Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #820 on: October 11, 2014, 04:38:20 AM »
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't. It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit. I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.

It's crazy to reject something that's completely unverifiable?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #821 on: October 11, 2014, 04:57:02 AM »
QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.

I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal. So, how would YOU determine it was God?

And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.

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Offline Shane

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #822 on: October 11, 2014, 05:42:49 AM »
The God argument is bad. The universe can not exist without creation but God can.
Quote from: Rushy
How do you know you weren't literally given metaphorical wings?

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #823 on: October 11, 2014, 06:07:13 AM »
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.

But then what created God? If everything has a beginning, then God must too. If God is eternal, then why can't the Universe also be eternal?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #824 on: October 11, 2014, 12:08:30 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #825 on: October 11, 2014, 01:09:53 PM »
So the big bang and the age of the universe is perfectly solved in your mind, but God is necessary as well? What a strange view you have there.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #826 on: October 11, 2014, 01:15:35 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #827 on: October 11, 2014, 02:08:49 PM »
QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.
Unless it says that prostitutes are perfectly ok to marry, its irrelevant to the discussion or why God would give you foreskin then say "cut it off" a few thousand years after doing so.  Doesn't make much sense now does it?

Quote
I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal.
God can't appear to you as a human, animal, or other physical object?  Wow, your god is pretty limited.  (Appear being not the same as IS.  So Jesus IS a human but God could appear to you looking like an old man who can walk through walls) 

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So, how would YOU determine it was God?
I can't.  To determine someone or something is God, I have to first believe that God exists.  I do not. 
You, however, do.  Hence why I'm asking you.  I mean, if Moses accepted a burning bush with a disembodied voice, why can't you?  I'm sure he didn't think he'd see one either.

Quote
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Except God.  He was totally an accident. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #828 on: October 11, 2014, 05:45:17 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.

QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.
Unless it says that prostitutes are perfectly ok to marry, its irrelevant to the discussion or why God would give you foreskin then say "cut it off" a few thousand years after doing so.  Doesn't make much sense now does it?

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I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal.
God can't appear to you as a human, animal, or other physical object?  Wow, your god is pretty limited.  (Appear being not the same as IS.  So Jesus IS a human but God could appear to you looking like an old man who can walk through walls) 

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So, how would YOU determine it was God?
I can't.  To determine someone or something is God, I have to first believe that God exists.  I do not. 
You, however, do.  Hence why I'm asking you.  I mean, if Moses accepted a burning bush with a disembodied voice, why can't you?  I'm sure he didn't think he'd see one either.

Quote
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Except God.  He was totally an accident. 

God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.

Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.

God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.

As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 05:52:29 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #829 on: October 11, 2014, 06:05:38 PM »
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.

How exactly are you defining the word random?
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #830 on: October 11, 2014, 06:14:13 PM »
>causality is a stupid idea

uhhh lol

Also, the big bang couldn't have been accidental if there isn't a god, because accidents are unexpected or unintentional events and there would have to be a cognitive being with the ability to expect or have the intent for something else in order for an event to be an accident. As for whether or not it was random, it's impossible to know so I don't know why it would be stupid to believe either way. It's not like random events are particularly remarkable, especially since the big bang theoretically had an unlimited amount of time to occur at random - which makes its occurrence given a long enough timespan a near certainty.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #831 on: October 11, 2014, 06:21:35 PM »
You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.
The creation of snowflakes is non-random and non-intelligent.  Just saying.

Quote
God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.
Jews can pray to burning bushes?

Quote
Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.
So did Abraham remove his own foreskin?
Also, isn't that kind of Gay?  I mean, how do jewish men identify other jewish men?  Why they have to look at each other's penises right?
And what about women?  Not allowed to be in a Covenant?
And did God confirm this with anyone else other than Abraham?  If someone came upp to you and said "God came to me as a tree shaking without wind and told me to cut my arm to show servitude."  Would you?

Quote
God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.
Replace God with Universe.  Just because the earliest we have is a big bang, doesn't mean that was the start nor does it mean that this is the only universe to have ever existed.

Quote
As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
So basically you believe God exists but God himself couldn't prove it to you.  No wonder he doesn't talk to you.

Also: Every way in the Torah can be faked using modern technology.  Not sure it applies.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #832 on: October 11, 2014, 06:33:20 PM »
ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
1.
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms:   unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More
antonyms:   systematic
STATISTICS
governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
(of masonry) with stones of irregular size and shape.
2.
informal
odd, unusual, or unexpected.
"I find it impossible to not laugh at such a random guy"

>causality is a stupid idea

uhhh lol

Also, the big bang couldn't have been accidental if there isn't a god, because accidents are unexpected or unintentional events and there would have to be a cognitive being with the ability to expect or have the intent for something else in order for an event to be an accident. As for whether or not it was random, it's impossible to know so I don't know why it would be stupid to believe either way. It's not like random events are particularly remarkable, especially since the big bang theoretically had an unlimited amount of time to occur at random - which makes its occurrence given a long enough timespan a near certainty.

Since NOTHING, not even time, existed before the Big Bang, other than God, there was NO TIME in which something could have occurred randomly.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.
The creation of snowflakes is non-random and non-intelligent.  Just saying.

Quote
God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.
Jews can pray to burning bushes?

Quote
Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.
So did Abraham remove his own foreskin?
Also, isn't that kind of Gay?  I mean, how do jewish men identify other jewish men?  Why they have to look at each other's penises right?
And what about women?  Not allowed to be in a Covenant?
And did God confirm this with anyone else other than Abraham?  If someone came upp to you and said "God came to me as a tree shaking without wind and told me to cut my arm to show servitude."  Would you?

Quote
God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.
Replace God with Universe.  Just because the earliest we have is a big bang, doesn't mean that was the start nor does it mean that this is the only universe to have ever existed.

Quote
As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
So basically you believe God exists but God himself couldn't prove it to you.  No wonder he doesn't talk to you.

Also: Every way in the Torah can be faked using modern technology.  Not sure it applies.

Snowflakes are created by God, each one of them, and are NOT random in any way. There IS an intelligence behind them.

No, Jews cannot pray to burning bushes. Your point is well made. But, it is far more likely that someone would worship a person as a saint or something if they thought it was God, as the Christians do with Jesus. Besides that, we do not believe that the bush was God. We believe that God was in the bush, if you will. But your point is well taken. Suffice it to say that we do not worship any kind of image. Our God is utterly incorporeal.

Abraham actually did circumcise himself. Women are part of the Covenant, but there is no physical indicator of that.

Modern technology did not exist 4500 years ago. Your point?

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #833 on: October 11, 2014, 06:39:48 PM »
ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
1.
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms:   unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More
antonyms:   systematic
STATISTICS
governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
(of masonry) with stones of irregular size and shape.
2.
informal
odd, unusual, or unexpected.
"I find it impossible to not laugh at such a random guy"

ok?

Quote
Since NOTHING, not even time, existed before the Big Bang, other than God, there was NO TIME in which something could have occurred randomly.

[citation needed]

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #834 on: October 11, 2014, 06:40:52 PM »
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 06:44:00 PM by Vauxhall »

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #835 on: October 11, 2014, 06:45:23 PM »
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #836 on: October 11, 2014, 06:48:28 PM »
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #837 on: October 11, 2014, 06:51:35 PM »
Is Jew gold worth more than plain gold?

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #838 on: October 11, 2014, 06:59:16 PM »
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #839 on: October 11, 2014, 07:00:01 PM »
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Maybe this will help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest