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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #640 on: October 01, 2014, 12:32:29 AM »
New York most likely tolerates such a barbaric town for the same reason Europe tolerates Muslim communities. The authorities fear retributive backlash in the form of "ow, my religious rights!" even though it's an obvious case of the religion pushing on other people, not the opposite. And Yaakov, you can't say "well, just don't go there." This is a civilized country where anywhere one goes, they will (or at least should) receive their rights. No religious text trumps federal law.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #641 on: October 01, 2014, 03:38:52 AM »
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it. It is not in the constitution one way or the other. Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

Wait. So these Americans are native to their town and therefore can't morally be deported from it, but Palestinians are not native to their land and can morally be deported from it? How is that in any way logical?

It doesn't really matter if the person who threw the rock thought it was moral. Moral relativism is bullshit. It doesn't really matter whether or not Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Any hypothetical people throwing stones at women for wearing revealing clothes should be imprisoned for attempted (or, if they actually kill the person, 1st degree) murder and probably hate crimes. I'd be upset if they got less than 10 years.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #642 on: October 01, 2014, 04:49:58 AM »
New York most likely tolerates such a barbaric town for the same reason Europe tolerates Muslim communities. The authorities fear retributive backlash in the form of "ow, my religious rights!" even though it's an obvious case of the religion pushing on other people, not the opposite. And Yaakov, you can't say "well, just don't go there." This is a civilized country where anywhere one goes, they will (or at least should) receive their rights. No religious text trumps federal law.

Like I said, no Jew outside of KJ likes to admit KJ even exists to non-Jews. The fact that I am even willing to do so in this forum makes me unusual by most Jewish standards. KJ is part of the family. That doesn't mean we have to LIKE it being a part of the family. They take being Jewish a little further than is necessary, by all counts.

I mean, look. I used to travel to the Jewish part of Nashville. It was 85% Jewish. People respected the Sabbath insofar as most places were not open Saturdays, and those that were were delicate about it. Most groceries offered Kosher food, and made a point to keep non-kosher stuff out of the way. Most places of work would never have attempted to compel a Jew to work on the Sabbath. The Synagogues were all respected, and had places of honour in the section of town.

It was great. And ten minutes away by car, you were back in Gentile Nashville land. And everybody got along fine. KJ deliberately seems to intentionally stoke anger among Gentiles. I'm not sure how much of that is the fault of KJ, and  how much of that is due to the impatience of the Gentile population. Frankly, I think its a little of both.

I mean, lets be straight with each other. A shtetl, which is what KJ is, exists so that the Jews living there can more easily function without giving discomfort to non-Jews. If I am the kind of Jew that needs to live a strict, almost cloistered life among my fellow Jews, without contact with the non-Jewish world, speaking only Yiddish and Hebrew (or mostly such), and never stepping foot outside the Jewish world, spending all my time working for my Jewish employer and praying at the Shul, and studying in Yeshiva, then would it not be better if I lived with other Jews?

Would it not be easier for you? As a non-Jew, do you really want to live among such people, who would make your lives so difficult? If I work for you, and I demand my religious rights, to pray three times a day at work, to have all the Jewish holidays off from work, to demand a separate kitchen in the breakroom so that I can eat kosher, aren't you going to welcome the chance for me to live elsewhere in the state?

I'm not that extreme. I consider myself fairly traditional, but by no means to that level. Granted, I don't work. I don't know whether I could work or not in the Gentile world. As a professor, maybe. I have before. But a normal 9-5 job? Where I would have to ask permission to pray three times a day? I don't know. Where I would need permission for my holidays? Well, that would be a bit of a problem. I suppose it would depend. So, being on disability, and being an academic and writer may be a blessing at the moment, although I eventually hope to make money from writing, and get off the disability.

Anyway, I think you see my point. I have to run at the moment, as its time for bed. But consider the above before you judge KJ too harshly. See you all tomorrow.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #643 on: October 01, 2014, 08:19:14 AM »
They bus their people to the nearest mall once a week.
They buy a lot of stuff.
Then return much of it the next week.

They're rude, angry, and constantly attempting to gain more things such as water.  m.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140409/NEWS/140409680&template=wapart


And annexing territory.
www.co.orange.ny.us/content/124/1362/16386/16492.aspx
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #644 on: October 01, 2014, 09:56:29 AM »
If KJ is poor, does that mean they don't have any Jew Gold?
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #645 on: October 01, 2014, 11:11:24 AM »
If KJ is poor, does that mean they don't have any Jew Gold?
KJ is not technically poor.  The people who live there are poor but the township is not.  This is because, as I understand it, the township owns all the money the people generate.  Or at least most of it.

