Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #760 on: October 07, 2014, 11:27:43 PM »
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Some of us also practice Agnostic-atheist-new-age-Christianism.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #761 on: October 07, 2014, 11:43:25 PM »
And by 'here' I meant Australia. Most people here are atheist heathens.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #762 on: October 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM »
Ok, let me break it down for you. Anybody who can't figure out the difference between FGM and standard male circumcision can be clearly defined as anti-Semitic.
So ignorance of medical procedures is anti-jew now?  Damn.  At this rate simply being non-jew will be anti-jew.

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Anyone who would illegalise one of the primary rituals of our Faith can be defined as an anti-Semite.

Not all who are circumsized are Jews.  Therefore it is not Jew specific and can not be considered an attack on your faith.  Much like making alcohol illegal isn't an attack on communion.  (Wine is the blood of Jesus and all that)
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I don't know how you get around either of those two things. Ergo, you are posting things that are anti-Semitic. Ergo, you are an anti-Semite. I am not trying to insult you, I am just defining what you are.
I was wrong, the next step is to label anything YOU don't understand as anti-jew.  I'd hate to be an astrophysicist in Israel right now.

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I don't care whether you respond to me or not. That sounds like a personal issue if you ask me. By not responding to me, you have acknowledged the superiority of my argument. Thank you. Have a pleasant day.
For someone who says they don't care what others think, you seem to be very sensitive to what we say.  Almost as though your trying to prove your superiority yet can't understand why everyone isn't agreeing with you.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #763 on: October 08, 2014, 01:48:32 AM »
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #764 on: October 08, 2014, 04:30:15 AM »
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?

The rest of what you said wasn't worth a response. This, however, is a worthwhile question. Whatever I may think of the origin of the word, the fact remains that, in the English language, and in several others, the word "anti-Semite" has come to be accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a person who despises Jews. It doesn't matter that the term is not scientific. Its just like the fact that we still tend to divide the human species into races, even though most of us know that race itself has no meaningful relevance from an anthropological or scientific point of view.

The fact that the term "anti-Semite" refers to a person who hates Jews, even if that person is an Arab, and is therefore a Semite, is not my problem. Welcome to the joys of the language.

QUOTE: "MYTH

“Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic as they are themselves Semites.”

FACT

The term “anti-Semite” was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 “Anti-Semitism” has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: “Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews” and “Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.”2

The claim that Arabs as “Semites” cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

“The Arab world is the last bastion of unbridled, unashamed, unhidden and unbelievable anti-Semitism. Hitlerian myths get published in the popular press as incontrovertible truths. The Holocaust either gets minimized or denied....How the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel when Israelis are portrayed as the devil incarnate is hard to figure out.”

— Columnist Richard Cohen3

1Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton &Co., 1986), p. 81.
2Oxford English Dictionary; Webster’s Third International Dictionary.
3Washington Post, (October 30, 2001)."


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n1
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 04:34:11 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #765 on: October 08, 2014, 04:31:35 AM »
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?

No.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #766 on: October 08, 2014, 05:10:11 AM »
QUOTE: "Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?"

"No." END QUOTE.

This is an interesting discussion. What exactly constitutes "Religious" vs "Observant" vs "Spiritual" vs anything else, for that matter? Lets look at the three words I've quoted specifically.

Religious: People normally associate this word with a person who belongs to an established denomination (in the US, Christianity, but it can apply to non-Christian beliefs as well) of a Faith, and who observes its beliefs, and follows its doctrinal rules strictly. Often times, these are people who pray in response to issues, and they expect a response from God as a result of their religiosity. So, in the case of a religious Jew, if his car goes off a bridge, and he prays to survive, and in fact does, he will account it to prayers answered due to his religiosity.

Observant: This word generally is associated with people, particularly Jews, who observe the rituals of their Faith with extreme punctuality, not because they expect a response from God, but because they have been told to do so by the Deity, irrespective of His response or lack thereof. Therefore, if the Observant Jew goes off the bridge, and lives to tell about it, he probably won't choose to account it to God. In other words, he believes in God, but is hardly arrogant enough to think that God plans his day around his troubles. He will account his living to the fact that he managed to get the door open fast enough to get the hell out of the damned car before it sank.

Spiritual: This describes a person who believes in a Higher Power of some sort, but essentially creates his own belief structure. It is very hard to categorise this person, because there are as many types of "spirituality" as their are "spiritual persons". The word can be used in a more orthodox sense to refer to the spirituality of the Catholic Church, or Tibetan Buddhists, or Sunni Muslims, or the Jews, or what have you, but for the purpose of this discussion, we will use the first definition, in opposition to the first two words above. If the spiritual person goes off the bridge and lives, he will probably thank the divine spark within him for keeping his spirit alive to do more good for others that much longer, or some such thing as that. It differs with each "spiritual person".

In a nutshell, there you have it, friends.


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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #767 on: October 08, 2014, 07:13:46 AM »
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?

The rest of what you said wasn't worth a response.
I'm glad you admit the superiority of my argument.  Thanks. :)

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This, however, is a worthwhile question. Whatever I may think of the origin of the word, the fact remains that, in the English language, and in several others, the word "anti-Semite" has come to be accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a person who despises Jews. It doesn't matter that the term is not scientific. Its just like the fact that we still tend to divide the human species into races, even though most of us know that race itself has no meaningful relevance from an anthropological or scientific point of view.

The fact that the term "anti-Semite" refers to a person who hates Jews, even if that person is an Arab, and is therefore a Semite, is not my problem. Welcome to the joys of the language.

QUOTE: "MYTH

“Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic as they are themselves Semites.”

FACT

The term “anti-Semite” was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 “Anti-Semitism” has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: “Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews” and “Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.”2

The claim that Arabs as “Semites” cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

“The Arab world is the last bastion of unbridled, unashamed, unhidden and unbelievable anti-Semitism. Hitlerian myths get published in the popular press as incontrovertible truths. The Holocaust either gets minimized or denied....How the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel when Israelis are portrayed as the devil incarnate is hard to figure out.”

— Columnist Richard Cohen3

1Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton &Co., 1986), p. 81.
2Oxford English Dictionary; Webster’s Third International Dictionary.
3Washington Post, (October 30, 2001)."


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n1
So if anti-semite eventually came to mean the proper term (anyone whose language root is Semite) then will you call yourself anti-semite as you hate Palestinians who are part of this group?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #768 on: October 08, 2014, 11:13:15 AM »
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #769 on: October 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM »
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Ever thought about canceling your membership? I did it a couple of years ago.
The Mastery.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #770 on: October 08, 2014, 11:21:07 AM »
I don't remember if I'm a Christian. I didn't do communion at school and I'm not sure if I was baptised church of England.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #771 on: October 08, 2014, 11:24:52 AM »
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Ever thought about canceling your membership? I did it a couple of years ago.

I've thought about it, but I don't really care enough to go through with it.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #772 on: October 08, 2014, 12:48:25 PM »
Those State Churches can be a real bitch. You are automatically a member unless you take the time and trouble to say you are not. At least in Scandinavia. The English and the Scottish Churches are not that way, to my knowledge. But the Lutheran State Churches  of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland can b e a pain to get out of, because legally you are born into them.

LORD DAVE, actually, no, you have no argument. Hence, no need to respond.

Regarding your proposal on the evolution of the word "anti-Semite", that is also a non-argument, since the word is highly unlikely to ever make such an evolution. Ergo, I am not going to have to worry about it. I already despise "Palestinians", and have never denied it. That, in present day parlance, makes me anti-"Palestinian", and possibly anti-Arab, although I have less of a problem with non-"Palestinian" Arabs.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise the "Palestinians". The only reason "Palestinians" have any support at all in the world is because Arabs hate Jews more than they despise the "Palestinians". But if the Jews did not exist, no self-respecting Arab would want anything to do with a "Palestinian", who at the best are classified as half-breeds by other Arabs, given their Canaanite heritage, and at worst are basically considered to be lower than the dust. I'm not trying to be insulting or nasty. I'm just telling it like it is.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #773 on: October 08, 2014, 12:59:28 PM »
LORD DAVE, actually, no, you have no argument. Hence, no need to respond.
Denial won't help you in the long run.

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Regarding your proposal on the evolution of the word "anti-Semite", that is also a non-argument, since the word is highly unlikely to ever make such an evolution. Ergo, I am not going to have to worry about it. I already despise "Palestinians", and have never denied it. That, in present day parlance, makes me anti-"Palestinian", and possibly anti-Arab, although I have less of a problem with non-"Palestinian" Arabs.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise the "Palestinians". The only reason "Palestinians" have any support at all in the world is because Arabs hate Jews more than they despise the "Palestinians". But if the Jews did not exist, no self-respecting Arab would want anything to do with a "Palestinian", who at the best are classified as half-breeds by other Arabs, given their Canaanite heritage, and at worst are basically considered to be lower than the dust. I'm not trying to be insulting or nasty. I'm just telling it like it is.
Language changes often so its quite likely that the meaning of the word will change.  Hopefully before you die.

Also: why is it OK to be anti-muslim but jot anti-jew? 
And: do you feels Jews are given special treatment because of the holocaust and if so, is that fair?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #774 on: October 08, 2014, 01:34:41 PM »
Its ok to be anti-Muslim because they have a habit of blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like something. We don't. Neither do the Christians. As for the question regarding the Holocaust, I won't deny, sometimes we ARE given a pass because of it, the same way Negroes in the USA are given a pass because of slavery.

Is that fair? Well, it depends what you are being given a pass for. If you are being given a pass for bad behaviour, then no, it is not fair, and I shall acknowledge that some Jews do act like alter kackers and then excuse it on grounds of the victim mentality. My response to that is, "Dude! Grow the fuck up! The Holocaust ended 69 years ago. Quit whining."

Now, what about the nation of Israel? I only have a few minutes before I have to leave, so let me make this quick. The State of Israel is NOT perfect. One can, and should, be willing to criticise, or listen to constructive criticisms of the various policies of the State of Israel without automatically screaming "anti-Semitism!".

HOWEVER, and this is key, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and criticism for its own sake. To criticise Israel constructively is once thing. To criticise it because it is Israel is something yet again, and that IS anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.

Israel is, facts be known, one of the kindest occupying powers in the history of the world. I challenge anybody to find me an occupying power that would allow the occupied to criticise the leaders of the occupiers, to sue in the occupier's supreme court, to request review of any action the occupying military takes, etc. You will be hard-pressed to find any occupying power in the world other than Israel that permits this.

I challenge anyone to find me a more moral army than Israel's. Israel does everything it can to try to get civilians out of the way, by dropping leaflets, by phone calls, text messages, roof knocking... find me another army that does the same.

Now, is the IDF perfect? NO! When it fucks up, should it be called out? YES! I think every Jew, Israeli and otherwise, would agree. But all told, Israel as a nation, and its army, are a helluva lot more moral than just about any other country you are going to find.

So, do some Jews demand unfair treatment because of the Holocaust? Yes. Is that unfair? Damn straight it is, and they should learn to shut the fuck up, because they make us ALL look bad. But we are NOT all that way. I have to go. I'll be back later today. See you then.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #775 on: October 08, 2014, 02:15:24 PM »
Its ok to be anti-Muslim because they have a habit of blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like something.
So it's ok to be anti-x if they do things you don't like?  What if they started blowing up say... nazis?  You'd have to still be anti-muslim right?  Because they're blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like Nazis?  Or maybe Palistinians?  What if they blew them up and took hostages?  Wouldn't you have to still be anti-muslim?  And what about American Muslims who don't blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?  (and most muslims at that)  I'm only guessing but based on what I see in suicide bombings, mortar attacks, and active combat units, I'd wager the total amount of Muslims who blow shit up and take hostages isn't even reaching the millions yet.  Are you anti-muslim because a minority blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?

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We don't. Neither do the Christians.
Uuuuhhh.....
I'm pretty sure Israel (Jews) have blown up plenty of things they don't like.  Most notably in the Arab world.  Not sure they left hostages though but they do have POWs.  Does that count?


As for the question regarding the Holocaust, I won't deny, sometimes we ARE given a pass because of it, the same way Negroes in the USA are given a pass because of slavery.

Quote
Is that fair? Well, it depends what you are being given a pass for. If you are being given a pass for bad behaviour, then no, it is not fair, and I shall acknowledge that some Jews do act like alter kackers and then excuse it on grounds of the victim mentality. My response to that is, "Dude! Grow the fuck up! The Holocaust ended 69 years ago. Quit whining."
What is ok to be given a pass for?

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Now, what about the nation of Israel? I only have a few minutes before I have to leave, so let me make this quick. The State of Israel is NOT perfect. One can, and should, be willing to criticise, or listen to constructive criticisms of the various policies of the State of Israel without automatically screaming "anti-Semitism!".

HOWEVER, and this is key, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and criticism for its own sake. To criticise Israel constructively is once thing. To criticise it because it is Israel is something yet again, and that IS anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.

Israel is, facts be known, one of the kindest occupying powers in the history of the world. I challenge anybody to find me an occupying power that would allow the occupied to criticise the leaders of the occupiers, to sue in the occupier's supreme court, to request review of any action the occupying military takes, etc. You will be hard-pressed to find any occupying power in the world other than Israel that permits this.

I challenge anyone to find me a more moral army than Israel's. Israel does everything it can to try to get civilians out of the way, by dropping leaflets, by phone calls, text messages, roof knocking... find me another army that does the same.

Now, is the IDF perfect? NO! When it fucks up, should it be called out? YES! I think every Jew, Israeli and otherwise, would agree. But all told, Israel as a nation, and its army, are a helluva lot more moral than just about any other country you are going to find.

So, do some Jews demand unfair treatment because of the Holocaust? Yes. Is that unfair? Damn straight it is, and they should learn to shut the fuck up, because they make us ALL look bad. But we are NOT all that way. I have to go. I'll be back later today. See you then.
So Israel IS a conquer and occupying nation.  Gotcha.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #776 on: October 08, 2014, 09:51:42 PM »
QUOTE: "So it's ok to be anti-x if they do things you don't like?  What if they started blowing up say... nazis?  You'd have to still be anti-muslim right?  Because they're blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like Nazis?  Or maybe Palistinians?  What if they blew them up and took hostages?  Wouldn't you have to still be anti-muslim?  And what about American Muslims who don't blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?  (and most muslims at that)  I'm only guessing but based on what I see in suicide bombings, mortar attacks, and active combat units, I'd wager the total amount of Muslims who blow shit up and take hostages isn't even reaching the millions yet.  Are you anti-muslim because a minority blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?"

Ok. First, Muslims don't dislike Nazis. In fact, one of the best-selling books in many Muslim countries for years has been Mein Kampf. 2nd, they don't like Jews. Their Qur'an tells then NOT to like Jews. Those are the facts of life. And the majority don't have the cajones to force the minority to STOP blowing shit up and taking hostages. Ergo, you have to treat them all alike.

Jews only blow shit up in the Arab world when the Arab world attacks them first, or plans on attacking them first (as in the Six Day War). Israel fights defensive wars. They have no designs on other countries' territory. POW's do not count as hostages, since they are taken in accordance with the laws of war.

I never denied that Israel has conquered and occupied territory. It is their right. The Land of Israel belongs to the Jews. The "Palestinians" have no rights there at all, and should be forcibly deported. Those who refuse to leave peacefully should be forced out at gunpoint. Greater Israel SHOULD be conquered, and occupied. There is no question there. Nor have I ever suggested otherwise. You can't be accused of having designs on another country's territory when its your country that was stolen from you and you are taking back what is rightfully yours.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:56:19 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #777 on: October 08, 2014, 10:50:18 PM »
Ownership of land is construct of man. To insist that Jews somehow own a section of arid desert because 'holy text' is flat out retarded.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #778 on: October 08, 2014, 11:00:06 PM »
Well, at least you can spell the word ''retarded" correctly. That's a start. Frankly, it has less to do with the text, and more to do with the fact that the Jews took the land from the Canaanites. The Bible's history is more or less accurate in terms of the Israelites entering Canaan and taking the land from the people who lived there before. The people who lived in Canaan, and were the ancestors of modern "Palestinians" (according to "Palestinians" themselves, not me), were savage animals that engaged in human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and other social ills that the Israelites wiped out, thereby doing the world a service. Now, if you take my perspective (and that of most scholars, for that matter), "Palestinians" are a blend of Canaanite and Arab ancestry. The Canaanites deserved what they got, and still would. The Arabs are invaders in a land that is not theis, so they have to leave. So long, goodbye, auf wiedershen, etc. Have a good life, but don't have it in Greater Israel, thank you very much.

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #779 on: October 08, 2014, 11:01:28 PM »
Why don't the opposing groups just go halfsies on the land?