least acknowledges belief in Angels and rebellious Angels (Demons), as does Islam. Judaism doesn't accept that idea, hence the lack of belief in Hell. Other religions also cite belief in Angels. Among them are Mormonism, Zoroastrianism, various forms of Hinduism, Yazidis, and other related groups in Iraq and surrounding countries.

The fundamental fact is that a good 90% of the world is theistic. Even the Buddhist world, at least in its Tibetan form, is theistic. To deny the existence of God, to espouse open atheism, is to be a small minority. Although I don't dispute your right to do so, I certainly don't believe that the onus is on me to prove my case. The Ontological Argument has already done that.

I don't accept "Creation Science" any more than Richard Dawkins does. Frankly, I consider it a load of crap. Even assuming I accepted a literal interpretation of Genesis (and I am not so sure that I do), the text never claimed to be a frigging science book. Those who take it as such have their head stuck in their ass, in my own opinion.

But to stop me from mentioning Angels and Djinn just because you yourself do not believe in them is simply absurd. What if a Djinn decided to make its presence known, as they are sometimes known to do?
And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.