This allows them to maintain food stamps and welfare status while allowing the town to have enough money to casuAlly build a $45 million dollar water pipe to take water from two towns AND enough money to bump the pipe size up after the project was approved.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #646 on: October 01, 2014, 12:02:19 PM »
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with them attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, then don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 01:32:15 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #647 on: October 01, 2014, 01:09:33 PM »
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with theme attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, thebn don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.
There is no if.  My wife saw them every week at Macy's.

And if KJ has so many people on welfare, why should they be allowed to increase their population so much?  They should just move to Israel.  Or better yet, be relocated to Israel with 6 months pay.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #648 on: October 01, 2014, 01:12:13 PM »
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with theme attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, thebn don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.

No it's not that simple. There are laws in the USA don't you know. Just because a bunch of barbaric fundamentalists don't care does not mean they are exempt.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #649 on: October 01, 2014, 01:42:22 PM »
Well, from what I am reading, it sounds like they are attempting to follow at least form of law in the process of annexation. Obviously. They would have to be. It would be rather hard to just walk into a place and take it in this country, although in other countries it could be done. Now, as to whether they are following the spirit of things, I suppose that depends on who you talk to. But the very fact that they ARE American citizens means you can't deport them. "Palestinians" are not Israeli citizens. They can and should be deported. Of course, that does not speak for the 22% of Arabs within the Green Line who are, and who I would be inclined to let remain in Israel as long as they took an oath of obedience to the Israeli State, many of whom have already done so.

So there are very few similarities between "Palestinians" who are NOT citizens of Israel and residents of KJ who ARE citizens of the USA. Even if they do behave badly, and I have seen no proof that they do per se, they are still operating at least under form of law. But, as I have said before, they have managed to get themselves quite a reputation, I know that, even in the Jewish community. Someone said awhile ago that if I had heard of KJ, I either lived in the area, or they were quite (in)famous. Well, truth be told, its the latter. I live in Iowa.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #650 on: October 01, 2014, 01:46:15 PM »
Palestinians were citizens of where they were living until it was taken from them no?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #651 on: October 01, 2014, 03:01:11 PM »
Ah, not really. Egypt controlled the Gaza, and Jordan controlled the West Bank. These territories were taken by Israel in wars started by Arabs, and lost by them. At a later time, both Egypt and Jordan gave up claims to both areas. According to the much vaunted international law, when a country gives up territory in a formal way, the obligation of said country is to allow its citizens to move into the territory it still controls. So, for example, if the United States were to formally surrender control of California to California itself or to any other entity, any American citizen would have to right to move into American territory still claimed by the United States. Neither Egypt nor Jordan permitted the "Palestinians" to do that. Therefore, the "Palestinians" became stateless, since both the Gaza and the West Bank were under, and in the case of the West Bank still is under, the military administration of Israel. They did NOT summarily gain the right to independence, which they had NEVER claimed before. In fact, "Palestine" had always claimed to be a part of Syria throughout most of its history until the establishment of the State of Israel.

As stateless persons, "Palestinians" are citizens of nowhere and nothing, and have no claim to a nationality. International law gives them that right, which means that Egypt and Jordan are both obligated to fulfill their duties, and by not doing so, both nations are derelict in their duties. That may be unfortunate for the people involved, but it is hardly Israel's problem. Since it has been MADE Israel's problem, Israel has no choice but to deal with the problem in a military manner.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #652 on: October 01, 2014, 04:32:43 PM »
I don't think you should start citing International Law to support Israeli claims. It has not looked favorably on it.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #653 on: October 01, 2014, 04:36:46 PM »
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.
I don't think that's what native means.  How can you be native to a place where you weren't born?  ???
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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #654 on: October 01, 2014, 08:24:12 PM »
One question that's been bugging me for some time about Jews...

How many Jews does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #655 on: October 01, 2014, 08:34:20 PM »
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #656 on: October 01, 2014, 08:39:05 PM »
Wow! Chill.
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Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #657 on: October 01, 2014, 08:45:24 PM »
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

YHWH called. He's disappointed in all the foul language you've been using. He will flood 4 cities because of this.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #658 on: October 01, 2014, 09:20:48 PM »
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

Relax man.  You previously rejected the rulings of international law when they were against Israel, and now choose to hold them up when they are against Palestinians, this is hypocrisy at its finest.  You just can't have it both ways is all I am saying.  So although you may think you made me look stupid, I dont think anyone agrees with you (except perhaps KJers, but they dont have interwebs I imagine), and you are being pretty uncivil.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #659 on: October 01, 2014, 11:16:08 PM »
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 12:25:00 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »